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torq:

Do you NEED clothes?

Now tell me...do you desire them? Or wear them? Or rely on them?

Once you realize that almost NOTHING on earth is based on need, you'll realize exactly what Commander already said. Other than air, food and water...we "need" nothing.

Am I Christian? Yes. Do I personally need my faith? Yes. Does everyone NEED to believe the same thing I do?

No.

Everyone's different.

yes.. we need religion so that we can see about the good and evil doings. if u have no religion u can do anything which sometimes can cause harm to a certain person. like if u belive that there is God and there is bible. u can clearly see that by doing good can please God. if u have no fear to God meaning you have no fear in doing bad things. but if you fear God you can refrain from doing evil.My point is that if u have religion there is a posibility that u can do good more than doing evil. Especially if you are a Christian and a true followers of God.

At 6/9/03 01:00 AM, lite_james wrote: yes.. we need religion so that we can see about the good and evil doings. if u have no religion u can do anything which sometimes can cause harm to a certain person. like if u belive that there is God and there is bible. u can clearly see that by doing good can please God. if u have no fear to God meaning you have no fear in doing bad things. but if you fear God you can refrain from doing evil.My point is that if u have religion there is a posibility that u can do good more than doing evil. Especially if you are a Christian and a true followers of God.

Perhapwe could have a spelling/grammar check on that, no?

Anyway, I disagree with what you have just said. Osama Bin Ladne has a God (Allah) but that didn't stop him flying planes into buildings and killing 3,000 people. In fact, OBL used Allah as the excuse for doing such a thing.

I have no god, but I kinda believe there might be a God out there somewhere... maybe. I do things based on morals. I don't kill because I have a moral objection to it. I dont carry signs saying 'GOD HATES FAGS' to the funeral of AIDS sufferers because I have no moral objection to Gays or their lifestyle.

God didn't tell me to do this stuff, its just my morals telling me what to do.

My point here is that there is no way to figure out the complete process..... it's possible to understand to an extent, but never possible to understand it ALL. Our knowledge and thinking are limited. Once you figure something out, you can always go deeper to figure out more... consider the case that we do figure out how the universe was created, that will only lead to more unanswered questions, and if we figure those out, there comes a point where you cannot figure out anymore because logic is limited. Logic is not almighty for logic itself has to be created by something greater. Because we all know that it does not make sense for logic to have existed forever, because everything must have a start, and using logic, there are only 2 possible cases: either logic existed forever or it was created. But that makes you wonder, how is it possible that logic existed forever? It does not make sense using logic, that logic itself has existed forever. These types of contradictions are limitations bound by our universe, because they are the only "tools" we have. So no matter how hard we try, we will never figure out the entire puzzle. Not everything in the world is supposed to make sense, because logic is just a way to view life that humans invented. How compatible and how much logic can accomplish in terms of discovering the universe is only so much. (i.e. faith is another way to make sense of the world). And using all possible methods (logic, faith, mathematics, irrational thinking, etc), they are all limited and even combined cannot figure out what is out of our domain because our tools belong to this universe and our universe doesn't have enough tools we can use to completely understand what is outside of it. Just like someone who does not have the ability to see will never experience the world like someone who can see. Regardless of how well their other senses work, they will never experience the ability to see, and will miss out in experiencing the world in a certain way. You have to understand that humans have only so many senses, we can only see up to 3 dimensions, we can only think and make sense of things because the moment something stops making sense, our thinking reaches its limitation. All these facts are clear indications that all our abilities are limited, and clearly demonstrates that it is not possible to understand everything. The question I'm trying to answer is not how our universe came into existence but rather how did "existence itself come into existence". We may figure out how our universe came into existence one day, but we will never figure out how existence came into existence, because that is outside of the domain of existence and is not defined. Which is why the outer-universe (what I meant to say is actually the outer-existence)... whatever is outside the domain of existence can never be figured out. That is what I meant by the computer program example. Everything that can possibly exist, everything that you can possibly think of is inside existence, but it is limited just like how a computer program can only do so much in what it is programmed to do and will never be able to figure out what is not programmed into its domain of capabilites.

What's the good in trying to understand something that we know we won't figure it all out besides just making ourselves nuts?
Humans are limited and sometimes we have to accept that we won't have the answer for everything and just move on with our lives.

some people belive and some people don't. i say we dont really need religion because we have our own free will and can do wat we want with our lives. so the 'GODS' cannot change our lives it is just a matter of luck. e.g. if we find $100 note on the floor etc.

At 6/9/03 02:59 AM, AntiClock wrote: My point here is that there is no way to figure out the complete process..... :

If you want to figure out why, I would suggest the silliness of philosophy. And argue to kingdomcome.

it's possible to understand to an extent, but never possible to understand it ALL. :

Understand all of what?

Our knowledge and thinking are limited. Once you figure something out, you can always go deeper to figure out more... consider the case that we do figure out how the universe was created, that will only lead to more unanswered questions, and if we figure those out, there comes a point where you cannot figure out anymore :

Can't figure what out anymore? How the universe was created or why the universe was created? Besides, there are some things in the universe that are fundamental in which you cannot "go any deeper."

Logic is not almighty for logic itself has to be created by something greater. :

Yes, we are the something greater that created logic. If you are implying a creator, justify your assertion though please.

Because we all know that it does not make sense for logic to have existed forever, because everything must have a start, and using logic, there are only 2 possible cases: either logic existed forever or it was created. :

Easy, man "created" logic just like mathematics...but you know what? It works! But I fail to see your point.

But that makes you wonder, how is it possible that logic existed forever? It does not make sense using logic, that logic itself has existed forever. These types of contradictions are limitations bound by our universe, because they are the only "tools" we have. :

What other tools do you suggest we use? When it comes to explaining the universe, the tools of scientists are reasoning, logic, and the mighty Scientific Theory. What better way to do it? Just because something is not perfect does not mean it cannot do a good job. Offer an alternative!

So no matter how hard we try, we will never figure out the entire puzzle. :

I disagree. We may not be able to answer everything at this particular momement but we will be able to one day. Scientific advancement is not revolutionary, it is evolutionary. It takes time.

Not everything in the world is supposed to make sense, because logic is just a way to view life that humans invented. How compatible and how much logic can accomplish in terms of discovering the universe is only so much. (i.e. faith is another way to make sense of the world). :

Faith although is another construct of man is not like Logic. Logic poses rules in which things can be validated or invalidated, faith doesn't.

We may figure out how our universe came into existence one day, but we will never figure out how existence came into existence :

Seems rather silly. The Universe is existence. The Universe always has been. Before the universe, there was, well, nothing in a scientific point of view because space/time did not exist before the big bang therefore nothing could have "existed."

because that is outside of the domain of existence and is not defined. Which is why the outer-universe (what I meant to say is actually the outer-existence)... whatever is outside the domain of existence can never be figured out. :

Then why bother? Sounds more like a dream world. If something cannot even be observed then it for all practical purposes, it does not exist. Fun to think about, but ultimately a waste of time.

I believe that religion is a healthy practice. I just hate how Atheism is becoming the religion of choice for wanna-be rebel punk kids who are looking for another reason the differentiate themselves from the norm. I am a freethinker, which means I don't follow any religion faithfully, but if jesus came to me one night I would believe christianity, but not follow it, the same thing if buddha were to do the same, i would believ buddhism. for some people religion and faith is the only thing that keeps them going, and no one positively knows what is true or flase because none of us has ever really been dead long enough to be sure. So if you want to be involved in any form of religion, do it and forget about what other people say, just do it for the right reasons.

I know this has been mentioned here before but I think it bears mentioning again, Religion is not Christianity. As someone who isn't Christian I can say nowhere in my faith does it say anything about whether you believe in god being the determining factor in being a moral person. (I'm taoist by the way) As for why people seek faith it's simple we do NEED it just like we need air or water, what hamanity needs isn't religion it's faith be that in god, yourself or science. Look out the window if you live in a rural area or think back to a scene of natural beauty in if yuo're an urbanite and tell me that doesn't touch something in you beyond the logical or rational and then say faith in something isn't necessary. I once referred to someone without being religion as being empty and I didn't intend it as an insult but rather as a sad thing a person without faith is a frightening thing. That is what leads to actions like suicide or random violence. Faith is necessary because it's what helps keep you human, and allows you to see life as more than a pain/pleasure equation.

At 6/9/03 02:34 PM, pogopennywise wrote: I believe that religion is a healthy practice. I just hate how Atheism is becoming the religion of choice for wanna-be rebel punk kids who are looking for another reason the differentiate themselves from the norm. I am a freethinker, which means I don't follow any religion faithfully, but if jesus came to me one night I would believe christianity, but not follow it, the same thing if buddha were to do the same, i would believ buddhism. for some people religion and faith is the only thing that keeps them going, and no one positively knows what is true or flase because none of us has ever really been dead long enough to be sure. So if you want to be involved in any form of religion, do it and forget about what other people say, just do it for the right reasons.

He's right. It's just that people are undermining their religion by declaring jihad and whatnot, and CLAMING to act in the name of their God. The true meaning of religion is beyond that.

Peace Chart 2001-2:
Major religions of the world based on total population of six billion, compiled 2001.

Christianity - 2bn (33%)
Islam - 1.3bn (22%)
Hinduism - 900m (15%)
Non-religious - 850m (14%)
Buddhism - 360m (6%)
Chinese Traditional - 225m (4%)
Primal Indiginous - 190m (3%)
Sikhism - 23m (.38%)
Yoruba - 20m (.33%)
Juche - 19m (.32%)
Spiritism - 14m (.23%)
Judaism - 14m (.23%)
Baha'i - 6m (.1%)
Jainism - 4m (.06%)
Shinto - 4m (.06%)
Cao Dai - 3m (.05%)
Tenriko - 2.4m (.04%)
Neo-Paganism - 1m (.017%)
Unitarianism - 800,000 (.013%)
Scientology - 750,000 (.012%)
Rastafarianism - 700,000 (.011%)
Zoroastrainism - 150,000 (.003%)

We do need religion. I could go on with this topic for pages upon pages of posts, but I am going to simplify: I am a strong-believing Christian. I am open to most of other peoples' religious beliefs, such as Muslims, Native Americans, Jews, Hindus, and so forth, because they all have belief in some form of a supreme being, and I respect such a belief. What I am not open to, however, is atheism. The world is far too remarkable to have come from any off 'mystery of science.' Being a scientifically-minded fellow, I can note that the big bang theory disproves itself by the laws of physics. According to the theory, all of the matter in the world was compressed into a dot about the size of a period on a paper. Now, first of all, matter cannot compress like that as a fair share of it has exact shape and is not resilient, and second, if all of the matter is inside that dot, there is no outside force to set it off, and by Newton's laws a reaction could not have occurred. Plus, the big bang theory fails to address the most important issue: where did this matter come from? It simply is nonsensical. Not to mention that the Bible has written very specific prophecy years before it's occurrence, such as the fall of Babylon. Religion has facts to support it, and of course, as the author said, no religion is perfectly made sense of, but then again, what in life is? That is why there must be faith in religion; the willpower to know that it is true without seeing it in concrete form. That's all for me. God bless, and good day.

So, according to this survey (Sam Solhaug/Foundation 33), it seems that many believe they do need religion, or have it forced upon them by birth.

Naturally, it shouldn't be a surprise that Christianity (and, by extention, Roman Catholic etc.) are topping the polls, and take up a whole third of the world's population. But doesn't it alarm you? TWO BILLION people folowing the same template for a belief system, and damn be they who go against them (after all, there were those Crusades going on for a start...), as well as being in charge of a large proportion of the most powerful nations on earth? Conspiracy theorists can jump in at this point to make a case for the persecution of Islam as alpha-religion chest beating, by the way...

Yet some things are thrown up. For example, there are 14m Jews on the planet, yet they seem to heve the US wrapped around their fingers (ask Ariel Sharon, he's quite chummy with ol' George), yet I doubt most of you have a clue what Juche or Yoruba, yet there are far more of them in the world (in North Korea and around Africa respectivly), and are they covered in any Religious Studies course? All I remember from RE was Christianity, Catholocism, and maybe a bit of Judaism (mainly the Holocaust, natch) and some PC Hindu and Sikh lessons, yet there are more people that didn't bother with religion, and are they on the syllabus? Nope, sorry, get in line behind the Shinto, since they only make up about 5% of the Japanese population. There may be more Sikhs than Texans (they shade it by just over 2m), but which of those is on the US school syllabus? Still, it's kinda funny there are more Neo-Pagans than there are people in North Dakota.

And, please, somebody tell me what the fuck Zoroastrainism is. The best I can get is they didn't quite get Hinduism spot on...

And remember, people, if all Islam are told to hate America, there's four times more of them than there are of you - hardly an even fight. Dogpile?

At 6/7/03 05:36 PM, OpIvy420 wrote:

At 6/7/03 01:16 PM, Commander-K25 wrote: By the way, the KKK and the Holoaust were not religious in any way

The Holocaust wasn't religiously motivated? The systematic genocide of millions of people because they happened to be Jewish wasn't religiously motivated?

The Nazis did not like the Jews for other reasons, to note. In fact, the first people killed were communists, journalists, and political prisoners, then came the Jews. It was an act of hate, but it was not an act of religion. The Nazi plan was to killed the smaller classes of people in order to strike fear into and then control the rest of the world. People who blame religion for the wars in the world need slapped. God doesn't condone nor cause war; that is society. So, in essence, the whole world is to blame. Making religion a scapegoat is the easy way out for people who hold no real argument.

At 6/12/03 03:05 PM, D2KVirus wrote: And, please, somebody tell me what the fuck Zoroastrainism is. The best I can get is they didn't quite get Hinduism spot on...

Zoroastrianism is faith believing in two brothers Ahura Mazda, the ultimate force for good in the universe and Ahriman the ultimate evil, most life and history is the result of these two brothers conflicts and the eternal war between them.

I'm having this discussion in the DAG home so ill say what ive said there:

Christianity is the biggest lie i have ever heard,Jesus story is by far the greatest story ever told but its just that a story,many religions have existed before its time,many of the events in Christianity Ex:the guiding,star,the virgin mother,the massacre of the children, it was all stolen from other religions.

A nymph bathing in a river in china is brushed by a lotus plant and the divine fohi is born.In Siam, the deliverer Codom was born when a sunbeam caressed a girl.(hence,sun of god)

If Jesus was real why cant we figure out when he was born,or for that matter where?The son of god was known from youth to be something great why was no one documenting his life...why dint the contemporaries of Jesus,the historians the authors of his time not take notice because he never was.

Its all crap what evidence is there that any of his associates existed,supposedly Paul went to Athens and preached from Mars hill,why is there no mention of him in the Athenian Chronicles.

In a thousand years future humans(If we survive,highly doubtful)will be able to look at history and see that there was an actual man by the name of Abraham lincoln,or George washington it was documented,what will they think of Jesus?

If anything,everything was misinterpreted...Jesus couldve been the first gay man(Kind of explains the 12 male diciples)the world hated him and murdered him and then created a religion just to rectify their mistake...

How do you know what youve been told its the truth.Faith is enough to satisfy you but not me...i never asked for video evidence i asked for actual proof from writters of his time.Are you gonna tell me nothing was salvaged from his time?

Excerpt from,M.M. Mangasarian's the truth about jesus:
To help there cause the christian apologist not infrequently also changed the sense of certain Old Testament passages to make them support the miraculous stories in the new testament.For exambl,having "borrowed" from oriental books the story of the god in the manger,sorrounded by staring animals,the christian fathers introduced a prediction of this event into the following text from the book of habakkuk in the bible:"Accomplish thy work in the midst of the years,in the midst of the years make known etc."(hebrews iii 2).This Old Testament text appeared in greek translation as follows:"Thou shalt manifest thyself in the midst of two animals,"which was fufilled ofcourse,when jesus was born in a stable.How weak must ones case be to resort to such tactics in order to command a following!

It really isnt known were he is born its another guess made by christian fathers "borrowed"ideas from other religions and events.Im trying to tell you that many of the beliefs of christianity are just speculations a man doesnt need religion to set morals for him, humanity should have that within themselves to excel for the good of all...

Did you know the sign of the cross is symbol stolen from ages before christianity.A symbol"Borrowed"from acient faiths of asia,even primative man would never forget the symbol of two sticks rubbing against eachother to make fire.They carved the cross as early as stone age...on monuments which have been dugout and can be viewed in museums in europe.

Hell,the symbol of a man on the cross dint appear until 800 years after his supposed crucifixion.if anything jesus was hung,luke wrote about the two thieves:"One of the malefactors that was hanged with him."The christians at early times were called the "followers of the god that was hanged".

Hell what im saying is we dont know anything and its not needed it has been implanted in our heads that we need it commander is right only the basics of life are truly needed.Religion is a tool to control the masses to keep us seperated..."Divide and conquer"

One a side note hey biteme i see you finally made your way to the Politics Forum...i guess you found a topic you like.Bite is the only christian allowed in the atheist crew...

Can you imagine all the Christians (yes, all 2,000,000,000 of them) walking around with nooses around their necks? Hey, maybe having a statue of a guy swinging in tune to Kumbayah (sic) would be just what the religion needs: A bit of self-parody.

At 6/13/03 08:40 AM, nitroxide wrote: Did you know the sign of the cross is symbol stolen from ages before christianity.

If anyone borrowed the cross, it was the Romans. Christianity uses the cross as its symbol not because they claim it to be original, but because it just happened to be the shape of the wood nailed together in Roman crucifixtions.

Hell,the symbol of a man on the cross dint appear until 800 years after his supposed crucifixion.if anything jesus was hung,luke wrote about the two thieves:"One of the malefactors that was hanged with him."The christians at early times were called the "followers of the god that was hanged".

Would be nice if you had sources.

Nitoxide, the big thing you overlook is why Jesus was ever made the center of a religion if he was not a historical figure. Did some people just get together in Judea about 2000 years ago and say "Hey, let's start a religion and invent a savior to go along with it."

The very fact that a religion began around him, is proof enough that he at least existed, even if you don't believe in his divinity.

And once again, the focus is placed purely on Christianity. Many so-called atheists are really just anti-Christian. How about you analyze Muhammed's historicity?

At 6/13/03 09:29 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:
And once again, the focus is placed purely on Christianity. Many so-called atheists are really just anti-Christian. How about you analyze Muhammed's historicity?

Well they're even more biased against others, because they understand so little about Islam, etc in the US.

At 6/12/03 03:01 PM, Flotis wrote: What I am not open to, however, is atheism. The world is far too remarkable to have come from any off 'mystery of science.' Being a scientifically-minded fellow, I can note that the big bang theory disproves itself by the laws of physics. According to the theory, all of the matter in the world was compressed into a dot about the size of a period on a paper. Now, first of all, matter cannot compress like that as a fair share of it has exact shape and is not resilient, and second, if all of the matter is inside that dot, there is no outside force to set it off, and by Newton's laws a reaction could not have occurred. Plus, the big bang theory fails to address the most important issue: where did this matter come from? It simply is nonsensical.

I think what you're saying is that if all matter was compressed into a tiny dot there would be no room for atoms like hydrogen to have a definite shape. If this is what you mean, then you do not fully understand the theory, you have just had a brief overview of it. Quantum physics predicts that matter at a density that high would not keep a form but would instead become an intensely hot 'soup' of energy, which, when expanded rapidly, would take form instantly in whatever manner our universe defines, eventually forming hydrogen atoms and condensing in parts of the universe via localized gravitational collapses, forming stars.

Not to mention that the Bible has written very specific prophecy years before it's occurrence, such as the fall of Babylon.

Unfortunately, anyone can predict the downfall of a specific society because, like living creatures, all states/countries must eventually die. If the Bible predicted it in a close time frame then perhaps I am wrong, but it was inevitable for Babylon to disintegrate.

I had a classmate in a philosophy class say in a class discussion on God's existence that atheists are arrogant and selfish because, as she put it, 'It's all about me, me, me.' (Most likely meaning that atheists in general do not give thanks or credit to a higher being.) However, you appear to be the arrogant one. By saying the phrase 'far too remarkable' you have admitted that your brain cannot conceive of the possibility that the world was created through other means that we have strong evidence of, and instead assume that as human you are perfect and are able to imagine the most complex ideas possible. Think about it: probably no one has the mental capacity to understand or imagine the origin of the universe. Now with your big question 'Where did this matter come from?' you are side-stepping the origin of the universe issue temporarily to get to the origin of matter, which again, your brain probably cannot perceive the answer to. You are making the assumption that because you have no DEFINITE way to explain the origin of matter, it was probably created by a super-intelligent sentient being. 'God did it' is the ultimate cop-out answer because it can answer everything easily. Like when you used to ask 'Why can't I do blah blah blah' to your parents when you were younger and they replied with 'Because.' Obviously the logic is skewed in both situations.

I'm not saying don't believe in God but you are giving one-sided answers to the questions you ask. But if it works for you, excellent, just give a bit of merit to the beliefs of atheists because they are attempting to explain their existence in a completely objective way (and remember that not all atheists have totally ruled out the existence of a higher being, they just reject the ones that exist in humanity.)

At 6/13/03 09:29 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 6/13/03 08:40 AM, nitroxide wrote: Did you know the sign of the cross is symbol stolen from ages before christianity.

If anyone borrowed the cross, it was the Romans. Christianity uses the cross as its symbol not because they claim it to be original, but because it just happened to be the shape of the wood nailed together in Roman crucifixtions.

According to the book "Babylon Mystery Religion", the cross originated among the ancient Babylonians of Chaldea. From there, it spread to ancient China, India, Mexico, parts of Africa and other places, long before in fact centuries before Christianity was born.

Hell,the symbol of a man on the cross dint appear until 800 years after his supposed crucifixion.if anything jesus was hung,luke wrote about the two thieves:"One of the malefactors that was hanged with him."The christians at early times were called the "followers of the god that was hanged".

Would be nice if you had sources.

Although some accounts say that he was convicted and turned over to the Romans for execution, 1 Thess. 2:14- 15, an undoubtedly genuine letter of Paul, and probably the oldest book in the entire NT, plainly states that Jesus was killed by the Jews. Assuming this to be correct, Jesus could not possibly have been crucified.

He was stoned, then hung from a tree, contrary to later writings that blamed the whole thing on the Romans.
Acts 5:30 - "Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree."

Acts 10:39 - "whom they slew and hanged on a tree." Acts 13:29 - "they took him down from the tree."

1 Peter 2:24 - "who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree." Galatians 3:13: - "Christ . . . being made a curse for us . . .

Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree."

Source.

I would also gladly scan the page of the book from the book where i got the info for my previous comments.Or you can buy it..."The truth about jesus"-M.M. Mangasarian.

Nitoxide, the big thing you overlook is why Jesus was ever made the center of a religion if he was not a historical figure. Did some people just get together in Judea about 2000 years ago and say "Hey, let's start a religion and invent a savior to go along with it."

No many theories are possible:
As i said he could've been the first gay male and was killed for it the world felt sorry and based a whole religion on him to make themselves feel better...maybe that is why we are all born sinners.

Antiqkk has a theory about him being a stoner and going around stoning people and encouraged everyone to get stoned.Who truly knows literature has been altered the religion has changed over years and the true word of god is hidden.Listen im just saying that humanity feels like they need a god to guide them to make them feel safe and strong and its sad that man doesn't have it within himself to accomplish these things without some false idol.

The very fact that a religion began around him, is proof enough that he at least existed, even if you don't believe in his divinity.

Again many theories...mentioned above.

Why don't the contemporaries of his time mention him...where there no writers or artist anyone that might have been interested about writing about the son of God.

Have you heard of the forgery of the fathers of Christianity...years later the were able to forge literature that shouldn't hold up in our time...they altered thing to shape an existence of a man that no one knew where or when he was born.

And once again, the focus is placed purely on Christianity. Many so-called atheists are really just anti-Christian. How about you analyze Muhammed's historicity?

LOL..yeah i don't believe in Jesus im going to believe a prophet that had divine interventions at times of convenience,he had one that told him how to set up the government...lol.I do admit i am basically anti-Christian and Catholicism but it is the hypocrisy that really feeds my feelings towards these religions.No religion is needed i said all religion is a tool to control the masses its just that Christianity owns the most.

As ive said "Divide and Conquer"

Peace Chart 2001-2:
Major religions of the world based on total population of six billion, compiled 2001.

Christianity - 2bn (33%)
Islam - 1.3bn (22%)
Hinduism - 900m (15%)
Non-religious - 850m (14%)
Buddhism - 360m (6%)
Chinese Traditional - 225m (4%)
Primal Indiginous - 190m (3%)
Sikhism - 23m (.38%)
Yoruba - 20m (.33%)
Juche - 19m (.32%)
Spiritism - 14m (.23%)

MANY MORE SEPERATIONS OF MAN AT THE TOP OF THIS THREAD POSTED BY D2KVIRUS

At 6/14/03 03:46 AM, nitroxide wrote:
Christianity - 2bn (33%)
Islam - 1.3bn (22%)
Hinduism - 900m (15%)
Non-religious - 850m (14%)
Buddhism - 360m (6%)
Chinese Traditional - 225m (4%)
Primal Indiginous - 190m (3%)
Sikhism - 23m (.38%)
Yoruba - 20m (.33%)
Juche - 19m (.32%)
Spiritism - 14m (.23%)

I love how it's called "Chinese traditional" it might as well be called fuck if we know.

On an unrelated note why is the fact that "God made it" a bad answer just because it's easy. Sometimes Occams razor applies.

On an unrelated note why is the fact that "God made it" a bad answer just because it's easy. Sometimes Occams razor applies.

Sometimes the simpler of two explanations is the correct one, but tell me which of these two:

After the Earth cooled from its initial gravitational collapse and was nearly done creating the crust with volcanic activity, the random mixing of molecules in volcanic pools formed proteins, which later formed into dna strands, and through a combination of random gene changes and time created one-celled organisms, followed by more complex animals, eventually leading up to mammals, primates, and humans; or
God did it.

Which one appears to have more merit/evidence? If you believe the aforementioned process, involving biology, physics, and geology is absurb, tell me why some of the most educated and intelligent people on this planet have studied and supported the idea for years.

all i have to say is this..

1. i truly love you opinions anticlock, ive lost faith in love for another living being, realising the majority of my thoughts come from a hopeless infatuation, i almost care for nothing anymore, except experiences of the mind

secondly, nitoxide, you make some "sort of" valid points, but by your reckoning, and mine, that the author of the book your basing your entire argument around, couldve just made this shit up so he could make money... oh, and for the Jesus christ being a homosexual, yeah Corporate Avenger does make good music, just i wouldnt find that a too good of a point of an argument, although i like his veiws on how life should be handled a lot...

Jesus has several pieces of proof of his existence, nearly all of the highly recognised religions accept his being even if they dont follow him... and while i do not go to church, or followreligion closely at all, Jesus was flat out cool, possibly even my hero, and thats something since im almost completely monotone nowadays...

now, this is probably gonna be the middle of this post, but maybe ill just get lazy... if it werent for religion, i would have killed many people in the past month or so (ever since my spirit was shattered) since i fear nothing in life except the unknown, and the only unknown i care about is death, and with the fear that after death, the punishment / nothingness i cannot imagine for what i have done is the only thing that stops me from doing this... if i was an Athiest, id be dead, right now, and so would others..

my idea of the truest comprehendable religion is a chinese one, i cant remember what its called, but it follows the same "morals" of christianity (back before christianity existed) but instead of eternal punishment, your family would cremate you and your possesions that they thought you may need (usually very little as no matter what you went to heaven) and a special kind of money, as to bribe your punishers so you may get a smaller time of punishment for all the wrongs you have commited in your life, and personally i like this idea...

well, i was right, i got lazy and cumbi finishing this post off properly... so here for all you people who it hurts your head to think about the entirety of the universe and time, especially time, think of it as this: time is an infinite loop it never was, but always is, the universe, once reaching a certain point of no life forms / inactivity, loops to where it once started, with the exact same things happening...

that is an unfinished work, and its not quoted from anybody, i decided thats how "reality" worked back in year 8 to stop my insomnia due to thinking too much...
if you make sense of what i just said (the last little bit, you know about time loop), HOLY SHIT! i mustve thought too much in year 8

i need religion, i truly do, it is one of the only things i care about anymore, and yet i barely follow its rules at all... i am no longer a human being deserving of life...

oh, and machines can outprogram themselves with proper artificial intellegence, lets just hope shit like terminator and the matrix doesnt happen (although, now thinking of it, those two movies would be the perfect to be put together, The Matrix being the aftermaths of the destruction of Terminator... holy shit, craaaaaaaaaaazy!)

At 6/14/03 03:58 AM, Shih wrote:

At 6/14/03 03:46 AM, nitroxide wrote:
Christianity - 2bn (33%)
Islam - 1.3bn (22%)
Hinduism - 900m (15%)
Non-religious - 850m (14%)
Buddhism - 360m (6%)
Chinese Traditional - 225m (4%)
Primal Indiginous - 190m (3%)
Sikhism - 23m (.38%)
Yoruba - 20m (.33%)
Juche - 19m (.32%)
Spiritism - 14m (.23%)

I love how it's called "Chinese traditional" it might as well be called fuck if we know.

There are a few types:

Taoism
Confucianism

But the main one should be Buddhism. Feng Shui isn't a religion, just superstition, like walking under ladders, breaking mirrors, etc.

On an unrelated note why is the fact that "God made it" a bad answer just because it's easy. Sometimes Occams razor applies.

Sometimes the simplest truths are the right ones.

At 6/7/03 02:10 PM, fantom326 wrote:

At 6/7/03 01:16 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

By the way, the KKK and the Holoaust were not religious in any way, they were racially motivated; the conflict in Israel is primarily fueled by land disputes; and most hate crimes are racial in nature.

yeh, aside from the fact that they hate all catholics, and anyone else who isnt protestant. and although the conflict in isreal is primarily you're totally overlooking the fact that the state of isreal is jewish and the would be palestinian state is muslim. therefore, it is pretty much over religion as well as land, since the two are linked together in the dispute that dates back centuries ago.

The war between Israel and Palestine is not really centuries old. It started right after WWII. The Israelites come to the holy land and started bombing British buildings. They were trying to drive out the British so they could have a land of their own. Until the holocaust there was very little fighting in Palestine by Israelis.

At 6/14/03 07:54 AM, mikehrt wrote:

At 6/7/03 02:10 PM, fantom326 wrote:

At 6/7/03 01:16 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

By the way, the KKK and the Holoaust were not religious in any way, they were racially motivated; the conflict in Israel is primarily fueled by land disputes; and most hate crimes are racial in nature.

yeh, aside from the fact that they hate all catholics, and anyone else who isnt protestant. and although the conflict in isreal is primarily you're totally overlooking the fact that the state of isreal is jewish and the would be palestinian state is muslim. therefore, it is pretty much over religion as well as land, since the two are linked together in the dispute that dates back centuries ago.

The war between Israel and Palestine is not really centuries old. It started right after WWII. The Israelites come to the holy land and started bombing British buildings. They were trying to drive out the British so they could have a land of their own. Until the holocaust there was very little fighting in Palestine by Israelis.

I forgot to Mention, the nation of Israel gave power over the land to Rome and became more of a church than a Country. Many palestinians believe they are the Jews that never left Israel and that they continued to follow the prophets.

If you really care about what I have to say, personally I think religion is a bunch of hoo-ha created by people who wanted to control other people. Religion is a way for people to escape from the crushing reality that we are lifeforms on a rock in an immeasurably huge (or perhaps sizeless) universe. We created ¨god(s)¨ (excuse me if any of my punctuation seems screwy, I´m on a spanish keyboard) to have an excuse for our existence. It´s a lot easier to simply state that ¨some guy made us, and... uh.. he lives in clouds... and he has... uh... people with wings to... uh... help him.. uh... impregnate shephards?¨ than to go into deep research into how everything exists, why that happened and why we even care. Another example is how people dont give themselves enough credit for their accomplishments. People thanking god instead of realizing that they are the ones doing everything is a very good example, I think, of whatever point it was I was trying to make.
Anyway, I dont think we needed religion a long time ago, however due to the fact of how far religion has burrowed into our society I regret to admit I think religion is required to keep this planet out of chaos.

Thats a really good argument, men only createdgods because they couldn't explain life.

One of the main reason why I dont like the idea of a God is because it makes all those philosophical questions answerable.

At 6/13/03 09:29 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:
And once again, the focus is placed purely on Christianity. Many so-called atheists are really just anti-Christian. How about you analyze Muhammed's historicity?

Are you just getting annoyed because it seems you're bearing the brunt for just about every debate on this forum? If you aren't finger-wagging about Anti-Americanism, it's Anti-Christianity...

Did it ever occur to you that, by being the dominant ideologies of the world (American Imperialism and Christianity), of course people are going to know more of them, and have an opinion on them. As I stated, my Religious Education was as follows:

1. Christianity.
2. A bit of Hindu, Sikh and Muslim to be PC, and some Judaism.
3. N/A

It's being forced down the throats of people as the "correct" religion, the "right" way for Western Civilisation. Look at Europe, most of it is either Christian or Catholic, with pockets of the others within countries, although Protestant is more dominant in Eastern Europe, although that is mainly from the Communist hotbeds.

I'm sure there may be people seriously pissed off at being force fed Islam in the Middle East, but the point is that it is par for the course. If the world was 40% Cao Dai, it would be Cao Dai that is picked apart most often (although something tells me their central tome isn't innaccurate, contradictary, and responsible for more deaths than Mein Kampf, the Koran, the Torah and The Anarchist's Cookbook COMBINED each year), but when was the last time you were involved in a debate about Scientology, apart from "Stupid Hollywood idiot cultish people"-like statements, and that was all? I can safely guess the answer will be "N/A", because it isn't up for debate, as the statistics show, it's very, very minor in the scheme of things.

In fact, that chart does follow the level of debate pretty accuratly: Christianity and Islam are the main topics of debate, Hindu and Buddhism get a shout, however, it seems Non-Religious and Judaism got a bit mixed up at the press...

However, judging by the last UK Census, religion has become more of a joke than a chore.

For example, following a hyper-irritiating/sad e-mail blitz, the UK now has 30,000 registered Jedis in her borders. At the same time, I know all four members of The Church of Tom Lewis from Uni, and they're on the database, albeit unrecognised (you need 1000 to get on The List, apparently).

Gone are the days wehere people defined themselves by their belief system, replaced by the days where they believe whatever turns up in their Inbox is funny and wholly original. Fuck, put "Satanist" in future...