Alternative Christianity

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

I came across an interesting take on christianity which suprisingly has a constructive ethical code and promotes positive attitudes and behaviors.

Premises:
1. God exists and as an application of his nature, creates the universe.
2. Knowledge is possible.
3. The transcendent Good is knowledge and understanding of God.
4. Man's nature is rational.

There might be more but that's the basics.
Here's a rundown.
The 'goal' of life is to understand God. Every miracle in the bible can be explained in terms of revealing the nature of God. Examples: The destruction of Sodom shows how god wants us to behave, The Bible tells us about god, Jesus tells us how to become close to god, Heaven lets us be with god (and learn more about him as a consequence) Hell shows us the pain of not knowing God.

Furthermore, Hell cannot be eternal, the purpose of Gods miracles is to teach us, and if hell is eternal, even after learning the error of our ways you still are stuck. That makes very little sence. Purgatory, an intermediate step, fits in better. A series of lessons that one progresses through, teaching us where we went wrong and ultimately letting us see firsthand the splendor of heaven. The only way hell can be eternal is if everything that can be learned, can be learned best in hell. If that is the case, after we are done in heaven, we go to hell. And even then, hell wouldn't be that bad (because the good is attaining knowledge, and happiness is a consequence of obtaining the Good)

Some consequences of this theological standpoint.
Science is one of the most honorable endeavors as it helps us understand creation and thus come closer to understanding God.
Rationality is the highest virtue and the irrational are punished.
No hell, and therefore no need to scare people into donating to the church.
Reason is applied to the Bible and the nonsensical and unapplicable parts are disregarded. (and critical analysis is put in to weed out cultural bias and errors of men)

Imagine what the world would be like if christians were more like this. It may not be good enough for you hardcore atheists, but think about it. It's a good first step for people who trust in faith instead of reason. If we convert the world to reason, we will have already won.
Imagine Oral Roberts requesting $1,000,000 to build an experimental fusion reactor for the purpose of increasing the understanding of our world and it's creator. I'd donate.

Questions, comments, requests for clarification?
(try to keep an open mind. Considering that it's more coherent than normal Christianity, I think it could help turn some people away from the dark side of Fedaism.)
Dr. Arbitrary

[Commander-K25]

Very true. Since God is the underlying driving force of the universe, (if not the universe itself), then science, (especially theoretical physics), is a holy pursuit as it aims to learn and understand his methods.

[Kenney333]

Not a bad way of thinking or living, just as long as they dont start any wars on me, or begin any crusades, or lecture me about finding god, or assaulting me with endless flyers about how judgement day is apperantly coming when i walk into the liquer stole, then again, i like celebrating when it turns out that they were wrong, and the apocolyspe wasnt next thursday, cheers.

as for now ill stick with my nihilism thank you

[FUNKbrs]

Damnit, I was all happy, I thought I was going to learn all about a new religious concept, and then Yahoo crapped out and didnt give any links of Fedaism. To top it all off, I couldnt even get a definition for it on Dictionary.com. I'm all hot and bothered now, please tell me what Fedaism is.

[Commander-K25]

At 6/4/03 08:38 PM, Kenney333 wrote: as for now ill stick with my nihilism thank you

You know that Nietzsche's philosophy of nihilism was proven to be fundamentally flawed, right? He based it on the physics concept of eternal return, which has since been proven false.

[Lyddiechu]

At 6/4/03 11:28 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 6/4/03 08:38 PM, Kenney333 wrote: as for now ill stick with my nihilism thank you

You know that Nietzsche's philosophy of nihilism was proven to be fundamentally flawed, right? He based it on the physics concept of eternal return, which has since been proven false.

AHHH AHHHH!!! THE ETERNAL RECURRENCE!!!! ITS COME BACK TO HAUNT ME!!!! I took an existentialism class thru johns hopkins university 2 summers ago.. it was incredible but i gotta say nietzsche was not my favorite author. that would have to be kierkegaard.. that crazy danish (or was it swedish?) bastard.

[torq]

Just sounds to me like more wishful thinking on the part of people that refuse to believe in the possibility of their insignificance. However, Christians could benefit greatly from altering their beliefs to catch up with modern science and understanding of existence.

[Freakapotimus]

At 6/4/03 02:48 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: Premises:
1. God exists and as an application of his nature, creates the universe.
2. Knowledge is possible.
3. The transcendent Good is knowledge and understanding of God.
4. Man's nature is rational.

Sounds pretty good from any standpoint, not necessarily Christian. I'd add that God is not a person or thing, anything concrete, but something that is anywhere and everywhere. I don't believe in the vision of some guy sitting on a throne controlling and judging what happens on earth.

I also think that the search is more important that the discovery.

At 6/4/03 08:38 PM, Kenney333 wrote: ... lecture me about finding god, or assaulting me with endless flyers about how judgement day is apperantly ...

The search that I mentioned above is a personal thing, and I don't think anyone should force that on another person.

[Commander-K25]

At 6/4/03 11:37 PM, Lyddiechu wrote:
AHHH AHHHH!!! THE ETERNAL RECURRENCE!!!! ITS COME BACK TO HAUNT ME!!!! I took an existentialism class thru johns hopkins university 2 summers ago.. it was incredible but i gotta say nietzsche was not my favorite author. that would have to be kierkegaard.. that crazy danish (or was it swedish?) bastard.

Never been much on philosophy myself. Searching for the meaning of life? Sure, they can knock themselves out. But, when they try to explain the universe, existence and the nature of reality, they're stepping into bounds of the physicists.

[bumcheekcity]

I kind of like the idea of an old man sitting on a throne somewhere with infinite wisdom and infinite power. Either that or a 5-year old, as he would act only on what he thought was right.

Would you prefer God to be an old man, or a young child? Just a question.

[Commander-K25]

At 6/5/03 05:26 PM, bumcheekycity wrote: I kind of like the idea of an old man sitting on a throne somewhere with infinite wisdom and infinite power. Either that or a 5-year old, as he would act only on what he thought was right.

Would you prefer God to be an old man, or a young child? Just a question.

Well, it doesn't really matter, but if I had to choose I'd probably a massive mainframe that filled infinite rooms and rambled on and on into infinite complexity and length. An AI sort of God.

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

At 6/4/03 08:40 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: Damnit, I was all happy, I thought I was going to learn all about a new religious concept, and then Yahoo crapped out and didnt give any links of Fedaism. To top it all off, I couldnt even get a definition for it on Dictionary.com. I'm all hot and bothered now, please tell me what Fedaism is.

Fideism
F I D E I S M
Foxtrot
India
Delta
Echo
India
Sierra
Mike

I apologize for my spelling error. I'm an idiot, I need to be more careful with that kind of thing. Again, I apologize.

Dr. A :-(

[Slizor]

STFU about Philosophy, I just had a three hour exam on it. Really pissed me off it did, had to do Plato's Republic rather than Marx.

[Nirvana13666]

I find it funny when people really think an alternative to their religion is still being faithful to their God.

Religion is not something people can just change cause they can't hack the "rules" of their current religion. I have personal beliefs that clash with every single existing religion so I just don't believe in any of them.

I am just responding to your topic title in paticular.

[Commander-K25]

At 6/6/03 07:41 PM, Nirvana13666 wrote: I find it funny when people really think an alternative to their religion is still being faithful to their God.

Only if that alternative is belief in another God. I believe in Christ and therefore consider myself a Christian, but I also carry some Deist beliefs. Does that mean I am "breaking the rules" of Christianity? No, I still believe in it, I just have a different way of looking at it.

[Malachy]

At 6/6/03 07:41 PM, Nirvana13666 wrote: I find it funny when people really think an alternative to their religion is still being faithful to their God.

i agree man, its not trying to take down the rules, its more of finding yourself spiritually, and thus, helping yourself learn how you can be more faithfol twards your god of choice, thus bringing you closer to what your religion promises be it heaven or spiritual inlightnement (Nirvana)

[Freakapotimus]

I don't think a relationship/communication with deity needs to be confined to rules and regulations of a certain religion.

[Malachy]

At 6/6/03 09:18 PM, Freakapotimus wrote: I don't think a relationship/communication with deity needs to be confined to rules and regulations of a certain religion.

well, in the catholic religion, mine :), we believe that god loves us, and that if we seek to live how jesus did, we will have a relationship with god after we pass to heaven.

also, i think it says in one of our prayers that we must acnoledge we have a relationship with god, and its said in some of our weekly readings.

but i totally understand what your saying, if you know that there is a god, then you need not have a relationship with him/her/it because you know of it

[bumcheekcity]

At 6/6/03 07:41 PM, Nirvana13666 wrote: I find it funny when people really think an alternative to their religion is still being faithful to their God.

I believe God exists, but I don't believe Jesus is/was his son. I don't think that there is a hell, because I dont like the idea of men burning forever for their crimes. I think he would have sdome kind of heart-reading ability, where he could see what you really thought and stuff.

I guess I do thnk of him as an old man sitting on a throne, he's slow moving and thinks things through, and only acts where he sees fit.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe there is no god at all and all the religious people are wasting their time.

Ah, sod it. I have absolutely no idea what/who God is.

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

I only present an alternative interpretation of the bible, one that leads to more constructive attitudes towards life. The reason I present it is to convert christians who base their beliefs on faith to christians who base their beliefs on reason. Even if the reason is somewhat shaky in some areas, the glorification of reason can only lead to gradual improvement. (I'd be willing to bet that it would lead more christians towards atheism and agnosticism than outright calling them stupid and wrong.)

Does anyone think this idea can bring about REAL change (not just talk). I happen to think so.

Dr. Arbitrary

[Lyddiechu]

I think religion was fake in the first place, so if you want to make some crap up and call it a religion go ahead. God diddn't tell anyone to do anything. Religion was created as a force to govern people before states and nations existed. In other words, it was a completely ingenious invention but now we have moved beyond the need for it.

On the other hand, I still believe in the validity of the 10 commandments and celebrate Jewish holidays because I feel it is my cultural and racial identity. It's my way of respecting and communing with the memory of my elders, just like building a shrine is the way for a Taoist or Shintoist to do the same for their elders. I don't necessarily believe in G-d, after all I am only human and can't ever know the whole truth since I am limited by the bounds of my mind and physics. No one can ever know the whole truth of G-d or whether or not it really exists becasue they are only human. If there is any G-d its the combined effect of mother nature's force and blind, dumb chance.

However, even If I think its foolish that certain religions do certain things, I know it really isn't any dumber than me following any of the practices of my religion. Everyone has their own reason for doing what they do so no one can ever tell anyone else their beliefs don't matter.

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

That really has very little to do with this topic. Just because the word Christianity appears in the title, it doesn't mean it is an invitation for everyone to post "I hate religin, pepl who belive in god R dum"

Thanks.

Dr. Arbitrary

[Lyddiechu]

I wasn't saying I hated religion, I just think it's outdated.

[Commander-K25]

Most of those who is against religion seems to think it is "outdated." How so? Religion is belief in something. Is the very concept of belief outdated? Maybe because it is not fashionable these days to think that there is anything besides the most shallow and material aims and things we can see around us.

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

All I'm saying is this isn't the place. I made a topic discussing an alternate interpretation of christianity. The intent was to explain the ideas behind this interpretation, and some of the possible consequences. I also asked for people to give commentary on the idea I presented.

General opinions on religion really are out of place, I would be really upset if this turned into a "I hate religion" "No, I hate religion" "I hate religion more" topic that has popped up so many other times. The topic is: " 'Christianity with reason at base as opposed to Christianity with faith at base' it's consequences and peoples opinions on "Christianity with reason at base as opposed to Christianity with faith at base" " Please keep this in mind if you post more replies

Dr. Arbitrary

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

I hope I didn't scare everyone off with fears that I'll bitch everyone out who posts. I just want things to kind of stay on topic (I wasn't too upset about the nihlism stuff because it doesn't come up all the time, the anti-christianity ticked me off though, far too common)

Dr. Arbitrary

[Slizor]

"Christianity with reason at base as opposed to Christianity with faith at base" " Please keep this in mind if you post more replies

The thing is that the choice you have presented is not that. Your premises are the base and they are issues to do with faith, quite clearly. Sure, you are offering "alternative Christianity" which uses reason, but the base of it is still to do with belief.

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

I can make some pretty strong proofs for some of the premises (others, pretty weak ones) but I left them out because I figured the epistemology would turn people off.

I don't think that this is the best way to think, but I think that it is a better way to think than normal christianity. I agree that there is an obvious self contradiction in the system, the dependence on faith for some of the premises (unless someone can prove the existence of god) but glorification of reason could cause internal conflict in those who accept this viewpoint. But I'd think that someone who is struggling between good and evil is better off than someone who has accepted evil.

Dr. Arbitrary

[misterx2000]

Existentialism is pretty...well, pointless. It's believing in not believing. Combine with suicidal tendencies and you have a prob...

[FUNKbrs]

At 6/11/03 03:18 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: I can make some pretty strong proofs for some of the premises (others, pretty weak ones) but I left them out because I figured the epistemology would turn people off.

I don't think that this is the best way to think, but I think that it is a better way to think than normal christianity. I agree that there is an obvious self contradiction in the system, the dependence on faith for some of the premises (unless someone can prove the existence of god) but glorification of reason could cause internal conflict in those who accept this viewpoint. But I'd think that someone who is struggling between good and evil is better off than someone who has accepted evil.

Dr. Arbitrary

I'm still a big fan of the "unmoved mover" definition of God. I still havent heard any other good definition for how we got from nothing to something, and to believe there was always something requires faith. Strange how my lack of faith makes me religious, when it seems to make everyone else atheists....