Religion, politics, and war

[GeoGWM]

This is going to piss people off... but it is under the politics section (so who doesn't get po is this area).
The major conflict starter of just about every war is religious belief. If you can name more than, oh lets say 5, major wars that have not involved at least one religious groups I will be amazed. If not religion, it is political belief which can be stemed from religion (like "In god we trust" for the US). We were attacked by terrorist becuase they don't like our beliefs, we are still in Iraq becuase the groups there are going to kill each other if left alone (oh, and for oil money), and there are always the scape goats (jews {wwii} and arab sects{now}) that governments use to provoke a country into something they will later realize was a really bad idea. I don't think you, the people of NG, will object to this as muchto this as some of the communist threads (they are really funny to read)... becuase this is historical fact. You can use just about any search system you want and find something like what I have here (I did test this before I put it on here lol)

You can't get rid of war by getting rid of orgainized religion, just like you couldn't get rid of it with just one form of government world wide. Religion is just the top cause for war, it is not the only cuase.
{as a side note, I hope this thread ends up better than my first did under art... that went REALLY bad becuase noone really had anything helpful. Unless you have something to really add-insult or otherwise don't bother}

[Korriken]

let's see, WW1 was started by an assassination, WW2 was started because of the Nazis taking over Poland. the Spanish american war was started over land that belonged to mexico, the korean war started over a split on whether the country should be communist, and the vietnam was was started over the same reason.

all i gotta say is...

[Korriken]

oh and dont forget the many many wars in Japan and china between the warlords trying to unite the countries. let's see, there was also the roman empire, who started many wars for land and power, the many wars in europe over land....

!!?clicky?!!

[Empanado]

Chaco War
War of the Triple Alliance
War of the Pacific
World War I
Punic Wars
Spanish Civil War
Napoleonic Wars
Vietnam War
Korean War
Spanish-American War
Peloponessian War

[SuperDeagle]

I like it, shot down before even taken off the ground.
We need more of this.

[SicklesIsInsane]

Well, looks to me like he can never return to this thread again. lol

[SlithVampir]

At 8/18/07 01:36 AM, Empanado wrote: Chaco War
War of the Triple Alliance
War of the Pacific
World War I
Punic Wars
Spanish Civil War
Napoleonic Wars
Vietnam War
Korean War
Spanish-American War
Peloponessian War

Bet he didn't expect you to go ancient greek on him.

[Pheidippides]

American Revolutionary War
Quasi War
First Barbary War
Indian Wars
War of 1812
Second Barbary War
War of Texas Independence
Mexican-American War
American Civil War
Spanish-American War
Philippine Insurrection
World War 1
World War 2
Korean Conflict
Vietnam Conflict
Persian Gulf War
Somali Civil War
Yugoslav Wars
Operation Enduring Freedom
Iraq War
Insurgency in Saudi Arabia
Waziristan War
Fatah-Hamas Conflict
War in Somalia

There, I just named almost every armed conflict involving the United States. How many of them were because of religion? None.

[AapoJoki]

Keep pointing out those conflicts with no religion involved, while ignoring the rest what the OP said. Yes, there are more non-religious wars than he thought, but the point stands. Why don't you try figuring out how many wars have been started or fought in the name of atheism or secular humanism, and if you can find any, compare them with the vast amount of religious conflicts?

[Dragon-Smaug]

At 8/18/07 01:27 AM, Korriken wrote: all i gotta say is...

Hah hah invasion of the body snatchers I love it.

[Pheidippides]

At 8/18/07 09:59 AM, AapoJoki wrote: Keep pointing out those conflicts with no religion involved, while ignoring the rest what the OP said. Yes, there are more non-religious wars than he thought, but the point stands. Why don't you try figuring out how many wars have been started or fought in the name of atheism or secular humanism, and if you can find any, compare them with the vast amount of religious conflicts?

How many atheists and secular humanists have had the power to declare war? Oh yeah, extremely few, including Lenin and Stalin, who NEVER tried to violently suppress religion or anything.

[Pheidippides]

By the way, if anyone wants me to, I can expand greatly on my original list, as I grouped many wars together.

[AapoJoki]

At 8/18/07 01:25 PM, Pheidippides wrote: How many atheists and secular humanists have had the power to declare war? Oh yeah, extremely few, including Lenin and Stalin, who NEVER tried to violently suppress religion or anything.

Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao, all of them atheists, did fight wars and did try to suppress religion, but it was only part of their political agenda, not their religious one. They didn't commit those atrocities in the name atheism, they committed them in the name of authoritarian communism.

[Empanado]

At 8/18/07 01:38 PM, AapoJoki wrote: Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao, all of them atheists, did fight wars and did try to suppress religion, but it was only part of their political agenda, not their religious one. They didn't commit those atrocities in the name atheism, they committed them in the name of authoritarian communism.

But isn't violent supression of organized religion a key element in the doctrine of authoritarian communist regimes? That would fall under the second category of the OP's post, which is politics pertaining religion.

[AapoJoki]

At 8/18/07 01:42 PM, Empanado wrote: But isn't violent supression of organized religion a key element in the doctrine of authoritarian communist regimes? That would fall under the second category of the OP's post, which is politics pertaining religion.

Perhaps, but Stalin etc. would have committed cruelties even if they hadn't been against religion. I'm sure the anti-religion was a very small part of their politics, much smaller than the religious aspect of extreme muslim politicians in the Middle East or Christian conservatives in USA.

[tony4moroney]

At 8/18/07 01:25 PM, Pheidippides wrote:
How many atheists and secular humanists have had the power to declare war? Oh yeah, extremely few, including Lenin and Stalin, who NEVER tried to violently suppress religion or anything.

how many have sought the power to declare wars, incite hate and commit genocides?
Also, lenin and stalin tried to supress religion for political purposes not for the sake of atheism itself.

[Nylo]

At 8/18/07 01:18 AM, GeoGWM wrote: You can't get rid of war by getting rid of orgainized religion, just like you couldn't get rid of it with just one form of government world wide. Religion is just the top cause for war, it is not the only cuase.
{as a side note, I hope this thread ends up better than my first did under art... that went REALLY bad becuase noone really had anything helpful. Unless you have something to really add-insult or otherwise don't bother}

It's logical though to go into war with religion. When to nations are ready to kill eachother, it'd be impossible to do so without conviction. You have to believe what you're donig is right. In my understanding of history, people find ways to spark conflict before their religion even gets involved. It's true that conflict and religion are almost inseperable, but conflict and government are entirely inseperable. Too many people are quick to blame the priest and not the men who actually write the laws and conduct diplomacy. I can't help but think that bla

Though I could compromise and come mid-way with you if you wanted to say it was human nature to develop religious thought. It's not a belief I hold, but I think it's closer to the truth than placing religion as the be-all, end-all root of conflict.

[Pheidippides]

how many have sought the power to declare wars, incite hate and commit genocides?

Skinheads, communists, you know.

Also, lenin and stalin tried to supress religion for political purposes not for the sake of atheism itself.

And do you actually believe the Crusades were fought for Christianity itself?

[Memorize]

At 8/18/07 02:05 PM, tony4moroney wrote:

how many have sought the power to declare wars, incite hate and commit genocides?
Also, lenin and stalin tried to supress religion for political purposes not for the sake of atheism itself.

I love it.

Guy #1: "Religion has caused so many wars!"
Guy #2: "Stalin was atheist, tried to supress religion. Ended up killing 10 million or so..."
Guy #1: "Yeah, but that was for political purposes"

Brilliant. Simpley brilliant.

[AapoJoki]

At 8/18/07 03:21 PM, Memorize wrote: I love it.

Guy #1: "Religion has caused so many wars!"
Guy #2: "Stalin was atheist, tried to supress religion. Ended up killing 10 million or so..."
Guy #1: "Yeah, but that was for political purposes"

Brilliant. Simpley brilliant.

It's not hypocritical to say that, it's simply the way it has been throughout history.

[J1993]

Stalin killed over 56 million Chairman mau another man who surpressed religion killed over 50 million thats more than any religious dictator without religion governments need to cause fear like stalins great officer purge.

[GeoGWM]

Alright, I am amazed just as I said (wrote) that I would be. Good job people lol... I don't really care how this thread goes from here on out. You people got me very well....

[tony4moroney]

At 8/18/07 03:21 PM, Memorize wrote:

I love it.

Guy #1: "Religion has caused so many wars!"
Guy #2: "Stalin was atheist, tried to supress religion. Ended up killing 10 million or so..."
Guy #1: "Yeah, but that was for political purposes"

Brilliant. Simpley brilliant.

think about it this way, if these people weren't religious they wouldnt have been killed :0. stalin did kill for political purposes. he felt threatened by religion believing it could cause an anti-soviet uprising, kind of like how the chinese govt. wanted to supress falun gong which isn't an abrahamic religion or a religion at all, more like a spiritual movement.

[Memorize]

At 8/19/07 01:32 AM, tony4moroney wrote:

think about it this way, if these people weren't religious they wouldnt have been killed :0.

Damn those natives.

If only they were religous, they wouldn't have been killed!

stalin did kill for political purposes.

Yep.

he felt threatened by religion believing it could cause an anti-soviet uprising,

Oh look.

A good thing from religion.

At 8/18/07 06:47 PM, AapoJoki wrote:

It's not hypocritical to say that, it's simply the way it has been throughout history.

It is if you're going to sterotype all religions into 1 and claim they're the sole cause for wars without looking at the situation.

[tony4moroney]

At 8/19/07 01:35 AM, Memorize wrote:

At 8/19/07 01:32 AM, tony4moroney wrote:

think about it this way, if these people weren't religious they wouldnt have been killed :0.

Damn those natives.

If only they were religous, they wouldn't have been killed!

are you talking about the spanish or british? anyhow whatever youre talking about it was kind of self-defeatist seeing as how it's exactly what youre implying it was, a war incited by religious hate.

he felt threatened by religion believing it could cause an anti-soviet uprising,

Oh look.

A good thing from religion.

i never said religion was without it's benefits

[Memorize]

At 8/19/07 01:41 AM, tony4moroney wrote:

are you talking about the spanish or british? anyhow whatever youre talking about it was kind of self-defeatist seeing as how it's exactly what youre implying it was, a war incited by religious hate.

I never denied that.

Then again, we're talking about the same group of people who USED to slaughter Christians before they adopted the religion.

So it was more about the nation and their attitude rather than the religion.

But just the same, I could claim Stalin comitted genocide against the religous because of his paranoia and fear.

Whether or not it be for a political purpose, it was still an atheistic man who decided to slaughter the religous.

And they're both wrong. Which is why, once again, I wonder why YOU defend one over very minor technicalities and condemn the other.

Is it because it suits your beliefs?

i never said religion was without it's benefits

No, you didn't.

I was just stating a fact.

[tony4moroney]

At 8/19/07 01:49 AM, Memorize wrote: I could claim Stalin comitted genocide against the religous because of his paranoia and fear.

Whether or not it be for a political purpose, it was still an atheistic man who decided to slaughter the religous.

but they were killed for the state not for atheism.

And they're both wrong. Which is why, once again, I wonder why YOU defend one over very minor technicalities and condemn the other.

because you havent given me a legitimate proof of people being killed for the sake of atheism but rather just compared the actions of an atheist and likened it to a religious war.

[Reignspike]

At 8/18/07 01:18 AM, GeoGWM wrote: The major conflict starter of just about every war is religious belief.....

I'd just like to try to try to understand a little. It sounds to me like you're stating 2 things: 1) religious belief is involved in a great percentage of wars, 2) a great percentage of wars are started because of religious belief.

In regards to item #1, I think this is a throwaway statement that is of course quite true. Almost everyone has some opionion about religion -- even those "without" religion call themselves either atheist or agnostic and atheism itself is a religion. So if almost all people have some beliefs about religion, and it is people that are involved in wars, then religious belief is involved in almost all wars.

But this is different than claim #2. As other posters have pointed out, most wars are not caused by religious belief. In fact, in many wars that are considered "religious" or "holy wars", the primary motivator was (is) something else, and religion used as an excuse. Maybe someone can name a war where there is proof that there were no underlying factors and religion for its own sake was the only one? Even the jihadists are warring on more than just religion -- or else they'd be warring with everyone equally.

I think people have plenty of things that get them riled up (even msg board posting!). If religion didn't exist, that wouldn't stop war or even lessen it. Nor would it have, IMNSHO, historically.

[zoolrule]

It took me some time, But i figured it up - the human nature is to fight - ITS OUR NATURE.
Oh and another thing judeism is not just a religion its a nation. So should they get rid of theyre historical
memories and traditions?
Look, There are wars between countries, inside countries, between cities, between streets, between families, between people! So deep its assimilated. So you really think thats the way to stop fighting ? its far more complicated.

[Gunter45]

At 8/19/07 02:02 AM, tony4moroney wrote:

At 8/19/07 01:49 AM, Memorize wrote: I could claim Stalin comitted genocide against the religous because of his paranoia and fear.

Whether or not it be for a political purpose, it was still an atheistic man who decided to slaughter the religous.

but they were killed for the state not for atheism.

Who the fuck cares? They were MURDERED for believing in something? Suddenly it becomes okay just because it's for the state? I've always known you were stupid, but I didn't know you were blind as well.