05/29: 9/11 memorial, controversy

[Freakapotimus]

9/11 memorial spurs new controversy
N.Y.C. firefighters want special recognition
ASSOCIATED PRESS

NEW YORK, May 28 - Hundreds of firefighters rallied near ground zero Wednesday to demand that Gov. George Pataki give special recognition to uniformed officers in a memorial to victims of the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center.

"THEY ASK me the difference between my brother and other people who died that day (Sept. 11)," said John Mascali, whose firefighter brother, Joseph, died in the attack. "Other people lost their lives. My brother gave his life."

Full story at http://www.msnbc.com/news/919358.asp

[nitroxide]

I really have a problem with law enforcement but when it comes to firefighters i dont look at them any other way but great heroes,alot of people forget that they just dont give their life it is a job and they recieve pay and benefits for their services.Still 9-11 was a huge blow especially to the FDNY and they should recieve a memorial,still let that money go to keeping the fire departments open,after 9-11 NY is closing down about a dozen stations.How is this in any way smart after what happened?

[bumcheekcity]

I don't think we should have a memorial. A memorial would be impractical and expensive. I think the firefighters should get a boost of cash and a pay increase, but they were goin well over the call of duty and I highly respect that.

[House-Of-Leaves]

It's funny...I understand the meaning behind a memorial, but I can't help but think that the money could go to something more useful.

First, a response to the 'give their life' thing. Yes, they gave their lives. Lord help me, I forgot already who said they didn't give their lives because "it's their job". lol

My point is about that, though...yes. It's their job. A job they hold of their own free will. If they saw the danger and got scared, they could have easily said, "Sorry, I quit. I'm not going to leave my family behind." But they didn't. Even those that were off duty came to help.

Now, that being said...9/11 was a tragedy. But a memorial is just going to suck more funds away from other areas that need it very badly. I'm STILL irked with the two beams of light where the trade center used to be. How much freakin' electricity does that use?? When California was having rolling blackouts, NYC was remembering an unforgetable tragedy with precious electricity. Baffles me.

[TheShrike]

At 5/29/03 11:48 AM, bumcheekycity wrote: I don't think we should have a memorial

There is no "We", Brit.

Yeah. I Said it. =p

Seriously, though, memorials have a special place. They are needed to commemorate, to remind and to pay tribute.

I don't think there should be a separate memorial for the cops and firefighters. If they want one, they can raise funds for it, butthe use of tax dollars for it kind of upsets me. Why? Because it's like saying they're more important than everyone else who died. They weren't the only people who tried to help. They merely did their duty. How does that make them any different than the janitor downstairs?

I respect the police and firefighters. But if they want to be distinguished, if they want to be separate, let them do so with their personal money.

[fantom326]

although i totally respect the firefighters for running into those towers, i dont think they should get a special memorial for it. theyve had enough publicity and praise for it already, and what makes them any different than the rest of the victims? oh, sorry, "they gave their lives." well, it was their choice.

anyway, how are they heroic if they blindly ran into a building when they had no idea what was going to happen? none of them knew, when going into those towers, that the planes were going to crash. if they did, im sure 1/4, at most, of them would have actually gone in. it doesn't make them heroic, it just makes them uninformed. they should be mourned just like all the other victims with a memorial for, just that, ALL THE VICTIMS. we need to stop dragging this thing on anyway. the more we try to milk the sympathy of the public, the more we are turning our eyes away from other issues. what about world hunger, and the fucking economy??? lets mourn that for once.

[Dewbs789]

Yea the firfighters were bave and all but don't think they need a freakin special memorial, instead the money shuld be spnt keeping some of those firehouses that are slated t close open.

[Commander-K25]

At 5/31/03 01:22 AM, fantom326 wrote:
anyway, how are they heroic if they blindly ran into a building when they had no idea what was going to happen? none of them knew, when going into those towers, that the planes were going to crash.

Umm, let me get this straight, you're saying that they went in before the planes hit? Excuse me, but I think they went in afterwards.

And about not knowing what could happen, I think they knew very well what could happen. You have a massive highrise fire, already an extremely dangerous situation. You know it's been caused by an airplane impact which means the structure is weakened and the building is likely to be unstable. They knew this going in and they went in anyway.

Many stayed right up to, and past, the end when the towers began to fall. I remember hearing an account of one firefighter who began to descend the stairwell just a little before the fall of the tower and his partner decided to stay in and search for just one more person before heading out.

That firefighter never made it out.

[arnamenta]

A lot of people from countries other than the US were in those towers, so it *is* a "we" with lots of people. And is it REALLY so horrible if someone not directly affected mourns this? It's no different than most Americans.

[fantom326]

At 5/31/03 01:45 AM, Commander-K25 wrote:

Umm, let me get this straight, you're saying that they went in before the planes hit? Excuse me, but I think they went in afterwards.

no, thats not what im saying. werent you watching the news? the firefighters were sent in not knowing the buildings would collapse. they just thought they would put out the fire, rescue some survivors, and get the hell out. and i dont belive the first batch sent in knew the second plane was going to hit, seing as they were inside a bunch of fucking rubble.

And about not knowing what could happen, I think they knew very well what could happen. You have a massive highrise fire, already an extremely dangerous situation. You know it's been caused by an airplane impact which means the structure is weakened and the building is likely to be unstable. They knew this going in and they went in anyway.

yes, a highrise fire, just like any other building fire. the only difference here was the building was a lot bigger. maybe the chief knew it was very dangerous, but he sent them in anyway, probably because they thought bombs were planted initially before they actually went in. ho hum.

Many stayed right up to, and past, the end when the towers began to fall. I remember hearing an account of one firefighter who began to descend the stairwell just a little before the fall of the tower and his partner decided to stay in and search for just one more person before heading out.

That firefighter never made it out.

yes, the classic, "he never made it out" story. this was after everything had happened, they were doomed immediately after they made the decision not evacuate early enough. it was a bad, bad mistake, but its over, and we have to learn from our mistakes instead of milking them foir all theyre worth. im not trying to be insensitive, but this is ridiculous.

[AbstractVagabond]

At 5/31/03 01:45 AM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 5/31/03 01:22 AM, fantom326 wrote:
anyway, how are they heroic if they blindly ran into a building when they had no idea what was going to happen? none of them knew, when going into those towers, that the planes were going to crash.

Umm, let me get this straight, you're saying that they went in before the planes hit? Excuse me, but I think they went in afterwards.

I was about to say. I never heard of a psychic firefighter before. Are they heroes? Or were they just doing their job? The way I see it, the firefighter's job is being a hero. In other words, to call a firefighter a hero is redundant.

Should they have their own memorial? If it can be afforded, why not? But, if it's a choice between keeping some stations open and having a memorial, I'd chose keeping stations open. To build a memorial under that kind of condition is like saluting them before pissing on them behind their backs.

[TheShrike]

At 5/31/03 02:36 AM, arnamenta wrote: A lot of people from countries other than the US were in those towers, so it *is* a "we" with lots of people.

I realize this... read further...

And is it REALLY so horrible if someone not directly affected mourns this?

Bum's not mourning it, and opposes any memorial. Since he's in Britain, and has no direct relationship with the events, either through nationality or otherwise, I don't think his opinion about having no memorial even counts. I know my opinions don't have much sway in reality, but at least I have family who lives in NY, and I live in DC. So that's why I said what I did. Besides, it was a lighthearted comment to begin with. Notice the aweful emoticon: =p

[nitroxide]

At 5/31/03 11:24 AM, TheShrike wrote:

At 5/31/03 02:36 AM, arnamenta wrote:

Bum's not mourning it, and opposes any memorial. Since he's in Britain, and has no direct relationship with the events, either through nationality or otherwise, I don't think his opinion about having no memorial even counts. I know my opinions don't have much sway in reality, but at least I have family who lives in NY, and I live in DC. So that's why I said what I did. Besides, it was a lighthearted comment to begin with. Notice the aweful emoticon: =p

I agree shrike,but i live in NY and there more worried about a freaking memorial thans using that money to keep the dozens of firehouses from closing.They do deserve one,but priority first.

[Commander-K25]

At 5/31/03 02:50 AM, fantom326 wrote:
no, thats not what im saying. werent you watching the news? the firefighters were sent in not knowing the buildings would collapse. they just thought they would put out the fire, rescue some survivors, and get the hell out. and i dont belive the first batch sent in knew the second plane was going to hit, seing as they were inside a bunch of fucking rubble.

Yes, but you said they went in not knowing that the planes would crash. In fact, they went in after the first plane had hit and many more after the second. The planes created the incident, not the other way around.

yes, a highrise fire, just like any other building fire....ho hum.

So you're saying that risking your life in a highrise fire isn't anything extraordinary? Just another "day on the job"?

[fantom326]

At 5/31/03 03:03 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 5/31/03 02:50 AM, fantom326 wrote:
no, thats not what im saying. werent you watching the news? the firefighters were sent in not knowing the buildings would collapse. they just thought they would put out the fire, rescue some survivors, and get the hell out. and i dont belive the first batch sent in knew the second plane was going to hit, seing as they were inside a bunch of fucking rubble.

Yes, but you said they went in not knowing that the planes would crash. In fact, they went in after the first plane had hit and many more after the second. The planes created the incident, not the other way around.

oh yeh, i realize that now. sorry.

yes, a highrise fire, just like any other building fire....ho hum.

So you're saying that risking your life in a highrise fire isn't anything extraordinary? Just another "day on the job"?

it is extraordinary. but they do it all the time. so for them, it is just another day on the job. should we have a memorial every day that a firefighter dies in a fucking high rise? it wouldnt make sense. we should feel sorry, and mourn them with everybody else that died. theyre just normal people like everybody else.

[Commander-K25]

At 5/31/03 05:48 PM, fantom326 wrote: it is extraordinary. but they do it all the time. so for them, it is just another day on the job. should we have a memorial every day that a firefighter dies in a fucking high rise? it wouldnt make sense. we should feel sorry, and mourn them with everybody else that died. theyre just normal people like everybody else.

An ordinary day is a house fire, or a burning store, not a raging inferno of 80+ stories.

And if we apply this logic to other similar situations, we can see it is an attempt to cheapen the value of brave actions. Let's say soldier gives his life to save a wounded comrade. Are you saying that he doesn't deserve any recognition because it was "just his job"?

Another example, in northern France in 1944, a single U.S. soldier held off 100 Germans during the night with a single machine gun. He received the Medal of Honor for his heroism and his refusal to abondon his post although isolated and alone. One could say he is a hero and deserves this honor. But, by your logic he was "just doing his job" and deserves nothing because he really didn't do anything special.

[antiqkk]

At 5/31/03 06:11 PM, Commander-K25 wrote: Another example, in northern France in 1944, a single U.S. soldier held off 100 Germans during the night with a single machine gun. He received the Medal of Honor for his heroism and his refusal to abondon his post although isolated and alone. One could say he is a hero and deserves this honor. But, by your logic he was "just doing his job" and deserves nothing because he really didn't do anything special.

Every person who dedicates his life in one way or another to saving people's lives is a hero. Be it a firefighter or a soldier. It can of course be argued that soldiers don't always serve the right purpose, simply following commands, killing many innocent people. However, I am stressing the fact that those who give their life trying to save someone else is a heroic individual. You would not find many people willing to run into the raging flames to save people they don't even personally know or standing up against 100 Nazis alone, as in Commander's example. My late grandmother was 15 when the war reacher her village and she had a gun in her hands shooting the invaders along with some volunteer soldiers in the forest. It wasn't even her job and yet she stood up for what she had believed.
People like that definately deserve credit for what they do and not merely be dismissed with the remark of simply "doing their job".

[fantom326]

At 5/31/03 06:11 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 5/31/03 05:48 PM, fantom326 wrote:

An ordinary day is a house fire, or a burning store, not a raging inferno of 80+ stories.

either way, its their job.

And if we apply this logic to other similar situations, we can see it is an attempt to cheapen the value of brave actions. Let's say soldier gives his life to save a wounded comrade. Are you saying that he doesn't deserve any recognition because it was "just his job"?

once again youve misconstrued what ive said. first of all, im not saying he doesnt deserve any recognition, if i was then id just be an asshole. im saying theyve gotten enough recognition already, with all the tv shows, fdny t shirts, and crap like that. businesses and networks love to milk this shit for money and ratings. its just another case of exploiting a tragedy, and im starting to get tired of it. a lot of firefighters are assholes, the same goes for policemen. and second of all, they really didnt have any idea what the fuck they were doing anyway. i still dont belive they had any idea those towers were going to collapse, and if hey did, well then they were stupid, overzealous, and misguided, not heroic. a firefighters job is dangerous and risky; im sure they knew that when they signed up for the gig. im not trying to minimize their deaths, but i just really dont think we need another fucking memorial when those tax dollars could to towards something much more worthwile.

Another example, in northern France in 1944, a single U.S. soldier held off 100 Germans during the night with a single machine gun. He received the Medal of Honor for his heroism and his refusal to abondon his post although isolated and alone. One could say he is a hero and deserves this honor. But, by your logic he was "just doing his job" and deserves nothing because he really didn't do anything special.

of course he did something special, hes a fucking soldier for christ sakes, he held off an entire fucking batallion with a gattling gun! but he knew what he doing, and he fouhgt for what he believed in. those poor saps just ran in a building and it sucked that it crumbled on them. that money really should go towards keeping the stations open, the dept deserves that much, and if anything, they should have a section for them in the normal memorial where all the other thousands of victims will be remembered. jeez.

[fantom326]

id like to add something else. people seemed to love giuliani after 9/11 just because he started acting the way a city official is supposed to. he didnt even do anything special, he just did his job. everyone acted like he was god's heaven sent philanthrapist or some shit, he was just being normal because he realized if didnt act decently, everybody would be disgusted because of what had just happened. i mean, why cant we have a normal perspective no matter what happens? man, this countrys going to shit.

[antiqkk]

At 5/31/03 10:23 PM, fantom326 wrote: id like to add something else. people seemed to love giuliani after 9/11 just because he started acting the way a city official is supposed to. he didnt even do anything special, he just did his job. everyone acted like he was god's heaven sent philanthrapist or some shit, he was just being normal because he realized if didnt act decently, everybody would be disgusted because of what had just happened. i mean, why cant we have a normal perspective no matter what happens? man, this countrys going to shit.

Yes, the coutry is, just like many other countries. They may be doing their job heroically (firefighters) but the credit for their heroism is stolen by sleazy politicians and officials who do jack shit, but sit in their office on their well-exercised ass and give orders out.

[Commander-K25]

At 5/31/03 10:18 PM, fantom326 wrote:
they should have a section for them in the normal memorial where all the other thousands of victims will be remembered.

I agree that they should have a section within the normal memorial, not a seperate one. The point I'm trying to make here is that there is a distinction between people that were simply trapped in the buildings and those who voluntarily ran it to try and save them.

[fantom326]

At 6/1/03 12:27 AM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 5/31/03 10:18 PM, fantom326 wrote:
they should have a section for them in the normal memorial where all the other thousands of victims will be remembered.

I agree that they should have a section within the normal memorial, not a seperate one. The point I'm trying to make here is that there is a distinction between people that were simply trapped in the buildings and those who voluntarily ran it to try and save them.

eh, heroic, foolish, uninformed, i guess it all depends on how you see it. who knows what they thought and what they didnt, every one is an individual and it isnt fair to make a generalization anyway.