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At 6/15/07 07:56 PM, lapis wrote:

At 5/17/07 01:08 PM, lapis wrote: (I think Abbas can order a new poll but I'm not sure as to whether he has this power).

My question has been answered. Whoopie.

Obviouslt not :)

I didn't know that the sways that Fatah and Hamas held differed so greatly between the Strip and the West Bank.

The West Bank and strio are two very different areas, both with different influences, mainly because it is pretty hard to get from one part to another.

I never thought that Hamas would be able to completely topple Fatah in Gaza so soon. I also have no idea how the Izzedine al-Qassam brigades think this will aid their position,

Aren't the al Qassam a Fatah oriented group?
Also, Hamas is much more powerful than Fatah, Fatah is more human I guess, they're both terrorist...

The West Bank will only grow to be even more isolated than it was before but then again, they don't have that much to lose anyhow.

Actually, I hope it'll grow independent, a 2 Palastinian countries solution will be great territory wise since there won't be a problem of passage

When the Unity Government deal was struck a lot of Hamas militants seem to have felt betrayed by their moderate wing, who accepted a shared control over the government while Hamas' electoral victory would have legally allowed them to remain the sole party in the country's government, except the presidency of course.

Except for the presidency... I think the most influencing step was the establishment of the "legal" Hamas security force, that's what started this revolution

Sacking Mahmoud al-Zahar (foreign minister under the previous Hamas government, co-founder of Hamas) and Said Siam (minister of the interior under the previous Hamas government) also didn't help in a way. They disappeared for some time and apparently worked on regaining their positions through a coup from the moment they got laid off. The moderate elements of Hamas, Haniyah and Barghouti among others have lost all forms of control over the Izzedine brigades to more radical prominents such as Nizar Rayan.

Barghouti is Fatah, and Haniyah isn't moderate, Haniyah still has a lot of control but I don't think he has much of a problem with current developments.

Anyway, any form of peace in the region just became even less likely.

And like I said, Israel is being fired missiles at daily, and we can't do much because there is no official government in Gaza :/

I wonder what the Brigades are going to do in the Strip in the coming weeks. They seem to be executing some of their former Fatah rivals but I mainly wonder what their stance regarding the Islamic Jihad will be. Will they aim to strengthen their position in the Strip or will they focus towards the battle against Israel?

They can't really win a battle against Israel, once they gain full control of the strip we can do really mean things to them, shut electricity, shut water, and worse, they won't fuck with us that much.

At 6/15/07 04:46 PM, Cahenn wrote: If Hamas won't stop launching missiles Israel can enter Gaza with armed forces

I think that's unavoidable,

Sadly, I guess we'll have to enter Gaza, hopefully for a short period of time as the food there sucks :P

I think Abbas lost a decent amount of prestige in this whole affair. He cannot possibly reach any sort of peace deal without control over the Strip or he'll be denounced as a traitor

He has full control of the west bank

At 6/15/07 09:24 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: Fuck both of them.

Maybe if they could get thier shit together the international community would care about them.

But, now, no one is going to help them or aid them.

Let them go kill each other off. Give the Isreali's a weaker enemy.

The Israelis don't want the palastinian civilian population living in terror, it's just a shame to see that now that we're out of gaza and their lives were supposed to be better they started to violently control themselves :/ it is in Israel's interest that Palestinians have a good life...

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i think they should unite against israel

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Fatah will be dealt with amicably, but Hamas will be pummeled. That's the best case scenario, I would think.

I can't see how the Palestinians will ever have a state at this rate.

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At 6/16/07 05:43 AM, MickTheChampion wrote: I fucking hate Hamas, they've virtually taken over Gaza now aswell - it'll be re-named Hamasstan.

This is now all the justification that the United States and Israel need to bomb the Palestinian people into the dust, the future is looking very grim.

MickTheChampion, PLO supporter.

I feel there is some inconsistency here.

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I have no questions to ask.

I don't know if you were being sarcastic about anything you said, but you stated that you hated Hamas, and then you said that you were a PLO supporter and both Hamas and the PLO (if i remember) is to opt for the complete destruction of Israel. I don't know things may have changed.

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Ahh I see. Things have pretty much changed since I last remember them.

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At 6/16/07 04:22 AM, Cahenn wrote: Aren't the al Qassam a Fatah oriented group?

The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is Fatah-oriented, the Izzedine al-Qassam brigades are the military wing of Hamas ("Hamas' military wing, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, (...)").

Also, Hamas is much more powerful than Fatah, Fatah is more human I guess, they're both terrorist...

Fatah seems to be able to hold control over the West Bank... I don't know for how long though.

Actually, I hope it'll grow independent, a 2 Palastinian countries solution will be great territory wise since there won't be a problem of passage

Meh, maybe Gaza could be viable as an independent state if it evolved into a tourist haven like Kos or Rhodos, since that's pretty unlikely it'll probably develop into a development aid blackhole at best and a Qassam launching base at worst.

When the Unity Government deal was struck a lot of Hamas militants seem to have felt betrayed by their moderate wing, who accepted a shared control over the government while Hamas' electoral victory would have legally allowed them to remain the sole party in the country's government, except the presidency of course.

Except for the presidency... I think the most influencing step was the establishment of the "legal" Hamas security force, that's what started this revolution

It wasn't necessarily a bad thing, it's awkward at best when the average member of the security forces despises the democratically elected cabinet. The forces should be loyal to whatever government there is and not only to the party they're part of, it has to represent the people as a whole but Fatah was corrupt to the extent where no one who wasn't affiliated with them was awarded a job in the PA. Corruption was the main reason why Hamas won the legislative elections in early 2006 anyway, and it could eventually cost them their neck in the West Bank as well.

Anyway, the founding of Hamas security forces wasn't a completely ununderstandable move per se but I agree that when they're combined with disgruntled radical leaders they're an important ingredient of a recipe for disaster.

Barghouti is Fatah,

There are two Barghoutis, Marwan Barghouti, Fatah's information minister in the unity government and Mohammed Barghouti, labour minister in the Hamas cabinet and minister of local affairs in the national unity cabinet. He's among the moderates in Hamas, "He's the new face of Hamas - a well-spoken intellectual who says he wants a Palestinian state alongside Israel, not instead of it."

and Haniyah isn't moderate,

Well, he's relatively moderate at the very least. As far as I know he's willing to negotiate and he's a supporter of a long term truce with Israel.

They can't really win a battle against Israel, once they gain full control of the strip we can do really mean things to them, shut electricity, shut water, and worse, they won't fuck with us that much.

Their lives have already been pretty crappy in the past and I don't think there's much that can be done to discourage them. If the average Gazan civilian is harmed he will always sooner blame Israel than (the militants of) Hamas and as long as there is support for them there will be terror. It doesn't take a lot of resources to build a Qassam and launch it.

Sadly, I guess we'll have to enter Gaza, hopefully for a short period of time as the food there sucks :P

Not a big fan of falafel, I presume?

He has full control of the west bank

Yeah, but the loss of prestige is a fact and I wonder for how long he'll be able to keep the West Bank pacified. Maybe if there are major breakthroughs in the West Bank like a significant improvement of the quality of life among Palestinians in the region and a halt to settlement expansion then he'll have something to boast about and shake off the image of a powerless tool that he's attained in the past few years.

The Israelis don't want the palastinian civilian population living in terror, it's just a shame to see that now that we're out of gaza and their lives were supposed to be better they started to violently control themselves :/ it is in Israel's interest that Palestinians have a good life...

Heh, well I doubt that the avarage settler, Israel Beitenu voter or haaretz.com talkbacker will even try to conceal their smirks. It's great that you care but I'm not sure whether you can speak for your country as a whole.

At 6/16/07 07:58 PM, Hashshashin wrote: Ahh I see. Things have pretty much changed since I last remember them.

Heh, I guess you haven't looked into the PLO's positions for a long time. In 1993 the PLO's recognition of Israel became official in return for Israel's recognition of the PLO as the sole representatives of the Palestinian people, but rumours about such a deal surfaced as early as 1982 and Arafat proclaimed his support for the two-state solution suring a speech in front of the UN in 1988.

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At 6/17/07 08:27 AM, lapis wrote: The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade is Fatah-oriented, the Izzedine al-Qassam brigades are the military wing of Hamas ("Hamas' military wing, the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, (...)").

Right, we have different names for them here :)

Fatah seems to be able to hold control over the West Bank... I don't know for how long though.

That 'may' have something to do with the fact the IDF is still in the west bank, the one holding control of the bank is Fatah nor Hamas it's Israel, unlike the strip Israel hasn't withdrawn from the bank yet.

Meh, maybe Gaza could be viable as an independent state if it evolved into a tourist haven like Kos or Rhodos, since that's pretty unlikely it'll probably develop into a development aid blackhole at best and a Qassam launching base at worst.

Gaza could easily be independent, and it has a lot of potential, the problem is the Islamic leadership running the show :/ Can't go on telling people how to live though

It wasn't necessarily a bad thing, it's awkward at best when the average member of the security forces despises the democratically elected cabinet.

They despised the cabinet but it still ran the show, either way it was a bad idea, combining the forces might've work.

The forces should be loyal to whatever government there is and not only to the party they're part of, it has to represent the people as a whole but Fatah was corrupt to the extent where no one who wasn't affiliated with them was awarded a job in the PA. Corruption was the main reason why Hamas won the legislative elections in early 2006 anyway, and it could eventually cost them their neck in the West Bank as well.

Yep, corruption is a very big problem in Palastinian territories, Hamas aren't exactly the least corrupt either.

Anyway, the founding of Hamas security forces wasn't a completely ununderstandable move per se but I agree that when they're combined with disgruntled radical leaders they're an important ingredient of a recipe for disaster.

it's understandable, just not democratic

Barghouti is Fatah,

There are two Barghoutis, Marwan Barghouti, Fatah's information minister in the unity government and Mohammed Barghouti, labour minister in the Hamas cabinet and minister of local affairs in the national unity cabinet. He's among the moderates in Hamas, "He's the new face of Hamas - a well-spoken intellectual who says he wants a Palestinian state alongside Israel, not instead of it."

Mohammad Barghouti really isn't seen as leadership by Israelis... neither he has much practical influence over the radical groups

and Haniyah isn't moderate,

Well, he's relatively moderate at the very least. As far as I know he's willing to negotiate and he's a supporter of a long term truce with Israel.

You mean "long term ceasefire with the evil bloodthirsty zionist devils who occupy Palastine" as he defines it :P hardly a partner for peace.

They can't really win a battle against Israel, once they gain full control of the strip we can do really mean things to them, shut electricity, shut water, and worse, they won't fuck with us that much.

Their lives have already been pretty crappy in the past and I don't think there's much that can be done to discourage them. If the average Gazan civilian is harmed he will always sooner blame Israel than (the militants of) Hamas and as long as there is support for them there will be terror. It doesn't take a lot of resources to build a Qassam and launch it.

A Qassam is a streetlight pipe, with gunpowder and fins, I built one once for testing of a CIWS system, quite an easy process indeed and not very time consuming. However there are things worse than you can imagine we can do the Hamas, we can hermetically siege the gaza strip for one, no food, no water, no electricity... we can use unethical weaponry, and more. The problem is that we really don't wanna harm the innocent population, which is our biggest problem, the ethical code the IDF lives by is that you have to abord an operation against a target (unless that target has means and intention to commit terrorism very soon) if there is a possibility of civilian casualties.

Sadly, I guess we'll have to enter Gaza, hopefully for a short period of time as the food there sucks :P

Not a big fan of falafel, I presume?

We love falafel, in fact there is a friendly arab village next to my town, they make great falafel :)

He has full control of the west bank

Yeah, but the loss of prestige is a fact and I wonder for how long he'll be able to keep the West Bank pacified.

Thing is the IDF is there, so not that much can happen :)

The Israelis don't want the palastinian civilian population living in terror, it's just a shame to see that now that we're out of gaza and their lives were supposed to be better they started to violently control themselves :/ it is in Israel's interest that Palestinians have a good life...

Heh, well I doubt that the avarage settler, Israel Beitenu voter or haaretz.com talkbacker will even try to conceal their smirks. It's great that you care but I'm not sure whether you can speak for your country as a whole.

Haaretz is usually considered a left wing newspaper haha :P Generally the people who say "just let them kill eachother, the more the better" aren't considered very smart around here...