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At 9/4/07 12:41 PM, stybayo wrote:

At 9/2/07 04:53 AM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote:

At 9/1/07 10:16 PM, TonyTostieno wrote: Wrong, that's all there is to it.

The very existence of monopolies within the market who exploit people and the fact that corporations can quite easily influence the policies of major world powers can be used as evidence that without government intervention we'd all be run by banks or god knows what.

At least in a capitalist society you can move UP instead of staying at the same level like in socialism:

Why is it that people don't seem to understand the concept of socialism and communism properly?

There are NO levels in true socialism so saying the fact that you can move up them in capitalism is not a valid point to show capitalism is better as ther eis no comparison to make as one has classes and the other is classless.

There is no such thing as true socialism. It doesn't matter what Marx said, all socialist and communist goverments end in full goverment overtake, the killing of anyone who differs, stop believing in fairytales, in Spain, Letonia, Russia, Cuba, China and wherever there is communism,it failed. Why don't communist don't want to accept that?

So it has failed in those five countries. Should I give you 5 countries that has failed although they had a rightwing economy?
Also, a big reason why it doesn't succeed is because the US doesn't accept them, for example, take Venezuela. Chavez is kind of socialistic, and for that, he get to take lots and lots of shit. Sure, there are problems in Venezuela, but there are such problems over the whole world and other countries that also has some problems with freedom of speech get US support. Incidently, the countries that GET support are most rightwing countries, even if they violate human rights.
Not to speak of the violations made by the US.
Is it just me, or don't you to see a pattern?

Read animal farm or if you don't have the patience watch the movie they made based on the book. It explains quite well why communism will never work.

At 9/5/07 07:49 AM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: ya right if I was a doctor and I would want my 1000X than the wages of a "ditch digger' because I desrve it why you ask?

His point is that you don't deserve it, and I agree.

1. I went through seven years of studying and three years of internship

So? Say you both work until your 65, and that you both began studying when you were 15. That would make 40 years of studying plus working. As I see it, your total income during that time should be about as much. So if he for example made 1000 units of money per year, he would make 37000 units of money (since he probably studied about 3 years). You, on the other hand, only gained income for 30, and thus your base pay should be about 1233 units per year. Then you must count in risks and responsibility and such. But in no way you should go up to ten times his worth.

2. pay off student loans

If my calculation was used, that would be included.

3. pay off my bills taxes etc.

So? He must do that to.

4. I put in more work hours a week

Of course your pay should be based on actual hours. But 40 is standard in the US too, isn't it?

5. I graduated from High School ( a perfect place to get a scholarship

So? Why should you get more money because of that? Because you're smarter? Sure, it takes time, but that time you have already mentioned in "1.".

6. I went to college and got my degree

See my answer to "5."

So 2 of your points were totally nonsense (5 and 6) since they were included in point one, and the other points were easily dispatched.

At 9/5/07 10:46 AM, Sajberhippien wrote:

5. I graduated from High School ( a perfect place to get a scholarship

So? Why should you get more money because of that? Because you're smarter? Sure, it takes time, but that time you have already mentioned in "1.".

Yes, thats exactly the reason, because its easy to be lazy and unskilled, it takes hard work to be smart.

6. I went to college and got my degree
See my answer to "5."

Same as above.

At 9/5/07 07:01 PM, LabBattle wrote:

At 9/5/07 10:46 AM, Sajberhippien wrote:

5. I graduated from High School ( a perfect place to get a scholarship

So? Why should you get more money because of that? Because you're smarter? Sure, it takes time, but that time you have already mentioned in "1.".

Yes, thats exactly the reason, because its easy to be lazy and unskilled, it takes hard work to be smart.

6. I went to college and got my degree
See my answer to "5."

Same as above.

You know that different people have different intellectual possibilities? Biologically, I mean. Also, being smarter in itself is totally irrelevant. What should be important is if you are doing what your job requires. I can say that it takes hard work to play football, so everyone who likes football should have higher pay. Right?

At 8/29/07 06:45 PM, wisthekiller wrote: i know no-one wants to talk about it, but here i go.

Comunism is good in someways, Im not talking about fake comunsim such as hitler or castro, im talking about the real thing. for example:

dude communism sucks. Look how screwed up Cuba and Russia and N. Korea are

At 9/6/07 09:30 AM, Sajberhippien wrote:

You know that different people have different intellectual possibilities? Biologically, I mean. Also, being smarter in itself is totally irrelevant. What should be important is if you are doing what your job requires. I can say that it takes hard work to play football, so everyone who likes football should have higher pay. Right?

Professional football players do make more money, Liking football isnt enough to warrant a paycheck, and to stay at the level of a profesional athlete is hard work, again, hard work pays off, as it should, do i think they should make millions a year, no, but if thats how much owners want to pay them, why not, thats how business works, we reward those who are skilled and hard working with higher paychecks

In a commie country, the counter guy at mcdonalds would be "equal" to like all those lawyers an doctors who worked really hard to get where they are. They went through college an grad school, and the mcdonald kid dropped out o high school. I lie the cance to get ahead, an i woerked hard, and im doin well. scroo yoo you lazy bums! you gotta work!

In order to say that communism is affective, one must point to a nation that had a thriving economy under a communist economic system.

I'm Captain Obvious! I state the retardedly obvious!

At 8/29/07 06:45 PM, wisthekiller wrote: i know no-one wants to talk about it, but here i go.

Comunism is good in someways, Im not talking about fake comunsim such as hitler or castro, im talking about the real thing. for example:

Pro comunism:
everyone is equal

Wrong, leaders are more powerful

everyone has a right to live

Not to Stalin XP and also, You don't have the right to live in Capitalism?

no one is too poor to afford to eat and drink

Until the economy goes down.

you can be rich if you have a job

Wrong, "Everyone is equal" means moneywise too. Job or not, you'll never be rich.

without a job you arent poor

Unless the economy goes down.

you depend on the government

Almost everytime the government was EVIL!

if its set up right, everyone can be succesful

But it never is.

Pro capitalism:
you depend on yourself

Most of the time.

you can get rich easier

You get good grades and get a good job.

the government is elected, not appointed

True.

you can blame the president for everything.

Thats mean but true. :[

now i would like your oponions whether you are for or agianst me, whether i put up a good argument or just made comunism sound worse.

Nice try :P

Communism relies on the government to ensure that all people are equal...

But it's a semi-standard [not applicable to all.. but...] you find time and time again that Individuals in support of communism NEVER trust a government AT ALL unless it's a communist one.

At 8/29/07 06:45 PM, wisthekiller wrote:

without a job you arent poor

Why work then?

At 9/4/07 01:27 PM, Sajberhippien wrote:

At 8/29/07 07:57 PM, Buckdich wrote:

At 8/29/07 07:15 PM, Transkar wrote: Communsim will never work on humans. Once again, its good in theory, bad in practice. It always ends up a police state as well.

I wouldn't say it's great in theory. Wouldn't a system in which you get out what you put in be better than a system where people always get the same share despite wether they contributed more to the general stock or not?

Communism doesn't have to mean everyone get excactly the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
Of course you can own your car, and of course you could have a high income. The difference is that the car factory and your income is decided democratically.

And your income is descided democractically... meaning a government official descides what each workers earnings should equate to.

Sounds like what kings did to peasants in the fuedal system.... but *sigh* if it's communism i supose they'd be more dedicated to egalitarianism. So what if it's elected democratically? don't tell me you as a person have never questioned the legitimacy of an election. [That statement i made was contemplative]

At 9/6/07 01:52 PM, LabBattle wrote:

At 9/6/07 09:30 AM, Sajberhippien wrote:

You know that different people have different intellectual possibilities? Biologically, I mean. Also, being smarter in itself is totally irrelevant. What should be important is if you are doing what your job requires. I can say that it takes hard work to play football, so everyone who likes football should have higher pay. Right?

Professional football players do make more money, Liking football isnt enough to warrant a paycheck, and to stay at the level of a profesional athlete is hard work, again, hard work pays off, as it should, do i think they should make millions a year, no, but if thats how much owners want to pay them, why not, thats how business works, we reward those who are skilled and hard working with higher paychecks

Ok, you probably didn't understand my argument: Just because you have an ability that is hard to come by doesn't mean youi should get more pay.
And yes, that's the way business works, and that's what I would like to see a change in.
Who says a hotel cleaner can't be skilled and hard-working? Or a machinist? I know quite a few hard-working cleaners at my last school. They were very effective; If you had put a doctor or football player to do their work it had probably taken five times longer, thus by your logic the cleaners should get five times the pay of a doctor. Right?
Right now, how much you get in pay decides if you are skilled, not the reverse.

At 9/8/07 12:48 AM, Sajberhippien wrote: Who says a hotel cleaner can't be skilled and hard-working? Or a machinist? I know quite a few hard-working cleaners at my last school. They were very effective; If you had put a doctor or football player to do their work it had probably taken five times longer,

So why haven't the cleaners formed their own business and done contract cleaning, since they are so skilled and quick? They pay would then be based on their own abilities. Those who do not make the best of their skills will get shafted; doctors and football players spend a lot of time seeking the best pay for their skills, so why aren't your cleaners doing the same?

That's the joy of Freedom in Capitalism; if you're smart, you have the freedom to seek the most benefit from your skills.

Capitalism gets raped by any dog. capitalism is as good as a pile of poo.

Socialism is the way to go!

At 9/9/07 04:38 PM, Kenzu wrote: Capitalism gets raped by any dog. capitalism is as good as a pile of poo.

Socialism is the way to go!

In case you're a troll, you fail at it, since you're unfunny.

In case you're serious, you fail at it x10, since you're a moron.

At 9/10/07 05:39 PM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: kenzu is a troll in one post he said he has studied economics for 4 years but his profile says he is 20 and when I googled his location it ended up in russia where communist influence still lingers

russia has economists? they could've fooled me..

Here's a tip to fight off trolls that doesn't require magic spells or an enchanted sword.

often times arguing with trolls brings the discussion back to square 1, instead, private message the person in HOPES they'll read the message. You should typically start by asking where they're basis of information comes from. If they argue that it is an indesputable fact that they are right and they as superior beings have no need to give any information to support they're ideas then just tell them that ignorance is bliss, get on with you're life, and stop talking to them.

Kenzu is a bitch who doesn't know what he's talking about.

At 9/11/07 08:27 AM, Dante-Son-Of-Sparda wrote: probbly so and if he studied economics for 4 years he started when he was 16

Either that, or *gasp* maybe he didn't take economics at all! :O

So, nice try,
If its communism i wont have to go to school
(I will still get the same salary)
I wont have to work
(I wont get poor, and I'll always have food)
And i dont have to make anything!
That sounds great, doesn't it?
But that means that nobody will go in school
to learn how lead the country, so the sons of the leaders will learn it,
And that means that stuff will easily become dictature.

So it has failed in those five countries. Should I give you 5 countries that has failed although they had a rightwing economy?
Also, a big reason why it doesn't succeed is because the US doesn't accept them, for example, take Venezuela. Chavez is kind of socialistic, and for that, he get to take lots and lots of shit. Sure, there are problems in Venezuela, but there are such problems over the whole world and other countries that also has some problems with freedom of speech get US support. Incidently, the countries that GET support are most rightwing countries, even if they violate human rights.
Not to speak of the violations made by the US.
Is it just me, or don't you to see a pattern?

WRONG!
It failed nowhere. For something to fail it has to be tried first. Socialist countries wont shift towards communism until people become suitable for communism, which shouldn't happen in the next 100 years.

At 9/11/07 09:19 AM, Kenzu wrote: It failed nowhere. For something to fail it has to be tried first. Socialist countries wont shift towards communism until people become suitable for communism, which shouldn't happen in the next 100 years.

And what magical change occurs in 100 years that makes people "suitable for communism?"

You know, there is such thing as liberal communism.

They aren't all fascists.
That's just how America tends to see any type of government different from their own.