Contract suprises (4th Perspective)

[Sarai]

A while ago I joined a website called 4th Perspective. But there were a number of things that weren't right about it. I left, but sometimes checked back on it, seeing as people keep linking it here and saying how great it is.

I've paid quite a bit of attention to the FAQ and Legal section. Of the two the FAQ isn't important, dealing as it does with NG style points, experience, auctions and so forth. The Legal part is very interested however.

In summary if you submit your work there, they gain copyright over your work to the extent they can distribute, upload, show, display or publish or sell your work to other parties. Although they maintain the copyright is not 'exclusive' a real publisher will not want to enter into contract with YOU if you have entered into such a cotnract with someone else, because they can undermine the established publisher's revenue streams.

In the UK, it's likely that these terms of service wouldn't stand up in court for a number of technical reasons and also because they're unfair, (a check box consent cannot indicate consent to onerous contract clauses buried in a legal ToS). I would also like to see the companies house reference number of the 'company' (It's called a company in the legal section). In addition, I wonder whether the owner has any idea about the statutory requirements to pay tax as a sole trader / company or what-not.

Kids, don't play with legal laws, copyrights, and so forth without getting a bit burned.

Here's a few choice extracts.

"in doing so you grant to fourthperspective.com, and its successors ("Fourth Perspective") a non-exclusive right and license to (a) encode, digitize and store the Work; (b) perform, display, copy, transmit, and broadcast the Work; (c) publicize, advertise and promote the Work; (d) place advertising before, during and after the display of the Work; (e) use the name, likeness, voice and biography of you and/or any person rendering services in connection with the Work, in connection with the promotion and advertising of the Work or its related rights.

"You understand that the Work may be made available for download on the Internet for a fee or otherwise"

oh and you can never remove the work by yourself. 'Disable' just causes it get stored on their servers... for uhh, their use later?

So anyone from this website that I obviously have an issue with, want to tell me how you can defend these contract terms? Do you think it's fair that users are potentially excluding themselves from future contracts with *real* publishers?

[H-h-h-heliopios]

Where?

[Sarai]

At 7/1/07 04:48 PM, H-h-h-heliopios wrote: Where?

http://www.fourthperspective.com/?legal

*_*

[H-h-h-heliopios]

At 7/1/07 04:49 PM, Sarai wrote:

At 7/1/07 04:48 PM, H-h-h-heliopios wrote: Where?

http://www.fourthperspective.com/?legal

*_*

Just testing you

[enjoi-sk8er7]

thats a lot of words

I can't defend the issues I'm afraid, though the only works I've submitted there tend to be the ones I submit to all free servers.

I looked through those copyright details too when I first joined, which I suppose is why I haven't uploaded as much as I would like to. Don't get me wrong, the site itself is quite good in my opinion: some good writers, some good material etc.

So as much I would like to discuss how I could defend it, I can't really. I'll just get it wrong really :$

[36Holla]

Zerok pointed it out to me, and I checked it out and signed up. I never really had any plans on submitting any work (especially after seeing this), and mostly I just read random stories.

[Sarai]

At 7/1/07 04:56 PM, Scarab-Stalk33r wrote: Don't get me wrong, the site itself is quite good in my opinion: some good writers, some good material etc.

I'm sure it might well be. It seems to have a lot more effort in terms of programming recently. However... Those contract terms... Well, no chance for myself to put myself at risk that someone else can sell my work.

[Idiot-Finder]

I'll try to submit mines if I can.

[Catoblepas]

At 7/1/07 05:30 PM, Idiot-Finder wrote: I'll try to submit mines if I can.

E-mines? So they'll stumble and fall?

[Lost-Chances]

Thank you for the advertising Sarai. Knew could count on you to do a spot of advertising for a growing website.

[Idiot-Finder]

At 7/1/07 05:32 PM, Catoblepas wrote:

At 7/1/07 05:30 PM, Idiot-Finder wrote: I'll try to submit mines if I can.

E-mines? So they'll stumble and fall?

Yes.

At 7/1/07 04:58 PM, Sarai wrote: I'm sure it might well be. It seems to have a lot more effort in terms of programming recently. However... Those contract terms... Well, no chance for myself to put myself at risk that someone else can sell my work.

Yeah, that's ok. I'll look around for a few of your stories on the BBS and stuff since I always like to read fiction on the net :)

And as I said, as of now I've only got my "free works" on there. I'm continually thinking about making more of my stories/poetry more public though...

[fuzz]

I think my-space is the same.

Thanks for the heads-up though..

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 7/1/07 04:47 PM, Sarai wrote: "in doing so you grant to fourthperspective.com, and its successors ("Fourth Perspective") a non-exclusive right and license to (a) encode, digitize and store the Work; (b) perform, display, copy, transmit, and broadcast the Work; (c) publicize, advertise and promote the Work; (d) place advertising before, during and after the display of the Work; (e) use the name, likeness, voice and biography of you and/or any person rendering services in connection with the Work, in connection with the promotion and advertising of the Work or its related rights.

I must ask:

What is your problem with FP?

At first you declared the Log in box hd been stolen from NG, then went on to insinuate that the works on their might be stolen.

Now you're accusing MIchael of trying to steal our works?

I just clicked the Terms of agreement for NG...guess what it said?

You understand and agree that by clicking "SUBMIT," you grant to NEWGROUNDS.COM, Inc. and its successors ("Newgrounds") a non-exclusive right and license to (a) encode, digitize and store the Property; (b) perform, display, copy, transmit, and broadcast the Property; (c) publicize, advertise and promote the Property; (d) place advertising before, during and after the display of the Property; (e) use the name, likeness, voice and biography of you and/or any person rendering services in connection with the Property

Similar to FP's, no?

So is Tom trying to steak all the hard work of the flash artists as you are accusing Michael of doing?

Either way, thanks for the publicity :-)

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 7/1/07 05:49 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: At first you declared the Log in box had been stolen from NG, then went on to insinuate that the works on their might be stolen.

Urgh! This is what happens when you go out two nights in a row drinkign and don't sober up in between.

Fucking...english language. Why can't it be simple so us drunkards can use it better :-(

At 7/1/07 05:51 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Fucking...english language. Why can't it be simple so us drunkards can use it better :-(

I'm pretty sure they're working on it somewhere ;)

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 7/1/07 05:52 PM, Scarab-Stalk33r wrote:

At 7/1/07 05:51 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Fucking...english language. Why can't it be simple so us drunkards can use it better :-(

I'm pretty sure they're working on it somewhere ;)

Yeah...I think it's American or something. They drop radom letters and pronoucne things funny.

Bring on Coca-colaisation I say! If it means I can write whislt being hung over then it's a good thign!

At 7/1/07 05:55 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Yeah...I think it's American or something. They drop radom letters and pronoucne things funny.

Bring on Coca-colaisation I say! If it means I can write whislt being hung over then it's a good thign!

Hehe, or you could write drunk and hungover anyway. One of the few times I drank alcohol, I wrote a supposedly "funny and misunderstood" story that was two lines long :$

"Funny and misunderstood"... I swear I could get good reviews on Fictionpress just by logging in.

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 7/1/07 05:59 PM, Scarab-Stalk33r wrote: Hehe, or you could write drunk and hungover anyway. One of the few times I drank alcohol, I wrote a supposedly "funny and misunderstood" story that was two lines long :$

Hmmm writing drunk and hung over...gonna have to try that.
<Checks drinks cabinet>

Whiskey( 4 bottles), Vodka( 1 bottle), Port(6 bottles), Carling( 24 pack untouched), Cider of varying sorts ( 10 cans) , Wine ( 13 bottles)

The weird thing about this? No one in my family is actually a big drinker. I only drink at parties and my parents barely touch the stuff O_o

"Funny and misunderstood"... I swear I could get good reviews on Fictionpress just by logging in.

One word:

LOL

[Monocrom]

At 7/1/07 05:49 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Either way, thanks for the publicity :-)

I doubt if Michael (A.K.A. - CHIKUNHED) is going to be happy if F.P. gets flooded with NG A-holes. Sarai might not be too popular, by the A-holes on NG are attracted to her threads like a moth to a flame.

Personal problems in my Life are why I have yet to post a story on F.P., along with promises made to other NGers that I would finish my short story thread and post my next feature-length story on NG. I hope Michael understands my situation.

But I must admit that I find this info to be troubling. I hope he responds to the issues brought up by Sarai. I personally think F.P. has a lot of potential. But like every Writer, I'd like to keep my stories as my own. Despite NG policy, NG is a flash site first & foremost. I've never heard of Flash authors complaining that NG stole their rights to their work. So, I'm not worried that Wade or Tom are going to claim the rights to my stories. I sincerely hope that applies to Michael as well.

Still, he needs to respond to Sarai's claims.

At 7/1/07 06:04 PM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Hmmm writing drunk and hung over...gonna have to try that.
<Checks drinks cabinet>

Whiskey( 4 bottles), Vodka( 1 bottle), Port(6 bottles), Carling( 24 pack untouched), Cider of varying sorts ( 10 cans) , Wine ( 13 bottles)

The weird thing about this? No one in my family is actually a big drinker. I only drink at parties and my parents barely touch the stuff O_o

Yeah, it's really the same here, except the parents thing. My mum and dad are into beer, a bit of wine sometimes, but not the hard stuff, which is odd because we have a cupboard with bottles of whisky, vodka and some other spirits.

It's those I get drunk on if I feel really depressed...without the parent's knowledge of course. Well, they probably noticed they were missing bottles of Jack Daniel's and Highland Park, but they've never talked to me about it. Maybe they think it's my twelve year old brother...

For some reason I never drink in public, probably because I have that image of being nice and all that. Maybe it's because I don't get invited to parties, who knows?

Are we straying off topic a little?

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 7/1/07 06:09 PM, Monocrom wrote: I doubt if Michael (A.K.A. - CHIKUNHED) is going to be happy if F.P. gets flooded with NG A-holes. Sarai might not be too popular, by the A-holes on NG are attracted to her threads like a moth to a flame.

Very true, but those sorts of idiots will alsobe put off by the legal jargon as they won't understand a word of it.

Personal problems in my Life are why I have yet to post a story on F.P., along with promises made to other NGers that I would finish my short story thread and post my next feature-length story on NG. I hope Michael understands my situation.

I was kind of curious if you were gonna sign up to FP. You're a good writer from what I've seen so whenever/ if you do get round to it, you will be most welcome.

But I must admit that I find this info to be troubling. I hope he responds to the issues brought up by Sarai. I personally think F.P. has a lot of potential. But like every Writer, I'd like to keep my stories as my own. Despite NG policy, NG is a flash site first & foremost. I've never heard of Flash authors complaining that NG stole their rights to their work. So, I'm not worried that Wade or Tom are going to claim the rights to my stories. I sincerely hope that applies to Michael as well.

Unless the charachter Michael displays is a HUGE elabourate ruse then he isn't gonna be stealing anything.

He's far too enthusiastic about FP for it just to be a scam...the guys got more plans for FP than I have braincells at the moment.

Still, he needs to respond to Sarai's claims.

I made a post on the FP forums linking to this thread, he'll see it and knowing him he'll post a response.

He didn't like being accused of stealing a log in box. How he'll react to basically being accused of planning to steal peoples works...well...

<hides in Bomb shelter>

Apologies for the delay in responding. Reached the post limit...

At 7/1/07 06:10 PM, Scarab-Stalk33r wrote: Are we straying off topic a little?

Just slightly :P

[Monocrom]

To: T-N-T
~~~~~~~~~

No apologies needed, I understand how it is with the post limit.

Thanks for making the topic on F.P. and linking to this thread. Now I won't have to PM Michael.

I do hope he understands my personal situation..... He already Welcomed me awhile ago to F.P.

As for the NG A-holes, I just don't want them spamming up another site's forums.

[Monocrom]

Forgot to add...... A log-in box is a log-in box. With regards to THAT, I don't see what the big deal is, even if it was borrowed from NG.

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 7/1/07 06:33 PM, Monocrom wrote: To: T-N-T
~~~~~~~~~

No apologies needed, I understand how it is with the post limit.

One of the worst rules around... :-( Yet sadly needed her eon NG.

Thanks for making the topic on F.P. and linking to this thread. Now I won't have to PM Michael.

Not at all mate. I'm curious as to how he will respond to this as well.

I do hope he understands my personal situation..... He already Welcomed me awhile ago to F.P.

He will. He's a cool dude from what I can see.

May not be one of most knowledgable admins when it comes to computers etc, but he's one of the nicest I've ever seen. He literally welcomes every single new person we get if he gets the chance to.

As for the NG A-holes, I just don't want them spamming up another site's forums.

Fair enough :P

[rabidsquirl]

Hah hah. Silly NG-ers.

Another horribly planned flame snuffed out again. And forgive me for not putting more up...I'm in no way popular here XD Only on F.P.

FP's terms and whateves are pretty much the same as any websites Terms and Agreements and legal issues. There is only the basic internet e-patent which states that the work "May not be 'credited' towards anyone else but you."

Anyways, hooray for ignorance, am I right?

[CHIKUNHED]

Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Michael Danton, sole owner and administrator of www.fourthperspective.com
I'll take this opportunity to thank Sarai for her questions and bringing the subject of ownership into the public forum as I have absolutely nothing to hide and trust that everyone who visits this thread will make their own informed decision based not on the singular and possibly biased view of a brief visitor.

I encourage you to read the "Terms of service" and the "FAQ" document that interprets the legalese into spoken English and goes into detail about some of the innovative features that make Fourth Perspective unique. I have even gone to the extent of legally binding these documents together so that they cannot contradict eachother.

As for the selection of legalese that has caused Sarai so much trepidation, I can only say that it's de rigeur of any website that accepts file uploads, including Newgrounds as TNT has pointed out previously. This section of legalese is designed only to prevent an unscrupulous person from taking advantage of a generous offer. I'm quite sure if you asked Mr. Fulp to explain a similar piece in his documentation, he would also reply similarly.

I have referred to this particular segment in my spoken English FAQ, it's quite brief so I will include it in the following paragraphs:

How will Fourth Perspective use my submitted work?
As stated in greater detail in our "Terms Of Use Agreement", we require only the ability to hold and otherwise manipulate the file with the single intent to promote and allow others to view it.

Does Fourth Perspective claim ownership of my work?
No, we have no claim to your work. You, as the author may withdraw, revise or option your work freely of your own volition at any time without penalty.

---

Furthermore, the document available at http://www.fourthperspective.com/?faq goes on to say how we actually protect your works from theft/plagiarism through gazetted presidence with credible witness in the unlikely event the need should arrise as this service in itself will dissuade prospective plagiarists.

As Rabidsquirl has pointed out, it's quite clear that the purpose of creating this thread was to cast negative connotations over our thriving writing community. This unprovoked attack has not only failed but backfired by further exposing the fair and equitable treatment of our valued writers.

Sarai, you should know better than anyone else that the perspective of a moderator should be both fair and balanced, that's why I'm not going to embarass you further by answering questions such as "Have I paid my taxes?"

Should anyone have any reasonable questions, comments, critiques or commendations. Please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thankyou.
Michael Danton of www.fourthperspective.com

[Sarai]

At 7/2/07 02:55 AM, CHIKUNHED wrote:
I encourage you to read the "Terms of service" and the "FAQ" document that interprets the legalese into spoken English and goes into detail about some of the innovative features that make Fourth Perspective unique. I have even gone to the extent of legally binding these documents together so that they cannot contradict eachother.

You're not a company yet you claim to be. Your legal ToS is taken from the NG flash ToS as pointed out by someone else here almost word for word.

As for the selection of legalese that has caused Sarai so much trepidation, I can only say that it's de rigeur of any website that accepts file uploads, including Newgrounds as TNT has pointed out previously. This section of legalese is designed only to prevent an unscrupulous person from taking advantage of a generous offer. I'm quite sure if you asked Mr. Fulp to explain a similar piece in his documentation, he would also reply similarly.

You have failed to address the fact that your ToS include provisions for charging a fee to show the author's work. You also don't address that the submission cannot be removed by the author, just 'disabled'. In addition you reserve the right to actually perform for example a script in your Terms of Service. I suggest you re-read what you took from either NG or where-ever.

And 'Legalese ... generous offer...' Hmm, lots of complicated words there with no real substance to them. Explain to me why a 'writing portal' has such a 'generous offer' that they need non-exclusive copyright.

As Rabidsquirl has pointed out, it's quite clear that the purpose of creating this thread was to cast negative connotations over our thriving writing community. This unprovoked attack has not only failed but backfired by further exposing the fair and equitable treatment of our valued writers.

No, it wasn't really. It was to point out that you're pretending as before to be a company of some description but in reality have lifted things from around the internet without understanding of their impact. In addition with people dropping links to your forum all over NG I feel compelled to point out that if someone was a serious writer they would not submit to such a website in preference to NG. Your website has no 'protection of copyright' status that another website could not grant. For example if I post on NG the post is date-stamped. Copyright is determined in a court of law and makes use of detailed analysis to see if there is plagarism. Just because someone submits to your website doesn't mean they owned the work in the first place.

Sarai, you should know better than anyone else that the perspective of a moderator should be both fair and balanced, that's why I'm not going to embarass you further by answering questions such as "Have I paid my taxes?"

I am not a moderator. But my points are still reasonable. Unlike Newgrounds you are building up a body of work over which your website claims rights too (or maybe you'd just not read your legal after copying it...).

If you're going to play at being something you're not, at least get some legal advice before you decide to plagarise other sites for your own legal ToS.

[Tri-Nitro-Toluene]

At 7/2/07 03:46 AM, Sarai wrote: You're not a company yet you claim to be.

You know this how?

For all you are aware Michael has set up a company under the name Fourth Perspective in Austalia. It would not surprise me if he has done so, he's got such huge ambitions that he probably has jumped the gun a little with that.

Your legal ToS is taken from the NG flash ToS as pointed out by someone else here almost word for word.

Legal Jargon, from my somewhat limited knowledge, tends to be very similar as it's already longwinded and complicated, and as such, the quickest and most compact form of writing is used, SO it would indeed be very similar as the content and ideas within said jargon would be very similar.

You have failed to address the fact that your ToS include provisions for charging a fee to show the author's work.

NG Does the same thing. Thousands of websites on the net you have to pay for accounts so you can submit and get your work viewed.

If Tom wanted to he could say ' Yeah we're gonna have you pay now', as that's what he has the right to do as laid out in the ToS.

You also don't address that the submission cannot be removed by the author, just 'disabled'. In addition you reserve the right to actually perform for example a script in your Terms of Service. I suggest you re-read what you took from either NG or where-ever.

1) There is no direct way that an author can delete stuf on NG. They have to go through an admin. The same thng is true of FP. If I wanted to delete soemthing, then I'm sure Michael would be more than happy to do so.

2) You do not actually have any knowledge of what Michael is like beyond your complaints about FP.

He's one of the nicest guys I've ever had the priviledge to talk to over the net. He isn't about to go and perfrom someones work without theri permission. And if he did, wooops, there goes the website as no one will wanna join it after that.

Explain to me why a 'writing portal' has such a 'generous offer' that they need non-exclusive copyright.

It's a generous offer because pretty much every other writing website out there sucks. They either require subscription, or have a shirt service, or in many cases, both.

FP offers a serivce which Michael could quite rightfully charge for as its better than the mass of writing websites out there. The fact he isn't charging means it is generous.

And before you go off on oe about him reserving the rights to charge...NG's ToS says the same thing.

In addition with people dropping links to your forum all over NG I feel compelled to point out that if someone was a serious writer they would not submit to such a website in preference to NG.

What? So instead of actually getting other writer's views and critques I should prefer to have a load of 13 year olds with the attention span a gnat go ' lolz TLDR, not enough sex, guns and violence'?

Yeah, right..

Your website has no 'protection of copyright' status that another website could not grant. For example if I post on NG the post is date-stamped.

That's the sort of thing that Michael was referring to. He wasn't lying when he said that. Yes NG does the same thing, but NG is filled with prepubescents with nothing beyond a basic control of the english language and ass holes who haven't read a book in their entire life.

FP is a better place to host works, even if the 'copy right protection' is just a date stamp like on NG.

It may not be copyright as such, but it is protection.

I am not a moderator. But my points are still reasonable. Unlike Newgrounds you are building up a body of work over which your website claims rights too (or maybe you'd just not read your legal after copying it...).

Based on what?

The legalese you posted is very much the same to NG's. Is NG building up a collection that they claim rights to as well? 'Cause based on the ToS. Yes they are.