Public School Stupidity

[MoralLibertarian]

Sorry if this seems like a rant.

I was thinking about what kind of career I might have after college. I thought that maybe I'd work as a teacher. As a teacher, it makes no difference whether I work in a public or private school since the quality of education depends on the quality of my own teaching. I'm not really anti-public school, I went to a public school after all.

So it turns out that in every state of the Union, you need a degree in education AS WELL as a primary concentration (like math, a science, history, etc.)

What purpose does this policy do aside from keeping people who decide they want to do something different from their major half-way through college out of teaching? In particular, the government is passing up many intelligent, even brilliant young men and women out of college in order to standardize the educational experiences of young children. Is this policy really so wise when our nation is apparently experiencing a shortage in public school teachers?

Proposals for change:

1) If standardization is so important (I don't think it is), A licensing test would be a better, more efficient "smell test."
2) Get rid of the degree requirement entirely and just pay them less. It's not like teachers work for the money anyway.

[HighlyIllogical]

At 7/15/07 08:17 AM, MoralLibertarian wrote: 2) Get rid of the degree requirement entirely and just pay them less. It's not like teachers work for the money anyway.

Paying teachers less provides less qualified teachers. That's just how it is.

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 7/15/07 08:17 AM, MoralLibertarian wrote: 2) Get rid of the degree requirement entirely and just pay them less. It's not like teachers work for the money anyway.

Paying teachers less means you'll have less teachers over all, as people won't want to go into teaching if the pay isn't good enough to survive on, or worth the time and effort they put into the job.

Teachers are already underpaid for the amount of work and shit they have to go through, and you want to cut their wages even more?

Nice idea in theory, not workable in practice in my mind.

[UWDarDar17]

Well, the idea behind education degrees is that it teaches you theories and methods of teaching, and how to be a teacher.

Personally, I think it's utter bullshit. That's why I'm going to try to be a professor.

You don't need an education degree, simply a high degree in whatever field you wish to profess. Not to mention it's a little more prestige and freedom.

[MoralLibertarian]

SevenSeize, my point is that you have to go to school for 4 years in order to be an educator at a public school, whether it's elementary or secondary. My degree is in Finance, which I think means that I could teach high schoolers business management, personal finance, economics, or most pre-calc math classes. However, due to regulation I will never be able to unless I go to school for another four years. IMO, that's garbage, especially since an education in education does little to increase quality.

At 7/15/07 10:30 AM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Teachers are already underpaid for the amount of work and shit they have to go through, and you want to cut their wages even more?

I'd like to take issue with that assertion. Public school teachers are overpaid because there are people who will do what they do for less money. They're called private school teachers, and many times they're better anyway.

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 7/15/07 11:04 AM, MoralLibertarian wrote: I'd like to take issue with that assertion. Public school teachers are overpaid because there are people who will do what they do for less money. They're called private school teachers, and many times they're better anyway.

I dunno what things are like in the US mate, but in the UK Private school teachers earn more than those who work in state schools, and I fail to see why the private sector would pay less than the public sector also.

As private schools are effectively businesses they need the best they can get to survive, and as such need to entice good teachers, which can only be done via a good pay packet, maybe with some other perks like Health care package or whatever else you have in the US.

If private schools pay less then why are the teachers staying their? Why aren't they going to state run schools where they can get more pay?

Not dedication to the job as those who want to make a difference by teaching tend to head to the areas where the disadvantaged are, E.g. not private schools which tend to accommodate the middle classes and the rich.

So if state run schools fulfil the criteria of giving a more fulfilling job, by helping the disadvantaged kids who might otherwise be stuck with a shit education and therefore possibly affecting the rest of their lives, and pays more...then why does anyone stay in the private sector?

What you say makes no sense to me. If I'm missing something then by all means explain, but at the moment I can't see where the hell you're coming from.

[authorblues]

At 7/15/07 11:04 AM, MoralLibertarian wrote: SevenSeize, my point is that you have to go to school for 4 years in order to be an educator at a public school, whether it's elementary or secondary. My degree is in Finance, which I think means that I could teach high schoolers business management, personal finance, economics, or most pre-calc math classes.

thats pretty much exactly the way youre supposed to do it. if you want to teach, unless youre going to some amazing normal-school, you should really just get your bachelors in your field, and then get certified. ive never really seen the necessity for a whopping forty (40) credit hours in education just to teach some bratty teenagers.

However, due to regulation I will never be able to unless I go to school for another four years. IMO, that's garbage, especially since an education in education does little to increase quality.

where do you get your facts here? most states actually only require a few small things to become secondary ed certified. for most, its about a six or eight week course to get your certification, a bachelors in the degree area youd like to teach, and a guaruntee of continuing education (you have to take like twelve college credit hours every five years in the area you teach).

http://www.ed.gov/policy/elsec/guid/secletter /051021.html

[Imperator]

I'd like to take issue with that assertion. Public school teachers are overpaid because there are people who will do what they do for less money. They're called private school teachers, and many times they're better anyway.

I concur. My best teachers in high school were Christians Brothers, they're salaries were exactly $0 per annum.

I think most teachers are like most firemen and policemen, they aren't in it for the money.

[AdamRice]

At 7/15/07 10:13 AM, SevenSeize wrote:

I'll keep my first graders. :-)

SevenSeize, is it true that they pay first grade teachers at an almost identical rate to say a high school AP Biology teacher with the same number of teaching years?

[CogSpin]

A question: why the fuck would you want to teach, apart from longer vacation time?

[MoralLibertarian]

At 7/15/07 04:50 PM, Mr-Money wrote: A question: why the fuck would you want to teach, apart from longer vacation time?

Because I want to write novels for a living.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 7/15/07 05:00 PM, SevenSeize wrote:

At 7/15/07 11:04 AM, MoralLibertarian wrote:

In Louisiana, yes. Any public school teacher gets a set pay scale based on their degree and level of experience. The grade you teach does not matter. Since I have a bachelors in education I actually started at a HIGHER pay than people who did like ML wants to, and went back and got certified with non education degrees. So I make more money than alt certs.

In Massachusetts, according to my 5th Grade teacher sister, the pay is also differed on the location that you teach as well.

If you work innercity, you get paid a hell of a lot more then some white suburb because of the obvious difficulties.

And for degrees, I think that she majored in English actually and minored in some Chid Education class or something like that. But I know that one must also pass thier masters to teach in this state as well.

And for pay, yeah, 32-34 k for year might not be a whole lot for what they had to do to get thier, but people forgot that teachers don't work for a little under half a year.

[Elfer]

So basically, you wanted to be a teacher, but you just found out now that you need a degree in education?

Maybe it's because they don't want people who decided to become teachers on a whim?

[authorblues]

At 7/15/07 10:55 PM, Elfer wrote: So basically, you wanted to be a teacher, but you just found out now that you need a degree in education? Maybe it's because they don't want people who decided to become teachers on a whim?

considering the number of fields and locations that are "critical needs areas," i think they will take what they can get, to be honest with you. i was going to be a maths teacher in the south, which is kinda considered a double "critical needs area."

then i remembered i dont like children.

[Joe67]

If the goverment tries to make me leave collage for another job. I'll just tell them to fuck off, and if that fails I'll bring out my lawyer (who is blood-related to me) to get the goverment off my back.

motherfucking white house.

[onefingersalute1]

At 7/15/07 11:04 AM, MoralLibertarian wrote: I'd like to take issue with that assertion. Public school teachers are overpaid because there are people who will do what they do for less money. They're called private school teachers, and many times they're better anyway.

that is uter bullshit i remember what i did to my teachers in school and i would have killed me on several ocasions they are way under paid

if you offered better pay then teachers wouldnt have to live on food stamps and it would atract more talent. so schools would have a choice and wouldnt acept almost any teacher they could get there hands on

[robattle]

At 7/18/07 12:20 AM, Joe67 wrote:

motherfucking white house.

Seconded