The US Economy

[PretzelsDino]

A lot of people don't understand how devastating an impact the current War in Iraq has had and will have on the way we live our lives. Increased continued spending for this war has created a huge, glaring deficit - and because of this the US dollar is weak. Our deficit is so large, we're borrowing money from other countries (ie: China) just to continue fighting this war (which has actually been a needless war from the very beginning). Once they (they, being Ching, as we are dependent on them as consumers) ask for us to repay our debt, the value of the American dollar will plummet, and paper money will be useless. We will enter a new depression.

[damionford]

At 6/26/07 11:43 PM, PretzelsDino wrote: A lot of people don't understand how devastating an impact the current War in Iraq has had and will have on the way we live our lives. Increased continued spending for this war has created a huge, glaring deficit - and because of this the US dollar is weak. Our deficit is so large, we're borrowing money from other countries (ie: China) just to continue fighting this war (which has actually been a needless war from the very beginning). Once they (they, being Ching, as we are dependent on them as consumers) ask for us to repay our debt, the value of the American dollar will plummet, and paper money will be useless. We will enter a new depression.

yea where did you get your statitics from? The U.S. economy at the present time isn't anywhere near a depression and the only way to get there is through a stock market crash or huge spending loss which the U.S. won't have anytime soon because we are part of the
world bank

[cellardoor6]

At 6/26/07 11:43 PM, PretzelsDino wrote: A lot of people don't understand how devastating an impact the current War in Iraq has had and will have on the way we live our lives. Increased continued spending for this war has created a huge, glaring deficit

Um we spend 3.5% of our GDP on military spending... that's pretty small actually.

and because of this the US dollar is weak.

Actually the US dollar is weaker for a number of reasons, but this is all speculative, that is how the market works. Less US bonds are being bought because there is speculation about future US performance. Just the fact that the US is fighting two simultaneous wars, and is taking the lead in confronting two rogue nations causes negative speculation. So the value of the dollar goes down, it's not always directly reflective of the economic performance of the US.

Our deficit is so large, we're borrowing money from other countries (ie: China) just to continue fighting this war

You don't know what you're talking about. The US doesn't "borrow" money from countries. They buy our bonds even though we have a deficit, so they "buy" our debt. They do this because the US economy is still the strongest in the world and despite recent drops in value, the US dollar is still the most stable.

The Iraq war actually doesn't really affect anything economy-wise, some would even argue it is helping our economy by boosting industry in the military sector.

ask for us to repay our debt, the value of the American dollar will plummet, and paper money will be useless. We will enter a new depression.

You seriously have no clue what you're talking about. The US doesn't owe money to China, we don't have to "pay them back" it doesn't work that way. They bought our debt by buying our bonds even though we have a spending deficit, they do this because they expect the value of the dollar to go up eventually, thus leading to a profit margin when they sell those bonds later.

You don't pay them back with money, it doesn't work that way. You're using your own silly logic to base all of this on, you don't really understand how it works.

Meanwhile, the US is still the world's most competitive economy, as it has been for the past 14 years. Also, despite what you think, there are A LOT of countries whose debts are higher in proportion to their income. The US just gets a lot of attention for it because our economy is huge in the first place, so we have a large debt, yet our debt is relatively small in comparison to our yearly income.

[PretzelsDino]

I was using laymen's terms. Here is a good article:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_04/stot t101404.html

[fahrenheit]

At 6/27/07 12:29 AM, PretzelsDino wrote: I was using laymen's terms. Here is a good article:

http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_04/stot t101404.html

so you summarized an article and now that you have no response you link to it?
how pathetic

[cellardoor6]

Oh, and just for a little comparison, let's take a look at the external debt of the US and a bunch of other countries and compare it to GDP PPP (gross domestic product, in purchasing power parody) which is yearly income.

USA
External debt: $10,040,000,000,000 ($10.04 trillion).
GDP PPP: $13.13 Trillion

So we actually make more each year than the total amount of money we're in debt. Our debt is about 75% of our income.

Now, let's compare this to some "well-to-do" countries that I'm sure nobody would consider to be in debt as much as we are.

UK
External debt: $8,280,000,000,000 ($8.2 Trillion)
GDP PPP: $1.93 trillion

So their debt is more than 400% of their their yearly income.

Germany
External debt: $ 3,904,000,000,000 ($3.9 trillion)
GDP PP: $2.63 trillion

So Germany's debt is about 80% higher than their yearly income.

Now let's try a country that NOBODY would think is deeper in debt than the US:

Switzerland
External debt: $ 1,077,000,000,000 ($1.07 trillion)
GDP PPP: $255.5 billion

So their debt is over 300% of their income.

So these countries are much more in debt than we are, but their absolute debt is just smaller because their economies are smaller. The US debt is just huge because we have a huge economy.

But people don't understand this because they'd rather just say "OMG the US is 10 trillion in debt lolz!" without realizing the actual context. They'd rather spit out a huge number and get that sort of reaction than explain that it is actually relatively low compared to other prosperous nations when put into context.

kthxbai

[JakeHero]

At 6/26/07 11:43 PM, PretzelsDino wrote: A lot of people don't understand how devastating an impact the current War in Iraq has had and will have on the way we live our lives.

Um, typically wars boost the economy of the winning side. Seeing as how we've won every engagement I'll say the US is winning.

Increased continued spending for this war has created a huge, glaring deficit

This post informs me you don't even have a rudimentary understanding of civics. We've had this trade deficit(Surprisingly enough) since the days of James Town. We've had a recession since the Great Depression, the only difference is that it propotionally grows with the overall economy.

- and because of this the US dollar is weak.

Forex has very little relevance to the economy! If we wanted too, we could set our artifically exchange rate very high like China and European countries, but we play fair.

Our deficit is so large, we're borrowing money from other countries (ie: China) just to continue fighting this war (which has actually been a needless war from the very beginning).

Our deficit is smaller fractionally compared to other countries. It's higher because our economy is the largest. Let me put it this way, if every country had the exact, same economy size you'd find alot of them owe alot more money because they owe a greater percentage to the deficit.
http://www.physicsforums.com/archive/index.ph p/t-97734.html

Once they (they, being Ching, as we are dependent on them as consumers)

Um, no fuckwit. We're the consumers since they sell us the products and we buy.

ask for us to repay our debt, the value of the American dollar will plummet, and paper money will be useless. We will enter a new depression.

First, don't bother posting again. Right now our economy is doing quite well and continues to grow. http://blog.nam.org/archives/2005/12/the_econ omys_do_1.php The only way this scenario you describe would happen is if the entire American infastructure was shattered. We wouldn't be able to compete any more in geo-economics. What you describe is bullshit. The value of the dollar would not become toiletpaper for not repaying ONE nation.

[K-RadPie]

Um, typically wars boost the economy of the winning side. Seeing as how we've won every engagement I'll say the US is winning.

Isn't that what they said about Vietnam?

And to the OP, you know nothing about how economics work. Go read a book.

[Korriken]

militarily we kicked 'nam's ass. its just the lack of support at home, and the problem of not being able to tell friend from foe that we lost that one.

[Jizzlebang]

The US economy is the most powerful in the world, and it's going to stay that way for a long time, so shutty.

[JakeHero]

At 6/27/07 11:44 AM, K-RadPie wrote: Isn't that what they said about Vietnam?

We were winning in Vietnam since our objective was to keep the commies from taking over South Vietnam.

[M3ntally-Unstable]

At 6/27/07 06:10 PM, JakeHero wrote

We were winning in Vietnam since our objective was to keep the commies from taking over South Vietnam.

The vietcong kicked our asses hardcore. We totally lost vietnam.
The war successfully reunified the Vietnamese under a communist government.
Just because the american people decided to give up before they were beaten doesn't mean we managed to avoid defeat.

[JakeHero]

At 6/27/07 06:19 PM, M3ntally-Unstable wrote: The vietcong kicked our asses hardcore. We totally lost vietnam.

What the fuck are you talking about? They were massared by our soldiers. I'll give the statistics.

:Number of North Vietnamese Soldiers and Vietcong killed or missing in action.
800,000 KIA and - 300,000 MIA

Number of American Soldiers killed or missing in action.

58,209 KIA and - 1,948 MIA

Oh yeah, they really walked all over us in that war. Not only do their compared total MIA and KIA exceed one million, but ours combined doesn't even reach 100k. Dude, just don't commenting. We were slowly winning that war and due to certain political demographs, we pulled out and left million of civilians massacred. Not only did we slaughter their military, but no Vietnam territory was taken over while were there. That was the objective of Vietnam.

The war successfully reunified the Vietnamese under a communist government.

Wtf do you mean the war? I blame the UN and North Vietnam for that, plus lefties over here.

Just because the american people decided to give up before they were beaten doesn't mean we managed to avoid defeat.

We lost because of our retreat, but were winning the war up until that point.

[K-RadPie]

IMHO, I believe it should be up to generals, not politicians and hippies, to decide when we're winning and when we need to retreat.

[JakeHero]

At 6/27/07 06:42 PM, K-RadPie wrote: IMHO, I believe it should be up to generals, not politicians and hippies, to decide when we're winning and when we need to retreat.

Exactly. And due to political pressure, we jumped at a chance to sign any piece of paper offering a truce(Even though the North didn't keep their end of the accord, not surprising considering commies are subhuman).

[TwO-FaCeD-PaRaNoID]

The Main problem is over-consumption. You guys buy to much stuff!
You have a negative on you're supply balance(or whatever you call that thing in English) so you export less then you import. But if the dollar is weak, that can only mean that in the future you will export more, because of the cheap dollar.

[cellardoor6]

At 6/28/07 05:58 AM, TwO-FaCeD-PaRaNoID wrote: The Main problem is over-consumption. You guys buy to much stuff!

That is actually a good thing... modern economics revolves around consumerism. Countries that consume the most grow the most, and their economies get the most attention, investment etc..

You have a negative on you're supply balance(or whatever you call that thing in English) so you export less then you import.

Yes, we have a trade deficit. But you need to realize that trade all together only accounts for 1/4 of the US GDP. Our yearly (and absolute) trade deficit and external debt is only a small fraction of our GDP.

As I proved before, a lot of countries are in much higher debt than we are.

The reason the US dollar value has gone down is because of a whole host of issues, our economic performance is actually only a small portion of it considering the US economy is still performing better than any major industrialized nation.

Speculation is what causes less people to buy US bonds, and more of the bond-holders to try and sell them off, that causes the value to go down. Tomorrow, if people thought that there was an imminent threat to the US manufacturing industry, the dollar value would go down, even if it never ended up happening and US production remained the same or even actually got better, the value of the dollar would still go down.

But if the dollar is weak, that can only mean that in the future you will export more, because of the cheap dollar.

That's right, so it could be good or bad, it's not a double edged sword. However, we don't have much to worry about.

[TwO-FaCeD-PaRaNoID]

Isn't it true that it actually is George Bush's policy to keep the dollar weak so the trade deficit is clearing up?

[JoS]

The US is currently the most powerful economy in the world. However that could change in the next 10-20 years if they continue the slow rate of growth, the deficit continues to grow and China or India are able to maintain similar rates of growth to what they have right now.

Also despite the debt being $10 trillion or some number like that, the majority of that is internal debt (ie owed to US citizens through bonds) the rest ($3.5 I believe) is foriegn debt owed to countries like Japan, Saudi Arabia and such.

The funny thing is all debts intenrationally are measured in US dollars. So technically the US could just print off $3.5 trillion to pay off their debt, which no other country in the world can do. However that would probally have some very negative results.

[Jackotrades]

Currently right now the American Economy is in debt, (around 10 billion i think). This war will not help at all. So what if we somehow manage to finish the war and bring home the troops? i predicted tax spikes and higher gas prices in the future.

[JoS]

At 6/28/07 10:26 AM, Jackotrades wrote: (around 10 billion i think).

Try multiplying that by 100.

[K-RadPie]

At 6/28/07 07:01 PM, JoS wrote:

At 6/28/07 10:26 AM, Jackotrades wrote: (around 10 billion i think).

Try multiplying that by 100.

Then try multiplying THAT by 10. lol owned.

[JoS]

At 6/28/07 07:17 PM, K-RadPie wrote:

At 6/28/07 07:01 PM, JoS wrote:

At 6/28/07 10:26 AM, Jackotrades wrote: (around 10 billion i think).

Try multiplying that by 100.

Then try multiplying THAT by 10. lol owned.

Shut up!

[SyntheticTacos]

At 6/28/07 07:17 PM, K-RadPie wrote:

At 6/28/07 07:01 PM, JoS wrote:

At 6/28/07 10:26 AM, Jackotrades wrote: (around 10 billion i think).

Try multiplying that by 100.

Then try multiplying THAT by 10. lol owned.

Now try finding the complete square root of 2. lol owned more.

The sad thing is is that we can actually play around with the number like that.

[The-Kerberos]

The American economy is extremely powerful but sooner or later doomed to fail at the rate it's going. The last time I checked the statistics, approximately 70% or so of American's profit comes from imports. And we have around a few trillion dollars in debt. If those imports are suddenly cut off for some reason or another the economy may likely topple.

[SmilezRoyale]

Cellardor i just want to let you know that i love you.

You articulate your arguments perfectly, You provide evidence; much of which is never even questioned [a good way to 'cheat' by making the person's argument invalid, and to assure your teamates who might have they're beleifs waver, return to your side] You use something called a CONJECTURE, you rarely bash your competition to the point where they're too plastered to even admit to being wrong, rather, just comment on your anger.

[K-RadPie]

Cellardor i just want to let you know that i love you.

Too bad, I already got dibs >:(

[Memorize]

At 6/28/07 10:21 AM, JoS wrote: The US is currently the most powerful economy in the world. However that could change in the next 10-20 years if they continue the slow rate of growth, the deficit continues to grow and China or India are able to maintain similar rates of growth to what they have right now.

The US should stop being a superpower.

Maybe it might get the enviornmentalist wack jobs to back off.

You know... I sure do wish China passes us.

[SmilezRoyale]

At 6/28/07 08:51 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 6/28/07 10:21 AM, JoS wrote: The US is currently the most powerful economy in the world. However that could change in the next 10-20 years if they continue the slow rate of growth, the deficit continues to grow and China or India are able to maintain similar rates of growth to what they have right now.

The US should stop being a superpower.

Maybe it might get the enviornmentalist wack jobs to back off.

You know... I sure do wish China passes us.

Lets just hope if that's the case, they're leader doesn't have delusions of grandure.

I fucking hate imperialists...

[SyntheticTacos]

At 6/28/07 08:51 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 6/28/07 10:21 AM, JoS wrote: The US is currently the most powerful economy in the world. However that could change in the next 10-20 years if they continue the slow rate of growth, the deficit continues to grow and China or India are able to maintain similar rates of growth to what they have right now.

The US should stop being a superpower.

Maybe it might get the enviornmentalist wack jobs to back off.

You know... I sure do wish China passes us.

After what their government did to the people who practiced Falun Gong and anyone who opposed them in any way that they deemed a threat? There's no debate on whether China's "interrogation" techniques are torture- they still have tons of forced labor camps scattered across the country. We can hope that there will be democratic reform but we should not regard them as being better than us human-rights wise at all.