Patriotism and Racism

"I love my country"
"get out of my country if you don't like it"
"damn foreigners, they hate us because we're superior"
"we are the master race"

Is patriotism that far away from racism and supremacy? Personally I think they're synonyms. Let me know what you think.

[Lyddiechu]

sorry man... can't say i agree at all... racism and patriotism, even extreme nationalism.. are two different things that sometimes intersect... there are plenty of both blacks and whites and all other races in america that are all equally xenophobic. many dont care what color your skin is but what accent you have and what your passport looks like. big difference.

I agree, racism is removed from that block of thought, however suppremacy can't be that far removed.

[FUNKbrs]

At 6/16/03 04:10 PM, nailbomb wrote: I agree, racism is removed from that block of thought, however suppremacy can't be that far removed.

ah yes, one of the major perks of the US is that we may be highly patriotic, buy we are decidedly non-racist as far as the government is concerned. I may have the right to believe whatever I want, but noone has the right to discriminate on a large (ie genocide) scale through xenophobia. I'm not saying the US is perfect, but we beat the hell out of a lot of countries in this respect.

[wdfcverfgtghm]

At 6/16/03 03:59 PM, nailbomb wrote: "I love my country"

This isn't similar. I can love myself, and not dislike others or hold myself higher than another. Love does not negate humbility. Pride often leads to avarice, and ignorance. Love does not.

At 6/16/03 04:23 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 6/16/03 04:10 PM, nailbomb wrote:

ah yes, one of the major perks of the US is that we may be highly patriotic, buy we are decidedly non-racist as far as the government is concerned. I may have the right to believe whatever I want, but noone has the right to discriminate on a large (ie genocide) scale through xenophobia. I'm not saying the US is perfect, but we beat the hell out of a lot of countries in this respect.

The word "genocide" will always make me think of Native Americans; they were murdered on expansionist and nationalist premises were they not? They were also murdered based on racial and religious premises.

[Jimsween]

At 6/16/03 05:44 PM, nailbomb wrote: The word "genocide" will always make me think of Native Americans; they were murdered on expansionist and nationalist premises were they not? They were also murdered based on racial and religious premises.

When will you learn? It was NOT genocide, it was an atrocity but it does not fit under the definition of genocide so it is not genocide.

At 6/16/03 06:09 PM, jimsween wrote:

When will you learn? It was NOT genocide, it was an atrocity but it does not fit under the definition of genocide so it is not genocide.

Ok, no.

Slightly over 2 million Jews were killed under the Nazi regime.

Over 6.5 million Native Americans were killed under the colonial regime.

[aviewaskewed]

At 6/16/03 06:27 PM, nailbomb wrote:

Ok, no.

Ok, I believe jim has a point...isn't genocide, by definition, the extermination of an ENTIRE race or group of people?

Slightly over 2 million Jews were killed under the Nazi regime.

Horrible thing, but it's not genocide because the Hebrew race was not completely destroyed, it's an atrocity.

Over 6.5 million Native Americans were killed under the colonial regime.

Again, Native Americans still exist...Manifest Destiny was a mertiable idea, acheived through horrible means...however Native Americans did manage to survive, so not a genocide as I understood the term.

If I'm wrong than I'm wrong and this post can be disregarded, but I always thought it wasn't genocide unless the act of extermination was completed, just like murder isn't murder unless the victim dies.

I also don't feel Patriotism goes hand in hand with Racism. I believe some racists USE patriotism as a justification to their actions...but the two are not synonymous as you believe my friend.

[Kenney333]

im not sure its as bad as you or some people mgith say, but ya, i really really really hate patriotism, its sensless to love a concept like a country, just takes the love away from our brothers and sisters

[Kenney333]

At 6/16/03 06:27 PM, nailbomb wrote:

Slightly over 2 million Jews were killed under the Nazi regime.

it was actually like 6 million jews, and thats not counting the homosexuals, gypsies, communists,
the mentally and physically challenged, and enimies of the state that were also killed in the concentration camps

At 6/16/03 07:01 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

::

Ok, I believe jim has a point...isn't genocide, by definition, the extermination of an ENTIRE race or group of people?

Entire races of Native Americans were completely wiped out during that time. I think your definition is faultty, name me one race that was completely wiped off the face of the earth [I can name you several native races]

Horrible thing, but it's not genocide because the Hebrew race was not completely destroyed, it's an atrocity.

Then why does everyone refer to it as a genocide?

Again, Native Americans still exist...Manifest Destiny was a mertiable idea, acheived through horrible means...however Native Americans did manage to survive, so not a genocide as I understood the term.

So did Jews and Armenians and Cambodians, does that mean that every of those genocides were in fact "tragedies"?

If I'm wrong than I'm wrong and this post can be disregarded, but I always thought it wasn't genocide unless the act of extermination was completed, just like murder isn't murder unless the victim dies.

If you count "tribes" as races then indeed dozens of them were completely erased from the face of the earth.

I also don't feel Patriotism goes hand in hand with Racism. I believe some racists USE patriotism as a justification to their actions...but the two are not synonymous as you believe my friend.

I also believe that racists use patriotism as a justification to their actions just as the first colonials used the Bible and the Taleban uses the Quo'Ran. Not all patriots are racists, not all christians are indian-killers and not all muslims are terrorists but I think you're more likely to find a muslim terrorist just as you're most likely to find a racist patriot. It probably is the minority of them but you see my point.

At 6/16/03 08:24 PM, Kenney333 wrote:

it was actually like 6 million jews, and thats not counting the homosexuals, gypsies, communists,
the mentally and physically challenged, and enimies of the state that were also killed in the concentration camps

What are your sources for that number? here's mine.

http://wolnapolska.boom.ru/index-losses.html

[aviewaskewed]

At 6/16/03 09:05 PM, nailbomb wrote:

Then why does everyone refer to it as a genocide?

Just want to address this point as sort of personal principles type thing with me...by making a statement like that, are you implying to me that if a majority of people call something by a certain term, that makes it fit the term? Basically, it's like how people use the term "irony" in the wrong sense of the word, does popular usage change the term? Or is the term just misused. I say misused...that's just a little warning about picking you're words more carefully from me to you.

I also believe that racists use patriotism as a justification to their actions just as the first colonials used the Bible and the Taleban uses the Quo'Ran. Not all patriots are racists, not all christians are indian-killers and not all muslims are terrorists but I think you're more likely to find a muslim terrorist just as you're most likely to find a racist patriot. It probably is the minority of them but you see my point.

I see you're point, I have always seen the point you are trying to make...my problem is you can't back it up...you can not show me that MOST patriots are racist, or that MOST christians are indian killers...you're just trying to stir the pot a bit I think, and you have nothing substantial to back it up with. Give me some kind of factual evidence to back up the statement, and than we'll talk about this issue further.

[swayside]

At 6/16/03 09:05 PM, nailbomb wrote: If you count "tribes" as races then indeed dozens of them were completely erased from the face of the earth.

gee, too bad no one counts "tribes" as races.

think about it...

what made a tribe a tribe? the culture and territory. do you count rednecks as a modern tribe? or mabey muslims as some sort of race?

native american is a race. not souix or black foot or crow.

i see where you're coming from, though. what happened to the indians was awful, but they weren't exterminated just because they were indians, though hatred of the "red-skins" was popular. it was for territorial and safety purposes. securing a measure of land for your family and protecting them usually meant removing native americans and contiuously warding them off. americans didn't continue to the west just to take from the inhabitants. it was for their own practical purposes.

don't get me wrong, though. i'm not advocating what happened. it was terrible and without much more reason than greed. i just wanted to get the reasons for it straight.

At 6/16/03 09:22 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

::

Just want to address this point as sort of personal principles type thing with me...by making a statement like that, are you implying to me that if a majority of people call something by a certain term, that makes it fit the term? Basically, it's like how people use the term "irony" in the wrong sense of the word, does popular usage change the term? Or is the term just misused. I say misused...that's just a little warning about picking you're words more carefully from me to you.

genocide

n : systematic killing of a racial or cultural group [syn: race murder, racial extermination]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

Can you name me one race that was fully wiped off from the face of the earth? I can, they're all native.

I see you're point, I have always seen the point you are trying to make...my problem is you can't back it up...you can not show me that MOST patriots are racist, or that MOST christians are indian killers...you're just trying to stir the pot a bit I think, and you have nothing substantial to back it up with. Give me some kind of factual evidence to back up the statement, and than we'll talk about this issue further.

I'm not saying that most of them are, I'm saying that those who are stick out like a sore thumb and ruin the image of patriotism for good, just like nazis ruined the skinhead image. Skinheads ddin't start as fascists but it's what they're famous for, just as chrisitians are famous for murdering indians even though they didn't start out as indian-killers and patriots are known for racism. They all stick out like a sore thumb because they're fundamentalists that make the headlines and ruin that religions or organizations or whatever's image.

At 6/16/03 09:45 PM, swayside wrote:
what made a tribe a tribe? the culture and territory. do you count rednecks as a modern tribe? or mabey muslims as some sort of race?

Then why should we count German or American or French or Russian as a race? They're merely tribes within the European race if you follow the ethnocentric logic of squeezing a whole continent into one race.

i see where you're coming from, though. what happened to the indians was awful, but they weren't exterminated just because they were indians, though hatred of the "red-skins" was popular. it was for territorial and safety purposes. securing a measure of land for your family and protecting them usually meant removing native americans and contiuously warding them off. americans didn't continue to the west just to take from the inhabitants. it was for their own practical purposes.

1872 B.C. joined Canada, at that time the aboriginal people in the province were the majority and still had the right to vote. The first thing the new Canadian province, B.C., passed was the Qualification and Registration of Voters Act of 1872, which stripped Natives of the vote in provincial elections.

1884 90% of those involved in the commercial salmon fishery in B.C. were the First Nations. A move was launched to deny Natives commercial access to the fisheries resource.

1887 The Nisga'a Nation begins pursuing its land claims 1888 Fisheries regulations restricted what Natives might do with their catch, they could fish for food but not for 'barter, sale or commerce'. The licensing system created a native labor pool for the fish canneries, which were owned by non natives.

1920 Ottawa enacts Bill 13 which overrode the need for Native consent. Canada passes the B.C. Indian Lands Settlement Act, the McKenna McBride Commission's recommendations go ahead reducing reserve land to less than 36% of the total area of B.C. Next came Bill 14, empowered the enfranchisement or removal of any Natives from 'status', those who went to fight in the wars, worked and lived off reserve were among those who lost their 'Indian status' under Bill 14.

1927 Aboriginal people are prohibited from raising money or retaining a lawyer for the purpose of pursuing land claims

As for America's history of racism I can give you a quote from Teddy Rooselvelt

Theodore Roosevelt stated flatly: "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth." Thus, Roosevelt said, the result "was as ultimately beneficial as it was inevitable."

http://www.aistm.org/1indexpage.htm Apparently, Native culture is fun to ridicule.

[aviewaskewed]

At 6/16/03 09:51 PM, nailbomb wrote:

At 6/16/03 09:22 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

genocide

n : systematic killing of a racial or cultural group [syn: race murder, racial extermination]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

Can you name me one race that was fully wiped off from the face of the earth? I can, they're all native.

When I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I admit your usage of the word genocide was correct.

However, that wasn't what I was warning you about, you made a statement about EVERYONE thinking those events were genocides...I just was warning you about making such broad statements that you can't back up. That was all.

I'm not saying that most of them are, I'm saying that those who are stick out like a sore thumb and ruin the image of patriotism for good, just like nazis ruined the skinhead image.

I agree...it certainly does suck when the minority in a particular group begins to be viewed as the majority.

Skinheads didn't start as fascists but it's what they're famous for.

True.

Just as chrisitians are famous for murdering indians even though they didn't start out as indian-killers and patriots are known for racism.

These two examples I can't agree with...when I think of a Christian, I think of a group of people who rather zealously believe themselves to be right in all things. I DO NOT think of them as Indian-Killers...it wasn't just Christians who did that...AMERICANS did that...and I believe that is how people view it. I also do not see racists as synonymous with patriotism...I don't know where you get these ideas from...and certainly you're entitled to you're opinions, but that's all these things are YOU'RE PERSONAL OPINIONS, and you state them as though there fact. THAT is my problem with you're arguments here.

They all stick out like a sore thumb because they're fundamentalists that make the headlines and ruin that religions or organizations or whatever's image.

True...they really do hurt it...but I would say of the groups you listed...only the skinheads really "make headlines" the racist patriots don't, and the "indian-killing christians" don't...again, I think you're stating you're own personal views as fact, and you simply cannot prove they are fact. That is the whole problem with you're argument here, there is NO WAY for you to substantiate it.

[cavscout]

At 6/16/03 06:27 PM, nailbomb wrote:

At 6/16/03 06:09 PM, jimsween wrote:

When will you learn? It was NOT genocide, it was an atrocity but it does not fit under the definition of genocide so it is not genocide.

Ok, no.

Slightly over 2 million Jews were killed under the Nazi regime.

Over 6.5 million Native Americans were killed under the colonial regime.

Exactly where did you dream these numbers up? I would love to see some facts to back this up instead of this fabricated numbers you dreamed up.

As a member of the Eastern Band of the Cherokee, I can state that the yes the Native Americans were murdered and robbed by the english. But, the spainards killed 3 of us compared to 1 by the english. BTW, the most my people ever numbered in the 1800's were 65,000. That includes the Western Band, too.

I await your reply.....

[peaceplease]

At 6/16/03 03:59 PM, nailbomb wrote:

"we are the master race"

Weither those are your words or not...

Master race? last time i checked (which was never, it just seems to make sense to me this way.) the human species is one kingdom of classification. So in other words, we are all one race. no human is a race above another. homosapian = homosapian. And that means to me, with a little understanding, you could love what you are(patriotism), and still love another(racisim).

and if your so proud of this country, you should know a little about it, its heritage of race, indiffrence, and acceptance of diversity. But even then people hated people for their diffrences, and even now, and even tommorow, so if we dont teach to love, it will only get worse. You will say to that, 'the world is only getting violentier, and people hate us'? So should we retaliate? Hate back? FIGHT 'EM? see who comes out on top. its all dead homosapians in the end. Lets start showing how to love now. Some will catch on, and others will start to hate more for just trying. And so the world of controviersy turns, after all thats what keeps politics, emotion, and fear afloat. Were do you sit? And what if some one thinks differently?? OH NO!!?? what a predicament these things are. But without... you wouldnt have even had this forum to post.

(has anyone else noticed i got a little of topic?? sorry, just disregard this.)

peace, love, harmony.

[peaceplease]

At 6/16/03 04:27 PM, AnRkeyPenguin wrote:

At 6/16/03 03:59 PM, nailbomb wrote: "I love my country"

This isn't similar. I can love myself, and not dislike others or hold myself higher than another. Love does not negate humbility. Pride often leads to avarice, and ignorance. Love does not.

beautiful...

[Lyddiechu]

At 6/16/03 06:09 PM, jimsween wrote:

At 6/16/03 05:44 PM, nailbomb wrote: The word "genocide" will always make me think of Native Americans; they were murdered on expansionist and nationalist premises were they not? They were also murdered based on racial and religious premises.

When will you learn? It was NOT genocide, it was an atrocity but it does not fit under the definition of genocide so it is not genocide.

it was defenitally really close genocide. native americans were systematically removed from their land and sent away to barren lands in the mid/south west. also the government often tried to purposefully infect them with disease. anyone else here know about the trail of tears except me??

[peaceplease]

At 6/16/03 11:01 PM, Lyddiechu wrote:

At 6/16/03 06:09 PM, jimsween wrote:

At 6/16/03 05:44 PM, nailbomb wrote: The word "genocide" will always make me think of Native Americans; they were murdered on expansionist and nationalist premises were they not? They were also murdered based on racial and religious premises.

When will you learn? It was NOT genocide, it was an atrocity but it does not fit under the definition of genocide so it is not genocide.

it was defenitally really close genocide. native americans were systematically removed from their land and sent away to barren lands in the mid/south west. also the government often tried to purposefully infect them with disease. anyone else here know about the trail of tears except me??

He is more than correct. It was Genocide. Go ahead and define Genocide: <In>. The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, politcal, or ethnical group. Now go ahead and take a look at the Westward expansion of America, with the Manifest Destiny being more than a systimatic and planned extermination, and that qoute from Roosevelt was pretty much the extent of our plan.

peace, love, truth.

[Jimsween]

At 6/16/03 06:27 PM, nailbomb wrote:

At 6/16/03 06:09 PM, jimsween wrote:

When will you learn? It was NOT genocide, it was an atrocity but it does not fit under the definition of genocide so it is not genocide.

Ok, no.

Slightly over 2 million Jews were killed under the Nazi regime.

Over 6.5 million Native Americans were killed under the colonial regime.

This does nothing to prove your point, 10 million russians were killed in WW2 but that isnt genocide.

gen·o·cide ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jn-sd)
n.
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group

Systematic, that means planned. They by no means planned to kill Native Americans, the natives had something they wanted and the only way to get it was to kill them. By your example any war before then was genocide just because countries were not as intergrated as they are today. It doesnt fit the definition so it is not genocide, there is no grey area it's just as simple as that.

[Jimsween]

At 6/16/03 10:14 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 6/16/03 09:51 PM, nailbomb wrote:

At 6/16/03 09:22 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

genocide

n : systematic killing of a racial or cultural group [syn: race murder, racial extermination]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

Can you name me one race that was fully wiped off from the face of the earth? I can, they're all native.

When I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I admit your usage of the word genocide was correct.

Dont speak so fast, I'm starting to belive that none of you know what sytematic and planned mean. The settlers would have killed anybody that had the land, it just so happened they were indian but they did not kill them for the sake of killing them they killed them because they were taking up space that they wanted.

[Jimsween]

At 6/16/03 11:01 PM, Lyddiechu wrote:

At 6/16/03 06:09 PM, jimsween wrote:

At 6/16/03 05:44 PM, nailbomb wrote: The word "genocide" will always make me think of Native Americans; they were murdered on expansionist and nationalist premises were they not? They were also murdered based on racial and religious premises.

When will you learn? It was NOT genocide, it was an atrocity but it does not fit under the definition of genocide so it is not genocide.

it was defenitally really close genocide. native americans were systematically removed from their land and sent away to barren lands in the mid/south west. also the government often tried to purposefully infect them with disease. anyone else here know about the trail of tears except me??

I'm not saying it wasnt a horrible thing to do, but just because alot of people died doesnt make it a genocide. If that were true than the atomic bomb was genocide and basically most wars were genocide.

[Commander-K25]

At 6/16/03 03:59 PM, nailbomb wrote: "I love my country"
"get out of my country if you don't like it"
"damn foreigners, they hate us because we're superior"
"we are the master race"

Is patriotism that far away from racism and supremacy? Personally I think they're synonyms. Let me know what you think.

Here's an historical example, Imperial Germany.

Imperial Germany was very nationalist and its citizens quite patriotic, but they were not racist. Indeed, they actually treated their black, asian and pacific islander colonial subjects far better thanh any other colonial empire. They loved their country, but that did not lead them to hate other races. Take the colonial Shutztruppen in Africa, for instance. Most of the soldiers were black, yet they were treated exactly the same as white German soldiers and served side by side with whites. Did they fight to the end for "Kaiser and Empire"? Yes, they did, but they were certainly not racist.

[DrxFeelgood]

At 6/16/03 03:59 PM, nailbomb wrote: "I love my country"

You betch your ass!

"get out of my country if you don't like it"

Damn straight!

[misterx2000]

Yep, as said before they aren't the same thing IMHO. Racism is more extreme and is more a personal xenophobic thing. Patriotism can be tolerating and benevolent.

[Lyddiechu]

At 6/17/03 12:56 AM, Commander-K25 wrote: Imperial Germany was very nationalist and its citizens quite patriotic, but they were not racist. Indeed, they actually treated their black, asian and pacific islander colonial subjects far better thanh any other colonial empire. They loved their country, but that did not lead them to hate other races. Take the colonial Shutztruppen in Africa, for instance. Most of the soldiers were black, yet they were treated exactly the same as white German soldiers and served side by side with whites. Did they fight to the end for "Kaiser and Empire"? Yes, they did, but they were certainly not racist.

yes, commander, you are correct. although the citizens of imperial germany were just as racist as the rest of europe, the government did not adopt racism as a policy until the 3rd reich. the usa on the other hand, during its founding hundred or so years, was usually incredibly racist. the puritanical idea of "a city of a hill" that was the basis of the origional settlements that became the united states is about as racist as you can get. then the relocation and extermination of the native americans was pretty damn systematic. the native americans may not have been exterminated by gas chambers or ovens, but they were culturally exterminated by having their children taken away in put into special schools to breed whiteness into them. (read the book lakota woman you will see what i am talking about)

hey commander, dont you ever wonder what europe would be like today if bismarck had remained in control of german politics and kaiser wilhelm hadnt fucked it all up by screwing up germany's alliances and allowing austria-hungary to drag it into WWI??? maybe there wouldnt have ever been a 3rd reich (that wouldnt have helped my european ancestors, stalin killed all of them, but that wasnt genocide since stalin killed everyone regardless of race!!)