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OF COARSE WE NEED RELIGION!!! Or it would be like the
LA riots 24/7!

No I don't belive we need religion what has god done for us, I mean he parted an ocean for a little group of people whose descendants ultimatly killed his kid, but he wont stop a couple of planes from flying into buildings for a nation that alows freedom to choose religion. I mean what kind of god alows that crap to happen to innocent people. We should just blow religion out the window and start our own.

At 6/15/03 12:53 PM, BootlegJones wrote: OF COARSE WE NEED RELIGION!!! Or it would be like the
LA riots 24/7!

And how would you know this, professor Extra Sensory Perception???

At 6/15/03 10:10 AM, bumcheekycity wrote: Thats a really good argument, men only createdgods because they couldn't explain life.

Yes yes yes yes yes!!

If you think about it, the origin of religion is extremely easy to explain.

Go outside and look at the moon. Now we have always taken the moon for granted as a thing that's just always there, but when you think about it, you know it's a giant spherical object reflecting the sun that is revolving around the thing you're standing on.
Now imagine you're an ancient Aztec living in a village in 5000 B.C. You look up at the moon and possibly take it for granted as just a thing that's there, but when you really think about it, you are absolutely dumbfounded as to what the hell it is. So you probably assume it's either God or A God.
Same with other natural phenomena such as lightning. We know that it's static electricity being released by the friction of clouds above. But back in 5000 B.C. you are probably instantly convinced that it's God being pissed off, and you think about what you did or what happened to set that off and make sure not to do that anymore. Once you have a collection of 'understandings of God', you have a religion. The religion builds and evolves over time.

Think about the religions around Jesus' time. The Greeks and Romans believed in multiple Gods, including the aforementioned 'Moon God' which we now know is an absurd idea. They believed in such things as a main God who sits atop a mountain and throws lightning bolts at people (hence the aforementioned 'Lightning God'). They told a story about a mortal man who WALKED into Hell to save a girl, and came back to Earth. There is a reason that Literature classes teach these ideas to you as 'Greek Mythology'. They are obviously myths, but they teach you things such as morals.

Then the Old Testament came along and religion evolved a bit more. From this, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are all based, and the latter two dominate the world's religious beliefs. And some of the ideas in this book are not that far from 'Greek Mythology' in their absurdity:
Moses parting the Red Sea.
A snake tempting the first humans.
Noah and his ark that apparently held two of each animal, including, of course, every type of insect, microscopic organism, bacteria, virus, and DNA strand that exists in the world today.

Maybe 'Do we even need religion' is the wrong question. Perhaps the question is 'Why do most people believe they have the origin of the universe perfectly figured out because they read a book and attended a church?'

A tad off topic, but does it always amuse you when you hear about a cult on the news, brainwashing people by filling their heads with false beliefs as they all sit in circles, led by a man in black telling you what you must do to achieve happiness/purity?

Sounds somewhat familiar to me, at least.

Religion is dangerous, as it has a framework that states what is Right and Wrong, and damn those that are not in the club. After all, look at the melting pot that is Northern Ireland, where blood is spilt regularly because you chose "wrong", and you're Catholic instead of Protestant, or vice versa. The same happens in Glasgow (making Blair's idea to make it a centralised Office, instead of the current borough system, ludicrous to the verge of being disasterous, by the way), and the same can be said of many other areas across Europe and the Middle East.

Hell, Nietzsche was wrong: God isn't dead - God was repackaged, as today He is a dollar bill to some, a flag to others, and a burden to those who believe, and thousands of variations down to those that believe God is Michael Jackson, or God just left.

Christianity is founded on death, and fills you up with thoughts that you are constantly in Sin, which fucks with your head more than membership to the Manson Family, as you live a life of repenting, absolution, and pennance.

Judaism has caused strife with Israel, after Millenia of being a nomadic religion, they are given a "home", and it is a boiling point of current world politics (although they seem to be the one smiting, as opposed to being the smited - ask any Palestinian), while Islam is portrayed as some form of Devil, especially Fundamentalist Islam.

Fine, have your religion, choose your beliefs, just don't force them upon others, dictate them to your children, and keep them away from me. I'm happy to have "N/A" listed as my religion, as it means I can feel secure that at least one aspect of my life isn't turned to shit by others.

At 6/15/03 04:18 PM, leperchaun81 wrote:

:he wont stop a couple of planes from flying into buildings for a nation that alows freedom to choose religion. I mean what kind of god alows that crap to happen to innocent people.

If we had no pain, we wouldn't know pleasure. If we didn't have misery, we wouldn't have happiness. No one said life was fair, not God, no one. Did you seriously expect to be born into Utopia?

At 6/15/03 04:18 PM, leperchaun81 wrote: No I don't belive we need religion what has god done for us, I mean he parted an ocean for a little group of people whose descendants ultimatly killed his kid, but he wont stop a couple of planes from flying into buildings for a nation that alows freedom to choose religion. I mean what kind of god alows that crap to happen to innocent people. We should just blow religion out the window and start our own.

Define "innocent people."

For example, the WTC was mainly a base for law firms and the like, and isn't lyinmg your ass off for profit at least two majorly bad sins to be committing?

At 6/16/03 08:39 AM, D2KVirus wrote: Define "innocent people."

For example, the WTC was mainly a base for law firms and the like, and isn't lyinmg your ass off for profit at least two majorly bad sins to be committing?

I hate bleeding my heart out over 9/11, but think about all the 'innocent' people involved that weren't 'lying for profit'.
I find it hard to believe that every single person killed was a giant dickhead. I find it even harder to believe that everyone those people knew that were scarred by their deaths were assholes as well. And certainly many of those in the hospital, those whose property was damaged, and those whose sense of well-being was shattered were genuinely good people.
So why would God, being the all-good, all-seeing, all-knowing, and all-powerful perfect being that he is, allow these people to suffer? Wouldn't there be a better way to teach people how to differentiate pain from pleasure?

I mean fuck, if God can create a universe, mold the stars and planets, create each speck of life and intelligent life, and also do things like rain fire on cities, why can't he push a plane a little off course so it lands in the ocean instead?

Religion was created by early man (probably in prehistoric times)to explain phenomena beyond the knowledge of man (ex. where everything comes from, why things happen the way they do, etc.) Now that man is capable of understanding more about his surroundings (using science), religion is no longer as necessary.

I swear, if I have to listen to one more person listen to the "God couldn't do that to innocent people" thing, I'm going to go crazy (if I'm not already).... Look, God does not control 100% of everything. Why would we even be having this argument if we did? You would be dead, I would be dead - we'd all probably be dead for doing something stupid, hating an innocent person, defying God, or many of the other attrosities that humans commit from time to time. God doesn't "let" things happen to innocent people, they just HAPPEN. It's called - get this - free will. God gave it to us, why? because if we were all just robots that followed everything he did, always obeyed him, etc, what kind of creation would that be? Man can do that. Who do you think loves you more - a girlfriend who chooses to or a sister who is "forced" to? So, with free will came stupid people. And with said stupid people also came evil, twisted people who decide it's ok to kill thousands for their God. So, I guess if you still make the innocence argument, the only God you can definitely rule out following is Allah. But remember - God doesn't "let" those things happen. He just let us have a choice, and we have to deal with people who choose.... "not so wisely".

My argument is not that all those people were necessarily innocent. That would imply that they are receiving a judgement. I merely view it as physical laws applying themselves in a random way, since there is no real reason for why we exist.

Truthfully, I don't really care about anyone that died or was injured in that whole deal. I'm sure if I personally KNEW someone that was involved, I would feel differently.

I wish we could get a statistic of the percentage of people that prayed during the attacks.

Religion is good because it invokes our imagination.It is a part of everyone's psyche whether they embrace it or rebel against it.It's greatest gift is to invoke us to consider the nature and longevity of conciousness...

All Modern legal systems are evolved from Religious Law, no matter what country you live in, it is even ingrained into communism.You may regect Religious Law but you cannot imagine an existence without it, as it is inherent to your psyche.

The Primordial Soup forms the basis for FORMATION Theory, not CREATION Theory.
Religion deals with the Creation of the Primordial soup, i accept the Universe is FORMED from Primordial soup, but if i observe the Law of cause and effect i am then invited to ask what CREATED Primordial soup ! Everything that exists in the Universe must have been created, so the only way to Create the Universe is for an infinite force/entity to exist outside of that Universe.It is impossible to CREATE from Nothingness.Even an artist has a brain as their tool...

Whether someone suffers cannot be used to discount whether God exists, as our brains cannot even imagine how an infinite being would organise the World.

Religion is part of the Human psyche, it is inherent in our legal systems, even in communist Law.
Morality itself was born from the belief in the continuation of conciousness after we die.Whether we rebel against it or embrace it, it exists in all of us.

Primordial soup is a FORMATION Theory and not a CREATIONIST Theory.Sure we are FORMED from Primordial soup but, everything in the Universe exists and thus must have been CREATED into existence following simple cause and effect logic.The only way to have CREATED the Universe is if it was from something that exists outside of the Universe.
In Judaism we call this force an infinite God.

I do not see how the existence of suffering can logically lead to saying God doesn't exist.If God is infinite we would be incapable of understanding the true nature and purpose of suffering.

sorry for posting the same thing x 2 ...comp errors blah blah ...

Primordial soup is a FORMATION Theory and not a CREATIONIST Theory.Sure we are FORMED from Primordial soup but, everything in the Universe exists and thus must have been CREATED into existence following simple cause and effect logic.The only way to have CREATED the Universe is if it was from something that exists outside of the Universe.
In Judaism we call this force an infinite God.

I do not see how the existence of suffering can logically lead to saying God doesn't exist.If God is infinite we would be incapable of understanding the true nature and purpose of suffering.

With the suffering argument I wasn't discounting completely the idea of a God, just the idea of an omni-benevolent (or all-good) God, which most popular religions tend to embrace. Not many people can even consider the idea that God is not how they imagine, a big guy that watches over and protects us. It's more likely that God is not a being, but something that spawned existence, rather than dictating the positions and movements of all celestial structures and creating life by hand.

So this kind of God solves one problem: where did matter come from? God did it. Now the only problem is figuring out what caused God to exist.

At 6/18/03 07:10 PM, torq wrote: So this kind of God solves one problem: where did matter come from? God did it. Now the only problem is figuring out what caused God to exist.

Then you're talking about things beyond the realms of physics, science and even reality. We can't even begin to fathom the possibilites or pretend to be able to know.

i¡­ve noticed that a lot of you have used the ¡¯it had to come from somewhere so I¡­m going to jump to the conclusion that it was god without exploring other possible explanations then call you an idiot¡¯ argument. What if, just maybe maybe, everything came into existence in a way thats longer than 3 friggin letters? I totally believe in the theory of alternate universes. I am one being. I know that other people are beings too, yet I cannot see from their point of view (in a literal sense) or feel anything that they do, yet through all of this I am sure they exist in a very similar manner to me. Now, in a way, that seems to be an alternate universe theory in itself. Perhaps our universe came to exist from another universe? Perhaps everything just appeared all of a sudden? Perhaps wormholes, black holes and all those other holes all of a sudden appeared and spat out our existence? What if everything is just too wonderfully miraculous to have a sentient entity behind it?

The way i see it you either believe in infinite Chaos and Nothingness or infinite Order from an infinite source...this is what we call God...

I believe science is a way to explain how God works, we know the same matter can coexist in a different Space at the same Time, so it would follow that identical dimensions can coexist with ours, but remember if you try to imagine any form of order into Chaos Theory you end up with infinite Order i.e.God.
If you say another Universe made ours, one that is within a non-matter dimension and posses order you believe in God, if you think it was born of Chaos you don't...

I think if matter is subject to a transcendual infinite order then so are we as Humans...

Bad news for Fundamentalist Christians, though, they're poster boys just succumbed to the lure of "Satanic Heavy Metal Music."

At 6/19/03 09:49 AM, D2KVirus wrote: Bad news for Fundamentalist Christians, though, they're poster boys just succumbed to the lure of "Satanic Heavy Metal Music."

Evil supports bush...Satan Loves Bush

At 6/19/03 11:19 AM, nitroxide wrote:
Evil supports bush...Satan Loves Bush

Yeah, but my pic ain't doctored.

( Rough Translation: 8========D)

Ok we all know that religion has its merits. Other than the fact that it gives one a sense of well-being, protection, and meaning in life, it also allows people of similar tastes and attitudes to congregate together in a (generally) peaceful manner. And it tends to teach people morals.

Now on to the bad things. Religion can be a very dangerous tool. Constant reinforcement of an idea develops a schema in the minds of those that believe. A schema, as I have said before, is basically an idea or theory that a person comes to accept as fact, and because the brain is hard-wired to believe the idea, that person cannot fathom the possibility that any opposing theory or idea could be true. Once the brain is working in this manner, any time someone presents evidence that opposes the person's belief, they respond by either 1. ignoring the message or 2. coming up with an explanation/excuse.

Ever heard of science fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard? In the 70s he created a religion called Scientology. In the 90s he finally admitted that his religion was completely false and repeatedly stated that he only created it to see if he could get people to believe in it. 50,000 people worldwide still practice Scientology.

What if Jesus had said 'Oh just kidding, I made that all up guys. Just wanted to see if you'd believe me.' All of his followers would most likely come up with an explanation for it. 'Oh it's a test to see if we really believe!!!'

Schemas can be very dangerous in certain cases. Religious persecution for the entireity of written history have been schemas in the minds of followers. Other schemas have included the Salem witch trials, Nazi beliefs, McCarthyism (the persecution of communists), and most recently, American patriotism combined with the strong feeling that 'terrorism must be stopped'. In all cases, an idea was reinforced until a mass group accepted it as fact and supported it.

Muslim extremists have a schema. Christians have a schema. Even atheists such as myself hold a schema true to themselves and cannot have their minds changed. Keep that in mind next time I give good evidence as to why Christianity, Islam, Judaism, And nearly every major religion worlwide are false and therefore unnecessary. You WILL give a counter-argument spawned by your schema.

At 6/18/03 08:31 PM, Sophia_7 wrote: If you say another Universe made ours...

No, I don´t say that. I say our universe CAME out of another universe. Whatever the hell it was doing there in the first place is none of my business.

i run on so if you despise that to bad

first of all i must say that i dont care about religion i am an agnostic which is a nice athiest and many of you may wounder whats he mean by that? well ill tell you that means that i do not hate any religion but i have no god an athiest hates christians and another religion i forgot because i dont care. religion does so little for the betterment of mankind that people with "commonsence" know that its complete bull there is no god the never was or has been a god. people need to think about it i mean really think about it caould there really have been a god? listen to what people say he does....always watching....always lisitening.....always there....sounds like santa clauses atributes to me. now you religious people might think well there are miricals and ill say no because no one ever hears them, all the so called miracles were done 2000 years ago and beyond and never since then has there been another recorded one.

At 6/20/03 06:41 PM, damndifwedordont wrote: first of all i must say that i dont care about religion i am an agnostic which is a nice athiest and many of you may wounder whats he mean by that? well ill tell you that means that i do not hate any religion but i have no god an athiest hates christians and another religion i forgot because i dont care.

Just to clear this up:

An agnostic does not practice a religion. An agnostic is the 'undecided' category, a person who doesn't know, and doesn't care.

And atheist is someone that does not believe in God. (Theist means religious, atheist means not religious) Yes, some, probably lots of atheists hate christianity, but it is not one of the principles of atheism.

That's the cool part about atheism: there's no rule to it. The simplest belief someone can have. No God.