Communism

[Anachronist]

I saw the communism discussion below, so I know that there is some interest in here in talking about evolution and communism.

For the most part, the arguments against communism were pretty bad, tired, and just plain wrong. On that note, some of the arguments for it were just as uninformed.

Anyway, the point of this post is to invite people over to my communism site, www.kazm.net (back in the day we were NG's first ever featured site).

I'm no regular to this forum, so I don't expect to be coming back for any discussion, but I encourage anybody interested to e-mail me or to post on my site's forum.

Thank ye.

"Communism is not a programme one puts into practice or makes others put into practice, but a social movement. Communism is not an ideal to be realised: it already exists, not as a society, but as an effort, a task to prepare for. It is the movement which tries to abolish the conditions of life determined by wage-labour and it will abolish them by revolution’ (Dauvé & Martin). Communism is not a utopian blueprint for the future nor has it got anything to do with the ‘communist’ regimes of the past where capitalism was managed by the state. Communism is the movement towards the abolition of states, classes, private property, money and hierarchies of power, and the collective creation of the means to satisfy our needs and desires."

- Antagonism Press

[Raptorman]

Dead link dude.

[Anachronist]

At 6/16/01 09:37 PM, Raptorman wrote: Dead link dude.

Odd, works fine for me (see screenshot below).

Well, uh, what can I say... if at first you don't succeed, reload, reload again.

[Raptorman]

Yeah, I tried again a little while later and it came up. I left a post in the forums.

[Anachronist]

At 6/16/01 10:34 PM, Raptorman wrote: I left a post in the forums.

And I just typed up a reply (I assume you were the one going by the name of "Big Mac").

Cheers.

[Slizor]

Cool1 I'm there.

[Anarchon]

At 6/16/01 09:17 PM, Anachronist wrote: I saw the communism discussion below, so I know that there is some interest in here in talking about evolution and communism.

For the most part, the arguments against communism were pretty bad, tired, and just plain wrong. On that note, some of the arguments for it were just as uninformed.

Anyway, the point of this post is to invite people over to my communism site, www.kazm.net (back in the day we were NG's first ever featured site).

I'm no regular to this forum, so I don't expect to be coming back for any discussion, but I encourage anybody interested to e-mail me or to post on my site's forum.

Thank ye.

"Communism is not a programme one puts into practice or makes others put into practice, but a social movement. Communism is not an ideal to be realised: it already exists, not as a society, but as an effort, a task to prepare for. It is the movement which tries to abolish the conditions of life determined by wage-labour and it will abolish them by revolution’ (Dauvé & Martin). Communism is not a utopian blueprint for the future nor has it got anything to do with the ‘communist’ regimes of the past where capitalism was managed by the state. Communism is the movement towards the abolition of states, classes, private property, money and hierarchies of power, and the collective creation of the means to satisfy our needs and desires."

- Antagonism Press

i love you!

[HornedReaper]

At 6/16/01 09:17 PM, Anachronist wrote: I saw the communism discussion below, so I know that there is some interest in here in talking about evolution and communism.

For the most part, the arguments against communism were pretty bad, tired, and just plain wrong. On that note, some of the arguments for it were just as uninformed.

Anyway, the point of this post is to invite people over to my communism site, www.kazm.net (back in the day we were NG's first ever featured site).

I'm no regular to this forum, so I don't expect to be coming back for any discussion, but I encourage anybody interested to e-mail me or to post on my site's forum.

Thank ye.

"Communism is not a programme one puts into practice or makes others put into practice, but a social movement. Communism is not an ideal to be realised: it already exists, not as a society, but as an effort, a task to prepare for. It is the movement which tries to abolish the conditions of life determined by wage-labour and it will abolish them by revolution’ (Dauvé & Martin). Communism is not a utopian blueprint for the future nor has it got anything to do with the ‘communist’ regimes of the past where capitalism was managed by the state. Communism is the movement towards the abolition of states, classes, private property, money and hierarchies of power, and the collective creation of the means to satisfy our needs and desires."

- Antagonism Press

Communism is bad because it stupidly lowers the work ethic of the people within the communist community.

[KaneOfNod]

Communism = no competition
no competetion = no incentive for becoming better
no incentive = no progress
no progress = failure
Communism = failure

[Slizor]

Communism = no competition
no competetion = no incentive for becoming better
no incentive = no progress
no progress = failure
Communism = failure

Your wrong, the incentive to become better is not competetion, it is to be better, i.e people want to be better, so they become better.

[KaneOfNod]

At 6/20/01 01:08 PM, Slizor wrote:

Communism = no competition
no competetion = no incentive for becoming better
no incentive = no progress
no progress = failure
Communism = failure

Your wrong, the incentive to become better is not competetion, it is to be better, i.e people want to be better, so they become better.

1. You're, not your.
2. If there is no real reason to be better, few people would bother. People don't always give a shit. If they did, the world would be a much better place. :D

[Anarchon]

At 6/20/01 01:25 PM, Phantom_Lord wrote:

At 6/20/01 01:08 PM, Slizor wrote:

Communism = no competition
no competetion = no incentive for becoming better
no incentive = no progress
no progress = failure
Communism = failure

Your wrong, the incentive to become better is not competetion, it is to be better, i.e people want to be better, so they become better.

1. You're, not your.
2. If there is no real reason to be better, few people would bother. People don't always give a shit. If they did, the world would be a much better place. :D

I always thought commmunism was hypocritical unless it was anarcho-communism

[KaneOfNod]

At 6/21/01 12:17 AM, Anarchon wrote:

At 6/20/01 01:25 PM, Phantom_Lord wrote:

At 6/20/01 01:08 PM, Slizor wrote:

Communism = no competition
no competetion = no incentive for becoming better
no incentive = no progress
no progress = failure
Communism = failure

Your wrong, the incentive to become better is not competetion, it is to be better, i.e people want to be better, so they become better.

1. You're, not your.
2. If there is no real reason to be better, few people would bother. People don't always give a shit. If they did, the world would be a much better place. :D

I always thought commmunism was hypocritical unless it was anarcho-communism

What does that mean? No government, but working under communism? I don't think that's possible.

[Slizor]

I always thought commmunism was hypocritical unless it was anarcho-communism

I assume by that you mean communism that ends up as anarchism. That is exactly what Marx said and since Marx baiscally made communism, it never was hypocritical

[Anarchon]

At 6/21/01 11:41 AM, Slizor wrote:

I always thought commmunism was hypocritical unless it was anarcho-communism

I assume by that you mean communism that ends up as anarchism. That is exactly what Marx said and since Marx baiscally made communism, it never was hypocritical

uve never heard of anarcho communism? its basically a mutualist bank system type thing- correct me if im wrong anachronist... anywho, i thought it was hyporitical because the pont is to be equal..... yet there are statesmen, etc.

[anhnonymous]

Okay...realistically who is going to work for you? And why should they? Why would anyone work at all? Wouldn't they be out trying to "satisfy their needs and desires. Shit we might as well go back to the cavemen days hunting and gathering. Fuck you, this elk is mine get your own. What dou you got for me? Communism is good? Some people will never learn. You must have been deprived when you were young. Watching... wishing...envying everything and everyone. I still don't see why communism would be good for your ID. Without free enterprise there would be no chance for anything. Why would you want a fixed price for everything? Without a free market there would be no progress, improvement or competition. Without competition the bar will never be raised. All your efforts would be wasted in preparing for a task that will never come. I heard Cuba is looking for some more taxpayers since their own constituents are finally finding out what communism really is. Why don't you try living over there with the same resources that they have before you preach about how good it is

[Slizor]

Okay...realistically who is going to work for you? And why should they? Why would anyone work at all? Wouldn't they be out trying to "satisfy their needs and desires. Shit we might as well go back to the cavemen days hunting and gathering. Fuck you, this elk is mine get your own. What dou you got for me? Communism is good? Some people will never learn. You must have been deprived when you were young. Watching... wishing...envying everything and everyone. I still don't see why communism would be good for your ID. Without free enterprise there would be no chance for anything. Why would you want a fixed price for everything? Without a free market there would be no progress, improvement or competition. Without competition the bar will never be raised. All your efforts would be wasted in preparing for a task that will never come. I heard Cuba is looking for some more taxpayers since their own constituents are finally finding out what communism really is. Why don't you try living over there with the same resources that they have before you preach about how good it is

There goes another idiot who argues mis-informed points, great! It would be a waste of a response to argue the points you have just said. The only thing I will say is that if the cubans are finally finding out what communism is then they would have had a revolt.

[anhnonymous]

if the cubans are finally finding out what communism is then they would have had a revolt.

So what are you saying then? They don't know any better or they would have revolted. Please...you waste your time on little things that you do not know about and your points are invalid to the subject. Uhhh...does the U.S.S.R ring a bell? Look who's running them now. The mob owns everything and everyone of importance. Ignorance is exploiting those who do not realiZe history. Please seek an adult to proofread your replies. You are showing your age. But i give you props for standing up to something that you believe in, unfortunately you are not aware of what you are getting yourself into. You can still take the red pill.

[Slizor]

So what are you saying then? They don't know any better or they would have revolted. Please...you waste your time on little things that you do not know about and your points are invalid to the subject.

Actually if you knew the slightest thing about what communism actually is you would see that cuba is not communist!

hh...does the U.S.S.R ring a bell? Look who's running them now. The mob owns everything and everyone of importance. Ignorance is exploiting those who do not realiZe history.

The U.S.S.R does ring a bell, the fact that communisn was never actually in the USSR also does. Just because they converted back to capitilism badly is nothing to do with Lenin.

Please seek an adult to proofread your replies. You are showing your age. But i give you props for standing up to something that you believe in, unfortunately you are not aware of what you are getting yourself into. You can still take the red pill.

What you are showing is ageism.
"You talk sense to a fool and he will call you foolish"

[IamJacksalias]

Communism? Any American that thinks Communism or even Socialism is good can get the hell out of my country, or join the Democrats. How many people died for the US to stop the spread of Commnnism? And if Communism is such a good thing than they all died for nothing. Communism in theory works. However when you look at the fact that people have a sin nature and the needs of the few will never be met by the needs of the many, you realize it is an empty endevor. People are greedy and look out for themselves. Yes there are good people, but no one can stand there and honestly tell me that all people are good deep down.
On a note that I don't much about and would like to, what countries are there that have Communism set up that are doing better that an the US?

[Timisoara]

Ok I'm gunna add my two cents.

First their needs to be two different posts, one for a knock down dragged out captalism vs. socialism debate, and another for a friendly anarcho-commie, marxist-commie or, everyone's favorite, fabian socialist debate.
This way there can be consitency in posts.

[Slizor]

Communism? Any American that thinks Communism or even Socialism is good can get the hell out of my country, or join the Democrats.

First of all, your country? Secondly we aren't all americans here and thirdly don't even attribute the demicrats to ANY leftist movement.

How many people died for the US to stop the spread of Commnnism? And if Communism is such a good thing than they all died for nothing.

Yep, it's true

Communism in theory works. However when you look at the fact that people have a sin nature and the needs of the few will never be met by the needs of the many, you realize it is an empty endevor. People are greedy and look out for themselves. Yes there are good people, but no one can stand there and honestly tell me that all people are good deep down.

Ok I'll sit here and type it.

On a note that I don't much about and would like to, what countries are there that have Communism set up that are doing better that an the US?

Cuba has a better education system than the US, but since there are no actual communist states we can't judge.

[IamJacksalias]

So basically you're saying you want to be communisitic for a better school system? Let me tell you something the problem with the US's system is the kids, there are others, but the major problem. No one cares and they pout nothing into school. You only get out of school what you put in. I could go on to what's wrong with the system, but that is for a different category.
How can you say that communsim would work out? You think people are generally good deep down and everyone would work for the same amount of money to achieve a common good? So the doctor that went to school for 10 years gets the same as the trash collector.

[Anachronist]

"The communist revolution is the continuation as well as the surpassing of present social movements. Discussions of communism usually start from an erroneous standpoint: they deal with the question of what people will do after the revolution. They never connect communism with what is going on at the moment when the discussion is going on. There is a complete rupture: first one makes the revolution, then communism. In fact communism is the continuation of real needs which are now already at work, but which cannot lead anywhere, which cannot be satisfied, because the present situation forbids it. Today there are numerous communist gestures and attitudes which express not only a refusal of the present world, but most of all an effort to build a new one. In so far as these do not succeed, one sees only their limits, only the tendency and not its possible continuation (the function of "extremist" groups is precisely to present these limits as the aims of the movement, and to strengthen them). In the refusal of assembly-line work, in the struggles of squatters, the communist perspective is present as an effort to create "something else," not on the basis of a mere rejection of the modern world (hippy), but through the use and transformation of what is produced and wasted. In such conflicts people spontaneously try to appropriate goods without obeying the logic of exchange; therefore they treat these goods as use values. Their relations to these things, and the relations they establish among themselves to perform such acts, are subversive. People even change themselves in such events The "something else" that these actions reach for is present in the actions only potentially, whatever those who organize them may think and want, and whatever the extremists who take part in them and theorize about them may do and say. Such movements will be forced to become conscious of their acts, to understand what they are doing, in order to do it better."

-----------

Forget Cuba, North Korea, USSR, Eastern Europe, China, Vietnam, Cambodia. Forget Lenin, forget Stalin, forget Mao. Forget government of any kind.

Your brave soldiers who died "preventing the spread of communism" were working-class and minority people who were sent to die by their capitalist masters in the name of global competition. They were lied to. The same thing happened on the other side. Because the USSR was capitalist, it also sent out thousands of workers to die in the name of the state.

It is useless and dangerous to argue against something like communism when you have no idea what it is (that is, think that USSR was communism).

Anarcho-Communism is the new word for what has been communism all along. This is why I don't use it, but yes, it is an accurate description of communism.

Also, the guy that said that the main problem with the US education system is the kids - are you stupid?

You expect me to believe that a Chicago school with no funding, no teachers, sewage leaks, a bad food program, and chemical factories on either side is going to function if the students just stop being little twats and work hard enough? Work with what? The books that they don't have?

The problems with the US school system lie mainly in the unequal distribution of wealth and funding from the bullshit property tax by which all money goes to rich white schools. Segregation continues to exist because the ruling elite has redrawn the district lines to their liking.

If we're gonna squabble, at least take it over to my site like I asked so we can get a better discussion going (as was the original intent of this post). Please, only the intelligent people need apply.

www.kazm.net

[IamJacksalias]

You want to talk race let's talk race. A study was done, you can find this if you look hard enough that all types of white children to better in school than all types of black children, on a majority. I am not saying anything about blacks or white, the study is. now the question I want to know is should white kids get more funding if they deserve it for doing better in school? I think the answer is yes. I would say the same thing if Hispanics were doing better than white kids. Give whoever does better more, why? They have earned it.
Show me some stats on how many school are like the ones you descibe with no teachers and books.
I am starting a seperate category to continue this disscussion.

[Anachronist]

Mr. IamJacksalias,

These statistics that you are pulling out of your ass do nothing to help your argument. Of course white kids do better in school because they on average go to much better schools in better neighborhoods. Also, being white, they are not affected by the overt racism in this society. Let's talk SAT's. White kids do better on the SAT's then do people of color. Why? Because rich white kids have rich white parents that can afford expensive programs like the Princeton Review, or private schools that will teach the kids the tricks to the SAT's. Standardized tests are, I'm sad to say, just another way that "whitey is keeping down the black man". It is a reflection of the entire school system.

Since you want to learn some more about the problems in our school systems, and you want some examples of poor schools in Chicago, I suggest that you pick up the book Savage Inequalities by Jonathan Kozol.

It's a short book, so I'm sure an intellectual like yourself can handle it. In there you will find plenty of evidence of the horrible conditions in America's schools. You will also find proof that the tax system does jack shit to help people, and you will find interviews with people who work in these schools to back these claims up.

If your position remains unchanged after reading that book, you're a bigger right-wing bonehead than I thought.

[anhnonymous]

At 7/3/01 05:56 PM, Anachronist wrote: "The communist revolution is the continuation as well as the surpassing of present social movements. Discussions of communism usually start from an erroneous standpoint: they deal with the question of what people will do after the revolution. They never connect communism with what is going on at the moment when the discussion is going on. There is a complete rupture: first one makes the revolution, then communism. In fact communism is the continuation of real needs which are now already at work, but which cannot lead anywhere, which cannot be satisfied, because the present situation forbids it. Today there are numerous communist gestures and attitudes which express not only a refusal of the present world, but most of all an effort to build a new one. In so far as these do not succeed, one sees only their limits, only the tendency and not its possible continuation (the function of "extremist" groups is precisely to present these limits as the aims of the movement, and to strengthen them). In the refusal of assembly-line work, in the struggles of squatters, the communist perspective is present as an effort to create "something else," not on the basis of a mere rejection of the modern world (hippy), but through the use and transformation of what is produced and wasted. In such conflicts people spontaneously try to appropriate goods without obeying the logic of exchange; therefore they treat these goods as use values. Their relations to these things, and the relations they establish among themselves to perform such acts, are subversive. People even change themselves in such events The "something else" that these actions reach for is present in the actions only potentially, whatever those who organize them may think and want, and whatever the extremists who take part in them and theorize about them may do and say. Such movements will be forced to become conscious of their acts, to understand what they are doing, in order to do it better."

Blah Blah Blah...This was a waste of time to read. This has no point whatsoever. Don't you fucking wish? Try again.

Forget Cuba, North Korea, USSR, Eastern Europe, China, Vietnam, Cambodia. Forget Lenin, forget Stalin, forget Mao. Forget government of any kind.

We would all love to forget those countries especially people like you because it makes communism look bad. Well no shit huh? Forget all the bad stuff and just think about the good. FUCK YOU! Who the hell do you think you are hitler. Let's just rewrite history all over again starting with carl marx discovering America!

Your brave soldiers who died "preventing the spread of communism" were working-class and minority people who were sent to die by their capitalist masters in the name of global competition. They were lied to. The same thing happened on the other side. Because the USSR was capitalist, it also sent out thousands of workers to die in the name of the state.

In the name of global competition? Without marines, soldiers, sailors and airmen this country would suffer to the hands of every other nation. Wake the fuck up! Without patriots defending this country, your ass would not be free to express your opinion. .

[Anachronist]

I'm sorry that the words in that first part were too big for you to understand. Oh well, a winner is not you.

At 7/3/01 09:40 PM, anhnonymous wrote: We would all love to forget those countries especially people like you because it makes communism look bad. Well no shit huh? Forget all the bad stuff and just think about the good. FUCK YOU! Who the hell do you think you are hitler. Let's just rewrite history all over again starting with carl marx discovering America!

Uh...

Ignoring the obvious misspelling of Karl Marx's name, I'd like to say that you missed my point entirely. I was only asking people to forget those things within the bounds of this conversation. I'm not trying to sweep history under the rug. It's not like I'm saying "oh, forget about the millions that died under Stalin - I promise it'll be better next time!"

What I mean is that if we are going to talk about the viability of communism, it is useless for EITHER SIDE of the argument to bring up Stalin, Lenin, Mao, etc. because they are not communists, they offer no "version" of communism, and they are no use to us. Ditto to their respective countries. So if you want to tell me why communism won't work, saying "the USSR collapsed" isn't going to convince me.

In the name of global competition? Without marines, soldiers, sailors and airmen this country would suffer to the hands of every other nation. Wake the fuck up! Without patriots defending this country, your ass would not be free to express your opinion.

I think you've been watching Pearl Harbor a little too much, man. I have nothing but respect - ok, I have a lot of pity, too - for every man and woman that has died for this country. I am not attacking them, I am attacking the wars that they fought in, the people that sent them to die in those wars, and the lies that were told to the public about those wars. Every conflict that I can think of has something to do with capitalist interests and very little to do with freedom or democracy.

Even the "virtous" WW2 seems foolish in light of the extensive American business that was being done with Hitler prior to the conflict (yes, that involves the Bush family and IBM). We fought the germans not because of some pressing need to promote democracy (we only started saying that after the war began) but because they were allied with the Japanese, who had attacked us.

And as for that attack in Pearl Harbor, the American government saw it coming a mile away, but let it happen so that they would have an excuse to fight a war in the Pacific and begin imperialist operations there (Philippines, South Korea). America even sacrificed over 200,000 Japanese civilians to the Atomic Bomb so that the war could be over soon and "Russia will not get in on the kill" according to the Secretary of State at the time, James Byrnes.

And don't pull the argument that the bombs were dropped to save the supposed 1 million American soldiers that would have died invading Japan. America had long before the bombs been intercepting Japanese messages, and more than 2 weeks before Hiroshima, Truman and Churchill had been talking about a "telgram from Jap emperor asking for peace." (from Truman's diary, dated July 18, 1945)

Capitalism is war. War is hell. There is nothing democratic or virtuous about it.

[Slizor]

You want to talk race let's talk race. A study was done, you can find this if you look hard enough that all types of white children to better in school than all types of black children, on a majority. I am not saying anything about blacks or white, the study is. now the question I want to know is should white kids get more funding if they deserve it for doing better in school? I think the answer is yes. I would say the same thing if Hispanics were doing better than white kids. Give whoever does better more, why? They have earned it.

So the people who need the resources the most doesn't get them?

[IamJacksalias]

So the people who need the resources the most doesn't get them?

We should give resources to people who will do nothing with them and waste tax dollars? While the people who do well in school get the shaft and no reward for working hard? The problem with this country is that we need to start dealing with our own problems and stop trying to fix everyone else's. If you have seen South Park you will understand why I refer to this as Kyle's Mom Syndrome.