Gays and Christians should unite

[WaldenPunk]

"You would think that homosexuals and Christians would be natural allies. I mean, who better not to have abortions than homosexuals! Im just looking for some consistency here."

-George Carlin

[bumcheekcity]

Nice post, but most gays are very liberal and pro-abortion. You forget that.

[Ted-Easton]

Not that they really need abortions...

[bumcheekcity]

At 5/30/03 07:22 AM, Ted_Easton wrote: Not that they really need abortions...

Yer, but you know, they have no objections to the ladies that want them.

[House-Of-Leaves]

First, Carlin's a funny man. :)

Second, I'm very much a Christian.

I'm also bisexual, with many, many gay friends.

If you look in larger cities, there are many churches that accept homosexuals, even marry them, because they go by the Christ-like ideal: hate the sin not the sinner.

Whether or not I'm sinning, I don't know. I'm not a follower of the bible, I'm a follower of the belief that all a person needs is to know that Jesus is God. The bible, all doctrines...everything else was simply written and translated by fallible man. I don't trust that.

I trust God. And I trust my heart. My heart tells me that some of the most beautiful people in the world have been the gay men and women in my life, and I will not turn my back on them, or myself, because I'm afraid. I'm not here to judge, that's not my job.

After all, every sin is equal in God's eyes. So while they may be sinning, so am I. I'm sleeping with my boyfriend out of wedlock. Uh oh. lol

I'm human, I can't be perfect. So I try to be the best I can without trying to be something I'm not. I suppose the whole point of this post is to say that there's more Christians out here that are gay-friendly than you think.

[cannibal7878]

At 5/30/03 08:26 AM, House_Of_Leaves wrote: First, Carlin's a funny man. :)

Second, I'm very much a Christian.

I'm also bisexual, with many, many gay friends.

Hmmm...seems to me that you contradict yourself right there...Christ said, you can't serve to masters. How can you be gay oh sory bi and still be a Christian? Paul mentioned in Romans Romans 1:1-32...he mentions here about homosexual people...never does it say in the Bible about being a Christian, and being homosexual...if you are goona brag about being a Christian, I wouldn't mention about being bi...you are just gonna turn people off, and make them gag when you mention Christ.

[bumcheekcity]

At 5/30/03 09:31 AM, cannibal7878 wrote: Hmmm...seems to me that you contradict yourself right there...Christ said, you can't serve to masters. How can you be gay oh sory bi and still be a Christian? Paul mentioned in Romans Romans 1:1-32...he mentions here about homosexual people...never does it say in the Bible about being a Christian, and being homosexual...if you are goona brag about being a Christian, I wouldn't mention about being bi...you are just gonna turn people off, and make them gag when you mention Christ.

Jesus said love the sinner, hate the sin. She can sin and be a christian. Although, I don't regard homosexuality as a sin. To be a Christian you have to accept the teachings of Christ, who among other things, taught us to kill any man who worked on a Sunday or cheated on his wife.

[bumcheekcity]

So, Cannibal, there are three men.

One is gay, holds a respectable job, donates regularly to charities and is a Christian.

One is a christian and an alchoholic, who sometimes beats his wife when drunk.

One is a muslim, holds a respectable job and is in the County Male Voice choir.

Which of these men are sinners, and where does each one go when he dies?

[Freakapotimus]

cannibal, how ignorant can you be? *sigh*

There are plenty of Christian communities that accept queer folk. Some churches marry them, some allow them if they are not partnered... it depends. But saying that being bi contradicts being Christian? Oh come on. I am bisexual, and I know a lot of gay/les/bi people who are Christian, Jewish, pagan, Buddhist, etc. There was a session at a convention I went to about sexuality and spirituality, two aspects of a person's life that can be very intertwined.

[JMHX]

Well, we all know how relevant Cannibal is on subjects that actually require more than sabre rattling. The problem is just that: too many Christians only choose to not accept homosexuals because they don't have the mind to think for themselves. They'd rather be told how to think and happily go along with it.

God is the creator, he made us in his image, he created the homosexuals, then is there a possibility that he was gay?

Besides, a whole lot of religious people will interpret their holy text in a way that justifies their prejudices. So saying that homosexuals and christians should befreidn one another is like saying that Al-Quaeda members should date george e. bush's daughters. It could happen but not right now, maybe in a few decades.

[House-Of-Leaves]

At 5/30/03 09:56 AM, bumcheekycity wrote:

Jesus said love the sinner, hate the sin. She can sin and be a christian. Although, I don't regard homosexuality as a sin. To be a Christian you have to accept the teachings of Christ, who among other things, taught us to kill any man who worked on a Sunday or cheated on his wife.

I'm going to ignore cannibal, y'see. I have neither the time nor the inclination to debate with someone like that.

Now! BCC. :) I don't honestly think Christ taught that lesson, though it may be biblical. I'd like to see the passage, if you can, where Christ Himeself said that. If it was old testament, it wasn't Christ. If it was an apostle that said it, it wasn't Christ.

One issue with the bible is the translation and the men who wrote it. I can't be assured that there isn't a mistake. But I do know that if the stories are even partly true, that Jesus was friends with thieves and prostitutes...so I doubt that He would sentence a man to death for working on Sunday.

My biggest issue with the Good Book, however, is that cultures and customs and times change, and the book does not. In the same Old Testament, where a man could be stoned to death for working on a Sunday, it was also deadly to have a 'graven image'. That is, a picture of any sort. It was considered a false idol. Nowadays, though...we have photos EVERYWHERE, literally. Does that mean we should be stoned to death?

Nah, it just means that times and customs change. The problem with the Bible is that while the fundamentals are the same (peace, hope, love, and salvation), the details change with passing years. It's impossible to live by a book that's so old when the times are so new.

Plus...well. It's impossible to be Christ-like, period. If I were like Christ, I'd not NEED Him.

It all boils down to 'hate the sin, love the sinner'. Sin is very personal to each person. Some believe drinking alcohol is a sin. Others drink occasionally, and I'm sure they'll still get to heaven. I don't think homosexuality is a sin, perse. It might be. I have no clue, I'm not God.

I'm gonna stop babbling now. :D

[arnamenta]

You know, there's no proof that in Biblical times there was even a concept of "homosexuality"? If you follow various translations of the Bible back, you'll find the that passages today that talk about homosexuality being a sin spoke of very different things once upon a time.

Plus, I've read, if you look at the Aramaic language (the langauge Jesus probably did most of his speeches in), there's no concepts of "good" and "evil" as there are today. Jesus probably spoke instead of the "ripe" and "unripe," or those who are ready and those who aren't.

That puts a whole new spin on things, doesn't it? It's why I can love Jesus and hate the way so many Christians choose to believe in him.

[nitroxide]

House i respect what your saying its a beautiful thing to accept gays and lesbians as equals,I believe bisexualism is a beautiful thing and you go head im all for it.

Now as for your religion i agree with cannibal,not in the sense of that your religion contradicts your self,but that why would you even want to be associated with it.There are christian communities that accept gays/lesbians but that is only out of personal belief.Personal beliefs are ammendements made up by oneself when they disagree or want to alter there established religion.Just like when the church seperated into catholism/christianity little feeble diffrences separated the structure of it all.They altered their beliefs.Their are 2 churches:
1-the Church of Laws
2-the Church of Love
I write in in the order of power.
Will god accept the church of love,that disobeyed him.
Or the Church of Law that followed his word till the end above all else.

In that first paragraph, the Catechism says the following: "Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that 'homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.'" As is stated there, under no circumstances can they be approved.

Now i dont agree that gay is wrong.
"If you say someone is disordered, that means there is something wrong with that person at the root of their being. I can't believe God would make someone who is wrong from the very beginning."

-Most Rev. Thomas Gumbleton, auxiliary bishop of Detroit

Yet you being apart of that religion is sad because you arent really accepted,whose to say god isnt gay but they say it isnt right and thats what you belong to.They dont accept gays as they dint accept blacks a hundred years ago.

[nitroxide]

At 5/30/03 11:44 AM, arnamenta wrote: You know, there's no proof that in Biblical times there was even a concept of "homosexuality"? If you follow various translations of the Bible back, you'll find the that passages today that talk about homosexuality being a sin spoke of very different things once upon a time.

From the Christian Scriptures, It refers to a unknown form of behavior. The meaning of the original Greek phrase has been lost. Bible interpreters have assigned various meanings to the term in the past two millennia. Originally it was believed to indicate a lack of ethics. Later it was believed to refer to masturbation. Among many conservative Protestants, it refers to homosexuality. To our knowledge, no Christian group today interprets the passage as referring to masturbation,so it must mean an act of homosexuality.

Plus, I've read, if you look at the Aramaic language (the langauge Jesus probably did most of his speeches in), there's no concepts of "good" and "evil" as there are today. Jesus probably spoke instead of the "ripe" and "unripe," or those who are ready and those who aren't.

Very true,it couldve been if people were ready to take the red pill or blue pill.Sorry to many matrix flash on NG couldnt think of a better possibility.

::Pops Red pill::

unknown form of behavior

[bumcheekcity]

At 5/30/03 11:23 AM, House_Of_Leaves wrote:

At 5/30/03 09:56 AM, bumcheekycity wrote: Jesus said love the sinner, hate the sin. She can sin and be a christian. Although, I don't regard homosexuality as a sin. To be a Christian you have to accept the teachings of Christ, who among other things, taught us to kill any man who worked on a Sunday or cheated on his wife.

Now! BCC. :) I don't honestly think Christ taught that lesson, though it may be biblical. I'd like to see the passage, if you can, where Christ Himeself said that. If it was old testament, it wasn't Christ. If it was an apostle that said it, it wasn't Christ.

Christ never said "Thou canst killeth a man if he worketh on a Sunday[eth] directly, but he did say a few things.

1) Those that do not follow Gods 10 commandments are Heathen (or something unreligious)
2) Heathen should be 'purified'
3) I don't know this one, but death was sometimes referred to as pure in the scriptures wrote in 100AD as you went directly to heaven.

You can see where we now get some copies of the bible which claim Christ said you could kill a man that worked on a Sunday, as that was a holy day and you were supposed to spend it doing holy stuff.

Don't ask me, I'm not a Christian. I do believe that Jesus never meant to say and certainly didn't believe men should be killed if they worked on a Sunday. My post was slightly badly worded, I was making the point that anyone can twist the Bible to mean anytyhing and over 2000 years it has got very poorly translated.

[cannibal7878]

I do believe that Jesus never meant to say and certainly didn't believe men should be killed if they worked on a Sunday. My post was slightly badly worded, I was making the point that anyone can twist the Bible to mean anytyhing and over 2000 years it has got very poorly translated.

Yeah, what is the topic here? OH yeah, gays and Christians should unite...let's A. Keep on topic here. B. Realize how contradictory that is. C. Homosexuality is a sin. D. Sinner's don't go to Heaven.

[FUNKbrs]

1 In the Bible, Jesus always got in trouble for working on the Sabath. Stealing corn, healing people, stealing a donkey, etc. If you read the Bible closely, you'll find Jesus was always taking stuff and claiming "His Father needed it". Jesus kicks ass.

2 According to Christian theology, everyone goes to hell because of original sin (Adam and Eve). Therefore going to Heaven is about getting forgiven and establishing a personal covenant with God, not about whether or not you sin. There will be as many gays in Heaven as drunks, whores, liars, and Catholics.

3 the Bible says "Judge not, lest ye be judged", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", and "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord". Basically it's not my or any other person's job to decide whether or not a person is good or bad, or to punish for sin. That's God's job. I can punish you for breaking man's law, but not in God's name. This is the main reason all Catholics are going straight to Hell.

In essence, yes, christians and gays should get along just fine in principal.

[cannibal7878]

In essence, yes, christians and gays should get along just fine in principal.

Give me a break funk...you don't actually beLIEve that do you? Damn...you do as those around you...

[FUNKbrs]

At 5/31/03 12:16 AM, cannibal7878 wrote: Give me a break funk...you don't actually beLIEve that do you? Damn...you do as those around you...

the Bible talks a lot more about drunkeness being bad than homosexuality. If I can't be an asshole to drunks biblicly, then I can do the same to gays. I might not be able to change your mind, Cannibal, but the Bible is pretty clear "Hate the sin, not the sinner" (not a biblical quote). You might be disgusted by homosexuality, but the Bible does not justify hating homosexual people.

[mrpopenfresh]

I think something that could tell us if gays could allie with christians is the new amazing race season. Theres the married gay couple, and then theres the christians that have been dating for twelve years and are still virgins(its even in the damm description!). But still, I really really really doubt that those two teams are going to like each other. But hey, who knows?

[cannibal7878]

But the Bible does not justify hating homosexual people.

I am not trying to justify hating "homos" Biblically. I am just stating my rather unpopular belief...Gays should not remain with Christians...

[nitroxide]

At 5/31/03 12:11 AM, FUNKbrs wrote: 1 In the Bible, Jesus always got in trouble for working on the Sabath. Stealing corn, healing people, stealing a donkey, etc. If you read the Bible closely, you'll find Jesus was always taking stuff and claiming "His Father needed it". Jesus kicks ass.

Yeah! i read that jesus was a horse thief and when he told one of his disciples to go and take one he said,Take it and make sure noone sees you but if they do see you tell them the lord commands it....lol.

2 According to Christian theology, everyone goes to hell because of original sin (Adam and Eve). Therefore going to Heaven is about getting forgiven and establishing a personal covenant with God, not about whether or not you sin. There will be as many gays in Heaven as drunks, whores, liars, and Catholics.

No funk everyone doesnt go to hell(adam and eve)they are born with sin because of this.Well ofcourse there gonna be as many drunks,whores,liars as cathoilics,this religion allows forgiveness as long as after repent these acts are never commited again.So ill be a drunk all my life and at the last second ill make mends with god...lol...sweet hipocracy.

3 the Bible says "Judge not, lest ye be judged", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", and "Vengeance is Mine, saith the Lord". Basically it's not my or any other person's job to decide whether or not a person is good or bad, or to punish for sin. That's God's job. I can punish you for breaking man's law, but not in God's name. This is the main reason all Catholics are going straight to Hell.

The bible is man written and completely mistakened.Thats right its only gods job to judge,yet religion has changed and intertwined personal beliefs into religion it is a joke and since i cant know the true word of god i wont follow.

In essence, yes, christians and gays should get along just fine in principal.

Ok lets say the kkk had started for good intentional purposes,yet the whole idealism changed.Would you stick by them,even knowing what they stand for now.

If i were gay i would never accept that religion,im not saying that communities dont accept gays but the majority of catholic/christians dont.I dont care there is no god.

All HAIL SAINT DAG!!!

[isthatlegal]

Y gays and christians, y not gays an people in general, i dont c y ppl think they r so different, just cos they go with th e smae sex, its pathetic that people descriminate against them, the only ppl that dont like gays are mainly gay themselves, thats not all tho, some are just wierd

[antiqkk]

At 5/31/03 01:36 PM, isthatlegal wrote: Y gays and christians, y not gays an people in general, i dont c y ppl think they r so different, just cos they go with th e smae sex, its pathetic that people descriminate against them, the only ppl that dont like gays are mainly gay themselves, thats not all tho, some are just wierd

Emm but if gays don't like gays and they are being weird this may be the reason because people discriminate them. Because they do not like the thing that God has sent them to do on Earth and they act weird, until at one point in their life they rape some other man or something. I live in the UK and in my town like a month or so ago, some dude got raped in a little park during the day, where children usually play, by some 50 year old fag (the victim was 35 or so). The attacker asked him for sex, while the poor guy was waling past and when the victims refused, the rapist smacked him on the head and did his business. Disturbing.

[House-Of-Leaves]

Okay, there's so much I want to respond to that I can't quote it all! So...

First, to armamenta (sp?), you put perfectly what I generally stay away from, because most people just don't understand. It's basically what I was saying with the 'customs change' comment I've made, because that's exactly it.

For example, did you know that it was basically forbidden (tho not technically a sin) to shake hands the way we do nowadays? They used their right hands to clean their...uh...well. To wipe after defecating. It was considered 'unclean'...so I might be wrong. It very well MAY have been a sin. They shook with their left hands, and always grasped each other's forearms.

Thank you, armamenta, for putting that so well. :)

To FUNK! YOU rock! LOL. It's so true, Jesus was always getting in trouble for doing things that were 'sins', and yet...He understood that they really weren't against God. They were FOR God, He said so himself. Jesus was a rebel, man!

Okay, lastly...I can't remember what ...hmm. BCC, maybe? You were talking about being punished because they worked on sunday, which was considered a sin, and that it might have included stoning (or something similar)

Jesus didn't condone stoning. In fact, one of the most popular stories in the bible has to do with passing judgement. A woman was to be stoned. He stepped forward, picked up a stone, and said, "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." No one did.

Actually, come to think of it, I believe you used the word 'purified', BCC. :) Sure, Jesus believed we should all be purified so we were worthy of heaven. He worked His ass off toward that end. S'why He died, too. So we don't have to.

(DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to convert anyone! I'm just stating what I believe.)

[House-Of-Leaves]

Sorry for the double post.

Somewhere in Funk's post, I somehow missed the quote about throwing stones. LOL. Wanted to appologize for repeating that.

Also, I wanted to comment on the 'covenant with God' part of Funk's post. It's just as true as it gets. We as humans can never NOT sin. It's just that simple. That's why a Saviour was needed. So we didn't have to attain the impossible.

[antiqkk]

At 5/31/03 02:25 PM, House_Of_Leaves wrote: Jesus didn't condone stoning. In fact, one of the most popular stories in the bible has to do with passing judgement. A woman was to be stoned.

Jesus was a right stoner from what I can tell. He spent his whole week stealing donkeys and other memorabilia in the name of God, only to rest on Sunday, stone people, as well as get stoned himself. No wonder, he was to work on monday stealing more and more farm animals under the influence. By the age of 33 his brain cells withered away from all the stoning that went on, his mind created an imaginary friend, whom him believed to be God and his father (thus he denied his own real biological father).

Note that in the Bible not much is said of his teenage years. He must have become a fan of stoning after college or something. That is when all the weird dreams started coming to him. After every subsequent session of getting stoned in the streets with the 12 of his followers, he began talking gibberish anywhere and everywhere he went.

The nightmare only stopped when Judas reported Jesus's favourite past time activity to the police. Being a drug dealer as well as a chronic stoner himself (Jesus encouraged all people without sin to get stoned), the court ordered his immediate execution (the laws were a bit harsh back in those times). And Jesus died.

Three days after the burial, some of his totally-stoned companions witnessed him rise to the sky. Weed must have been of excptional quality back then to bring around such hallucinations.

[House-Of-Leaves]

At 5/31/03 03:32 PM, antiqkk wrote: Note that in the Bible not much is said of his teenage years.

LOL, first, your post made me giggle.

About what I quoted, though. One of the funniest books I've ever read was "Lamb: the gospel according to Biff, Christ's childhood pal", and it was about that exactly.

In the bible, we see Christ's birth, we hear of him speaking/debating in the temple when he was...I can't remember. 10? 12? Then all of a sudden he's 30, and we hear of the last few years of his life.

"Lamb", writted by Christopher Moore, would probably be considered blasphemous by some of the more strict Christians about, but I LOVED IT! It told a fictional tale of Christ and Biff (nick name, his real name was Levi) and how they grew up. It was great. I highly recommend it. :)

Jesus punches Biff more than a few times. ;)

[antiqkk]

At 5/31/03 03:56 PM, House_Of_Leaves wrote:

In the bible, we see Christ's birth, we hear of him speaking/debating in the temple when he was...I can't remember. 10? 12? Then all of a sudden he's 30, and we hear of the last few years of his life.

"Lamb", writted by Christopher Moore, would probably be considered blasphemous by some of the more strict Christians about, but I LOVED IT! It told a fictional tale of Christ and Biff (nick name, his real name was Levi) and how they grew up. It was great. I highly recommend it. :)

Jesus punches Biff more than a few times. ;)

I could then presume and make a rough statement here (as I have not actually read this document yet), that this book is some sort of a top secret file on Jesus' childhood years, kept hidden by the church for a long time and then accidentally slipping into the hands of mass media after 2000 thousands years of confusion.
I can understand why the church would want to keep this document from reaching the public eye, as it would surely prove my theory of Jesus being a stoner and a lunatic.
First of all, before I assumed that he became a stoner after college, but if this book is based on solid facts that would mean that Jesus actually started abusing harmful substances in the earlier years (thus the reason to punch his friends, who did not want to get stoned with him). It now even makes more sense, that Jesus arrived to his manhood as a complete drug addict, with vivid halluciantions and a distorted mind, stealing donkeys to make a living (drugs must have cost some hard cash back then as well and Jesus earned the cash by selling the stolen donkeys at the black markets to Albanians). By the age of 30 Jesus had a steady belief of being God, or more specifically his son. Under the influence of all the drugs he tried over the years (glue, marijuana, crack, heroin, morphine, LSD, shrooms, gas, ecstasy; etc etc and so on and so on), Jesus' has gone completely insane, if you can put it this way.
It is totally logical that church would want to hide the true facts of his teenage years, as this would give a logical explanation on Jesus's words later on, thus bringing the whole Christian religion into a new light. The whole concept of Godliness would be changed into some form of low-life drug abuse and illusions, which had nothing miraculous about them.