Puntin And His Nukes World War3???

[GothKid32]

If anybodys heard that the Russian president said that if we put up a weapons sheild in Europe. Than he will have new targets in Europe..... Meaning our shield and the major citys in Europe....
Is he treatining us?????????
Just want to know what you all think about that.

[altanese-mistress]

Now children, wanting a balance of power in the world and fearing too much power for any one nation is not the same as anti-Americanism.

[Korriken]

eh, I seriously doubt Putin would actually fire a missile, considering the fact that they would have to deal with europe, america, and probably Israel, all of who have their own nukes, and russia doesn't have any defense against nukes, and guess where nuke 1 would hit? that's right! Moscow!

[altanese-mistress]

At 6/13/07 04:12 PM, Korriken wrote: eh, I seriously doubt Putin would actually fire a missile, considering the fact that they would have to deal with europe, america, and probably Israel, all of who have their own nukes,

You're forgetting that Russia has over half the world's supply of nukes, and they have developed the most destructive nukes (their biggest nuke; Czar Bomba (literally 'King of Bombs') ; had four times the destructive power of America's biggest nuke; Castle Bravo)

and russia doesn't have any defense against nukes,

That's just it; if a missle shield were to be developed, then Russia will have pretty much lost it's trump card and the balance of power in the world would heavily lean to the West.

and guess where nuke 1 would hit? that's right! Moscow!

Yes, and if nuclear winter magically didn't happen and all human civilization (if not all human life) weren't extinguished, then next stage is ground warfare, and Russia historically has been known to have every last citizen fighting until the last drop of blood in defense of the Motherland.

[gijfef]

I agree with altanese. The russians wouldnt fire missiles, and in ground warfare they would pretty much walk over anybody standing in its way. It is one mahusive countryafter all. It is not a post communist waste land people think it is. Under Putin it has crawled back to industrial highs, and it has an awful lot of gas, so war with russia would most likely end up with europe having no gas for power etc.

[TheBasics]

At 6/13/07 04:18 PM, altanese-mistress wrote:

At 6/13/07 04:12 PM, Korriken wrote:

Yeah before the SALT agreements between the US and USSR, Russia had about 40,000 warheads as opposed to US' 28,000. Regardless of the quantity both countries can destroy the world numerious of times over. So nuclear war will be the last thing anyone wants to do.

[emmytee]

Ok, I just want to clear up a big misconception people seem to have here. The reason Putin said he would have new targets in Europe is because every inch of American soil is bound to be covered by Putins nukes already, as are the major European cities. The sheild and the cities/ military basesof the countries hosting the shield would be the only 'new' targets. Although most of those were probably covered already anyway.

[altanese-mistress]

At 6/13/07 04:44 PM, TheBasics wrote: Yeah before the SALT agreements between the US and USSR, Russia had about 40,000 warheads as opposed to US' 28,000. Regardless of the quantity both countries can destroy the world numerious of times over. So nuclear war will be the last thing anyone wants to do.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, or so the old saying goes. The Russian people would rather burn their own nation to cinders than have a foreign power occupy it. It's been that way ever since Ivan the Terrible; first of the Romonov dynasty; drove the Mongols from the northern Slavic lands. The point is that in a case of war with Russia, you can bet that if they ended up staring at defeat they'd say 'screw it' to human extinction.

[TheBasics]

At 6/13/07 04:49 PM, altanese-mistress wrote:

At 6/13/07 04:44 PM, TheBasics wrote: Yeah before the SALT agreements between the US and USSR, Russia had about 40,000 warheads as opposed to US' 28,000. Regardless of the quantity both countries can destroy the world numerious of times over. So nuclear war will be the last thing anyone wants to do.

Desperate times call for desperate measures, or so the old saying goes. The Russian people would rather burn their own nation to cinders than have a foreign power occupy it. It's been that way ever since Ivan the Terrible; first of the Romonov dynasty; drove the Mongols from the northern Slavic lands. The point is that in a case of war with Russia, you can bet that if they ended up staring at defeat they'd say 'screw it' to human extinction.

Yeah I know what you mean, but its not like some other country is actually trying to occupy Russia. The US wants to build a missle defense system, even though that might seem threatening, Russia won't start a nuclear war over it.

[altanese-mistress]

At 6/13/07 04:55 PM, TheBasics wrote: Yeah I know what you mean, but its not like some other country is actually trying to occupy Russia. The US wants to build a missle defense system, even though that might seem threatening, Russia won't start a nuclear war over it.

Ah, but the thing is that this missle defense system renders Russia's greatest power mostly null against the areas of the world it would most likely need to use said power. And Russia's government is shaky enough to allow for a trigger-happy paranoid Russian supremacist to gain power, again.

[JakeHero]

At 6/13/07 04:01 PM, altanese-mistress wrote: Now children, wanting a balance of power in the world and fearing too much power for any one nation is not the same as anti-Americanism.

America has proven that it is not hell-bent on world domination. Russia, on the other hand....well, you know the rest. The only reason Vladimir Putin is against the shield defense is because it ruins in visions he has of bringing back and Soviet Empire.

[altanese-mistress]

At 6/13/07 05:05 PM, JakeHero wrote: America has proven that it is not hell-bent on world domination.

Nah, we already have near-global hegenomy.

Russia, on the other hand....well, you know the rest.

Yes; it's not currently bent on world domination and you're a damn fool if you think it is.

The only reason Vladimir Putin is against the shield defense is because it ruins in visions he has of bringing back and Soviet Empire.

Putin is going to be out soon just like Bush and Blair; if he ever had any intentions of making Russia into an Empire (I laugh at the notion that anyone could think it would be a Soviet one) then he would have acted on those intentions by now.

[TheBasics]

At 6/13/07 05:01 PM, altanese-mistress wrote:

At 6/13/07 04:55 PM, TheBasics wrote: Yeah I know what you mean, but its not like some other country is actually trying to occupy Russia. The US wants to build a missle defense system, even though that might seem threatening, Russia won't start a nuclear war over it.

Ah, but the thing is that this missle defense system renders Russia's greatest power mostly null against the areas of the world it would most likely need to use said power. And Russia's government is shaky enough to allow for a trigger-happy paranoid Russian supremacist to gain power, again.

I agree, but Putin isn't exactly a humanitarian that strives for world peace. He's an ex-KGB agent who doesn't give a shit about people. So having a trigger-happy Russian supremacist won't be a much different situation than it already is with Putin. And I pray to God that another Stalin doesn't grab the reigns of power cause if that happened, another 20 million people will be executed during his regime and a threat of nuclear war will be more likely.

[altanese-mistress]

At 6/13/07 05:10 PM, TheBasics wrote: I agree, but Putin isn't exactly a humanitarian that strives for world peace.

Oh dear god no, I never said anything like that.

So having a trigger-happy Russian supremacist won't be a much different situation than it already is with Putin.

Mmm, SOMEONE has never heard of the National Bolshevik party I mentioned in another thread....

And I pray to God that another Stalin doesn't grab the reigns of power

Acutally, even today Stalin is seen as a national hero. People who had their families slaughtered by him cried at his funeral. Why? Because he made a backwards agrarian nation into a major industrial and military world power which was also (at the time) one of the only two nations in the world with nukes. It's hard to grasp just how important the nation and the state are to certain cultures and people such as Russians and Japanese.

cause if that happened, another 20 million people will be executed during his regime and a threat of nuclear war will be more likely.

Actually, Stalin would have executed plans to invade Western Europe just a few years after his death.

[TheBasics]

At 6/13/07 05:18 PM, altanese-mistress wrote:

At 6/13/07 05:10 PM, TheBasics wrote: I agree, but Putin isn't exactly a humanitarian that strives for world peace.

Oh dear god no, I never said anything like that.

So having a trigger-happy Russian supremacist won't be a much different situation than it already is with Putin.

Mmm, SOMEONE has never heard of the National Bolshevik party I mentioned in another thread....

And I pray to God that another Stalin doesn't grab the reigns of power

Acutally, even today Stalin is seen as a national hero. People who had their families slaughtered by him cried at his funeral. Why? Because he made a backwards agrarian nation into a major industrial and military world power which was also (at the time) one of the only two nations in the world with nukes. It's hard to grasp just how important the nation and the state are to certain cultures and people such as Russians and Japanese.

cause if that happened, another 20 million people will be executed during his regime and a threat of nuclear war will be more likely.

Actually, Stalin would have executed plans to invade Western Europe just a few years after his death.

Yeah I heard of the National Bolshevik party, I'm Russian. Stalin did turn Russia into a superpower and who knows maybe without Stalin's totalitarian rule we would have never made it through WW2. The only reason people went to his funeral is beacuse he struck fear into their hearts even after his death. Me and most of my Russian friends agree that Stalin was by far the most terrible leader, more terrible than Peter and Ivan the terrible. The reason Russia would not have invaded is beacuse America had nukes, and they wouldn't have wanted their European allies (NATO) to fall victim to an Invasion from the Soviet Union. Therefore they would have threatened to fore missles on the Soviet Union if it invaded europe.

[JakeHero]

At 6/13/07 05:09 PM, altanese-mistress wrote:

At 6/13/07 05:05 PM, JakeHero wrote:

Nah, we already have near-global hegenomy.

There's a big difference. America didn't conquer its defeated foes and even rebuilt them free of charge. Had we had the same mentality of the Soviets and Mr. KGB Putin then we'd of claimed them as a territory.

Russia, on the other hand....well, you know the rest.

Yes; it's not currently bent on world domination and you're a damn fool if you think it is.

Right, so you're going to ignore the imperialist sentiment of its people. I think you're a damn fool if you want to ignore that based upon your pro-communist/soviet views.

Putin is going to be out soon just like Bush and Blair; if he ever had any intentions of making Russia into an Empire (I laugh at the notion that anyone could think it would be a Soviet one) then he would have acted on those intentions by now.

Umm, Putin can't just declare himself the Emperor of that Ice wasteland the next day, he has maneuver himself effectively. He himself was a member of the KGB, has had political critics assassinated(Or his associates) and even suggested limiting civil rights after the terrorist capturing that school.

[altanese-mistress]

At 6/13/07 05:28 PM, TheBasics wrote: Yeah I heard of the National Bolshevik party, I'm Russian.

Oh, kudos. Ethnic or national or both?

Stalin did turn Russia into a superpower and who knows maybe without Stalin's totalitarian rule we would have never made it through WW2.

Then again, with Trotsky and his policy of 'world revolution', the backing of German socialist and communist parties might have prevented the Nazis from gaining power in the first place. The irony....

more terrible than Peter and Ivan the terrible.

Peter the Great? I thought he was by far the greatest leader Russia has ever had.

The reason Russia would not have invaded is beacuse America had nukes, and they wouldn't have wanted their European allies (NATO) to fall victim to an Invasion from the Soviet Union. Therefore they would have threatened to fore missles on the Soviet Union if it invaded europe.

I can just say that you know how Stalin was....

[TheBasics]

At 6/13/07 05:37 PM, altanese-mistress wrote:

At 6/13/07 05:28 PM, TheBasics wrote: Yeah I heard of the National Bolshevik party, I'm Russian.

Oh, kudos. Ethnic or national or both?

Stalin did turn Russia into a superpower and who knows maybe without Stalin's totalitarian rule we would have never made it through WW2.

Then again, with Trotsky and his policy of 'world revolution', the backing of German socialist and communist parties might have prevented the Nazis from gaining power in the first place. The irony....

more terrible than Peter and Ivan the terrible.

Peter the Great? I thought he was by far the greatest leader Russia has ever had.

The reason Russia would not have invaded is beacuse America had nukes, and they wouldn't have wanted their European allies (NATO) to fall victim to an Invasion from the Soviet Union. Therefore they would have threatened to fore missles on the Soviet Union if it invaded europe.

I can just say that you know how Stalin was....

I am both Slavic and was born in Russia. Peter the Great, like Stalin, did do positive things for Russia like visiting many western european nations and learning different ideas to make Russia stronger, he also tried to get Russia a warm water port, which would make Russia stronger both economically and in terms of military. However he did kill many monorities to keep the Russian empire together, killing people in countries under the empire like Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine and Belarus. And about Stalin, yes he was a totalitarian extremist, but he wasn't stupid. If he was stupid he would have invaded Europe in 1953 after the nuclear tests.

[Hardcoded-Ham]

No, ever will dare to drop a nuke ANYWHERE becouse if one drops a nuke, it spells out its ok to drops nukes for eveyone = Armaggeddon.

[altanese-mistress]

At 6/13/07 05:47 PM, TheBasics wrote: Peter the Great, like Stalin, did do positive things for Russia like visiting many western european nations and learning different ideas to make Russia stronger, he also tried to get Russia a warm water port, which would make Russia stronger both economically and in terms of military. However he did kill many monorities to keep the Russian empire together, killing people in countries under the empire like Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine and Belarus.

Historically that's how ALL great Russian leaders have done things; it's how St. Petersburg was made, it's how it gains independance from the Golden Horde and expanded, it's how the nationw as industrialized....

And about Stalin, yes he was a totalitarian extremist, but he wasn't stupid. If he was stupid he would have invaded Europe in 1953 after the nuclear tests.

He did have plans to invade Western Europe justa few years after his death, you know.

[TheBasics]

At 6/13/07 05:51 PM, altanese-mistress wrote:

At 6/13/07 05:47 PM, TheBasics wrote: Peter the Great, like Stalin, did do positive things for Russia like visiting many western european nations and learning different ideas to make Russia stronger, he also tried to get Russia a warm water port, which would make Russia stronger both economically and in terms of military. However he did kill many monorities to keep the Russian empire together, killing people in countries under the empire like Estonia, Latvia, Ukraine and Belarus.

Historically that's how ALL great Russian leaders have done things; it's how St. Petersburg was made, it's how it gains independance from the Golden Horde and expanded, it's how the nationw as industrialized....

And about Stalin, yes he was a totalitarian extremist, but he wasn't stupid. If he was stupid he would have invaded Europe in 1953 after the nuclear tests.

He did have plans to invade Western Europe justa few years after his death, you know.

Yeah but has any other Russian leader or any leader in THE WORLD caused 20,000,000 or more deaths in his own country? I'm not arguing with you, I agree with most of your ideas. I just don't see a nuclear war happening unless like you said, if any Supremacist ruler comes along. And I don't think Putin wants to stop being the president so he will use any means to stay in power.

[altanese-mistress]

At 6/13/07 05:57 PM, TheBasics wrote: Yeah but has any other Russian leader or any leader in THE WORLD caused 20,000,000 or more deaths in his own country?

Mao Zedong killed more people than Hitler and Stalin COMBINED. But unlike Stalin, he is loathed by the current government and nearly completly forgotten.

And I don't think Putin wants to stop being the president so he will use any means to stay in power.

The point is that 'any means' for him is very limited. Realistically, there is no way he can stay in power.

[TheBasics]

At 6/13/07 06:08 PM, altanese-mistress wrote:

At 6/13/07 05:57 PM, TheBasics wrote: Yeah but has any other Russian leader or any leader in THE WORLD caused 20,000,000 or more deaths in his own country?

Mao Zedong killed more people than Hitler and Stalin COMBINED. But unlike Stalin, he is loathed by the current government and nearly completly forgotten.

And I don't think Putin wants to stop being the president so he will use any means to stay in power.

The point is that 'any means' for him is very limited. Realistically, there is no way he can stay in power.

Mao only killed more people than Stalin if you count the crop failures that caused tens of millions of people to starve to death. However crop failures aren't a form of extermination its not like the government goes "hmmm this year is a nice year for a crop failure LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR". And I'm not trying to say he didn't kill many people, he did even more than hitler but no more than Stalin if your talking about just exterminations by execution, destruction of entire towns a villages merely of the fear that the people there do not support the government. As for Putin, how can you be so sure that the whole country is not run by the KGB, that is not easy information to digest but its not out of question that it may be possible.

[altanese-mistress]

At 6/13/07 06:18 PM, TheBasics wrote: Mao only killed more people than Stalin if you count the crop failures that caused tens of millions of people to starve to death.

Well then we also have to discount the deaths by starvation such as the Ukranian famine.

As for Putin, how can you be so sure that the whole country is not run by the KGB, that is not easy information to digest but its not out of question that it may be possible.

Because the KGB hasn't existed for over a decade?

[SmilezRoyale]

i want russia to liberate the united states from american rule, my money is inherintly the governments and people just dont seem to get that.

I dont think that anyone has the idiocy of desciding to launch a nuclear weapon, one shot and it's enough to destroy human life on earth; your probably thinking; nukes arn't that powerfull; but what happens when one country launches a missile at another country, eh?

a few rebounds and it's over, we'll take a 1 million year nap and another intelligent being will roam the earth, most likely an insect; which is wierd when you think about it.

no i'm not being serious.

[katana-klan]

I heard Russia is heavily struck by the HIV / AIDS virus (I think Russia is the 3rd most infected nation or Earth, or so). That fact might limit "Russian supremacy" somewhat. Without any wars, thus far.

[TheBasics]

At 6/13/07 08:46 PM, Gul-Dukat-DS9 wrote: Well, even if the KGB isn't around, it probably has a spin off, with another name, but probably just as effective, if not more, than the original KGB. During the original Cold War, the KGB probably had movement limitations (well, what I say it probably was harder to go to places) than now. Now the world is a much more open place, and there is also the Internet, so a secret intelligence service is probably more effective now.

Sorry if I sound like an ass and don't provide links, but Putin is just not simply leaving Russian presidency like that. He is too strong, and during the last presidential election, "weird shit" happened to all of his political competitor (I think one was arrested and the other died from heart attack, or some crap of the kind).

Putin is one of the many new leaders around the world that has been pulling a democratic charade when in reality there is no democracy (no real one, anyways).

If Putin gets replaced, probabaly the new leader is even more hardass and no less of a danger.

I agree, the so called democracy he is running is just a show so the western powers get off his case. Putin's rule will clearly become more and more of a dictatorship as the time goes by and as he gains more power.

[Dr-Worm]

At 6/13/07 06:18 PM, TheBasics wrote: And I'm not trying to say he didn't kill many people, he did even more than hitler but no more than Stalin if your talking about just exterminations by execution, destruction of entire towns a villages merely of the fear that the people there do not support the government.

Gather round kiddies, let's settle this thing once and for all. The top three bloodiest dictators of the 20th century are as follows

1. Joseph Stalin
2. Mao Zedong
3. Adolf Hitler

BUT, that's only in mere numbers, because you must take into account that not every country has as massive a population as a Russia or a China. So, when you take the amount killed proportional to the total population of the country, the worst dictator is actually none of those three:

It's Pol Pot in Cambodia. He killed 1.5 million people, which was roughly 1/3 of the population at the time (I think).

Anywho, just clearing the mini-issue up so we can get back to the real deal: impending nuclear war. What I don't get is, what are we so worried about? Isn't this what our missile defense systems are for? Or are nukes impervious to this?

[JakeHero]

I think we can all agree that Putin is an asshole.

[Cheekyvincent]

who's puntin?