Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

At 6/21/07 08:19 PM, Nitroglys wrote: sure you lose the ability to achieve

I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean, but it sure does not sound good to me.

but you dont lose choice in your career you just get paid the same as everyone else.

Oh really? Who is going to clean the sewers or work in the landfill? How about flipping burgers at McGovernment's? Are YOU going to be the one to do these by choice? I know when I fill out my application for my weekly government handout that I will be putting down garage band guitarist!

Thats the problem with people they are so worried about getting more money than people they can't just work to work.

Haha. That's not the problem, it's why our species is still alive.

They are just so blinded by the capitalist way of life.

Blinded by the benefits, right?

And whos to say that your personal works of art or inventions aren't taken by the next greedier man who for his own persoanal ambition takes it and sells it.

http://www.copyright.gov/

THAT is whats wrong with the capitalistic soceity. Personal ambition is stepping on the guy below you to make that extra dollar. not helping him up when hes down like in communism. The economic market is the problem. Maybe if we built skyscrapers for the better of humanity we would all be able to stay in one.

Who would waste their time building skyscrapers for the better(ment) of humanity when we could all be garage band ROCKSTARS, leaving your house once a week to walk down to the welfare office? You only live so long afterall, and if everyone's time is worth the same amount of money no matter what they are doing then hell why not?

Maybe there would be no one in front of the skyscraper begging for money. maybe if someone got hurt while building the skyscraper they wouldn't have to worry about some huge hospital bill.

Yep. Life sucks when you suck. All the more incentive to stop sucking.

Maybe the janitor that works in the skyscraper would be able to provide for his family just as much as the CEO of the company skyscraper.

If that were true then the skyscraper would never have existed in the first place and the janitor would have no job at all. Then again, I guess this is what you pinkos really want afterall: a free ride and someone else to foot the bill.

Its these selfless qualites that make communism so great. maybe thats why i would be so quick for a change from homelessness, a change from giant companies controlling everything we buy and stepping on the little guy, a change for the better.

You are really fortunate that most of the world is full of people like me that care too much to let you fools actually try this. I could just see this silly idealism flowing out of you with every tear after your entire family starves to death and all the shitty music you enjoy is just telling you to kill yourself anyway. It may not happen in a year, or five, or ten. Hell, your little dream society might actually last a few decades. But you can only live on borrowed wealth for so long, and after you have cashed the last check that all the greedy fortune-seeking CEOs wrote for you before they went extinct you might finally understand the evil that you so passionately support.

Firstly, communism isn't just a an economic model, it's a government idea. In communism there is no you or me or I there is only "us." There is no room for the individual in a Marxist society. You are nothing more than a fraction in communism. Individuality is irrelevant in communism and all social and economic freedoms are forfeit to the will of the godlike government. If this were every implimented, you'd lose your unalienable rights endowed by our Creator(To quote Jefferson).

Over the course of millions of years of evolution, living being(Even sentient ones) have in their DNA a few primal urges to ensure survival, these include gluttony, self-perservation, and multiplying. Communism ignores the first two.

Another flaw of communism is its disbelief in genetics. Whether you realize it or not, there is no way to reconcile the two because communism teaches that environmental exposure is everything and that everyone has the same exact potential. With the right training, you and I can be as smart as Stephen Hawkings, or at least that is what real communism dictates. Infact, genetics were banned by the USSR and currently by many communist leaning nations as a "bourgesis pseudoscience."

At 6/21/07 10:04 PM, JakeHero wrote: genetics were banned by the USSR and currently by many communist leaning nations as a "bourgesis pseudoscience."

There are no countries with the communism I am talking about.

At 6/21/07 10:08 PM, CrazyCory564 wrote: There are no countries with the communism I am talking about.

I believe that's why I said "Communist leaning nations."

But before this argument gets into semantics let's talk about something else related to the thread.

It's pretty ironic that it is capitalism selling all of the che buttons.

At 6/21/07 09:45 PM, TheloniousMONK wrote:

At 6/21/07 08:19 PM, Nitroglys wrote: sure you lose the ability to achieve

I have no idea what this is even supposed to mean, but it sure does not sound good to me.

Hhhhmmm i wonder who made the point about people not being able to ACHIEVE in society.

but you dont lose choice in your career you just get paid the same as everyone else.

Oh really? Who is going to clean the sewers or work in the landfill? How about flipping burgers at McGovernment's? Are YOU going to be the one to do these by choice? I know when I fill out my application for my weekly government handout that I will be putting down garage band guitarist!

Hell i would work anywhere as long as i could bring home enough to feed the family. the only reason we see these jobs as lesser is beacuse of their pay. So your saying that without a capitalistic soceity their will be nothing to tell people to quit there dreams and settle with the meanial. Im sry to dissapoint but im sure nothing un-productive would be enforced. remeber there will always be people looking for a job. and im sure they will be happy, as i said before, as long as they can provide for their family.

Thats the problem with people they are so worried about getting more money than people they can't just work to work.

Haha. That's not the problem, it's why our species is still alive.

Maybe beacuse its the only thing we've ever known. think about all we have ever had is a classed society with people accelling and people down in the gutter. Maybe a change would be good. As i said the strive for money and that is the problem. Beacuse in the strive for money people forget about everyone else.

They are just so blinded by the capitalist way of life.

Blinded by the benefits, right?

Ya im sure all the people in ghettos are blinded by the benifits. they are so happy to be where they are and only getting a 900 dollars a month, getting shot down for a good job beacuse they couldnt afford to go to college. all this could change they could have a decent house, go to school for free, and not be part of a horrible circle of hood life.

And whos to say that your personal works of art or inventions aren't taken by the next greedier man who for his own persoanal ambition takes it and sells it.

http://www.copyright.gov/

so, although it is possible, you think that a person with an invention will start production, make a store to sell his idea, and grow with need. when just as easily some huge corporation can make a knock-off of it and sell it in their wal-mart and if it comes to a court case probably get it won.

THAT is whats wrong with the capitalistic soceity. Personal ambition is stepping on the guy below you to make that extra dollar. not helping him up when hes down like in communism. The economic market is the problem. Maybe if we built skyscrapers for the better of humanity we would all be able to stay in one.

Who would waste their time building skyscrapers for the better(ment) of humanity when we could all be garage band ROCKSTARS, leaving your house once a week to walk down to the welfare office? You only live so long afterall, and if everyone's time is worth the same amount of money no matter what they are doing then hell why not?

Not everyone is gonna be a rockstar. and you'll need to have some type of job. all of this can be sorted out by the people handing out the money. and to my last recolection i dont recall recieving a paycheck for being a rockstar. sounds like you would just have to persuade the common person to spend their money on your album. As i said before there will always be people looking for a job and a job to fit the persons quailfactions.

Maybe there would be no one in front of the skyscraper begging for money. maybe if someone got hurt while building the skyscraper they wouldn't have to worry about some huge hospital bill.

Yep. Life sucks when you suck. All the more incentive to stop sucking.

Yup. tell that to the black guy who couldnt get a job beacuse he is black. he'll just have to stop being black. or the bum who couldnt afford an education. come on god damnit get on your feet you peice of shit.

Maybe the janitor that works in the skyscraper would be able to provide for his family just as much as the CEO of the company skyscraper.

If that were true then the skyscraper would never have existed in the first place and the janitor would have no job at all. Then again, I guess this is what you pinkos really want afterall: a free ride and someone else to foot the bill.

I dont know how having a job is a free ride. as long as there is a need for a skyscraper there will be someone to build it, some one to run it, and someone to clean it. People need to still buy stuff from companies and those companies need skyscrapers.

Its these selfless qualites that make communism so great. maybe thats why i would be so quick for a change from homelessness, a change from giant companies controlling everything we buy and stepping on the little guy, a change for the better.

You are really fortunate that most of the world is full of people like me that care too much to let you fools actually try this. I could just see this silly idealism flowing out of you with every tear after your entire family starves to death and all the shitty music you enjoy is just telling you to kill yourself anyway. It may not happen in a year, or five, or ten. Hell, your little dream society might actually last a few decades. But you can only live on borrowed wealth for so long, and after you have cashed the last check that all the greedy fortune-seeking CEOs wrote for you before they went extinct you might finally understand the evil that you so passionately support.

Yes lets look back at all the good capitalism has brought us. first you see the skyscrapers then you see the ghettos around it. with every person that succedds there are 5 who dont. 5 who get to scrap by flipping burgers providing for their 4 children. I think you just can't get over the fact that everyone can be provided for in communism. No one has to go hungry. as long as the gears turn money can be made and dinners can be served. too bad for those kids in the ghetto with nothing in their stomachs.

O and appluase on the creative? little oppinon on me and my pesonal life. you really missed the head of the nail and hit your own thumb.

Ya im sure all the people in ghettos are blinded by the benifits. they are so happy to be where they are and only getting a 900 dollars a month,

better than everybody $16 dollars a month.

At 6/21/07 11:29 PM, scorchin-hot wrote:

Ya im sure all the people in ghettos are blinded by the benifits. they are so happy to be where they are and only getting a 900 dollars a month,

better than everybody $16 dollars a month.

what are you talking about? if a govt has enough money to put 50 bill every couple of months to a pointless war they can afford to properly pay the working man. especially if they own industries. please take lack of knowlege else where.

Great another Communism thread. Why do people post this stuff? All we do is say the same stuff of how much communism sucks just like we did in the last communism thread.

At 6/21/07 11:14 PM, Nitroglys wrote: Hhhhmmm i wonder who made the point about people not being able to ACHIEVE in society.

And isn't productive achievement one of the most noble goals in life? That does not include standing in line at the welfare office.

Hell i would work anywhere as long as i could bring home enough to feed the family. the only reason we see these jobs as lesser is beacuse of their pay.

Haha. Crawling through sewers sure sounds like a great job to me!

So your saying that without a capitalistic soceity their will be nothing to tell people to quit there dreams and settle with the meanial.

Here you say that in Communist Wonderland people are not satisfied with menial jobs, and...

Im sry to dissapoint but im sure nothing un-productive would be enforced. remeber there will always be people looking for a job. and im sure they will be happy, as i said before, as long as they can provide for their family.

Here you say that in Communist Wonderland people will be happy with whatever job they have. So which is it? Either way you're wrong.

Maybe beacuse its the only thing we've ever known. think about all we have ever had is a classed society with people accelling and people down in the gutter. Maybe a change would be good. As i said the strive for money and that is the problem. Beacuse in the strive for money people forget about everyone else.

I really wish that you would read this, but I am sure you will not, so I will just go ahead and state this real bluntly. The problem is not the strive for money, because money is merely a tool for placing value on goods and services made by the virtuous who produce them. The true problem is the fools like you that disrupt this system by taking what you have not earned. The only ones forgotten in the strive for money are people like you that fail to recognize what it really is.

Ya im sure all the people in ghettos are blinded by the benifits. they are so happy to be where they are and only getting a 900 dollars a month, getting shot down for a good job beacuse they couldnt afford to go to college. all this could change they could have a decent house, go to school for free, and not be part of a horrible circle of hood life.

To say that a handout from the government is going to fix "hood life" is foolish. In a free capitalist society the opportunities for advancement exist. However, it takes courage and perseverance to seek this path. Anyone that wants to can make it, and this has never been more true than today.

so, although it is possible, you think that a person with an invention will start production, make a store to sell his idea, and grow with need. when just as easily some huge corporation can make a knock-off of it and sell it in their wal-mart and if it comes to a court case probably get it won.

The point is that the patent owner can do whatever they want with their property, whether they sell it to someone else to market, choose to market it themselves, keep it to themselves, or wipe their ass with it. As someone who is studying to become a research physicist, I can tell you that I enjoy science and I enjoy research, but only so long as the product of my mind--my own thoughts--are recognized as mine and I have full authority over them.

Not everyone is gonna be a rockstar. and you'll need to have some type of job. all of this can be sorted out by the people handing out the money. and to my last recolection i dont recall recieving a paycheck for being a rockstar. sounds like you would just have to persuade the common person to spend their money on your album. As i said before there will always be people looking for a job and a job to fit the persons quailfactions.

But the government owns the record label and they have to give everyone a fair shake. So either anyone can be a rockstar by profession or no one can. And after a long day of flipping burgers at McGovernment's I doubt many people will feel like pursuing avant-garde arts.

Yup. tell that to the black guy who couldnt get a job beacuse he is black. he'll just have to stop being black. or the bum who couldnt afford an education. come on god damnit get on your feet you peice of shit.

This is so trite and mostly irrelevant. In a free society anyone can make it if they want to. Generalizations like this are just silly.

I dont know how having a job is a free ride. as long as there is a need for a skyscraper there will be someone to build it, some one to run it, and someone to clean it. People need to still buy stuff from companies and those companies need skyscrapers.

This is a free market principle. In Communism the collective or government decides what is needed and not the market. Get your shit straight.

Yes lets look back at all the good capitalism has brought us. first you see the skyscrapers then you see the ghettos around it. with every person that succedds there are 5 who dont. 5 who get to scrap by flipping burgers providing for their 4 children.

More generalizations. The fact is that these people who you claim do not succeed and live in "ghettos" have a higher standard of living than most of the rest of the world. This is because in capitalism everyone that participates in the market benefits themselves and everyone else participating in the market.

I think you just can't get over the fact that everyone can be provided for in communism. No one has to go hungry. as long as the gears turn money can be made and dinners can be served. too bad for those kids in the ghetto with nothing in their stomachs.

The problem is that in Communism the gears do not turn because all incentive is eliminated and individualism is thwarted. Why should I go to pursue my study of physics if I do not even own my own thoughts? If everything I produce is just stolen from me, then what is the point in producing it at all when I can do something like being a super cool rockstar in my awesome garage band and still make as much money! Yeah!

O and appluase on the creative?

Thanks! I am glad you can appreciate it. Good thing this is a capitalist society, and I am not too tired of my hard eight hour shift of flipping burgers at McGovernment's to make fun of you and your stupid ideas.

At 6/21/07 11:42 PM, slackerzac wrote: Great another Communism thread. Why do people post this stuff? All we do is say the same stuff of how much communism sucks just like we did in the last communism thread.

My hope is that by putting one of these idiots in his place that we can stop many threads in the future before they even start.

Yes lets look back at all the good capitalism has brought us. first you see the skyscrapers then you see the ghettos around it. with every person that succedds there are 5 who dont. 5 who get to scrap by flipping burgers providing for their 4 children.

Do not use the current state of American Capitalism as your basis for an argument against Laissez-faire Capitalism, or True Blue Capitalism, and maybe we wont use the current failing nations as examples for your ideology.

If everything is subject and consigned to the collective, and you are no longer securing your own self interest, you are no longer securing your mental well-being as result of said individuality.

You'd only be pursuing "hobbies", with no real end or ambition.

Stop digging your own half-witted graves and listen to the Monk.

Communism by definition is Socialism
You can use the two words interchangeably

What retards don't realise is that when you blurt out the words 'oh youre a fucking commie'
theyre actually complimenting you.

The Government has led us to believe that communism is inherently evil. I'm glad a lot of people here aren't ignorant enough to just go blasting without reading a piece on communism.
And its funny because we've never heard a justification, or ever heard an authoritative voice describe the difference between communism and stalinism which is effectively what Joseph Stalin formulated after realising he could manipulate Karl Marx's puff piece of idealism. This is what the old Russia and China of today is and was. Stalinism.

I personally think the government doesn't want people to rise to realise the virtues found in communism because it'd break down huge corporations that make obscene profits which is what most politicians are cockpieces for.. sorry i meant mouth pieces.

In saying that I also believe that socialism is an ideal that will never be realised because we as humans are inherently greedy and selfish. That's why capitalism works, because it plays on the idea of our insatiable wants versus needs. Simple economics.

At 6/22/07 05:07 AM, tony4moroney wrote: stuff

Have you even read the MONK's posts? I would suggest actually reading through threads before you post your opinion.

i love the idea america is courupt

its just not right what this guy is sayin the guy he quoted had to be right

At 6/22/07 12:13 PM, freddorfman wrote: its just not right what this guy is sayin the guy he quoted had to be right

What the fuck are you babbling about?

At 6/21/07 10:21 PM, scorchin-hot wrote: It's pretty ironic that it is capitalism selling all of the che buttons.

That's because after the end of the Cold War communism became a capitalist tool.

Communism is inherently flawed
Your motivation to succeed is limited because everything is distributed equally and you have nothing to claim ownership of.

It is flawed because it is an unrealistic ideal, almost the utopia of equality that we aspire to but will never gain because selfishness, greediness and wants for materialistic goods is inherit in men. this is what motivates us. Its a primitive instinct and its there for a reason.
What is the purpose of living otherwise? If we have no motivation or desire to achieve, nothing to aspire to as an individual what would motivate you to create the next amazing product?
That's why Capitalism works.

I also stated Communism and Socialism are interchangeable. I stand by my statement but I'd like to clarify, the critical difference is socialism is the redistribution of wealth, communism is the understanding that all wealth should be shared by the community. Its different, but by shades of grey. Communism I much doubt would work in that manner hence the argument of interchangeability.

But what people also fail to understand is that by virtue, Capitalism is evil. Capitalism = selfishness. Although I've never particularly been a fan of branding something as bad/ good. So I'd like to simplify it as this: by virtue capitalism is bad, economically it is good.

http://www.working-minds.com/money.htm
Monk posted this link

Money is not the root of all evil. I concur.
However The love of money has lead to warfare, bloodshed, murders, the rise of corporate monopolies and grossly disproportionate shares of wealth.

"To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will."

But to scam people of it, to love it so passionately as to murder others or deceive gleefully for it is evil. As I have said, money is not evil. It is the love of money that is evil and capitalism breeds this mentality.

Observing the obscene amount of money the rich and elite possess in comparison to the middle-class which can barely afford health-care, observing the millions of starving in Africa whilst their politicians have an orgy with all our donations and whilst the World Bank has sex with millions of dollars theyre meant to be redistributing you could argue that Capitalism has failed ethically. Communism has also failed, leading to Stalinism, The Soviet Union, N.Korea and China and fascist oppressive regimes.

I'm pro-moderation. Capitalism, but recognising you should actually make a half-arsed effort to contribute back to the community you gained from if youve accumulated an absurd amount of wealth. Rockwell, Gates, Buffett and many billionaires do this. Murdoch can suck horsedick.

"The problem is that in Communism the gears do not turn because all incentive is eliminated and individualism is thwarted. Why should I go to pursue my study of physics if I do not even own my own thoughts? If everything I produce is just stolen from me, then what is the point in producing it at all when I can do something like being a super cool rockstar in my awesome garage band and still make as much money! Yeah!"

I agree with this comment entirely. Motivation to succeed is based on two things. Sex and Power. Its primitive. The world is only two colors; pink and green. To think otherwise is idealistic to say the least.

I hope I've clarified my last post, I'm still reading on the subject myself but I'm always preoccupied with procrastinating. From observing the commentary I'd align myself with kradpie and say Monk is the most knowledgable critic on this. However I'd question his neutrality, or rather he has yet to explore the shortcomings of Capitalism.

At 6/21/07 11:35 PM, Nitroglys wrote:

At 6/21/07 11:29 PM, scorchin-hot wrote:

Ya im sure all the people in ghettos are blinded by the benifits. they are so happy to be where they are and only getting a 900 dollars a month,

better than everybody $16 dollars a month.

what are you talking about? if a govt has enough money to put 50 bill every couple of months to a pointless war they can afford to properly pay the working man. especially if they own industries. please take lack of knowlege else where.

The thing is the government is in trilions of dollars in debt and I was actually reffering to cuba. Don't say I have a lack of knowledge when you decide to ignore history. What makes you think that a government that is already corrupt in democracy wouldn't take advantage of communism?

democratie = Democratic socialism > communism

cuz we can elected a socialist governement. Not a communist 1.

At 6/22/07 12:43 AM, TheloniousMONK wrote:

Your missing what im trying to debate. in theory communism could work. I know very well that we will never see it happen due to the human element of greed, but on paper communism would take care of plenty of problems. education, healthcare, poverty all of them can be dealt with using communism. Yes you lose the ability to get a higher pay than the next guy and the incredibly hard working people that strive for that extra dollar would be gone, but at what benifit. you see the good side of capitalism. people trying and achieving in soceity and that feels great to the people that can do it. but what about the people that can't the people stuck working a 9-5 job going no where and they still can't provide entirely for their family. the people who can't get a job beacuse its so competitive. the people who get steped on and pushed down into the gutter. These are the people we need to think of. it is selfish not to. it is selfish to say "come on you bum, get a damn job." maybe they can, but maybe the can't. maybe they are so far down the road of mal-education and in that vicious circle of drug child and spouse abuse that plauges the lower class. communism can prevent this from happening. sending kids to school on the gov't's dime. Dont try and say i'm wanting a free ride beacuse its not a lazy thing its a poor thing. maybe if we gave people some hope a gangbanger wouldnt have to steal to provide for his family. sure they have a better standard of living then people in ethiopia, but the standard of living is so low there anyway you cant possibly compare it to that. the fact is that there are people are starving in our country. there will always be people needing a job, and jobs to fit the peoples qualifactations. and sure money isnt the problem with soceity. its what people will do for it. sure it might help drive an industry, but people will kill for it. dont you see that is a problem. im not saying we would give money to the poor, just give them oppurtunity. something their not used to. you can't say that people don't get left behind in this "land of oppurtunity" it happens everyday. You think there aren't people who can't afford education for their kid. That alone can put a kid so far behind the 8-ball he can't get out. if you want a decent job anymore you need a college education. Denying that is wrong to do to any child. they don't diserive that. And why should you not invent something if you can't profit off of it. if it helps the common man you shouldn't be so selfish. You would have enough to provide why should you want anymore. and if you wanted to be a rockstar i guess you would have to be passionate enough to do it alongside your job. maybe if you got successful enough the gov't could pay for your tour. all these minute details could be hammered out. And im sry that i got the gov't ownership of industry wrong. but it doesnt change the fact that their will be a market for "stuff" we need to spend our money on. and as long as their is a market for it there will need to be a place of business for it, thus a need for a skyscraper. just beacuse there is no inscentive to achieve doesnt mean no one would work. it would slow down the people who would make less but i bet it would inspire thouse who made more. your just too selfish. i would work just as hard to help push soceity forward. i bet scientist dont even care as long as they have their name on it. which im sure they would it wouldnt say "so-and-so nation discovered". Communism can work. if humans wouldnt be so slefish. but too bad. it was a good thought.

At 6/22/07 03:40 PM, scorchin-hot wrote:

At 6/21/07 11:35 PM, Nitroglys wrote:

At 6/21/07 11:29 PM, scorchin-hot wrote:

Ya im sure all the people in ghettos are blinded by the benifits. they are so happy to be where they are and only getting a 900 dollars a month,

better than everybody $16 dollars a month.

what are you talking about? if a govt has enough money to put 50 bill every couple of months to a pointless war they can afford to properly pay the working man. especially if they own industries. please take lack of knowlege else where.

The thing is the government is in trilions of dollars in debt and I was actually reffering to cuba. Don't say I have a lack of knowledge when you decide to ignore history. What makes you think that a government that is already corrupt in democracy wouldn't take advantage of communism?

Ya, a human would take advantage of the fact. but if it was a true communist country im sure we could all be above middle class. please read the topic. in theory it could work.

in theory it could work, in reality it can't. aside from all the epic reforms we'd have to endure which would essentially be anarchy, its an impossible system to live under.
read my wall of text hopefully that sheds some light on it. giuliani's the posterboy for capitalism on it, its hard to miss his ugly face.

I dont care much about the idea of communism because i know it wont work here because of the power thirsty bastards out there. so i dont think its good idea overall.

At 6/22/07 03:59 PM, Nitroglys wrote: Your missing what im trying to debate.

I know exactly what you are trying to debate. And I'll continue to address it.

in theory communism could work. I know very well that we will never see it happen due to the human element of greed, but on paper communism would take care of plenty of problems.

Why do you idiots say this? "In theory" or "On paper" etc. You think that if everyone was completely selfless then Communism "could" work. I laugh at that argument. By the same logic, if everyone was completely honest then pure laissez-faire capitalism would be perfect (I still think it is). By the same logic, if everyone was completely loyal then feudalism or despotism "could" work. By the same logic, if everyone completely hated everyone but their own race then Nazism "could" work. But no one is that retarded to sit down and actually suggest that because they can conjure up some fantasy land where everyone is exactly the same that it makes for a good theory. No one says feudalism is "good on paper" or "good in theory." For that matter, no one says despotism or Nazism is either. Hell, no one says communism is "good on paper" or "good in theory." That is, except for idiots like you.

education, healthcare, poverty all of them can be dealt with using communism. Yes you lose the ability to get a higher pay than the next guy and the incredibly hard working people that strive for that extra dollar would be gone, but at what benifit. you see the good side of capitalism. people trying and achieving in soceity and that feels great to the people that can do it. but what about the people that can't the people stuck working a 9-5 job going no where and they still can't provide entirely for their family. the people who can't get a job beacuse its so competitive. the people who get steped on and pushed down into the gutter. These are the people we need to think of. it is selfish not to. it is selfish to say "come on you bum, get a damn job."

Yeah, I get it. You're emotional. I am sure your arguments really appeal to the kids in middle school. You have said all that crap before, and I have systematically refuted it before. Every honest transaction in a market economy where value is traded for value benefits everyone else participating in that market. I will address your view of the "people who get steped on and pushed down into the gutter" below.

maybe they can, but maybe the can't. maybe they are so far down the road of mal-education and in that vicious circle of drug child and spouse abuse that plauges the lower class

I am going to explain to you what is fundamentally wrong with your view. To quote my favorite politician, Ron Paul. The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity. In a free market, businesses that discriminate lose customers, goodwill, and valuable employees – while rational businesses flourish by choosing the most qualified employees and selling to all willing buyers. More importantly, in a free society every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality. This leads to a sense of individual responsibility and personal pride, making skin color irrelevant. Rather than looking to government to correct what is essentially a sin of the heart, we should understand that reducing racism requires a shift from group thinking to an emphasis on individualism.

Congressman Paul was mainly addressing racism, but his words are just as relevant to the topic of classism/class oppression. The market is blind to class, race, gender, etcetra. Anyone that can provide a service or produce a product that has appeal can be successful. It may not be easy for everyone to find opportunities to get training or education, but they most certainly exist. In a free society anyone that wants to and is willing to do what it takes can be successful, but only as long as these classifications of race, ethnicity, class, gender, etcetra do not impede the natural order of the market.

communism can prevent this from happening. sending kids to school on the gov't's dime. Dont try and say i'm wanting a free ride beacuse its not a lazy thing its a poor thing. maybe if we gave people some hope a gangbanger wouldnt have to steal to provide for his family.

More silly emotional arguements. And remember that nothing is on the "government's dime." All of that money is taken from the people in some way or another, so what you should say is "sending other kids to school on your dime without your consent." Do you think you can spend MY money that I painstakingly earned using some of the limited, precious time that I have in life better than I can?

sure they have a better standard of living then people in ethiopia, but the standard of living is so low there anyway you cant possibly compare it to that.

How about Russia? How about Cuba? How about North Korea? Get it yet?

the fact is that there are people are starving in our country.

No one starves in America, unless they want to. What is it with you and all the emotion?

there will always be people needing a job, and jobs to fit the peoples qualifactations.

I agree, so why do we need the government to employ them?

and sure money isnt the problem with soceity. its what people will do for it. sure it might help drive an industry, but people will kill for it. dont you see that is a problem.

I see it as the solution to every threat the human race has ever faced.

im not saying we would give money to the poor, just give them oppurtunity. something their not used to. you can't say that people don't get left behind in this "land of oppurtunity" it happens everyday. You think there aren't people who can't afford education for their kid. That alone can put a kid so far behind the 8-ball he can't get out. if you want a decent job anymore you need a college education. Denying that is wrong to do to any child. they don't diserive that. And why should you not invent something if you can't profit off of it. if it helps the common man you shouldn't be so selfish. You would have enough to provide why should you want anymore. and if you wanted to be a rockstar i guess you would have to be passionate enough to do it alongside your job. maybe if you got successful enough the gov't could pay for your tour. all these minute details could be hammered out. And im sry that i got the gov't ownership of industry wrong. but it doesnt change the fact that their will be a market for "stuff" we need to spend our money on. and as long as their is a market for it there will need to be a place of business for it, thus a need for a skyscraper. just beacuse there is no inscentive to achieve doesnt mean no one would work. it would slow down the people who would make less but i bet it would inspire thouse who made more. your just too selfish. i would work just as hard to help push soceity forward. i bet scientist dont even care as long as they have their name on it. which im sure they would it wouldnt say "so-and-so nation discovered". Communism can work. if humans wouldnt be so slefish. but too bad. it was a good thought.

More of the same crap we have already been over at least twice now. If you want to continue this then address my arguments. You obviously have a very shallow understanding of ecnomics and a very limited ability to argue from reason rather than emotion. Provide fresh, logical arguments based in reality or you will just be ignored by anyone above the age of fifteen.

What most people fail to understand is that that Marx already understood that human nature could be the ultimate downfall of a true communist society. Most people who argue against communism use this as their main argument. In a communist society, people are supposed to be placed in such a position that there is no need for exploitation or greed, because there would be nothing to exploit, nothing to be greedy about. Marx had the idea of the "New Man" who would be raised in communist society and education, to be bought up with the idea of no need for capitalsim or money. This is what would lead to perfect communist society. However the problem with the USSR was that Stalin took all power and employed his "Socialism in one country" idea. This is what aided in the downfall of communism because the idea is that communism could never work unless the entire world united and formed one world government. Eventually this government would disolve and people will be truely free.

I think under capitalist society, it is very similar to what the USSR and China are like today. People are just fed propaganda about their own system and how all others fail. In the US and most other "democratic" governments today people are so patriotic and trained to the idea nothing but their own system can work, so in the end, its no different from a dictatorship.

I believe in communism and everything it stands for, and although many will still argue it is something impossible to achieve, its still nice to believe in the idea. And just believing that something cant work is what helps in destroying it. If everyone believed in something, it could work.

in theory communism could work. I know very well that we will never see it happen due to the human element of greed, but on paper communism would take care of plenty of problems.

Why do you idiots say this? "In theory" or "On paper" etc. You think that if everyone was completely selfless then Communism "could" work. I laugh at that argument. By the same logic, if everyone was completely honest then pure laissez-faire capitalism would be perfect (I still think it is). By the same logic, if everyone was completely loyal then feudalism or despotism "could" work....

Agreed. I just wrote a piece explaining why communism was an impossibility. theres a difference between idealism and reality. Nobody is willing to give up individuality, sacrifice all their work and agree that the worth of a cleaner is equivalent to that of a doctor.
*sigh* im not going to comment on this further it seems im unloved.

However, Laissez-faire capitalism wouldn't work either. You're trusting faceless corporations fueled by investors and directors who have an insatiable appetitite for profit. The purpose of government intervention in some markets is so a monopolistic practice doesnt occur where a company begins charging obscene prices for an indispensible service. You've also forgotten the very purpose of the government. Its to maintain the interests of the people, whereas the purpose of a corporation is to churn in as much profit as possible. Say goodbye to employee entitlements, the minimum wage, standard working conditions, competition driven improvement you can argue that itd be in the interests of the company to keep workers happy but i can assure you most of the workforce will be easily dispensible and treated as such.

Lets see what happens when Companies lobby congress to vote in their favor:
Insurance Companies = Zero Universal Healthcare
Halliburton = No other company had the right to bid on Iraq War contracts
Media Corporations = Biased, Opinion-piece news devoid of any journalistic integrity.

You can use this argument for Laissez-Faire but its pretty clear that the sell-out congressmen and the faceless corporations only have one interest. Money. and its affects you. Whats that got to say for the future of a corporate system free of regulations?

I am going to explain to you what is fundamentally wrong with your view. To quote my favorite politician, Ron Paul. The true antidote to racism is liberty. Liberty means having a limited, constitutional government devoted to the protection of individual rights rather than group claims. Liberty means free-market capitalism, which rewards individual achievement and competence, not skin color, gender, or ethnicity. In a free market, businesses that discriminate lose customers, goodwill, and valuable employees – while rational businesses flourish by choosing the most qualified employees and selling to all willing buyers. More importantly, in a free society every citizen gains a sense of himself as an individual, rather than developing a group or victim mentality....

Congressman Paul was mainly addressing racism, but his words are just as relevant to the topic of classism/class oppression. The market is blind to class, race, gender, etcetra. Anyone that can provide a service or produce a product that has appeal can be successful. It may not be easy for everyone to find opportunities to get training or education, but they most certainly exist.

Under your ideal society its also a dog eat dog, the better man wins world. Do you want us to accelerate our lives into oblivion? Exactly how do you propose disabled, or mentally deficient people survive in this world.. do they just die? Are you that obsessed with Darwinian Principles? You're talking about a business world with nothing to impede upon it. This is most certainly going to lead to corporate abuses on an epic scale. The entire reason why Governments intervene with company activities is to stabilize the market, and protect the interests of the consumers whilst allowing the company enough space to grow. I can't envision a world where I've got dicks and vaginas posted on every wall, get 4 hours sleep and work 12 hours a day and work my ass off to ensure i meet an unspecified demand of the company. Laissez-Faire is as deranged an ideal as Communism. Actually I'd consider it worst.

In a free society anyone that wants to and is willing to do what it takes can be successful, but only as long as these classifications of race, ethnicity, class, gender, etcetra do not impede the natural order of the market.

Correction: Anyone that wants to and is good enough to do what it takes to be successful. That is, be better then all your peers at all times and ensure you consistently work impeccably so as not to get fired from your workplace. I don;t know about you but thats a little killjoy. I've got to work my ass off and never have an opportunity torelax. It also destroys the laid-back culture many people have come to love and appreciate in their respective countries.

More silly emotional arguements. And remember that nothing is on the "government's dime." All of that money is taken from the people in some way or another, so what you should say is "sending other kids to school on your dime without your consent." Do you think you can spend MY money that I painstakingly earned using some of the limited, precious time that I have in life better than I can?

Yes, because that's how our current society works. Aren;t you happy with it? You're provided with the opportunity to pursue your dreams and acquire as much wealth as you can accumulate. The only thing is you pay a little levy to the government which they then redistribute to people who are struggling or to improve the well-being of the general population.
I suppose youre purely capitalistic then. heartless and greedy.

sure they have a better standard of living then people in ethiopia, but the standard of living is so low there anyway you cant possibly compare it to that.
the fact is that there are people are starving in our country.

No one starves in America, unless they want to. What is it with you and all the emotion?

Wrong. Are you that naive? do you really think people choose to starve? Is it "I choose to starve" or rather is it possible that they find it difficult to find a job, or one befitting of their capacities. Do you once again propose we let this people starve to death...

I see it [money] as the solution to every threat the human race has ever faced.

Money and power have also been the underlying cause for most of the threats the human race has ever faced.

im not saying we would give money to the poor, just give them oppurtunity. something their not used to. you can't say that people don't get left behind in this "land of oppurtunity" i

More of the same crap we have already been over at least twice now. If you want to continue this then address my arguments. You obviously have a very shallow understanding of ecnomics and a very limited ability to argue from reason rather than emotion.

Anybody with half a brain would easily interpret that youre deranged and have lost touch with humanity. He may be emotive, but its human to be compassionate and feel concern for others. His ideal world is: everybody shares everything equally
Your ideal world is: the best survive the weak perish.

Its pretty easy who most people would align themselves with irrespective of the legitimacy of your arguments. Laissez-Faire doesn't work. Nor does Communism. The system that we've currently got seems like a good moderation between the two though no?

At 6/22/07 08:35 PM, tony4moroney wrote: A lot.

I have put forth no arugment for laissez faire economics other than the underlying philosophical principles. I did mention that I feel it is a perfect system. If you want to talk about it, make a topic and we can discuss it there. There is no need to derail this.

As far as people starving in America, every single American in the United States has the opportunity for the basic necessities of life. No one is refused these.

At 6/22/07 07:54 PM, KingCommunist wrote: the US and most other "democratic" governments today people are so patriotic and trained to the idea nothing but their own system can work, so in the end, its no different from a dictatorship.

So with freedoms llke speech and voting it is a dictatorship?

If everyone believed in something, it could work.

Is suppose if everyone belived we could grow gills and breath under water it would magically occur.

Well the real reason I am replying to your post is because your name doesn't make sense since I thought Communism was against monarchy.