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In keeping with the topic, here is a link, for those who may be interested...
http://www.gnosis.org/ecclesia/catechism.htm

Here's a neat question I came up with, esp for Big Bang enthusiasts...

What's beyond the edges of the universe? Before we allegedly had the big bang when all matter exploded from a point the size of a pinhead, what was AROUND it? Whiteness? Nothingness? But how? What came before that?
When was the beginning of time?

*brain hurts*

To ask what happened before the beginning of time is as meaningless as asking, what can you see through your elbow (as opposed to an eye). There is no before time. I've heard Hawking has a pretty good explanation for the beginning of time, the problem is theoretical physics can get mathy. As for the pinpoint comment, The 10/26 dimentions of the universe were unified at the time of the big bang, 'around' had no real meaning in the same way we think of things. It's hard to explain, kind of like explaining how compound interest works to someone who can barely count.

ANYWAYS.

Thanks for the Gnosticism link Andrea, I hope the inquisition doesn't start following you.

By the way, for you Funk, faith in reason is not faith at all, for faith is the lack of reason. If all the evidence points to some consequence, you are not faithful for supporting it, but rational. I hope you never make this mistake again, for it can lead to the damnation of your mind if you start to hold mysticism and reason as equals.

Dr. Arbitrary

There have been tales of people being saved from Hell by Jesus himself after truly wanting forgiveness. However, by the Book of Revelation, those who take the mark of the AntiChrist shall be eternally damned, for during the Tribulation, God's existance will become obvious to all, and at that point any who deny Gos and instead serve the AntiChrist cannot be saved.

Thanks for the info, where can one find a written copy of one of these tales?

At 6/12/03 02:59 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: By the way, for you Funk, faith in reason is not faith at all, for faith is the lack of reason. If all the evidence points to some consequence, you are not faithful for supporting it, but rational. I hope you never make this mistake again, for it can lead to the damnation of your mind if you start to hold mysticism and reason as equals.

I think it requires faith to believe in reason. I can look around myself and say: "This world is an illusion, thus any explanation for what is is useless to me, because nothing really exists at all. Therefore, I have no need of reason." You see, with this nihilistic viewpoint, I could have no faith in reason, and therefore its truth or lack thereof will not apply to me. But if I say: "Reason, without a shadow of a doubt, must explain all the universe, even the unexplained" then I MUST have faith in reason, because until all the universe is proven, reason still may not be a completely valid belief.

Furthermore, are not the stars mysterious? Are they not also explained by reason? Does this not then make reason the key to understanding the inner mysteries of the universe? And thus, is reason not mystic? Understanding an event through reason does not remove the feeling of awe an event may bring. It is one thing to know a bulldozer is designed by men with reason. It is quite another to see one destroy a mountain.

(I love debating philosophy)

At 6/12/03 03:22 PM, Flotis wrote: There have been tales of people being saved from Hell by Jesus himself after truly wanting forgiveness. However, by the Book of Revelation, those who take the mark of the AntiChrist shall be eternally damned, for during the Tribulation, God's existance will become obvious to all, and at that point any who deny Gos and instead serve the AntiChrist cannot be saved.

What exactly is the mark of the antiChrist, and as Arbitraty said, where can we get a copy of these tales?

To the posts below that one:
From now on, copying ideas from the Matrix will be considered cheap.

:P

At 6/13/03 10:45 AM, misterx2000 wrote: To the posts below that one:
From now on, copying ideas from the Matrix will be considered cheap.

P

fother mucker! I stole mine from "Allegory of a Cave", not "The Matrix". damn pop culture.....

At 6/12/03 12:46 PM, misterx2000 wrote: What's beyond the edges of the universe? Before we allegedly had the big bang when all matter exploded from a point the size of a pinhead, what was AROUND it? Whiteness? Nothingness? But how? What came before that?
When was the beginning of time?

It really depends on your interpretation of quantum theory. Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) states that the quantum wavefunction does not collapse, but rather splits forming parallel universes/realities. All are contained on a higher plane of super-spacetime, an all-encompassing region of infinite dimension and possibility. This is the interpretation that I favor, although at our current point in physics research, we can't tell if either MWI or Copenhagen interpretations are correct. We know one is right via experiments done with photons, but both predict the same experimental results. Copenhagen states that the quantum wave function remains in a superposition of states until observed, and then collapses into one state or the other forming a single clear reality. This of course leads down the path to solipsism.

At 6/13/03 10:45 AM, misterx2000 wrote: To the posts below that one:
From now on, copying ideas from the Matrix will be considered cheap.

P

Really man, you need to get your philosophy straight, Plato predated the Matrix by like 3 or 4 years.

At 6/13/03 10:41 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: Really man, you need to get your philosophy straight, Plato predated the Matrix by like 3 or 4 years.

argh, now I feel all unvalidated. Come on, Dr. A, argue the faith in logic argument with me. It's been years since I've studied my philo, I need to keep the ole claws sharp.

Well, the way I've always seen it, Faith is DEFINED as holding something to be true without reason. It's kind of like hot and cold, as cold is the absense of heat.

See, It's impossible to prove everything, we have to start with a few self evident axioms, but what is referred to as "consistency" and "integrity" is ones committment to the consequences of these axioms.

This is why I have a hard time arguing this point, the way I see it, faith in reason is a contradiction in terms, kind of like saying 'this statement is false' it just has no meaning, expresses no concepts or ideas, just a collection of words that looks like the normal configuration but after analysis holds no meaning.

Dr. Arbitrary

Oh, someone asked about the mark of the antichrist, there is no mark. My best friend is the antichrist and he looks pretty much normal (a little bit husky though). You might think I'm joking but I'm actually as serious as I get, he fits all the signs and everything. His name is Matt and he lives in Phoenix Arizona (see, it's hot in Arizona, just like in hell)

Really, I'm serious

Dr. Arbitrary

P.S. I'm not joking

At 6/16/03 02:23 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: Well, the way I've always seen it, Faith is DEFINED as holding something to be true without reason. It's kind of like hot and cold, as cold is the absense of heat.

See, It's impossible to prove everything, we have to start with a few self evident axioms, but what is referred to as "consistency" and "integrity" is ones committment to the consequences of these axioms.

This is why I have a hard time arguing this point, the way I see it, faith in reason is a contradiction in terms, kind of like saying 'this statement is false' it just has no meaning, expresses no concepts or ideas, just a collection of words that looks like the normal configuration but after analysis holds no meaning.

Dr. Arbitrary

so youre saying its a chicken before the egg scenario (not exactly)? Logic requires faith in certain basic truths (I think therefore I am, etc), but is the purpose of logic to destroy faith, and replace it with math, or to give faith a foundation? Is Logic proof of faith justified, or is it somehow selfgenerating? I say that to say that if nihilism is a paradox, then the reaction to that paradox would be the creation of logic? Is the the origin of the universe? Is logic the one thing that can exist without a precursor, and therefore is the "unmoved mover"? Was the Bible right when it said, "in the beginning was the word (trans "logos") and the word was with God, and the word was God"?

Or to follow the previous line of reasoning, is faith all that really exists, and logic is only a twisting of that faith to its extremes? I have faith that 1+1=2, therefore, by my faith, the universe is changed so that 1+1=2 becomes true? Does this give faith power to change reality, even if for only the beholder? To help prove this thesis, I submit the argument of the insane man. If I have faith that a thing has happened, to the point where I will not accept any argument nor proof to the contrary, but rather reconfigure such evidence to the benefit of my faith, so that for me, that in which I have faith is always true? to others I would be insane, but as reality is only the interpretation of a man, to the insane man this insanity IS IN FACT TRUTH? So that truth is defined by faith, and that since logic is true, that it is also defined by faith.

I hope I didnt get entangled in my own stream of conciousness, so I will summarize my arguments thusly

1 Does only logic exist, and mans failure to understand all things necessitize faith? And thus with enough logic, all things are possible?

OR

2 Is logic determined by faith, and with enough faith, all things are possible?

I think that by oversimplifying the definitions of Faith and Reason you have confused yourself. Reason is rooted in axioms, a true axiom can not be refuted because the act of trying to refute it requires that very axiom as a premise. An attempt to contradict an axiom can only end in a contradiction. Basically, it can be proven that axioms cannot be disproven.