My View on Free Will

[Alphabit]

Most people tend to think that you either have free will or you don't, that there is no in-between state. Well, personally, I don't believe in us having complete Free Will over our actions. One argument is that people who have mental health issues do not have free will; and I'm a strong believer in that, and the law itself agrees with me (insanity is a valid defense for crime).

That being said, I think that the whole story of free will goes much deeper than that.
I think that we do have some free will, but it is limited. It we had absolute free will; we would be able to levitate in the air, to shoot lightning bolts from our hands and to make things appear out of nowhere, ect... There would be NO limits to possibility; it would be like what some people like to call "heaven."

The fact is that we DO NOT have 100% free will, we are limited to a certain range of actions!
Now, this is a HUGE range of actions... But it's limited nevertheless.

Some people say that our ability to do evil is proof of our free will. Yes, it does increase our free will, but it doesn't stop there... If you look at a regular butterfly; you can safely say that they cannot do evil... At least not on purpose (like getting exploding on a car's windscreen). But they do seem to have free will nevertheless, it's just that it is more restrictive in a way; but in another way, they can fly; and that's something that we can't do (without machines that is).

So yeah, if we had true free will, we should be able to do anything beyond our wildest dreams. So no, we do not have a great deal of free will.

[Ravariel]

To be completely honest, I think this is a purely semantic argument with no real grounding anywhere.

I don't think anyone would arge that our free will is absolute in every way. Be you religious or not, there are always limits to what will can do, be they physical or spiritual.

Now the question you have to ask yourself is this: Is our will able to break the chain of causality? Or for the more spiritual: Is our will free enough to make choices our creator didn't forsee?

[psycho-squirrel]

so your evidence that we dont have 100% free will is that we cant blow things up with our mind and such? i see your point but i think you need more evidence then stuff that might not even be possible even if we had total free will.

how about instincts, emotions, social and cultural influences. these too have a form of controle over us.
our instincts tell us not to touch fire.
our emotions can effect our judgement and have influences in our actions.
the social and cultural influences make us not walk out naked or to make sure to bathe.

[Alphabit]

At 5/22/07 04:15 AM, psycho-squirrel wrote: so your evidence that we dont have 100% free will is that we cant blow things up with our mind and such? i see your point but i think you need more evidence then stuff that might not even be possible even if we had total free will.

how about instincts, emotions, social and cultural influences. these too have a form of controle over us.
our instincts tell us not to touch fire.
our emotions can effect our judgement and have influences in our actions.
the social and cultural influences make us not walk out naked or to make sure to bathe.

Those are very good points. Ultimately, our emotions have full control over us, but we also have some control over our emotions; but this control has boundaries too.

[Boltrig]

At 5/22/07 03:58 AM, Alphabit wrote: Most people tend to think that you either have free will or you don't, that there is no in-between state. Well, personally, I don't believe in us having complete Free Will over our actions. One argument is that people who have mental health issues do not have free will; and I'm a strong believer in that, and the law itself agrees with me (insanity is a valid defense for crime).

Im not sure Id call insanity a lack of free will. Theres more to the insanity plea than " [Insert Deity/Devil/Supernatural force] made me do it"

That being said, I think that the whole story of free will goes much deeper than that.
I think that we do have some free will, but it is limited. It we had absolute free will; we would be able to levitate in the air, to shoot lightning bolts from our hands and to make things appear out of nowhere, ect... There would be NO limits to possibility; it would be like what some people like to call "heaven."

Thats a tricky point right there. This all hinges around your definition of free will. In my book, we have free will - such things as the law of gravity and evolutionary paths do not constitute a restriction of free will.

The fact is that we DO NOT have 100% free will, we are limited to a certain range of actions!
Now, this is a HUGE range of actions... But it's limited nevertheless.

Without going into such nitty gritty as reflex actions, every motion that a human body can do, we can choose to do at any time. Like if i chose to pick up the pen on the desk in front of me, I could. Every bigger achievement is an extention of basic functions.

Some people say that our ability to do evil is proof of our free will. Yes, it does increase our free will, but it doesn't stop there... If you look at a regular butterfly; you can safely say that they cannot do evil... At least not on purpose (like getting exploding on a car's windscreen). But they do seem to have free will nevertheless, it's just that it is more restrictive in a way; but in another way, they can fly; and that's something that we can't do (without machines that is).

Yes, and thats where my earlier comment on evolutionary paths comes in. We didnt evolve to fly. Just because we lack the naturan equipment nescessary for flight doesnt mean that our free will is restricted. The butterfly flying is one of its basic motor functions, and extentions of said functions. Same with humans.

So yeah, if we had true free will, we should be able to do anything beyond our wildest dreams. So no, we do not have a great deal of free will.

By much the same (but not identical) logic, our free will would always be restricted.
Say we have these powers, telekinesis, flight etc

Now I can fly by levitation, but I want to fly like the birds, so my physical structure changes. Thats your idea of free will existing there. But I grow weary of these abilities, and I want to stop being able to do all this, and my powers vanish - again your version of free will. Now Im powerless to do what I want. Thats a restriction of my free will.

So in conclusion, I can see where youre coming from, but I think youre putting to strict a definition on free will.

Although from the point of not having free will, I know what you mean. I can make you obey me. I can make you think of a pink elephant.

:Ready?

Dont think of a pink elephant! Worked, didnt it? =p

[200monkeys]

In a way, I think we do have total free will. Someone can will to do anything, including fly and shoot lightning from their hands, but to actually do it requires something else. It was willed to fly, so we invented machines that let us fly. Our free will and our mind's endless capabilities (maybe, still debated) allow us to think of anything we want and to will anything we want. Then, we must find a way to get what we want, like those pioneers who invented flight.

Let's say I want to rule the world. My free will lets me make this choice. My means of accomplishing this only limited by The free will of others. No one else wants me to rule the world I am quite sure.

Let's say I want to shoot lightning out of my hand. My free will letes me make taht choice. My means of accomplishing it are only limited by the technology of the time. What do I do? I find some way to create a glove that shoots electricity. May sound crazy, but I bet flying in a plane sounded crazy before it was made too.