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At 7/27/03 05:00 PM, _crossbreed_ wrote: Some people say that Kim Jong Il is an even more evil and satanic dictator than Hussein even though he never mass-mudered his own people or even fits in the description of a dictatorship.

Kim Jong Il didn't mass murder his people? you're kidding right? please tell me you are. when you use your political rivals on posts and use them for bayonet practice, i think that's what we call murder.

At 7/20/03 01:46 PM, AnarchyPwnguin wrote: The whole North Korea issue will fizzle out as soon as a democrat is in office and exchanges aid for abolishing weapons programs. Then a republican will get in office, cancel the aid, the weapons program will continue and we'll have tension again.

More like this: democrat gets in office, gives aid, NK promises to stop its weapon program, but continues it secretly; democrat fails to keep intelligence and lets this slide by. Other large nations (hint hint China) send spies to US and steal important nuclear secrets (due to poor security kept by democrat), which are leaked out to NK via China. Republican gets in office and increases intelligence and realizes NK has produced nuclear weapons. Democrats blame republican for production of these weapons.

OHH WAIT, that already happened.

Repeat what you said, except this time say it for my scenario. 1992-2000. Thank you Clinton.

At 7/28/03 03:33 PM, _crossbreed_ wrote: People seem to forget that a shitload of other countries already have nuclear weapons, why single North Korea out?

Probably because they have their nuclear weapons aimed towards Tokyo.

At 7/29/03 08:09 PM, alejandro1 wrote:

At 7/20/03 01:46 PM, AnarchyPwnguin wrote: The whole North Korea issue will fizzle out as soon as a democrat is in office and exchanges aid for abolishing weapons programs. Then a republican will get in office, cancel the aid, the weapons program will continue and we'll have tension again.

More like this: democrat gets in office, gives aid, NK promises to stop its weapon program, but continues it secretly; democrat fails to keep intelligence and lets this slide by. Other large nations (hint hint China) send spies to US and steal important nuclear secrets (due to poor security kept by democrat), which are leaked out to NK via China. Republican gets in office and increases intelligence and realizes NK has produced nuclear weapons. Democrats blame republican for production of these weapons.

That was the point that I was getting at.

The Democrats are trying to do the job one way, that will probably work if they could do it completly, uninterrupted.

The Republicans are trying to do the job another way, that would probably work if they could do it competely, and uninterrupted.

Here's the problem North Korea is an economically ruined nation. They don't have the money or power to have a humane adequate quality of life. The result is that they turn to the only profitable industry they have, arms manufacturing, distributing, and selling. Probably any information on how to create new arms as well.

Obviously without a stable economy they have to make inhumane work conditions to create their weapons. The Government which is strongly in disfavor due to inhumane conditions puts even more inhumane conditions on the nation to remain in power.

How can this be solved?

1 - The liberal way

Improve the economic and humanitarian situation in Korea gradually, accepting trade-offs in de-arming Korea with every progression.

If the Economic situation is relieved then so can the humanitarian situation. The result would be that if Korea become an authentic nation, it could much more easily be critized and corrected if it begins to slump back into Inhumane despotism. The other result would be that it would be the first time a Capitalist and Communist society have ever co-existed amicably. That's definitly a concept that many people in both communist and capitalist societies do not want to accept, even if it is a viable option. Eventually North Korea would probably move more towards democracy, if not capitalism, especially as Kim Jung Ill's power loosens.

The only requirement for this to work is for both America and North Korea to desire to live in Harmony. Certainly during the Clinton administration Albright was extended hospitality, and friendlyness towards America. At that point Kim Jung Ill was authentic, and possibly he still will be. When Korea recieved foreign aid, most of it went to the humanitarian concerns where they said they would put it, unlike with Russia currently (and in the past 10 years) and unlike in Iraq. We, as Americans or citizens of democratic nations, want peace with North Korea. North Korean citizens want peace with America. All we have to do is get leaders who openly advocate realtions between our nations.

2 - The conservative way

Wage economic attrition on North Korea

Worked for the Soviet Union, isn't working with Cuba and here's why

The Soviet Union was blocked off from the rest of the world, if it failed then it sank. Cuba is not cut off. Cuba trades freely with most nations. If Cuba fails, it's sugar industry can sustain it, it's cigar industry can sustain it. Forced labor alone cannot sustain a nation, Koreas only sustaining industry is weapons development.

The Convservative plan is to cut off Korea from all economic development, and then ruin it's capablity to create weapons. Without any economic ability Korea, it's economy, and it's people will starve into a collapsing government.

Korea is a cold war like with the SU, but instead of with the military it's with economies. Korea will either blow up in pressure, or collapse in it.

This way will work if Korea is starved into submission.

Here's the way things are going.

When a Democrat attempts his plan the Koreans revitalize their economy just enough to stay affloat, but not enough to improve their condition. They continue their weapons just enough to sustain their industry once their Democrat is out of office.

When a Republican attempts to straggle Korea, they eak out just enough of an earning from their weapons development to sustain their government, while their humanitarian situation degrees rapidly.

Both plans fail, because both plans cancel each other out.

It's not Americas job to solve Koreas problem alone. It's everyones problem. No matter what country or political afflitiation you are, it's your job as a fellow human being to help others in desperation. We need to solve the Humanitarian problem in Korea, if that's by strangling the government into submission, and re-working their government then that's one way. It hasn't worked with Russia very well, but if we did it right it could work. Or we could try to improve their economical and humanitarian situation by direct aid, and opening realations to their government.

Both options work, what we're doing now isn't working.

We need to put aside what political affilitation we are, what nationality we are, and what our philosophies are, then we need to decide on a soulution and execute it.

Otherwise we'll slowely wither democracy into a failing concept, beating our partisan ideas into just enough waste to keep the world stagnate. Time is against us. If we (American, North Korean, and any other citizen of the world) don't fix it, then Nuclear weapons will.

At 7/29/03 07:28 PM, mysecondstar wrote:

Kim Jong Il didn't mass murder his people?

No.

you're kidding right?

No.

please tell me you are.

...No.

when you use your political rivals on posts and use them for bayonet practice, i think that's what we call mass murder.

First of all, stabbing your politcal rivals isn't mass murder of your own people. Mass murder of your own people is killing thousands at a time.

Second of all, THAT NEVER HAPPENED!!!
Please don't make stuff up. k? thanks.

I think North Korea is going to end up like the old USSR.

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!
JIM JONG IS A GOOD GUY!
AMERICA IS A FACIST STATE!

Nevermind the fact that JONG has KILLED thousands of his own. Nevermind the fact that they STARVE while JONG lives like a king. Nevermind that JONG and his government are the reason why the DMZ is needed. Nevermind that he jails people for several years in small, cramped prisons for trying to LEAVE the country.

Oh, and America is the source of all evil. HAPPY HAPPY DAY!

And how exactly does that make him a threat to other countries?

By the way, those things you listed can apply to a countless number of third-world countries.

And I'd like to see your sources. :)

At 7/30/03 01:08 PM, _crossbreed_ wrote: And how exactly does that make him a threat to other countries?

Apparently you never read the newspaper or watch the news. Try it sometime.

By the way, those things you listed can apply to a countless number of third-world countries.

Does that make Jong any better? Thought not.

And I'd like to see your sources. :)

heh. I'm on my way out, but I promise to come back later with info. ; ]

If each and every country killed their citizens, would you say that they're not wrong because a lot of them are doing it?
Frequency doesn't matter. We're discussing whether or not he did it, not "lots of other third world countries".

At 7/30/03 05:50 PM, Ted_Easton wrote: If each and every country killed their citizens, would you say that they're not wrong because a lot of them are doing it?
Frequency doesn't matter. We're discussing whether or not he did it, not "lots of other third world countries".

Kim Jong-il will forever be a problem in the world simply because of his pure, unmatched spite for all allies of the United States and the United States itself. I would never count Kim Jong-il out of the running to actually attempt launching a nuclear weapon on the United States' West Coast.

At 7/29/03 10:12 PM, AnarchyPwnguin wrote: Otherwise we'll slowely wither democracy into a failing concept, beating our partisan ideas into just enough waste to keep the world stagnate. Time is against us.

Hey Anarchy Penguin, I like your ideas. You try to actually bring productive ideas rather than mindlessly picking a side, and then trying to find internet sources to protect your decision rather than thinking it through logically in order to find a soulution.

Thank you Anarchy Penguin, I appreciate you too. I like how you respond to the things I say, especially how you keep it in context. Say, it sure is good that people like us can meet and have a rational discussion.

If we (American, North Korean, and any other citizen of the world) don't fix it, then Nuclear weapons will.

Did we decide on this soultion yet?

It's funny when George W. Bush slaps a country with the "evil" label and everyone assumes that country is a threat to the world and if they're not quickly blown up, another 9/11 is going to take place. Of course, other countries are worse than Iraq and North Korea, but they're "democracies" and are supported by America.

At 7/31/03 02:13 AM, BaKsHi wrote: so what would you suggest? our current democracies aren't good enough? what kind of democracry do you envision?

By "democracy' I actually meant capitalism because America has a tendency of having its head turned when a capitalist state has gross violations of human rights abuse and is usually even supported by America. On the other hand, do you remember the non-existing communist threat? Ooooooh, Russians will invade and make you all slaves. Or in this case, North Koreans will invade you and make you all slaves.

Look at South America, Dictatorships that engage in commercial trade with America are encouraged and when a collectivist movement surges, America isn't affraid to wipe out those "communist threats". Go ask Che Guevara, he'll tell you. Oh no he can't, he was executed by US-trained bolivian soldiers.

I promise you, America will never take direct action against one of their business partners because of human rights abuse. They never have and never will.

Though the Iraq deal needed to be taken care of anyways, no matter what the situation, I feel N. Korea is a worse threat, and we'll just have to wait and see what happens with them.

At 8/2/03 03:59 AM, 70TA wrote: I feel N. Korea is a worse threat, and we'll just have to wait and see what happens with them.

I'm curious, how do you percieve North Korea as a threat?

At 8/2/03 01:59 PM, _crossbreed_ wrote:

I'm curious, how do you percieve North Korea as a threat?

They have a huge arsenal of nukes, and they brag about having them, threatening to use them against us, and brag about getting more materials from douche-bag Iran and pals so they can make more. Now that's threatening.

At 8/3/03 02:58 AM, 70TA wrote:

They have a huge arsenal of nukes,

No they don't.

and they brag about having them,

No they don't.

threatening to use them against us,

No they don't.

and brag about getting more materials from douche-bag Iran and pals so they can make more.

No they don't.

Now that's threatening.

Not really

If we should have attacked anyone, it should have been North Korea.

At 8/3/03 03:58 PM, Rancorman wrote: If we should have attacked anyone, it should have been North Korea.

I love that you used the word "attacked" when America attacks another country, it's just another ordinary day. But when another country attacks America, all Hell breaks loose and the Armaggedon is unleashed and Judgement day is delivered by weapons of mass liberation.

At 8/3/03 03:58 PM, Rancorman wrote: If we should have attacked anyone, it should have been North Korea.

If the US attacked every country that its leaders didn't like, then WWIII is on the doorstep.

At 8/3/03 03:57 PM, _crossbreed_ wrote: No they don't.

How do you know they don't? Haven't you seen the footage on TV about them confirming that they do have nukes, they are building them and geting more supplies for them? And they don't look too happy when they show them either.

I don't know what to think over North Korea, they kind of make me nervous.

At 8/4/03 11:56 PM, JGal21189 wrote: I don't know what to think over North Korea, they kind of make me nervous.

Ahh fuck, let's just shoot 'em. at least it will get it over quicker.

At 8/4/03 12:41 PM, 70TA wrote:

At 8/3/03 03:57 PM, _crossbreed_ wrote: No they don't.

How do you know they don't? Haven't you seen the footage on TV about them confirming that they do have nukes, they are building them and geting more supplies for them? And they don't look too happy when they show them either.

Because what happened with the other communist states that had Nukes? America left them alone. Korea wants to be left alone. Nothing more, nothing else.
Bluffing that they have nuclear warheads would put a stop to America's war on communism.