Do we even need religion?

[torq]

I'd like to hear peoples' opinions on this because it seems like something nearly everyone overlooks:

Do we NEED religion? We go through our early years thinking 'Which one should I pick' (if we are fortunate enough to not have it forced upon us by our parents/guardians). Do we need to pick any of them? Do any of them make perfect sense at all?

I have reason to believe that any religion that one practices that deals with supernatural occurences is false. The reason people support and defend their chosen practice so dearly is that they have delevoped what communication theorists call a 'schema' which means an idea that has been reinforced in the brain so heavily that it is accepted as fact. This means that the believer cannot fathom the idea that they are wrong about their opinion, and try to convince everyone else about it.

What separates me from other people that are strong about their beliefs (mine being atheism) is that I understand that 1. I myself have a schema about atheism, so the idea seems like a complete fact to me, and 2. I understand that there is no definite way to prove or disprove my belief, so it is as likely as many other ideas.

It is because of this that I would like to hear other peoples' opinions on the subject: Is religion necessary? Is it really something that everyone must practice on some level? Because it really bothers me when people don't consider that someone may not have a chosen religion (like when the Boy Scouts of America denied a 22 year old his Eagle scout certification because he refused to pledge to a higher power; the BSA representative said 'nature would do' and I think that's retarded). Give me feedback!

[poxpower]

Nope,we don't em. Simple as that.

[biteme2514]

I happen to be religious but I don't force my views on other people. In fact, there are some parts of my own religion that I don't necessarily agree with. I believe in most of it but I won't stop listening to Metallica or anything just because my pastor told me not to. There's nothing in the Bible anyways that says I can't do that. I only listen to the things my pastor says that I believe in. Anyways, back to what I was saying. Religions empower people and helps them do the things they never thought they could do themselves. Not only that, but most religions teach you great moral lessons and help you to become a better person. That's what I think religion is all about...

[torq]

But religion is not necessary to teach morals. I've never been to church and I treat everyone around me fairly. I practice the same commandments as you (all the ones that don't refer to a God) and I've turned out pretty well. I think the main reason people pick a religion is because they are worried about the longevity of their life, and what will happen afterwards. While I'm not saying that there is definitely nothing, I think most people are very terrified of that thought and that's why they turn to religion.

[Commander-K25]

Or maybe it's because they believe in something, torq?

It's not a matter of whether we "need" religion, because we don't really "need" anything except basic nutrition and oxygen. People hold certain beliefs and thus religion exists.

[AvocadoClock]

Not everyone needs religion. But it provides others that do need it with an outlet or hope.

In an ideal world, everyone would have the same religion (or lack of), but what works for you might not work for someone else. And that's what makes the different religions in this world so much fun to argue about. :)

[wdfcverfgtghm]

You know religion can be a healthy thing too. Religions provide an outlet for charity and a haven for people who need it most. Local synagouges work with food not bombs in my town to feed the homeless, and chuchs set up community ministries to house people who can't afford it. Although I've never been a believer in anything really, I've studied religion throughly and found that though it has extremist views on both sides it really isn't very diffrent from any societal creation. It's been abused, villified, Agrandized, worshiped and revered, but in the end it's more up to the individual follower to make it useful or harmful. Few things are a nessecsity but many things can be a way to meet your needs.

[Miles]

At 6/7/03 02:02 AM, torq wrote: Do we need to pick any of them? Do any of them make perfect sense at all?

lol i got around that proplem. i'm an athiest!

[OpIvy420]

I agree, religion really doesn't do enough good for the world to be worth the effort. The Crusades, the Hollocaust, hate crimes, the KKK, the conflicts in Israel... if there was no religion, then none of these horrible things would have existed. I don't understand how so many people can still hold a religion like Christianity.

People who join most religions miss out on a lot due to their beliefs. They can't have sex before marriage, they can't take drugs, they can't listen to good music because their priest tells them it's evil, and they lose an hour every Sunday.

Religions make the world a more violent, more angry, more uptight place. I don't think we should abolish religion, that would be a violation of free speech, but I wish other people would understand that their beliefs are destroying the world.

[Commander-K25]

At 6/7/03 10:56 AM, OpIvy420 wrote: I agree, religion really doesn't do enough good for the world to be worth the effort. The Crusades, the Hollocaust, hate crimes, the KKK, the conflicts in Israel... if there was no religion, then none of these horrible things would have existed. I don't understand how so many people can still hold a religion like Christianity.

You focus on only the negatives of religion, OpIvy and blatantly overlook all the good that religion has done. In fact, if religion had not existed, our modern society may not even exist today for it was monastic orders that carried the seeds of knowledge and preserved them in the Dark Ages.

By the way, the KKK and the Holoaust were not religious in any way, they were racially motivated; the conflict in Israel is primarily fueled by land disputes; and most hate crimes are racial in nature.

I also like how you focus mainly on Christianity, not bothering to mention any other religion. It seems to me that you're not opposed to religion, you're just a bigot who hates Christians.

[Spoony-McSpoon]

I don't think religion is need anymore, the caveman and other ancient races needed them though.

[fantom326]

At 6/7/03 10:56 AM, OpIvy420 wrote:

I don't understand how so many people can still hold a religion like Christianity.

a lot of people cling to a certain religion because their parents did. in what ive seen, many people who are weak minded and often cannot think for themselves find solace in religion because they need something to believe in, in turn because they cannot form their own beliefs.

People who join most religions miss out on a lot due to their beliefs. They can't have sex before marriage, they can't take drugs, they can't listen to good music because their priest tells them it's evil, and they lose an hour every Sunday.

lol, and im sure all those sundays make all the difference.

Religions make the world a more violent, more angry, more uptight place. I don't think we should abolish religion, that would be a violation of free speech, but I wish other people would understand that their beliefs are destroying the world.

i agree, religion starts wars, i mean just look back throughout history with the crusades, 2000 years of fighting to claim back some holy land. now we're got palestine and isreal...oh boy.

i do, however, think that religion does do at least a little good, because of charity it produces. but why should we need God to give to the poor? shouldnt we naturally want to do it? oh wait i forgot, humans are greedy assholes.

[fantom326]

At 6/7/03 01:16 PM, Commander-K25 wrote: You focus on only the negatives of religion, OpIvy and blatantly overlook all the good that religion has done. In fact, if religion had not existed, our modern society may not even exist today for it was monastic orders that carried the seeds of knowledge and preserved them in the Dark Ages.

damn it i hate to admit it but commanders right here. the monks were the knowledge keepers in medieval times.

By the way, the KKK and the Holoaust were not religious in any way, they were racially motivated; the conflict in Israel is primarily fueled by land disputes; and most hate crimes are racial in nature.

yeh, aside from the fact that they hate all catholics, and anyone else who isnt protestant. and although the conflict in isreal is primarily you're totally overlooking the fact that the state of isreal is jewish and the would be palestinian state is muslim. therefore, it is pretty much over religion as well as land, since the two are linked together in the dispute that dates back centuries ago.

I also like how you focus mainly on Christianity, not bothering to mention any other religion. It seems to me that you're not opposed to religion, you're just a bigot who hates Christians.

christians are the easiest to ridicule, because the US is mostly christian. after 9/11 it was mainly muslims who were discriminated against, and a large percentage of those bigots were christian.

[Kenney333]

I certainly dont need religion, but i think that there are some people who just cant fuction without believing in a higher power, maybe it's ignorance or trying to cope with the pointlessness of life, but many people just need the direction because they cant think of a purpose for themselves

[AntiClock]

My belief is that the creation of the universe is due to an undefined concept that cannot be understood by humans. Creation and destruction, life and death, etc are concepts that exist in this universe. In this universe, there are set rules such as matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, everything must come from something before it, something cannot come from nothing, etc. No matter how deep you think, you can never figure out how something came from nothing. The universe is made from rules, but because we are bound by these rules ourselves, we therefore cannot know how we were created no matter how smart we are. It's similar to the movie The Matrix, how it is based on rules, but if the people in there free their mind, they will see the bigger picture and realize the truth. If you look in a broader sense and not restrict yourself to thinking on how the universe was created, you will realize that the universe was not created, but that the universe came into existence not by creation, but by something that is like an extention of creation, or a term that is undefined / cannot exist in this universe. This concept is not just "creation of something from nothing", because both something and nothing are both also concepts that are restricted in this universe.

It's similar to a programmer designing a program that will only understand the letters A, B, C. The program will never understand what the letter D is because that letter is out of its domain. The letter D exists in our universe, but it does not exist in the domain of the program that the programmer created because the program is a subdomain of the universe. And inside the program, it can only create things that are simpler than itself, and at most create something that is equivalent in terms of its domain.

The analogy is that we exist as a limited domain created by god. "Created by god" is an approximation to what actually happened, because creation is a concept that was put into this universe for us to understand. Remember that in this universe, there are rules. Rules such as "something is either this or it is not this". "The keyboard is either black or it is not black". "There is either nothing, or there must be something". All these concepts are restricted in the domain of this universe. So the universe was created (not really created in what we define creation as, but creation is the word which most closely approximates the concept). And you must realize that every word I used here just gives a general overview of what actually happened, because everything we can understand are concepts that are part of this universe. Also, you must realize that "undefined" is a concept in itself, and when I say "undefined concept", it is just an approximation, because defined and undefined are both concepts in this universe..... and it goes on and you realize that basically, it's something we cannot understand. We will never know the truth (but then again, truth is a concept of this universe that may just be something limited in this universe but may exist in a broader sense in the outer universe that created us). And you also have to realize that time itself is something that may only be restricted in this universe. God is not restricted by the concept of time and sees everything, because God is out of the domain of this universe. If you think about it, how could time have been created? I would say that time, etc, the composition of the universe, are not created, but are created in the sense that it approximates an undefined / incomprehensible concept. After all, beginning and end are concepts of this universe, and creation is a concept that is bound by time (creation implies that it is the beginning of something). So in summary, every concept we can think of in this universe is probably insufficient to understand the actual process of what happened, because what happened cannot be described or thought of in the domain of this universe. Basically, if you can think of something in this universe, then the outer universe must be greater than that. Even the smartest human will never figure out the truth, because we are all part of the universe, and everything we can come up with is part of this universe. Our thoughts are based on mathematics, logic, etc, which are all things that exist in this universe. Mathematics, logic, etc are just programs that are part of the universe when it was so-called "created", and could be meaningless in the outer-universe.

It's like we build a program whose purpose is to build other programs. The program that builds other programs can never make the other programs better than itself. If we build a program that only understands A, B, C, that program can at most build a child program based on A, B, C also because everything else (D, E, F, G) does not exist / is undefined in the first program. This is because in our universe, the rule of "something cannot come from nothing" is passed on to the domain of the first program, and when the first program creates the second program, it must also follow the rules of what we passed on to it. And so, the second program will be bound by all the rules that exist in our universe, plus the boundaries / further limitations that we programmed in the first program.

This is all an analogy... you must then think deeper and realize that the concept of something having to be a subdomain (a derivative) of its creator is also a rule that is part on this universe, and it could be something completely different in the outer universe (i.e. if something simple can create things that are more complex than itself, that would defy a rule in this universe. If something can be black and not black at the same time, that would be a contradiction to the rules of logic. If something can be created by nothing, that is also something that is not possible in this universe). So basically, the outer-universe is not limited by our rules, and the concept of "creation of the universe" does not adequately describe what actually happened.

sorry if i rambled on, noone is probably gonna read this because its my longest post ever. i actually had to cut it because of the word limit, i didnt even know there was one, but it justifies my opinion on God and creation.

[ZenGaijin]

I don't know about you but i say yes because when people need something to turn too when else seems hopeless. People mainly choose religion because they feel safe knowing that whatever happens there always someone looking out for them and don't we all want that sometimes. I mean when I'm scared shitless I like to feel protected when you were littler you knew your parents were always gonna be there to protect you but as you got older and stronger faster than your parents you feel there nobody looking out for you and protecting you. Religions not a bad thing its just the way all these people have controted religion until it seems like there just running around screamin "JOIN US OR DIE". God is basically a protecter.

[OpIvy420]

At 6/7/03 01:16 PM, Commander-K25 wrote: By the way, the KKK and the Holoaust were not religious in any way

The Holocaust wasn't religiously motivated? The systematic genocide of millions of people because they happened to be Jewish wasn't religiously motivated?

[Slizor]

In fact, if religion had not existed, our modern society may not even exist today for it was monastic orders that carried the seeds of knowledge and preserved them in the Dark Ages.

The Dark Ages....meh, I'll counter this point when I'm not soo drunk.

I also like how you focus mainly on Christianity, not bothering to mention any other religion. It seems to me that you're not opposed to religion, you're just a bigot who hates Christians.

Or it could be that since Western culture is so focused on Christianity that that is all they know, and thus all they can criticize about religion. Do you not feel that "religion" has become synomnyous with christianity?

ps: I don't care if I spelt things wrong

pps: Smiling when your friends are watching!

[poxpower]

How can some of you justify this with such long posts? Simple:no.
We are not required to believe what others believe, therefore, we do not need religions. Period.

[mrpopenfresh]

Religion dosen't have an impact in the north american society. But if you travel abroad to places like Israel, re;igion is the base of everything. Religion justifies their actions, it dictates what they do. Here, money, greed or a number of sins justyfies our actions.

The way I see it, religion will be quasi inexistant at the end of this century. Their has already be a big change in the importance of religion in peoples lives in the last 100 years. The church has lost most of its power and influence. Just think back in the colonial days where every family had to have one of their sons become a priest and were the church was the supreme ruler. I know im going pretty far back, but at this rate, religion will be obsolete.

When's the last time you went to church?

[RazorBladez]

not to offend religious types, but i can't think of any religion that supports the theory of evolution, which is a clear fact. to use christianity as an example, god creates man, but of course it is widely awknowledged that man evolved from ape, with even some christians following this theory. that's not to say those people renounce their religion when they agree. they don't have to. religion these days isn't as much about faith as it used to be, more about having something to rely on when things are down for them. religion has been the cause of wars and terrorism in one way or the other, and maybe the world might be a better place, but it's impossible to tell.

[Commander-K25]

At 6/7/03 05:36 PM, OpIvy420 wrote: The Holocaust wasn't religiously motivated? The systematic genocide of millions of people because they happened to be Jewish wasn't religiously motivated?

Judaism is a race as well as a religion. I know of Jewish people that don't really believe in the Jewish religion.

Until science can prove that there is no superior being, creator, God or whatever, people will continue to believe in their religion.

Religion, did start countless wars and is used by individuals to justify their hatred but there are some people who do believe in religion and make the world a better place by following the 10 commandements or the 5 pillars of faith or whatever.

Do I need religion? No
Do other people need religion? It's their business, not ours.

[mysecondstar]

the purpose of religion is to give man a purpose and hope for something better. Marx said it best: religion is the opiate of the masses. it lets people forget about all their troubles and gives them hope for the future. this applied very well to the beginning of the industrial revolution, but today most people live so comfortably that they become complacent. there is a decline in religion because people don't need the same kind of hope they needed 200 years ago. why hope for something better if you're happy now?

[torq]

I think a lot of people are reading the subject and instantly answering it. This isn't really a yes or no question here; what I'm asking is, why do young people LOOK for a religion that works for them? Why don't many of them say "I don't even need a religion"? There is something in the brain of people that have been aware of religion their entire lives that doesn't allow them to even imagine this idea, it seems.

AntiClock: Awesome post, that has been my argument for several years. MAYBE we don't know our origin because we can't understand it? I mean, you can't teach a gerbil to sit. And you can't teach a dog to do Calculus. Most likely humans don't have the brain capacity to understand ideas that complex. And there are probably much bigger things we cannot imagine also. If one knows evolution fairly well it is obvious that humans are probably not the most intelligent creature that can possibly exist.

DarkBlueFlame: How can you just say 'Gee, it would be nice to feel protected, so I'll believe in a God that protects me'? That's like lying to yourself and saying you have a million dollars when you merely wish you had a million dollars: it's OBVIOUSLY FAKE BECAUSE YOU MADE IT UP.
Seems like many religious people are the same way. When I explain that I believe in nothingness after death when I unfortunately reveal in public that I am an atheist, I USUALLY get the response "Why would you want to believe in something that depressing?" Umm... well, if I BELIEVE in it, then I would pretty much be lying to myself if I said that I believed something else.

[AntiClock]

At 6/7/03 05:49 PM, poxpower wrote: How can some of you justify this with such long posts? Simple:no.
We are not required to believe what others believe, therefore, we do not need religions. Period.

It's not an easy explanation. What I said is an inspiration, and approximation, because the process cannot be defined, cannot be understood, and most importantly cannot be thought of. The universe itself is a concept bound by our universe, and everything here is bound by rules and the domain of the universe. You have to give up everything to try to get a glimpse of the unthinkable, the irrational that does not make sense, but it does sort of make sense because it requires you to attempt to free your mind from using concepts bound by this universe to define the unexplainable (God, the universe, time, etc).

It's a similar philosophy to what the movie The Matrix kind of touches upon. The people in The Matrix refuse to stop believing that the world they live in is a false world, they strongly believe what they can think of, what they can see, feel, touch, smell, sense is reality. But those who free their mind will see a completely different picture, something that cannot be explained.

You must realize that thinking is a primitive process that is so inferior to what the outer universe is made up of, because thinking is bound by our universe, so you must not think, not use logic, nor use anything of this universe to explain the outer universe. That's why it's all an undefined concept. If you can think of something, the outer universe is not that. That's the amazing part of it. Just like a program we made inside a computer, nothing it can ever do will figure us out because anything the program can possibly be is what we allowed it to, we programmed what it can do and set its limitations. To think is to believe that your senses, logic, etc, that the universe here will lead to an ultimate answer when there are no such answers because both a question and an answer are concepts that exist in this universe but could be of no importance in the outer-universe.

Sure, there is an extent that we can figure out our universe, but the point where we cannot explain any further due to mystery, contradictions of logic, where everything seems to break down and make no sense because you tried to think too deeply, the inspiration that I posted above is the way to proceed. If you think that it is possible to discover everything, you are wrong, because thinking has limitations set by this universe. There's just no point trying to figure out the ultimate explanation.... we have to accept it as undefined.

My 50 cents.

[DuMa-RyoHahn]

I have my religion but I really could care less about it. I mean religion is here for a reason, what that reason is I don't know. I mean come on people choose not to believe in something and nothing bad happenes to them. religion tells us that if we don't follow their rules that when we die we will go to a place where our soul will be toutrued till the end of time. so you are telling me I can't do anything outside of a book cause then I will go to hell? I say it is somewhat useless but it is good to keep some faith at times.

[fantom326]

damn it, anticlock, stop it, youre making my head hurt.

At 6/8/03 08:39 AM, AntiClock wrote:

It's not an easy explanation. What I said is an inspiration, and approximation, because the process cannot be defined, cannot be understood, and most importantly cannot be thought of. :

Well, if that is the case, then why even bother? You said so yourself that we human beings are limited so there is no point in even trying to "free ones mind" in order to understand anything beyond the universe. Looks like you contradicted yourself there.

The universe itself is a concept bound by our universe, and everything here is bound by rules and the domain of the universe. You have to give up everything to try to get a glimpse of the unthinkable, the irrational that does not make sense, but it does sort of make sense because it requires you to attempt to free your mind from using concepts bound by this universe to define the unexplainable (God, the universe, time, etc). :

You do not need to give up reason to define the universe or the space/time continuum. God yes, because frankly there is no proof to my knowledge that God exists. You are mixing two different things here: science and religion. One can be explained, one cannot.

It's a similar philosophy to what the movie The Matrix kind of touches upon. The people in The Matrix refuse to stop believing that the world they live in is a false world, they strongly believe what they can think of, what they can see, feel, touch, smell, sense is reality. But those who free their mind will see a completely different picture, something that cannot be explained. :

But you neglect how one "frees" their mind. Frees their mind from what? The simple "truth" is, our senses define perceptions of reality although reality is absolute. <----- Very good subject to discuss. Probably one of the very few absolutes there are. This can only be reasonably determined by our sense data and ability to reason. There is no better way to determine what is real or not.

You must realize that thinking is a primitive process that is so inferior to what the outer universe is made up of, because thinking is bound by our universe, so you must not think, not use logic, nor use anything of this universe to explain the outer universe. That's why it's all an undefined concept. If you can think of something, the outer universe is not that. That's the amazing part of it. Just like a program we made inside a computer, nothing it can ever do will figure us out because anything the program can possibly be is what we allowed it to, we programmed what it can do and set its limitations. To think is to believe that your senses, logic, etc, that the universe here will lead to an ultimate answer when there are no such answers because both a question and an answer are concepts that exist in this universe but could be of no importance in the outer-universe. :

What? What is the ultimate answer? Why we are here? You can leave such silly questions to the fun of philosophy. But good luck trying to find your answer there too. Besides, if the "outer-universe" (as you call it) exists, and if one cannot even begin to understsand what it is, it seems rather pointless to discuss it anyway.

Sure, there is an extent that we can figure out our universe, but the point where we cannot explain any further due to mystery, contradictions of logic, where everything seems to break down and make no sense because you tried to think too deeply, the inspiration that I posted above is the way to proceed. If you think that it is possible to discover everything, you are wrong, because thinking has limitations set by this universe. There's just no point trying to figure out the ultimate explanation.... we have to accept it as undefined. :

Surely not. Anything that is observable in this universe can be explained: by observation from our senses and our ability to reason.

[stafffighter]

If you destroyed every deviding belief structure in the world within a week people would find other meaningless ways to group together and seek meaning, its in our nature.