Rape

[JMHX]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Recently I had a discussion about the War in Iraq which somehow switched tracks into Abortion, which led into the touchy subject of rape. I will try my best to not offend anyone who may have been the victim of such a crime. The girl whom I was speaking to, an Anti-Abortionist, said that if a woman got pregnant, it was her duty to carry the child to term, a duty brought on by god. Now, I stated god should have no place in the court decisions on abortion, to which she said "the government should ban abortion and force the woman to carry her child to term."

Question 1: What are your views on the possibility of the government using women as forced life support for the future generation?

Now my debate turned very, very dark and I must say, it is the first debate I have ever had to walk away from out of disgust. She said, and I quote, "It's the girl's fault anyway. No one just gets raped. She had to have done something to deserve it. If you dress in skirts or like a slut, you shouldn't be able to go to court against the rapist. You had it coming. "

Question 2: In my personal views, there is never a justification for rape. The above statement nearly made me physically ill. What are your views on that statement and whether rape can ever be justified?

Discuss, but remember this is a touchy subject, so try your best to keep it professional.

[Lyddiechu]

well, my first reaction is to go on a long rant of immature but very emotionally satisfying name calling against the woman, but you did ask to keep this professional..

all i can say now is, can you imagine the horrible emotional damage it would do to that woman, having to carry a child of a rape to term? how could she properly raise the child once it was born, knowing that it carried the dna of the man who ruined her life? i am sorry, but this woman obviously has no idea what she is talking about. it is all well and good to be anti abortion when the baby comes from a consensual sexual encounter.. but rape?? please, i dont think your forgiving god would force a woman to carry that child.

[DarkCyrstal]

At 7/9/03 02:20 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote:

Question 2: In my personal views, there is never a justification for rape. The above statement nearly made me physically ill. What are your views on that statement and whether rape can ever be justified?

Rape, very very touchy indeed. Some say that your sexuality is your soul, or giving up part of yourself to someone else you can trust, or share with. If this is forced and these opions are on the mind of the victem, the Pyschological state of the Victem will be in ruins. Though, rape normaly doesn't damage anyone physically, maybe a broken bones, scrapes scratched, bruises, ect. the trama it couses is the worst part. Escpecially if it is in this case of an anti-abortionist getting pregant. Those long 9 months of being pregant with a monsters child inside of you. Nothing will justify something like this. Nothing

[JMHX]

That's my view as well -- that turning to the woman who was a victim of a crime such as this, a crime that is not labelled as a Crime of Passion, but instead a Violent Crime, that she is to blame for it, is something completely...so completely wrong, for lack of a better word. It is incredibly hard to carry a rapist's child to term if you heart isn't in it, anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if she resorted to a coat hanger.

[DarkCyrstal]

At 7/9/03 03:00 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: That's my view as well -- that turning to the woman who was a victim of a crime such as this, a crime that is not labelled as a Crime of Passion, but instead a Violent Crime, that she is to blame for it, is something completely...so completely wrong, for lack of a better word. It is incredibly hard to carry a rapist's child to term if you heart isn't in it, anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if she resorted to a coat hanger.

It is sick, but you hear of it a lot. Escpecially on lifetime. Having a womans pregant hormones, with the sudden greif of the past, and waht is to become of the future, often leads to suicide. And even if the baby is aborted same feelings mau occur, about she has been scared and and a life is dead becouse of her, and that... so on and so on. There is a lot pyschologically about the mind that is still to be discovered and it is theoried that the mind bends to deals with the horrors of reality, and it bends so mush it snaps. That is why i am very very interested in the knowing of the Iranian Symese twins. One is dead, the other is in critical condition. How is it going to be for the living twin if she recovers that, the person she has spent every minute with, every secend with, every laugh with, every cry with, every disaster, every spring of joy with, every meal and so on. How will she cope with this death? Maybe they both expected it would happen and have taken the time to say good bye to each other. Time will tell. As with all things.

[JMHX]

Both of the Iranian twins died during surgery last night. I was getting news breaks towards the time I was getting ready to pass out on the bed. One died quickly, then an hour later, another died of complications they have yet to mention. Horrible loss, but that's the risk they said they wanted to take.

[Ninja-Scientist]

Women who get raped never "deserve it." In fact, most women who get raped just raped by people they know. Not because they "dress like sluts." Women get drugged by male friends or trusted mates (which happened to a friend of my mother's), young women sometimes get raped by members in their families, even wives get raped by violent husbands. The sad thing is that a lot of women to get raped also get killed. And these are often just normal "the girl next door" types, walking home from school or whatnot.

But in anycase, while we are on this topic. What do you all think about the stature of limitations on the crime of rape? Right now, if you rape a women and they don't catch you until 7 years later, then you get off scott free for your violent crimes. Even with DNA evidence or other absolute proof.

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And, on to the subject of abortion. Here's how I feel. I DON'T believe in abortion as a meanst of "birth control." I think that that's just wrong. Get a condom on for heaven's sake.

However, I DO believe that abortion should be available to women who need it. And I'm not just talking about women who are raped.

I watched this televistion show about a crack head woman who gave birth to 3 very ill, "vegetable" children. And then gave them up for adoption because the bill to sustain life support for the children was at $1,000 a day. @_o' Amazingly, a family adopted all three of the children even though it would cost them that much money a day just to keep the children alive. However, there obviously aren't a lot of people like that in the world.

I think in cases when a poor family finds out that they are going to have a very ill child that would need very expensive medical treatments for the rest of his/her life, they should have the ability to abort the child. I know it's not the child's fault, but I think that it should be the mother's choice at that point. Afterall, they might not even be ABLE to raise the child to begin with.

Secondly, when there are families that find that they are going to have a terminaly ill child that might not even live past the age of 6 or such, then they should also have the ability to abort the child if they feel that they could not take the pain of losing their child or don't want their child to have to suffer the pain and die.
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Also, and this is always a touchy subject, I don't really feel that all embrios classify as "human" just yet. In fact, in the earlier stages of developement, the human fetus is exactly equal in intelligence and even looks @_o' to a pig fetus at the same state.

Now, what makes this touchy is the knowledge that that little bundle of cells would one day become a human being if it was not aborted. And I think that that is what gets people the most. However, sperm and eggs also will one day become human (not all, but some). So, one could base their argument against birth control as a crime or murder as well. Actually, that's an old Catholic belief, as is anti-abortion, but it seems that no one complains about birth control now-a-days. ^_-

Anyway, I think that the fetus becomes a human once it begins to develope a clear sense of the world around it (like a new born) or I should say, developes the characteristics of a human, namely, the famous ability to learn (again, like a new born). This is what begins to seperate the pig and human fetus in the second half of their developement.
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[Ninja-Scientist]

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So, all in all, while I am also upset at the current numbers of young girls using abortion as a means of birth control, I don't think that aliminating abortion itself is the answer. I think there is much more we can do to help the situation.

For example, currently, a girl under 18 can't get her ears pierced without a parent signature, while that same girl can get an abortion without any parental involvement at all. @_o' I think that if we made it so that those young girls needed parental involvement (while not necesserily their permission) before they got an abortion, then perhaps we could stop some from happening. Afterall, a lot of girls get abortions secretly due to shame and fear of what their parents would say or how they would treat them afterwards. However, if we made it so that parents knew before their child had an abortion, then maybe we would have more involved parents willing to provide aid to their children and able to convince them not to abort their child.
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Also, I think that there is much more we can do to provide birth control to young teens. Even though I do NOT support underage sex, I do think that unprotected underage sex is obviously worse. And considering that a lot of these teens are going to wind up doing it anyway, with bad results, such as pregnancy (which I'm not saying none of them deserve), I don't think it would be a bad idea to offer condoms in the nurses offices at high schools.

Also, I don't think that this would increase young teens having sex (at least definetly not by much). Afterall, you have to have a certain "mentality" and character to want to have sex at such a young age anyway. And I don' t think teens that never though about it before would go, "Oh, there's condoms in the schools? Great, now I just have to find some random person to have sex with now." No, because that is a certain mentality or character and set of princibles in a child that is usually built at home (which the government shouldn't be expected to have control over, anyway). Usually, those kids who are together (or not @_o') and want to have sex, will do it anyway.

However, even if it did increase the numbers of underage sex by a bit, I don't think that that is as damaging of a problem as teengage pregnancy. And I don't think there are many who would argue against that point.
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All in all, though. You have to consider what the government's responsibility is. If your kid is out having sex, then that's a parental and home problem. The government shouldn't take responsibilty for kids wanting to have sex and having sex, the parents should.

However! Teenage pregnancies ARE a governmental issue considering that these kids often wind up on welthfare (using tax dollars) and contribute to a drop in employment and schooling.

Therefore, I think that the government should provide condoms in schools. The willingness of your children to use them and have sex, comes from home, and the government shouldn't be expected to have control over home affairs and how we raise our kids. So, if you don't want your kid to wind up pregnant, then the government should provide condoms in school. If you don't want your kids to have sex, then that's your problem in raising them. Not the government's.

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Few. Well, that's my opinions on everything. You don't have to agree with any of them. But just hear me out. ^_-

[mysecondstar]

this kind of stuff is exactly why i'm going into law school. rape is never justified, it's a brutal crime, and no one deserves it. period. my ex-gf had been raped and, even though i have no feelings for her anymore, i still want to kill the guy that did that to her. i honestly believe that the death penalty be instated for the crime of rape. to destroy a person physically and mentally and let them live with that for the rest of their life deserves retribution to the highest degree.

[Red-Faction]

At 7/9/03 02:20 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote:

"It's the girl's fault anyway. No one just gets raped. She had to have done something to deserve it. If you dress in skirts or like a slut, you shouldn't be able to go to court against the rapist. You had it coming. "

Fuck, that pissed me off man! I'm a senior at a Catholic School, and I have to face this shit EVERYDAy! Personally, I'm Not a Catholic, And I'm Pro Choice, and I've had to stop and walk away at school because of the stupid shit like this my teachers say. I Strongly agrre with your Statements here. And I'm gonna use that one, Should The Government Force a Woman to give Birth?
But On to this quote here. This Fuckin Pissed me off, cause This is exactly the kind of attitude the teachers at my school have, And I was Especially pissed at that one as My sister was Raped in Downtown Montgomery lats June.

[Nirvana13666]

OMG let her get raped and see if she would then repeat those same words. No one deserves to be raped no matter what. 38% of all rape cases reported the range in ages to be fourteen through seventeen. They’re not even adults how can children intentionally look to be a rape victim?

If abortions became illegal you would have all these women having induced abortions in back alleys. The only suitable alternative to abortion if the woman is not into adoption would be to give it to the biological father. If the father feels like he wants to have the child then there should be a way for him to fight the abortion in court. Having a child has nothing to do with anyone else except for the biological parents.

[mojohojojomo]

someone very close to me was raped (i'm not gonna say who obviously) and seeing that comment made me so angry. that woman must have been so naive and selfish to say something so sick. i have no doubt that if she was raped she would not have dressed like a 'slut' nor would she want to keep the child. as for using woman to make more population, i dont there will be a problem as our population is dropping very slowing, and only reached its peak not very long ago. i dont know about the future, but i dont think any of us will live to see the government using women as 'machines' to make children.

[FUNKbrs]

I saw a missed point and had to go for it.... Sorry...

A child is a thing of value. If the rapists child is allowed to live, the rapist has won the final victory over his victim. Why should we allow a rapist to gain ANYTHING from his horrendous crime? The state should make an abortion (if necessary) free, to be paid off by the fines of the convicted rapist. Furthermore, the rapist should be financially responsible for all counseling.

(exit logic)Hell, he should be forced to watch a tape of the the abortion, and have the dead fetus hung in his cell. Worthless piece of shit.

[78]

first off i think the woman u were talking to is obviously sick in her mind i wonder what she would do if she were pregnant with a rapist child......putting the blame on the victim is a horrible and disgusting thing to do and i challenge anyone to make me disagree. i really cant beleive that the woman would say that the victim provoked the rapist thats ridiculous there is no provacation for rape and i know this whole subject is touchy but i think under certain instances it is entirley in the right of any waoman to get an abortion.

[Ninja-Scientist]

Yes. Discrimination against women is still fairly strong in Japan. In fact, there are still places that they aren't allowed. Such as business hotels, business bars, etc. Basically, women aren't allowed to be business women. @_o' Well, they can, but they aren't allowed anywhere where business takes place.

Also, I can't believe that article and how they were planning on only "rewarding" women "for having children." What the F is that? Why are women "rewarded" for having children? What if they don't want kids? Jeez. That article was speaking of women like they were Japanese cattle, and only true members of society once they produced offspring for their male partners. What about men? How about not giving the money to men unless they have kids? Why is it that having children is deemed the woman's responsibility? I mean, jeez, we all know that men are equally responsible for it. Why is it that women still have to be mothers or housewifes in order to be valued in Japan? Why can't they just be people?

Grrrr. Still makes me mad.
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PS. What does everyone feel about the stature of limitations on rape (I wrote about it in my last two posts)? Right now if you rape a women and they don't find you until 7 years later, then you get off SCOTT FREE! Even if DNA evidence or other absolute is involved. Poor woman.

[Ninja-Scientist]

I would also like to add, that even though the portrayal of women as "propelling their own rapes" is disturbing enough, I think the portrayal of men is even more unsettling. If men truly have no control over their violent and sexual tendacies, and will turn into raging violent animals at the slightest provocation, then I think we have an even more disturbing issue to cover. Why are we letting such primitave creatures run our society? Afterall, by using the same logic, it would appear that women have more control over themselves and are more human. Perhaps, then, we should talk about removing some of those creatures from office, considering that their inability to control themselves and turn into raging criminals could affect their ability to run a country. Don't you think?

I would like to ask those Japanese men that question. ^_-

[biteme2514]

At 7/9/03 02:20 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: Question 1: What are your views on the possibility of the government using women as forced life support for the future generation?

I don't think that's right at all. I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here, but no woman should be forced to do anything, you know?

Question 2: In my personal views, there is never a justification for rape. The above statement nearly made me physically ill. What are your views on that statement and whether rape can ever be justified?

Rape's never really the fault of the victim. It's like saying that all physically-attractive women should scar themselves up a little to avoid being stalked by some pervert in the bushes. Whoever you were having that debate with obviously only has a biased opinion in order to make herself feel better about not being as attractive as some of her peers. Must be one of those pesky subconscious things...

[Lyddiechu]

i gotta say its really nice to see everyone come out and defend a woman's most basic reproductive rights in this post regardless of your stance on abortion. you guys have proven that the world isnt completely filled with sick fucks and their twisted morality!!

[JMHX]

At 7/9/03 06:24 PM, Lyddiechu wrote: i gotta say its really nice to see everyone come out and defend a woman's most basic reproductive rights in this post regardless of your stance on abortion. you guys have proven that the world isnt completely filled with sick fucks and their twisted morality!!

Yes, this greatly increased my respect of everyone here, especially Ninja_Scientist for her comprehensive and well written views on the subject. I was worried that someone in the DAG would post a dissenting opinion just for the sake of argument, and it does me good to know that the DAG knows where a line is to be drawn and respects that. On a different note, however, I plan on going to law school, just as someone else said they did, to protect and defened people who are led to believe they are the victims by things like what this woman said. Now, allow me to quote her again on something that should make your blood boil.

"My friend was raped, and she was dressing like a slut, and I told her she knew why she was raped, and now she does. She didn't waste her family's money on a lawsuit, and just accepted it, and now she's a loving mother.

...it makes all of my diplomatic speech vanish. So I'll stop here.

[Lyddiechu]

awww thx!! even we in the dag have an idea of the realm of moral discourse.. im not morally opposed to terrorism, but here its different for me and i think for everyone. its things like this that will make me carry a gun and become well trained in the art of firearms when i am older. iwould have no qualms about shooting a rapist who was attacking me or any of my family. god help him if he ever try and mess with any of the women close to me...

so to take this thread in a new direction, what do you guys think should be done with convicted rapists? should they be killed, rehabilitated, castrated (my personal favorite when the rape is proven wtihout a shadow of a doubt) or applauded and clapped on the back (j/k)?

[JMHX]

At 7/9/03 06:50 PM, Lyddiechu wrote:
so to take this thread in a new direction, what do you guys think should be done with convicted rapists? should they be killed, rehabilitated, castrated (my personal favorite when the rape is proven wtihout a shadow of a doubt) or applauded and clapped on the back (j/k)?

The death penalty for rape has always seemed severe in my eyes, except if the criminal is a serial rapist. Castration seems a violation of human dignity, and politically I am opposed to it, but personally I can see why some families would suggest that. I would simply say extending prison sentences and limiting the chances for parole would be the best steps to take.

[78]

Now, allow me to quote her again on something that should make your blood boil.

"My friend was raped, and she was dressing like a slut, and I told her she knew why she was raped, and now she does. She didn't waste her family's money on a lawsuit, and just accepted it, and now she's a loving mother.

...it makes all of my diplomatic speech vanish. So I'll stop here.

........i hate to say it but i'm speechless i have absoulutley nothing to say about that i just cant think of an arguement.......i mean dont get me wrong that statement is appaling but i dont know what to say.

[mysecondstar]

At 7/9/03 06:55 PM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: The death penalty for rape has always seemed severe in my eyes

a life for a life. if someone decided it was a good idea to destroy someone who can never live the same, trust a man the same, and feel so violated and dirty should be treated in kind; their life should be destroyed.

[JMHX]

At 7/9/03 07:00 PM, mysecondstar wrote:

At 7/9/03 06:55 PM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: The death penalty for rape has always seemed severe in my eyes

a life for a life. if someone decided it was a good idea to destroy someone who can never live the same, trust a man the same, and feel so violated and dirty should be treated in kind; their life should be destroyed.

If the Life for a Life policy were existant, everyone who committed a murder would be killed. It's not in the principles of the United States to execute every man who commits an offense, even if the jails are becoming overcrowded.

[mysecondstar]

At 7/9/03 07:04 PM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: If the Life for a Life policy were existant, everyone who committed a murder would be killed. It's not in the principles of the United States to execute every man who commits an offense, even if the jails are becoming overcrowded.

be that as it may i believe that life imprisonment up to and including the death penalty should be instituted for those convicted of rape. as it is now it is a 20 year maximum sentence with most being paroled far before the entire sentence is carried out.if you want to make a woman suffer for the rest of her life you should make the man suffer as well.

[JMHX]

At 7/9/03 07:19 PM, mysecondstar wrote:

At 7/9/03 07:04 PM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: If the Life for a Life policy were existant, everyone who committed a murder would be killed. It's not in the principles of the United States to execute every man who commits an offense, even if the jails are becoming overcrowded.

be that as it may i believe that life imprisonment up to and including the death penalty should be instituted for those convicted of rape. as it is now it is a 20 year maximum sentence with most being paroled far before the entire sentence is carried out.if you want to make a woman suffer for the rest of her life you should make the man suffer as well.

I'm in full agreement for the extension of the rape sentences and the 3 Strikes law leading to life imprisonment. However, I can only justify the death penalty for a rapist if they were a serial rapist or raped and murdered with planning before the fact.

[mysecondstar]

At 7/9/03 07:23 PM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: I'm in full agreement for the extension of the rape sentences and the 3 Strikes law leading to life imprisonment. However, I can only justify the death penalty for a rapist if they were a serial rapist or raped and murdered with planning before the fact.

this isn't like murder where there are different degrees as well as manslaughter. you don't rape someone by mistake.

[Ninja-Scientist]

I have one subject to add to this. I already asked it before, but I figure no one noticed it, since it was just a small portion of my posts. ^_^
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What does everyone feel about the stature of limitations on rape? Right now, if you rape a woman and the police don't find you until 7 years later, you get off SCOTT FREE! Even if DNA evidence and other absolute proof links you to the crime. Poor woman.

[JMHX]

At 7/9/03 09:07 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote: I have one subject to add to this. I already asked it before, but I figure no one noticed it, since it was just a small portion of my posts. ^_^
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What does everyone feel about the stature of limitations on rape? Right now, if you rape a woman and the police don't find you until 7 years later, you get off SCOTT FREE! Even if DNA evidence and other absolute proof links you to the crime. Poor woman.

I have always felt the statute of limitations should be extended to twenty years, since child molestation statutes are still much longer than rape.

[Ninja-Scientist]

At 7/9/03 06:50 PM, Lyddiechu wrote:

so to take this thread in a new direction, what do you guys think should be done with convicted rapists? should they be killed, rehabilitated, castrated (my personal favorite when the rape is proven wtihout a shadow of a doubt) or applauded and clapped on the back (j/k)?

They should throw you in a room and have you get raped by a big guy named "Bubba."
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I never quite understood how the eye for an eye theory is considered "cruel and unusual punishment" considering that the eye for an eye theory always fits the crime, while prison sentences and what not rarely ever do (either too little or sometimes too much). Eye for an eye! That's what I say. ^_-