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At 6/27/03 01:22 PM, nitroxide wrote: I said that god knows the future...or is this a lie constanly told in the bible?

I'm not a Christian myself so I haven't studied the Bible in depth. I only used it as an example because you seemed to focus on Christianity. Still, I'll take a crack at interpritting these lines.

Hebrews 4:13b says, "Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account".

This means that God sees all of our sins. As in the stuff we've DONE in the past.

No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"-I Corinthians 2:9

Translation: All good boys and girls go to heavan which is an unimaginably cool place to be.

They state that god has plans and knows what each person has in store for them.Then how is this freewill?

I don't believe everything in any religious scripture and I don't think anyone should, too many years have gone by and too many people have had a chance to "revise them". But, if that's true, it just means that God can predict our actions. Being predictable is not the same as not having free will.

No i wont use that argument.Ill be a psylosophical as you.If the ball never fell it is because it was never meant to fall.The ball was seen by me and meant to be seen.

Maybe, but you are still agreeing that some mystical force decides what will and will not happen. Be it God, or fate, or the magical goblins of Uranus. Your arguement is based on belief, just like religion.

OK BUT IF A WOMEN WAS GETTING RAPED AND YOU DID NOTHING TO STOP IT YOU ARE JUST AS EVIL...o wait you choose to not prevent it but you dont support it...thats rich...LOL.

First of all, I wouldn't be "just as evil." A person that doesn't prevent evil isn't equally guilty. Just partially. Besides, this is something base on our moral code which says that you should help your fellow man. We're not fellow anything to God. Besides, his job is to forgive, our job is to act.

Evil isnt supposed to be a action of man but a fallen spirit to temptation,he wouldnt stop us he would stop the devil.Or are you saying that the devil is within us.Then i ask you again...If evil exist and we are a reflection of god is god evil"?

No, I don't believe that there's a guy with hooves and a pitchfork inside me. I also don't believe that people who do evil are the devil in human form. I'm not a Christian, I don't really think about the devil that much. But think of what the world would be like if God did prevent all evil. We'd be stuck in Pleasantville for all eternity. What would be the point of existence? There can be no good without evil. As for us being a reflexion of God, I just don't get how that could be.

I will always believe that religion is a tool to contol the masses and nothing more.

Good for you. Let everyone else believe what they want.

I will,i really dont give a shit if you want to be another blind sheep,but when you respond to my post dont expect me not to give you an answer.

Do you hear yourself. If you put people down for their beliefs, you're not letting them believe what they want.

Disclaimer: Everything I wrote here is based on the assumption that there is a God. I'm not arguing that God exists, only that his existence is possible. Feel free to believe what you want.

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At 6/27/03 01:40 PM, nitroxide wrote: I know what your saying...hey i wouldnt argue as much as i do about christianity if everyone in it was like NED FLANDERS(SIMPSONS)but i cant stand the hipocracy of it.

Lol, I hear ya. I can't stand those people either. Believe me, I give people as much a glare as you might when the ask me if I know Jesus ^_^

No maybe it isnt coincidence...maybe the bible was written by certain people in power(I HAD THE LINK BUT THE SITE HAS BEEN SUSPENDED....hmmmm...?)That knew the events or caused certain events to occur."Behold the pale horse" the authour now dead and once a military personal based in hawaii stated that he saw documents of events that would occurs 20 years later(JFK ASSASINATION,BERLIN WALL FALL).Anyone can read into the bible and interpret it any way. Hey jesus wasnt even crucified yet they misinterepreted that.

Exactly. It was stated by the church (and I think the Bible states it too, but I'm iffy on that one.) that the Bible should NEVER be interpreted like that. These people who are doing so are completely mutilating the words. I completely agree with you that people who interpret the bible can mold it into whatever they want. As for people like Ezekial, he definitely held no power. As for Jesus not being crucified, it's commonly believed that the ancient writings of the Quaran state that he wasn't. This is absolutely false. The meanings and precice words of that part of the Quaran have been twisted to prove a false point. If you take a look at the words and decipher them to their exact meaning, you'll find that it in no way says that Jesus was not crucified. On the contrary, saying that he was crucified is a completely valid argument. If I can find something that exposes that, I'll post a link; provided you're interested. Only the writings of what blatantly say has happened and will happen are to be taken into account. People using all this hocus pocus to "decipher" the bible are freakin' crazy man. Too many phsycos in this world 0_0

I dont know if you know this...but the reason your computer is working and the refrigerator is running and many other things work so properly...is because eof science and math.I know the flaws of the bing bang theory it has about 13 ask me and i will gladly give them to you...but that is besides the point you see at least one day this could be proven or disproven(BY TRUTH IN MATH AND SCIENCE),but it will take god himself to come down and touch me for me to believe in a deity never seen felt heard...or proven.

I never said science wasn't a big part of our lives, only that it can never give us all the answers we want. Science is mans most powerful tool, but it can't by any means solve everything. In terms of the Big Bang theory, I was only trying to point out what science would call matter (antimatter?) outside of our own universe? Unless one believes that the Universe is eternal and neverending, there must be something out there. But to prove it by any means of science only gives you numbers and theory to look at. Unless we go there or see it, it will remain something as science itself can not see, feel, hear, or prove; only theorize, as it does life and religion.

Oh, and I never got to my feelings on the energy theory. I do think it holds truth to a point, but the problem is in thinking that God made himself. God did not make himself, He has always existed, has no beginning, no end. Once again, this can not be concieved through scientific means, much like many things in this world, but through supernatural. I did look at your link to the Encarta, I found it a very interesting read, but there are still too many gaps in the theory of australopithecines being the first key. For one, evolutionists still try to ignore the Olduvai Gorge stone and proclaim that "anything could have made it, water, wind, etc." Even though the stone is 14 feet in diameter and is in no way indigenous to the area. Two, there are footprints off someplace in Tanzania evolutionists clame could be anything, even though they're strikingly resembling of modern feet and go against any ape-life footprint to be found at that time. Even though the evidence is right there, they brush it off and say that australopithecines or something else could have made it; BS. Three, those fossiles in the Encarta say that they show distinguising features that resemble Ape and Man but those structures are already formed. If there is progression in these fossiles taking place, why is it they can't find those progressions taking place? They're always fully formed. Four, The theory of evolution has no answer to how life got started; it simply ignores it or goes way out there with wishful thinking. And five, with the man-made Olduvai gorge stone, it shows that humans were contemporaries with whatever link was "supposed" to be us. Going way before the evolutionist time scale.

Heres a link with some info: http://www.geocities.com/agseventyfour/CompositeFossilChart.html

The fossile KP271 is interesting, but even with the all the other fossils found that strikingly resemble humans after that, footprints, etc, there's much, much more evidence to go around if one or the other is "brushed away" because it doesn't fit the evolutionist time scale.

Phew, that was a mouthful..err..writeful...whatever. Anyways, just to clear it up, I know what you mean by arguing with Christians because of the horrid amount of hypocracy floating around. I try to keep an open mind and learn as much as I can (wich is why I appreciated the Encarta link), so it makes me especially sick when I see people ("Christians", unfortunately) calling someone stupid or brushing off their beliefs as rubbish without even looking into it. Ugh, I'd like to bitch slap a few off the top of my head right now. So I know where you're comming from.

Oh, btw, did you watch that Walking With Cavemen flick on the DC? While I didn't particularly agree with it, I found it pretty interesting (though I could have done without that naked old lady).

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At 6/27/03 02:16 PM, nitroxide wrote: My energy theory dint work for you...yet you can believe god made himself?

Where did God come from? We cannot know. All laws of science only apply in this universe, really. Beyond, we cannot even fathom.

I believe God is in the details, in a sense. He exists as information and probability, mainly.

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There are two ways to imagine the Universe, both theories are questions of philosophy.

One way is to say that God created matter.

Another is Science, so far, it describes the "formation" of the Universe, but is not yet a "Creationist" theory, as is relies on the big bang, i.e.that matter already exists...

Interestingly many Scientists believed in God, Einstein for example.Many think that science describes the will of God and doesn't exclude this possibility, maybe one day it will, who knows.

The fact that religion is 'used' by people to push political ends and violence is sad, but then to dismiss the philosophies contained within religion because of that isn't logical...

Judaic religion deals with ideas such as the possibility of alternative dimensions and the true nature of matter, an electron can co-exist in two spaces at the same time...yet this science was unknown to these early philosophers...

Science is only "descriptive" at this stage, so there is a gap in our knowledge.

Without religion we wouldn't search to bridge the gap, as it contains imaginative ideas about matter and it's nature, that makes us want to explore more...how can this be bad ?

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People can practice ANY forms of religion,as logn it does not inhibit the free will or harm others.

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At 6/27/03 06:10 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 6/27/03 02:16 PM, nitroxide wrote:

Where did God come from? We cannot know. All laws of science only apply in this universe, really. Beyond, we cannot even fathom.

Could you tell me how you know that there are laws beyond science.

I believe God is in the details, in a sense. He exists as information and probability, mainly.

So basically lies made by humans.

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At 6/27/03 06:58 PM, Sophia_7 wrote:

Interestingly many Scientists believed in God, Einstein for example.Many think that science describes the will of God and doesn't exclude this possibility, maybe one day it will, who knows.

BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD 1914 1933 1998

Personal belief 27.7 15 7.0
Personal disbelief 52.7 68 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.9 17 20.8

BELIEF IN IMMORTALITY 1914 1933 1998

Personal belief 35.2 18 7.9
Personal disbelief 25.4 53 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 43.7 29 23.3

from here

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At 6/28/03 12:46 PM, grand_retard wrote:

At 6/27/03 06:58 PM, Sophia_7 wrote:

Interestingly many Scientists believed in God, Einstein for example.Many think that science describes the will of God and doesn't exclude this possibility, maybe one day it will, who knows.

BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD 1914 1933 1998

Personal belief 27.7 15 7.0
Personal disbelief 52.7 68 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.9 17 20.8

BELIEF IN IMMORTALITY 1914 1933 1998

Personal belief 35.2 18 7.9
Personal disbelief 25.4 53 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 43.7 29 23.3

from here

the spacing didn't work, so here it is again;

BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD

Personal belief: 1914 - 27.7%, 1933 - 15, 1998 - 7.0
Personal disbelief: 1914 - 52.7, 1933 - 68, 1998 - 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism: 1914 - 20.9, 1933 - 17, 1998 -20.8

BELIEF IN IMMORTALITY

Personal belief 1914 - 35.2, 1933 - 18, 1998 - 7.9
Personal disbelief 1914 - 25.4, 1933 - 53, 1998 - 76.7
Doubt or agnosticism 1914 - 43.7, 1933 - 29, 1998 -23.3

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"God" and "Religion" and most importantly "Salvation" are the biggest, evilest yet most successful lies ever told. Especially annoying Jehovah's Witnesses. Sure, they have the right to believe whatever crap they want, but in the end, I will still throw shit at them when they come to save me.

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Hopefully, some of you will have the patience to read this. It might be long.

As a Christian woman, I believe in evolution WITHIN creation. That is, I believe God created the universe (OH MY GOD, maybe with the Big Bang!) and creatures have evolved on this earth since then. From apes to human? I don't believe that. I think that's going a little far. But there's proof of evolution withing shorter amounts of time, adaptation to environment, all that. So. Evolution within creation is what I choose to believe.

Now, this is where I get into the God stuff. Those of you that get bored quickly, stay with me. It won't take me long.

I believe:

God created us in His image. Therefore, he's felt every emotion that we have. He's jealous, mean, angry, and demands perfection. But he's also a loving God. He knows that his standards are too high for us. He made us almost perfectly...but damned Eve. She got nosey, and because God was good enough to give us free will, Eve chose to know instead of living in obscurity.

So, here we are. Imperfect. In a world with a God that demands perfection. For years and years he made rules for us to try to follow, to get closer to him, to emulate him, to BE that perfection he demanded, but eventually? He realized that it was too much to ask us. I mean...he DID try to fix his mistake with the whole flood thing, but Noah's family wasn't as sinless as he thought. So here he was again, with these bad children running amok on Earth, and he decides that he loves us SO much, that he want's us with him again badly enough that he's going to give us an out.

He gave us Christ.

He decided that he would send that perfection to Earth, he would become a man for 33 years, and show us what it is to be the perfection that he demanded...then he decided to give us a way to him. God, because he's perfect, wanted us to be perfect for him. He's inviting us into his house, and...I dunno about you? But I like the fact that I can pick and choose who enters my home. God is doing the same thing. But he made it so, so easy. He gave us an easy way. He gave us a tool, if you will, to use instead of the perfection he demands.

Christ is that tool. Christ is God's way of saying, "I'm sorry I expected you to be perfect. I can't change my mind about that. But here...here's Someone to be perfect for you. Believe this, believe that this is the price you'd have to pay. If you believe this, I'll let you in. Even if you aren't perfect. This redeems you."

I won't get saved on merit badges. I won't get saved by donating to charities or monthly tithes or doing good deeds. The one and only mediator between the imperfection we humans are, and our perfect God, is Christ.

All the rules? All the uppity bullshit that people slap on you when you're kids, with the titles and the prayers and the rosaries or whatever...that's all man-written. That's all to serve man. It's not God's doctrine. God's only doctrine was: "Believe that Christ died so I can see you again."

Simple, eh?

Am I preaching to you? No. This is what I believe. This is why I get so...I dunno. Frustrated with people who are down on religion without understanding the basics of Christianity. Not CHURCH. But Christ.

More Jesus. Less religion. That's what I believe. I respect everyone's opinions. I just wish people would learn the difference between faith and doctrine. You can argue doctrine. You can't argue faith. :)

One last thing...for all you scientists out there. I hear a lot: "Prove to me that God exsists."

My answer:

"Prove to me that He doesn't."

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At 6/28/03 09:21 PM, House_Of_Leaves wrote: As a Christian woman, I believe in evolution WITHIN creation. That is, I believe God created the universe (OH MY GOD, maybe with the Big Bang!) and creatures have evolved on this earth since then.

That's interesting logic. Have you ever considered that maybe God created humans using evolution?

(Don't worry, I'm not trying to mock you.)

From apes to human? I don't believe that. I think that's going a little far. But there's proof of evolution withing shorter amounts of time, adaptation to environment, all that. So. Evolution within creation is what I choose to believe.

I've heard that alot. I have never heard why some find the idea of humans themselves being derived from evolutionary processes so ridiculous, however. Care to elaborate?

One last thing...for all you scientists out there. I hear a lot: "Prove to me that God exsists."

My answer:

"Prove to me that He doesn't."

No offense, but I don't think that's a very fair generalization of scientists. I happen to be something of an aspiring scientist and am not at all the type who use my background to argue against the existence of God. (I've even begun reading the Bible just for the heck of it. *GASP!*)

I believe that those people who are so closed-minded to alternative viewpoints have no right to call themselves scientists. A true scientist always leaves him/herself open to alternative viewpoints and NEVER considers what he/she knows so far as "final," "true," or "correct."

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At 6/28/03 11:19 PM, FreidanX wrote:

At 6/28/03 09:21 PM, House_Of_Leaves wrote: As a Christian woman, I believe in evolution WITHIN creation. That is, I believe God created the universe (OH MY GOD, maybe with the Big Bang!) and creatures have evolved on this earth since then.

That's interesting logic. Have you ever considered that maybe God created humans using evolution?

(Don't worry, I'm not trying to mock you.)

No, I figured you weren't. :) I could tell by the civil tongue you used. Thank you.

Yes, I have considered it. I've thought about it a lot. In fact, I practiced Wicca for years. I've studied and know about a lot of other religions and practices. I've educated myself, simply because I didn't want to make an uneducated choice.

I've thought about that quite a bit. Honestly? It could be true that God utilized evolution to create us. However, it's said that he created us in his image. I don't think my God is an ape. :)

However. He did create the animals first. Who's to say how long God's days are? Maybe he decided that apes were a good starting point? Maybe that's the explanation for the dinosaurs. Maybe one of God's days are millions of years for us. We will never, ever know. That's what I've let go of. Trying to comprehend God. I'm human. I can't comprehend something or someone so much bigger than myself. :)

In short? Sure, that could be exactly it. Until I see His face, and I'm able to ask Him, I won't know. Believe me, I plan on asking a LOT of questions. ;)

From apes to human? I don't believe that. I think that's going a little far. But there's proof of evolution withing shorter amounts of time, adaptation to environment, all that. So. Evolution within creation is what I choose to believe.

I've heard that alot. I have never heard why some find the idea of humans themselves being derived from evolutionary processes so ridiculous, however. Care to elaborate?

Actually, it's not rediculous to me. I can understand it, and why it's such a readily believed idea. Just because I choose not to believe it, doesn't mean I don't understand it, or understand why others believe it.

One last thing...for all you scientists out there. I hear a lot: "Prove to me that God exsists."

My answer:

"Prove to me that He doesn't."

No offense, but I don't think that's a very fair generalization of scientists. I happen to be something of an aspiring scientist and am not at all the type who use my background to argue against the existence of God. (I've even begun reading the Bible just for the heck of it. *GASP!*)

I believe that those people who are so closed-minded to alternative viewpoints have no right to call themselves scientists. A true scientist always leaves him/herself open to alternative viewpoints and NEVER considers what he/she knows so far as "final," "true," or "correct."

Actually, that wasn't meant to be a generalization. I'm sorry if it was taken as such. It's just that most people who are so steadfast in their belief of the scientific orgins of earth and humans...they are the ones that ask me to prove God exsists. I don't get asked that by many Christians, or many spiritual people, period. Usually it's hardnosed athiests or those that believe only in science. That's what I meant by 'scientists'. :) Hope that makes sense.

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For my views on religion, check out this post:
http://www.newgrounds.com/bbs/topic.php?id=75367

Also, I believe in BOTH the Evolution and Creation theory. Afterall, much of the Bible is written in metaphors. When it said that God "made Adam from the clay of the Earth," I don't really believe that they meant God actually took clay with his invisible hands, made a human, and "poof" made the human come alive from dirt. lol.

I think that the clay of the earth is a metaphor for the small creatures of the earth, like the small, single-celled species. I think that "using the clay of the earth to form man" meant that God used the already existing creatures to form man through evolution. That's all. ^_^

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Oh, also, might I add that I don't think God has as much of an influence in our daily lives and future as some people think. I think that God just influences the ways of the world overall, like just an powerful unseen force or law that governs the ways of existence. Like, "nature," almost.

In fact, for those of you who question where God came from, you also have to then ask where existence itself even came from (and I don't mean "deep space" or anything, I mean the ability to "be"). There aren't any "statistics" or chances that existence itself would suddenly....."exist." Or that matter or light would suddenly....."exist from nothing." Without existence, even the statistics for that happening wouldn't exist. How could they? lol.

I mean. Was there ever a chance that existance wouldn't have happened? And I'm not using empty space as a "lack of existance," because empty space is an existance as well. I mean, absolutely nothing, no consiousness or space at all.

If you can believe in such a strange thing as existence itself, then I don't think a God would be such a crazy idea in comparison. lol.
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And finally, if God really did control all of us so much, then why would he even have to lecture us on being good in the first place if he could just force us to be good? God doesn't want to control everyone like that. We are supposed to be good of our own will and live our own lives for him. I don't think He wants to get involved. At least, that's how I feel.

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My views on religion? To each, their own. However I think that raising children in a over-religious environment can only close their eyes to toerh faiths and assume that "Muslims are all evil" or in another situation, realise how they've been blinded by their indoctrination and turn against their former religion in a bad way. (How many Satanists were raised as Christians?) I think that children can be raised in their own religion but they really should be aware of other religions that exist so they aren't raised in a "I'm right, you're wrong" mindset.

I speak from personal experience: I was baptized and raised as a good Christian and at a younger age I believed that other religions were wrong and then I realized that there was a lot of truths to other religions and I became severely disgusted with my former religion and became your tipical Bible-basher, later on I converted to Buddhism but then I realised that I'd be better of following the advice of many religions instead of just sticking to one. I'm an atheist since I don't believe in a god abut I do believe in the benefits of some, if not, most religous teachings.

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At 6/29/03 01:10 AM, House_Of_Leaves wrote: I've thought about that quite a bit. Honestly? It could be true that God utilized evolution to create us. However, it's said that he created us in his image. I don't think my God is an ape. :)

There's often a lot of contention over the "in his image" statement but can that be taken literally when you're talking about a God without apparent form? I believe that "in his image" refers to modes of thought and patterns of intelligence. We think along the same lines that God thinks, just not on the same scale.

Or, you could take it literally in a different way. If God exists in superspacetime that contains many universes, each universe could potentially be considered akin to an "image", sort of like a disc image. We were created within one of those images.

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At 6/29/03 10:47 PM, Commander-K25 wrote: There's often a lot of contention over the "in his image" statement but can that be taken literally when you're talking about a God without apparent form? I believe that "in his image" refers to modes of thought and patterns of intelligence. We think along the same lines that God thinks, just not on the same scale.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't necessarily think that God has a gender or a physical 'image' to copy. But even then, if we think along the same lines, I still have trouble believing that God has the mind of an ape, no matter how intelligent of an animal they are.

But! Whoever brought up the 'from the dust' idea (Ninja, I think) touched on something I've thought about, too. Taking the bible literally can be a little dangerous. I would have been stoned (not the fun way) many times over if I was surrounded by people who took the bible word for word. So when it's said that Adam was built from the dust...it very well might mean that it was an evolution from a single celled critter on the ground.

As I said before, we human beings can't comprehend, in my opinion, the thoughts or life of God. So who's to say how long his days are? Millions, billions of years? Or perhaps he accelerated the evolution of that cell from the years and years it might have taken...to, say...under a minute?

God can do that sort of thing, I think. ;)

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At 6/27/03 06:03 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

At 6/27/03 01:22 PM, nitroxide wrote:

I'm not a Christian myself so I haven't studied the Bible in depth.

You really should..its a great bedtime story...

I only used it as an example because you seemed to focus on Christianity.

I focused on Christianity becuase of the hypocracy now if you want to talk about absurd devine events...we can..or how about devine interventions at freewill.(Im refering to islam,if you dont know)

Still, I'll take a crack at interpritting these lines.

So will i...

Hebrews 4:13b says, "Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account".

This means that God sees all of our sins. As in the stuff we've DONE in the past

Everything is put in front of him,past present,and future.

No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"-I Corinthians 2:9

Translation: All good boys and girls go to heavan which is an unimaginably cool place to be.

Hehehe...so is Nirvana.
It means,noone knows the plan that god has set for them.

I don't believe everything in any religious scripture and I don't think anyone should, too many years have gone by and too many people have had a chance to "revise them".

Excerpt from,M.M. Mangasarian's the truth about jesus:
To help there cause the christian apologist not infrequently also changed the sense of certain Old Testament passages to make them support the miraculous stories in the new testament.For exambl,having "borrowed" from oriental books the story of the god in the manger,sorrounded by staring animals,the christian fathers introduced a prediction of this event into the following text from the book of habakkuk in the bible:"Accomplish thy work in the midst of the years,in the midst of the years make known etc."(hebrews iii 2).This Old Testament text appeared in greek translation as follows:"Thou shalt manifest thyself in the midst of two animals,"which was fufilled ofcourse,when jesus was born in a stable.How weak must ones case be to resort to such tactics in order to command a following!

The word Never existed it was put in hundreds of years ahead of supposed doctrines...Look up the Christian Forgery,it shows that the Christian fathers made up the word.

But, if that's true, it just means that God can predict our actions. Being predictable is not the same as not having free will.

"God had a plan for you"-Local priest around my neighborhood(when i asked him why god put us here)

Not predict, PLAN so he knows what i will do he has me mapped out therefore there is no freewill.Look at people like Martin Luther King jr god had a plan for him right therefore he dint have freewill to decide his life,it was planned by god thus canceling out freewill.

Maybe, but you are still agreeing that some mystical force decides what will and will not happen. Be it God, or fate, or the magical goblins of Uranus. Your arguement is based on belief, just like religion.

hehehe...i dint make up the analogy...mine's would be more science oriented.I dont believe in god or the devil or any goblins from ur-anus(Im sorry i couldnt resist,its not a flame.)therefore i dont believe i was put here with a plan set.I TRULY can believe i have freewill...

First of all, I wouldn't be "just as evil." A person that doesn't prevent evil isn't equally guilty. Just partially.

Should Manson be free?He dint commit any murder...he just told them to do it and they commited the actions.He was willing to say it they were willing to do it.Who has morals?

Besides, this is something base on our moral code which says that you should help your fellow man.

Exactly why not base everything on standards morals than on religion.I dont need religion not to kill or for that matter save a women from getting raped but do you?

We're not fellow anything to God.

What!!!You are supposed to obey and praise his word and his existence above all else....

Besides, his job is to forgive, our job is to act.

And look at our actions...
Besides that is digusting...you show up at the gates of heaven and your excuse to god is"Im only human"...LOL...

No, I don't believe that there's a guy with hooves and a pitchfork inside me. I also don't believe that people who do evil are the devil in human form. I'm not a Christian, I don't really think about the devil that much. But think of what the world would be like if God did prevent all evil. We'd be stuck in Pleasantville for all eternity.

No we would believe in a god know the truth forget the bullshit realize that we are all brothers...and excel and not sin for the good of all brotherhood(and siterhood...)

There can be no good without evil.

Hahaha!!!!I cant believe that...that is a government implanted idea.I wont say nothing futher there.

As for us being a reflexion of God, I just don't get how that could be.

Neither do i...and it disproves numerous religions...

Do you hear yourself. If you put people down for their beliefs, you're not letting them believe what they want.

Look maybe im just trying to help the lost...

DISCLAIMER: Everything I wrote here is based on the assumption that there is NO God. I'm not arguing that God doesnt exists, only that his existence is Impossible. Feel free to believe what you want.

I know all about playing Devils advocate to debate and for the sake of debate...im DAG afterall...

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At 6/27/03 06:03 PM, darkmage8 wrote:

At 6/27/03 01:40 PM, nitroxide wrote:

Lol, I hear ya. I can't stand those people either. Believe me, I give people as much a glare as you might when the ask me if I know Jesus ^_^

hehehe...

Exactly. It was stated by the church (and I think the Bible states it too, but I'm iffy on that one.) that the Bible should NEVER be interpreted like that. These people who are doing so are completely mutilating the words.: I completely agree with you that people who interpret the bible can mold it into whatever they want. As for people like Ezekial, he definitely held no power.

Exactly therefore they made a book(Bible)for the masses to follow....its misinterepreted but followed right?

As for Jesus not being crucified, it's commonly believed that the ancient writings of the Quaran state that he wasn't. This is absolutely false. The meanings and precice words of that part of the Quaran have been twisted to prove a false point. If you take a look at the words and decipher them to their exact meaning, you'll find that it in no way says that Jesus was not crucified. On the contrary, saying that he was crucified is a completely valid argument. If I can find something that exposes that, I'll post a link; provided you're interested.

According to the book "Babylon Mystery Religion", the cross originated among the ancient Babylonians of Chaldea. From there, it spread to ancient China, India, Mexico, parts of Africa and other places, long before in fact centuries before Christianity was born.

Hell,the symbol of a man on the cross dint appear until 800 years after his supposed crucifixion.If anything jesus was hung,luke wrote about the two thieves:"One of the malefactors that was hanged with him."The christians at early times were called the "followers of the god that was hanged".

Although some accounts say that he was convicted and turned over to the Romans for execution, 1 Thess. 2:14- 15, an undoubtedly genuine letter of Paul, and probably the oldest book in the entire NT, plainly states that Jesus was killed by the Jews. Assuming this to be correct, Jesus could not possibly have been crucified.

He was stoned, then hung from a tree, contrary to later writings that blamed the whole thing on the Romans.
Acts 5:30 - "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree."

Acts 10:39 - "whom they slew and hanged on a tree." Acts 13:29 - "they took him down from the tree."

1 Peter 2:24 - "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree." Galatians 3:13: - "Christ . . . being made a curse for us . . .Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."

Not from the quaran...

Deuteronomy is the source of Jewish Law that proclaimed the manner in which somebody guilty of blasphemy MUST be punished. Even in John 8:3-11, it is clear that stoning was the means of execution by the Jews. There are numerous references to stoning in the OT; the KJ Concordance lists 29 references in the OT to offenders being stoned or the bery "to stone." The reference for hanging the offender on a tree afterward, this is approved in Deuteronomy 21:22-23, with the stipulation that the body be taken down by nightfall. It was a long-standing practice to not mete out any punishment unless it was sanctioned in the Scriptures, and there is ample precedent for offenders being dealth with this way. Esther 2:23, two men who have plotted against the king are hanged in a tree. Others in the OT were also hanged, but not necessarily in trees. The victim is not hanged by the neck, as he is already dead, but is suspended by his hands, which are tied together above his head. If the Jews had executed Jesus by crucifying him, they did so in repudiation of their own Law...Source.

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Continued...

Only the writings of what blatantly say has happened and will happen are to be taken into account. People using all this hocus pocus to "decipher" the bible are freakin' crazy man. Too many phsycos in this world 0_0

Which is the majority...if we cant account for the true word what are we to follow...why not set up a system based on high morality...not religion.

I never said science wasn't a big part of our lives, only that it can never give us all the answers we want. Science is mans most powerful tool, but it can't by any means solve everything.

In due time...science isnt gonna give up and miracoulous cling to a omnipresent deity and believe that.

In terms of the Big Bang theory, I was only trying to point out what science would call matter (antimatter?) outside of our own universe? Unless one believes that the Universe is eternal and neverending, there must be something out there. But to prove it by any means of science only gives you numbers and theory to look at. Unless we go there or see it, it will remain something as science itself can not see, feel, hear, or prove; only theorize, as it does life and religion.

It has a formula that can Prove that a certain event will occur or a certain reaction will take place.If i mix vinegar and baking soda what will happen?I dont actually have to do it to know what will happen.

Oh, and I never got to my feelings on the energy theory. I do think it holds truth to a point, but the problem is in thinking that God made himself. God did not make himself, He has always existed, has no beginning, no end.

I never said there is a god in my theory only energy and if you can believe that god always existed then what about energy its proven it never dies just changes therefore it always was...

Once again, this can not be concieved through scientific means, much like many things in this world, but through supernatural. I did look at your link to the Encarta, I found it a very interesting read, but there are still too many gaps in the theory of australopithecines being the first key. For one, evolutionists still try to ignore the Olduvai Gorge stone and proclaim that "anything could have made it, water, wind, etc." Even though the stone is 14 feet in diameter and is in no way indigenous to the area. Two, there are footprints off someplace in Tanzania evolutionists clame could be anything, even though they're strikingly resembling of modern feet and go against any ape-life footprint to be found at that time. Even though the evidence is right there, they brush it off and say that australopithecines or something else could have made it; BS. Three, those fossiles in the Encarta say that they show distinguising features that resemble Ape and Man but those structures are already formed. If there is progression in these fossiles taking place, why is it they can't find those progressions taking place? They're always fully formed. Four, The theory of evolution has no answer to how life got started; it simply ignores it or goes way out there with wishful thinking. And five, with the man-made Olduvai gorge stone, it shows that humans were contemporaries with whatever link was "supposed" to be us. Going way before the evolutionist time scale.

Is it easier to believe in a omnipresent being that always was and made every single thing in this universe...I wonder if aliens believe in God?

The theory of evolution has no answer to how life got started;

From a single cell organism...

Heres a link with some info: http://www.geocities.com/agseventyfour/CompositeFossilChart.html

Very interesting...Thank you.

The fossile KP271 is interesting, but even with the all the other fossils found that strikingly resemble humans after that, footprints, etc, there's much, much more evidence to go around if one or the other is "brushed away" because it doesn't fit the evolutionist time scale.

It is a Fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a Fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a Fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a Fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a Fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.CHECK IT!

Phew, that was a mouthful..err..writeful...whatever. Anyways, just to clear it up, I know what you mean by arguing with Christians because of the horrid amount of hypocracy floating around. I try to keep an open mind and learn as much as I can (wich is why I appreciated the Encarta link), so it makes me especially sick when I see people ("Christians", unfortunately) calling someone stupid or brushing off their beliefs as rubbish without even looking into it. Ugh, I'd like to bitch slap a few off the top of my head right now. So I know where you're comming from.

Thank you i appreciate your understanding...i brush off christianity and catholisism in general because of the hypocracy and the blasphemy...out right lies...i also have a deep love for knowledge...i think knowledge should be a religion combined with music.I dont hate religion i think buddism and taoism and even islam are beautiful but with all religions i find problems...

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At 6/30/03 03:16 AM, House_Of_Leaves wrote:

Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't necessarily think that God has a gender or a physical 'image' to copy. But even then, if we think along the same lines, I still have trouble believing that God has the mind of an ape, no matter how intelligent of an animal they are.

Well, if God did make us into his image from an ape, then that didn't mean that he had to "evolve" from one, too. It would just mean that he took the clay of the earth (already existing creatures, like apes), and then made them into his "image," a "human" (supposedly). If God had made us into apes, then, yes, the Bible would be saying that he was an ape. lol. So, the only way God would be an ape, would be if he took the clay of the earth....and turned it into the clay of the earth (left it alone). But sense it said that he TURNED the clay of the earth INTO HIS IMAGE, MAN. Then, yes, it would be saying that he was a "man."

Anyhoo, I too believe that the Bible was refering to a particular mentality or I should say a special type of awarness (that differs from other creatures), when it said that God made us in his image.

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At 6/30/03 01:43 PM, nitroxide wrote:

At 6/27/03 06:03 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

"God had a plan for you"-Local priest around my neighborhood(when i asked him why god put us here)

Not predict, PLAN so he knows what i will do he has me mapped out therefore there is no freewill.Look at people like Martin Luther King jr god had a plan for him right therefore he dint have freewill to decide his life,it was planned by god thus canceling out freewill.

Believe what you want but don't try to force atheism on others because you don't like what your priest told you.

Maybe, but you are still agreeing that some mystical force decides what will and will not happen. Be it God, or fate, or the magical goblins of Uranus. Your arguement is based on belief, just like religion.

hehehe...i dint make up the analogy...mine's would be more science oriented.I dont believe in god or the devil or any goblins from ur-anus(Im sorry i couldnt resist,its not a flame.)therefore i dont believe i was put here with a plan set.I TRULY can believe i have freewill...

Ah-ha! So you admit that you believe in something. You believe that you have freewill even thought there is no scientific proof that it even exists. In fact, science goes against the idea by claiming that our actions are all influenced by our genes, our environment, and our sex drive. Yet you still that you have freewill for no other reason than that you feel that you do. That's what religion is. It's the belief in something that you can't prove but that you feel exists.

First of all, I wouldn't be "just as evil." A person that doesn't prevent evil isn't equally guilty. Just partially.

Should Manson be free?He dint commit any murder...he just told them to do it and they commited the actions.He was willing to say it they were willing to do it.Who has morals?

Telling someone to commit a crime isn't the same as doning nothing but both carry varying degrees of responsibility.

Besides, this is something base on our moral code which says that you should help your fellow man.

Exactly why not base everything on standards morals than on religion.I dont need religion not to kill or for that matter save a women from getting raped but do you?

Morals are based on religion.

We're not fellow anything to God.

What!!!You are supposed to obey and praise his word and his existence above all else....

Right. We're not his equals.

Besides, his job is to forgive, our job is to act.

And look at our actions...
Besides that is digusting...you show up at the gates of heaven and your excuse to god is"Im only human"...LOL...

Verbatim.

No, I don't believe that there's a guy with hooves and a pitchfork inside me. I also don't believe that people who do evil are the devil in human form. I'm not a Christian, I don't really think about the devil that much. But think of what the world would be like if God did prevent all evil. We'd be stuck in Pleasantville for all eternity.

No we would believe in a god know the truth forget the bullshit realize that we are all brothers...and excel and not sin for the good of all brotherhood(and siterhood...)

Think of all the things that you do that are considered a sin in some religion. How would you feel if you couldn't do any of those things anymore? What would be left of our society if no one could sin?

There can be no good without evil.

Hahaha!!!!I cant believe that...that is a government implanted idea.I wont say nothing futher there.

Government implanted? What are you talking about? It's the theory of relativity. Good becomes meaningless if there is no evil to compare it to. How would you even define good if there was no evil? Let me make this more scientific so you can understand me better. There can be no cold if there is no hot because cold is simply the lack of heat. Or if there is only hot, it becomes meaningless because it is the only possible temperature. Besides, how can you believe in freewill and still want your ability to do evil taken away?

Do you hear yourself. If you put people down for their beliefs, you're not letting them believe what they want.

Look maybe im just trying to help the lost...

Like the Spanish Inquisition?

I'm sorry everyone, but I think this debate will go on forever.

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At 6/30/03 04:47 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

At 6/30/03 01:43 PM, nitroxide wrote:

Believe what you want but don't try to force atheism on others because you don't like what your priest told you.

Everyone tries to spread there message....
And its not that i dint like what he said its that what he said shows that they believe god has a pre-determined plan.

Ah-ha! So you admit that you believe in something. You believe that you have freewill even thought there is no scientific proof that it even exists.

Thats true ill give you that..you got me there...

In fact, science goes against the idea by claiming that our actions are all influenced by our genes, our environment, and our sex drive.

Which i do believ but not all action.

Yet you still that you have freewill for no other reason than that you feel that you do. That's what religion is. It's the belief in something that you can't prove but that you feel exists.

Blind faith?

Telling someone to commit a crime isn't the same as doning nothing but both carry varying degrees of responsibility.

Therefore if there is a god he should pay for he is malovent.

Morals are based on religion.

No that is a lie i have no religion yet i have morals.Morals are natural birth right feelings...

We're not fellow anything to God.

What!!!You are supposed to obey and praise his word and his existence above all else....

Right. We're not his equals.

I said it because,i thought you meant he is nothing to us...

Verbatim.

Think of all the things that you do that are considered a sin in some religion. How would you feel if you couldn't do any of those things anymore? What would be left of our society if no one could sin?

I wouldnt go against gods word if he was real or gave me reason to belive in him.So what if i couldnt sin,im praising my maker,by obeying his word.

There can be no good without evil.

Government implanted? What are you talking about? It's the theory of relativity. Good becomes meaningless if there is no evil to compare it to. How would you even define good if there was no evil? Let me make this more scientific so you can understand me better. There can be no cold if there is no hot because cold is simply the lack of heat. Or if there is only hot, it becomes meaningless because it is the only possible temperature. Besides, how can you believe in freewill and still want your ability to do evil taken away?

I dint im only saying it if god was existant,and if he is he is the reason for evil itself.I believe religion is a toll to control the masses man has been weakend into believeing that there needs to be hate for there to be love for peace there must be war?This is not true.

Look maybe im just trying to help the lost...

Like the Spanish Inquisition?

Im not murdering non-believers,im just speaking choose not to listen.

I'm sorry everyone, but I think this debate will go on forever.

Yup.

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Just a thought concerning Muslim Terrorists and Christian who killed natives and whatnot. Is it the religion that made them evil or them that made the religion evil? Now there's something to think about.

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At 6/30/03 09:04 PM, nailbomb wrote: Just a thought concerning Muslim Terrorists and Christian who killed natives and whatnot. Is it the religion that made them evil or them that made the religion evil? Now there's something to think about.

Could it be that religion taught them that some groups are inferior...(Like non-believers)

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At 7/1/03 11:40 AM, nitroxide wrote: Could it be that religion taught them that some groups are inferior...(Like non-believers)

...You've got me there. I think that some people use that knowledge to justify their racism or homophobia just like they would've with 9/11.

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Must keep arguement alive.

At 6/30/03 05:15 PM, nitroxide wrote:

At 6/30/03 04:47 PM, dudeitsallama wrote:

Ah-ha! So you admit that you believe in something. You believe that you have freewill even thought there is no scientific proof that it even exists.

Thats true ill give you that..you got me there...

That's one point for me. Is anyone keeping score?

Yet you still that you have freewill for no other reason than that you feel that you do. That's what religion is. It's the belief in something that you can't prove but that you feel exists.

Blind faith?

You shouldn't make the assumption that all religious faith is blind. I agree that a lot of it is, especially the extremists who believe what they do because their parents beat it into their brains at an early age. But that isn't the case with me and many others. My parents never really talked much about religion and I wasn't really exposed to any religious views until I was five. After going through that childhood phase of believing everything adults told me, religion started to sound stupid so I became an atheist. That's right, an atheist. But I still kept thinking about religion, and after a few years, I began to realize that the way creation is described in the Old Testament is very similar to the way scientists believe life came about on earth. That's the basis behind intelligent design. The idea that the scientific events that created life were guided by a supernatural force. The evidence that supports this is that the creation of life on earth should have taken longer. It happened to fast to have been completely random. Of course, none of this proves anything but my faith isn't blind. It's based on a lot of thought and some very compelling evidence.

Morals are based on religion.

No that is a lie i have no religion yet i have morals.Morals are natural birth right feelings...

People must be taught right from wrong. Maybe we're born with simple ideas like don't kill others for no good reason, but a lot of our morals come from religion. It doesn't matter if you're religious because these morals have been accepted as "right" by all of our society.

I wouldnt go against gods word if he was real or gave me reason to belive in him.So what if i couldnt sin,im praising my maker,by obeying his word.

You know for a fact that your parents made you. Do you praise them and obey all their rules?

I dint im only saying it if god was existant,and if he is he is the reason for evil itself.I believe religion is a toll to control the masses man has been weakend into believeing that there needs to be hate for there to be love for peace there must be war?This is not true.

That's a bad analogy. Good and evil are opposites while the opposite of love and hate is indifference. Love and hate are very similar emotions. A person does not have to love to hate someone and vice versa. As for war and peace, how would you define one if the other didn't exist?

Im not murdering non-believers,im just speaking choose not to listen.

I can't. If I choose not to listen, this debate will end. Then what will I do to pass the time?

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More thoughts on my behalf.

I'm an atheist but I've studied many religions, I've seen that a lot of them are pretty much the same. Christianity teaches that you shouldn't do unto other what you wouldn't want to be done on yourself while Buddhism treaches that everything bad you do to others will come back and bite you in the ass.

Basically, they all teach you to be nice to others, don't kill for no good reason, don't cheat on your wife and any other basic human value.

However.
When I think "Christian" I recall the genocide of Native Americans and when some people think "Muslim" they recall 9/11. A lot of people will claim that religion turned them into monsters that have to kill those that are from a different faith from them but as I recall almost everyone was against me in my Patriotism/Racism post.

How can the love of your religion lead you to hate other religions but the love of your country can't lead you to hate other countries?

I can't stress this enough, it's not religion that makes the man evil, it's the man that makes religion evil. The same applies to patriotism, unless you'd all like to change your position on that.

I think I pretty much said all I have to say about this.