Direct Compensation

[nitroxide]

Should Iraqui civilians recieve direct compensation for the lost of loved ones,as has been proposed by an american women doing a door to door tally on civilian deaths in iraq.

If this were to occur would previous innocent war victims be compelled to demand reperations for their tragic losses?

Prelimanary numbers show 814 civilian deaths
She estimates by the end it will be double this number.

I say no,i wasnt for the war yet its gonna be my tax dollars and others who were against the war that will pay for this.If we can waste 5 billion dollars on a navy battleship shouldnt there be some money to compensate for the damage that battleship will create in time of war.This money should come from the presidents paycheck directly.

[Slizor]

Umm, I would use these numbers instead of wherever you got your number from. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm

[Nirvana13666]

I don’t think they should be compensated through our tax dollars but I think some type of social services should be set up for them. Not only will it help stabilize the quality of life in Iraq but it will also give jobs to those who need them. I think that would be satisfactory compensation for us blowing up their cities at least.

[Shih]

I'd say no. Not because I'm heartless but just because it would be a really bad precedent to set. Can you imagine what would happen if everyone who'd ever lost a family member through goverment actions demanded reparations, and eventually it would spread so that it would be if an ancestor of yours had ever been killed in a war you could demand reparations.

[FUNKbrs]

Look people, you don't begin a war with the intention of making good. If you win, the subject country is your bitch. If you lose, well, don't lose. Reparations are how you punish the losing side, not how you punish the winners. Why? Because it's kind of hard to argue for reparations with an AK-47 in your mouth. Sadly, might makes right. Ask anyone who's ever gotten an illegal parking ticket and tried to fight it without a good lawyer.

[nitroxide]

At 5/28/03 07:29 AM, Slizor wrote: Umm, I would use these numbers instead of wherever you got your number from. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm

Im using her numbers,she doesnt believe any of the reported numbers although your numbers would work to her favor.Showing the massive destruction of war,but she is taking a door to door tally im pretty sure she will be suprised with her final numbers.

Still its not about numbers but seeing the faces of those who have suffered.

[mysecondstar]

collateral damage. i hate doing this but it is a ends justifies the means arguement. yes civilians die in war. but in the end it is for a greater outcome: Iraqi freedom. in a sense they died as a result of a noble cause. they die but their families and friends can enjoy a future without fear. i'd say that is the best compensation of all.

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

I would like to refer you all to an essay written by Onkar Ghate titled "innocents in war"

It is contained in Impact, a newsletter by the Ayn Rand foundation There is an online edition at:

http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/impact_war_issue.pdf

[nitroxide]

At 5/28/03 02:37 PM, mysecondstar wrote: collateral damage. i hate doing this but it is a ends justifies the means arguement. yes civilians die in war. but in the end it is for a greater outcome: Iraqi freedom. in a sense they died as a result of a noble cause. they die but their families and friends can enjoy a future without fear. i'd say that is the best compensation of all.

Hey star im not attacking you but go door to door in iraq and make that statement.

As for freedom being the best compensation i totally agree with you but all the iraqi people are getting is american intrusion.

[Jimsween]

At 5/28/03 02:55 PM, nitroxide wrote:

At 5/28/03 02:37 PM, mysecondstar wrote: collateral damage. i hate doing this but it is a ends justifies the means arguement. yes civilians die in war. but in the end it is for a greater outcome: Iraqi freedom. in a sense they died as a result of a noble cause. they die but their families and friends can enjoy a future without fear. i'd say that is the best compensation of all.

Hey star im not attacking you but go door to door in iraq and make that statement.

As for freedom being the best compensation i totally agree with you but all the iraqi people are getting is american intrusion.

Yes but It has only been maybe a month since the war ended, and we still get resistance. There ahs never been a war where the rebuilding process was easy for the citizens. But Germany and Japn seem happy enough now, And there was probably people having this exact argument.

[nitroxide]

At 5/28/03 03:14 PM, jimsween wrote:

At 5/28/03 02:55 PM, nitroxide wrote:

At 5/28/03 02:37 PM, mysecondstar wrote: collateral damage. i hate doing this but it is a ends justifies the means arguement. yes civilians die in war. but in the end it is for a greater outcome: Iraqi freedom. in a sense they died as a result of a noble cause. they die but their families and friends can enjoy a future without fear. i'd say that is the best compensation of all.

Hey star im not attacking you but go door to door in iraq and make that statement.

As for freedom being the best compensation i totally agree with you but all the iraqi people are getting is american intrusion.

Yes but It has only been maybe a month since the war ended, and we still get resistance. There ahs never been a war where the rebuilding process was easy for the citizens. But Germany and Japn seem happy enough now, And there was probably people having this exact argument.

Fine japan and germany are happy...for how long?As you very well should know the cycle of man and it should be clear to you that man is about one thing and that is destruction,it should be very clear that there will be another world war and im pretty sure that germany or japan will be a factor.Do you think they will be happy forever eventually all countries realize that there reperations were a joke and will see it as nothing else but an insult.

America-"Bomb you now,Pay you later"

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

At 5/28/03 03:29 PM, nitroxide wrote:

:Fine japan and germany are happy...for how long?As you very well should know the cycle of man and it should be clear to you that man is about one thing and that is destruction,it should be very clear that there will be another world war and im pretty sure that germany or japan will be a factor.Do you think they will be happy forever eventually all countries realize that there reperations were a joke and will see it as nothing else but an insult.

America-"Bomb you now,Pay you later"

Do you have anything to back that up, this argument here seems to be pretty emotion driven to me. I really don't follow the logic of this argument.

Please clarify the following
Cycle of Man
it should be clear to you that man is about one thing and that is destruction (I don't agree, can you back it up)
another world war... im pretty sure that germany or japan will be a factor (I can understand Japan being involved with a war against China or Korea, but Germany?)

eventually all countries realize that there reperations were a joke and will see it as nothing else but an insult. (Is that true, I wonder, how much reparations are neccessary for it to not become a joke)

I thank you in advance for clarifying these sticky points that I am having a hard time understanding.

[Commander-K25]

At 5/28/03 02:55 PM, nitroxide wrote:
Hey star im not attacking you but go door to door in iraq and make that statement.

Of course they would be angry, but you can't decide things just on the reaction of the victims. The victims are always going to demand reperations because they only see things from thier viewpoint, what happened to them and what they want. There is a much bigger picture to consider.

[nitroxide]

At 5/28/03 08:36 PM, Commander-K25 wrote:

At 5/28/03 02:55 PM, nitroxide wrote:

Of course they would be angry, but you can't decide things just on the reaction of the victims. The victims are always going to demand reperations because they only see things from thier viewpoint, what happened to them and what they want. There is a much bigger picture to consider.

I hate to agree but your right,Still it does sound pretty selfish you have to admit.

[nitroxide]

At 5/28/03 03:40 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote:

At 5/28/03 03:29 PM, nitroxide wrote:
America-"Bomb you now,Pay you later"

Do you have anything to back that up, this argument here seems to be pretty emotion driven to me. I really don't follow the logic of this argument.

Its not emotion driven.
November 20 1943-US Marines attack Tarawa. The island is taken after four days of heavy Bombing. There are no Japanese survivors.
August 6 1945-The first A-bomb explodes over Hiroshima. 80% of the town is destroyed, 90000 people die immediately, 400000 are wounded (with longterm-effects).
August 9 1945-The second A-bomb explodes over Nagasaki. 40000 people die immediately, 60000 are wounded.
Then pay later.

Please clarify the following
Cycle of Man
it should be clear to you that man is about one thing and that is destruction (I don't agree, can you back it up)

Doesnt man hate himself,i dont see society proving anything else of the contrary, rapes,murders, robberies all crimes against his own,are we not destroying our world.

another world war... im pretty sure that germany or japan will be a factor (I can understand Japan being involved with a war against China or Korea, but Germany?)

I mean a world war anyone can be involved even turkey=P

eventually all countries realize that there reperations were a joke and will see it as nothing else but an insult. (Is that true, I wonder, how much reparations are neccessary for it to not become a joke)

I mean that the casualties far outweigh any reperations.
August 6 1945-The first A-bomb explodes over Hiroshima. 80% of the town is destroyed, 90000 people die immediately, 400000 are wounded (with longterm-effects).
What do you think?

I thank you in advance for clarifying these sticky points that I am having a hard time understanding.

No problemo.

[A-Carrot-By-Dr-Riot]

I'm having a problem with this

"Doesnt man hate himself,i dont see society proving anything else of the contrary, rapes,murders, robberies all crimes against his own,are we not destroying our world."

I think you are overlooking many of the beautiful things that man has created. It must be acknowledged that things go wrong, but that is part of the nature of our semi-chaotic world. Just because people do things that are evil sometimes does not mean that mankind as a whole is evil, furthermore, it does not mean that man as individuals are evil.

I don't think we are destroying our world. I think we are changing it, some people just have a hard time understanding the value of the new things we make.

I agree that many of our race hate themselves. I wonder though, have you ever wondered why?

Dr. A

[nitroxide]

At 5/29/03 05:42 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: I'm having a problem with this

I think you are overlooking many of the beautiful things that man has created. It must be acknowledged that things go wrong, but that is part of the nature of our semi-chaotic world. Just because people do things that are evil sometimes does not mean that mankind as a whole is evil, furthermore, it does not mean that man as individuals are evil.

I agree,i dont hate man im one of the moral people in the world but faith in man is a lost case,history documents mans atrocities on himself.Women want to be in abusive relationships,men want to be in submissive relationships(the sick fetish of being treated like shit).It doesnt mean that the whole world is evil,i just believe the majority(Government,media,church)is evil enough to destroy our world.Im sorry i dint clarify.I agree that part of our nature is semi-chaotic,but then why is anarchy highly discredited?

I don't think we are destroying our world. I think we are changing it, some people just have a hard time understanding the value of the new things we make.

Like what?Futher advances in medicines lead to discovery of new drugs(NOT THAT I HATE DRUGS)
::Grabs Bong::
It leads to new diseases,As ive told funk who says progressive change is a good thing.
All it means is deadlier weapons.

I agree that many of our race hate themselves. I wonder though, have you ever wondered why?

Yes,could it be media implanting a false sense of the accepted appearance.Could it be the church,many sucides cases where christians couldnt face life as gays,could it be schools and their uncaring neglegent way of teaching our children,could it be government and hidden propaganda we dont know about.
Im not sure i cant tell you,i believe history shows that its just human nature to destroy.

Dr. A

Nitro-Chemical Master of the DAG

[antiqkk]

I must agree with nitroxide. After all what drives man is the greed, his hunger for power. You may say, that, no, people are beautiful, they love, they care for one another. But really all those beautiful emotions that can do so many good things in this world are overshadowed by this concept of ultimate power. The world is changing. And it doesn't look too good to me.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." (Albert Einstein)

[nitroxide]

At 5/30/03 12:39 PM, antiqkk wrote:
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." (Albert Einstein)

I never read that one before.Thank you.

::Gathers Sticks and Stones::

[cannibal7878]

War is war, expect some civilian deaths. America destroys a country in a war, then sends billions of our hard earned tax dollars rebuilding it, just so it can later turn agaisnt us...fucked up. Fuck the Iraqi's, if they decide to pay money for civilians lost, I will quit my job so my taxes won't pay for it.

[bumcheekcity]

At 6/1/03 11:56 AM, cannibal7878 wrote: If they decide to pay money for civilians lost, I will quit my job so my taxes won't pay for it.

But you're quite happy to pay for the bombs that make the initial damage?

[cannibal7878]

At 6/1/03 01:38 PM, bumcheekycity wrote:

At 6/1/03 11:56 AM, cannibal7878 wrote: If they decide to pay money for civilians lost, I will quit my job so my taxes won't pay for it.

But you're quite happy to pay for the bombs that make the initial damage?

Sure I am, I am all for all out war, but I am saying why destroy a country, then rebuild it? Death is a part of war, fuck all them. No one is innocent. Just eliminate the whole country, mass genocide, less to worry about, and free up space for the rest of us.

[Kenney333]

Compensation eh? how bout instead of money each one of them just gets a chance to kick Dubya in the crotch, it would make an interesting FOX special

[TheShrike]

I thought removing a dictator from power should have been enough.

I was never for this war. I dislike war.

But the fact remains that war is hell. The idea of paying each family on a per-death basis is absolutely crazy.

People die in war. Good people, bad people, and completely innocent people. Get over it.

[mysecondstar]

At 6/1/03 05:04 PM, TheShrike wrote: People die in war. Good people, bad people, and completely innocent people. Get over it.

i don't know about getting over it. no one can really get over a loss. but i agree in principle.

on a different note, i'm loving that shrikey-cola duck.

[Jlop985]

At 6/1/03 01:45 PM, cannibal7878 wrote:

At 6/1/03 01:38 PM, bumcheekycity wrote:

At 6/1/03 11:56 AM, cannibal7878 wrote: If they decide to pay money for civilians lost, I will quit my job so my taxes won't pay for it.

But you're quite happy to pay for the bombs that make the initial damage?

Sure I am, I am all for all out war, but I am saying why destroy a country, then rebuild it? Death is a part of war, fuck all them. No one is innocent. Just eliminate the whole country, mass genocide, less to worry about, and free up space for the rest of us.

I do sincerely hope you are kidding. I do think Bush had ulterior motives, but at least the war was fought in part to free the Iraqi people. Nowdays war is not waged against non-combatants, though some die. It is waged against soldiers and the government of the opposing country. I say that we do not have to give direct reparations to Iraq, but we rebuild them Marshall Plan style, just like we're not doing with Afghanistan.

[nitroxide]

At 6/1/03 05:04 PM, TheShrike wrote: I thought removing a dictator from power should have been enough.

Was it only for this reason alone that we got involved in the first place,i mean saddam has been terrorising his people for awhile.

I was never for this war. I dislike war.

Me too.::Pops open a can of Shrikey Cola::ahhhh...refreshing...sorry
::Grabs bong::

But the fact remains that war is hell. The idea of paying each family on a per-death basis is absolutely crazy.

I agree war is hell.
Average funeral cost=$5,778.16
Additional cost:
Cemetery plot: $500 to several thousand
Opening and closing the grave: $350 to $1,500, depending on the time and day of the week
Headstones, statues, or markers: $500 to several thousand
Alternative cremation=just $1,500 or less

It cost an estimated 5 billion dollars to make a navy docking vessel,and 5 million to maintain it each year.

Lets say at max 9,000 iraquis died,and the least america could do is pay for an all out funeral lets say 8,000 dollars each(now we know alot of people in there situation would choose the cremation and save the money)that would be 72 million dollars.

Ok sounds like alot but you funded a 5 billion dollar WMD(navy vessel)to do the damage in the first place.Everyone wants compensation nowadays even americans are sueing the government for what happened on 9-11.

People die in war. Good people, bad people, and completely innocent people. Get over it.

Wait till it happens to you...and i hope you have the strength to say that to yourself.

Only one thing is true in life:

VIVA LE DAG!!!

[mysecondstar]

At 6/2/03 02:20 AM, nitroxide wrote: Everyone wants compensation nowadays even americans are sueing the government for what happened on 9-11.

the suits regarding 9/11 have to do with the intelligence that went unheeded. the US does have a sort of "invulnerable" aura about them. 9/11 showed US vulnerability. and because of that there was an outcry. it is the government's fault for letting 9/11 happen without a hitch. i've lost friends during the attack. but i'm not going to go and sue the US government because my friends are gone now. plus the US is giving out aid to all those that lost family. if they sue they will lose that aid money. and i'll bet no one wants to risk losing out on that aid package.

as for the Iraqis, i bet you most of them don't even know what it means to file suit against anyone about anything. the way they would go about handling things is by revenge. if they truly followed the Koran they wouldn't do that, but it's human nature. plus aid in the form of food and money are going into their communities. in the end all things will be taken care of.

People die in war. Good people, bad people, and completely innocent people. Get over it.

Wait till it happens to you...and i hope you have the strength to say that to yourself.

Only one thing is true in life:

VIVA LE DAG!!!

it's vive le DAG if you want french. unless i'm crazy and you're trying to do spanish and misspelled "el". anywho, i'm done.

[nitroxide]

At 6/2/03 02:33 AM, mysecondstar wrote:

At 6/2/03 02:20 AM, nitroxide wrote:

the suits regarding 9/11 have to do with the intelligence that went unheeded. the US does have a sort of "invulnerable" aura about them. 9/11 showed US vulnerability. and because of that there was an outcry. it is the government's fault for letting 9/11 happen without a hitch. i've lost friends during the attack. but i'm not going to go and sue the US government because my friends are gone now. plus the US is giving out aid to all those that lost family. if they sue they will lose that aid money. and i'll bet no one wants to risk losing out on that aid package.

Its not "friends" that have the right for compensation.

as for the Iraqis, i bet you most of them don't even know what it means to file suit against anyone about anything. the way they would go about handling things is by revenge. if they truly followed the Koran they wouldn't do that, but it's human nature. plus aid in the form of food and money are going into their communities. in the end all things will be taken care of.

I agree those are just as much hypocrites that dont follow the christian faith down to a tee.

Only one thing is true in life:
VIVA LE DAG!!!

it's vive le DAG if you want french. unless i'm crazy and you're trying to do spanish and misspelled "el". anywho, i'm done.

Im spanish,so it sounded better to me...its not for anyone elses enjoyment...but if you take pleasure in it go head.

VIVA LE DAG!!!

[Jlop985]

At 5/29/03 05:42 PM, Dr_Arbitrary wrote: I think you are overlooking many of the beautiful things that man has created.

...

I agree that many of our race hate themselves. I wonder though, have you ever wondered why?

Dr. A

I commend Dr_Arbitrary for the recent rise in post intelligence that he has shown.