Fatah and Hamas

[Hashshashin]

Whilst reading a BBC article, I noticed it said...

"The attacks came as efforts to end five days of fighting between rivals Hamas and Fatah again appeared to fail. At least 40 people have now died."

Sure, their both rivals because they are the two major Palestinian political parties, but then it said...

"Fighting between Mr Abbas's Fatah and the Islamist Hamas threatens a hard-won unity government they formed in March."

I was quite surprised when I read this, I knew they had formed a coalition government and obviously there would have been some tension as Hamas are hell-bent on the destruction of Israel whereas Fatah opt for peace, but I did not know that it had come to this. Fighting with each other, thats not very good for Palestinian politics.
So what i'm really wondering is, how did it escalate to proper fighting?

[Hashshashin]

And for good measure, the article.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/
6664917.stm

[robattle]

This is old news to me. I saw it on The Hal Linsey Report.

[Hashshashin]

Didn't quite answer my question, but okay.

[Wadger]

maybe it was only about power not freedom for palestine.

[lapis]

At 5/17/07 11:33 AM, Hashshashin wrote: thats not very good for Palestinian politics.

Well, Hamas has been winning so far and they're now launching Qassams into Israel, possibly in an attempt to draw Israel into the fighting and "unite" the Palestinians against a common enemy. It might even work. None of this will bring the region one step closer to peace, of course. Then again, Hamas' little foray into Politics has not been very fruitful for them, foreign officials still avoid them like the plague and most development aid is still cut off despite the forming of a unity government. If they recognise Israel they'll not only forfeit their core principles but they'll also lose the support of a lot of their supporters. I think Israel had stopped assassinating Hamas members (until they started resumed launching) unlike during the unilateral hudna (cease-fire) that they called off shortly before they partook in the elections that they'd eventually win, so that was their only gain so far.

So what i'm really wondering is, how did it escalate to proper fighting?

Hamas controls the government but most of the Palestinian security foces are still loyal to Fatah. The militant wing of Hamas is probably trying to establish themselves as the dominant Palestinian fighting force in Gaza (assuming that Hamas started fighting, they probably did). They've shown some muscle in the past few days and I think Hamas will be trying to end this conflict soon, I guess this fighting will hurt their popularity in the Gaza strip somewhat so if they manage to provoke a few vigourous Israeli responses they'll rewin that as well. But Fatah is far from beaten of course so this probably won't be the last quarelling that we'll be seeing in Gaza this year.

[Hashshashin]

Ahh I see.

So really, it's all down to the military side of stuff thats causing all the rivalry?

[lapis]

At 5/17/07 12:51 PM, Hashshashin wrote: Ahh I see.

So really, it's all down to the military side of stuff thats causing all the rivalry?

In this case I think it is. All of these fights stem from the power struggle between Fatah and Hamas, both in the government and in the military. Fatah holds the presidency and Hamas controls the parliamant so they're deadlocked here until the next national election, and we'll probably have to wait a few years before we'll see another one (I think Abbas can order a new poll but I'm not sure as to whether he has this power). In the streets they can still vie for dominance, however. Politicians are also more willing to compromise than militants, which explains why the two parties forged a unity government but keep failing to broker any sort of effectual truce between their respective militant wings.

At 5/17/07 12:30 PM, lapis wrote: (until they started resumed launching)

I have no idea where my mind was when I came up with this abomination of a sentence, by the way.

Until they resumed launching Qassams

[Mr-Pope]

Is Israel arming Fatah, anyone know?

[Hashshashin]

At 5/17/07 01:08 PM, lapis wrote:

Politicians are also more willing to compromise than militants, which explains why the two parties forged a unity government but keep failing to broker any sort of effectual truce between their respective militant wings.

Ahh I totally understand now, I totally blinded myself to the military issues, and just focused on the actual politics.

[Korriken]

At 5/17/07 01:12 PM, Mr-Pope wrote: Is Israel arming Fatah, anyone know?

if not, they should be. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Israel and Fatah teamed up to bring Hamas to its knees. That would be a step in the right direction.

[emmytee]

C'mon the Fatah!!!

Seriously, how come we're not giving them tanks and shit? We gave Saddam Chemical weapons ffs, and he wasn't exactly a great guy.

[Hashshashin]

Fatah FTW!

If Hamas gained full control of everything, it would only get much worse for Israel/Palestine. Just think how much people would die.

[AapoJoki]

I think Israel and the western nations should do more to establish some diplomatic ground with the Palestinians, regardless of whether they're governed by Fatah or Hamas.

[JoS]

Israel is no fan of Fatah. lest we forget Yassir Arafat and the house arrest Israel placed him under with tanks surrounding his home. Fatah is not all about making nice nice with Israel. They too hate Israel, but are mroe tolerant perhaps than currently Hamas is. The lesser of two evils or the enemy of your enemy is not the one you should be arming. The US found that out when they gave weapons to Iraq or training to Osama bin Laden.

[emmytee]

Fatah stick up for palestine when they need to. At least the new lot do, Arafat and Olmert just had a personal hatred for each other right from the start.

[Cuppa-LettuceNog]

Yeah, old news for me too; the situation has slowly escalated (domino effect style) to full blown infighting, sorta like in Iraq, although it hasn't reached full blown civil war.

[Hashshashin]

At 5/17/07 08:07 PM, Cuppa-LettuceNog wrote: Yeah, old news for me too; the situation has slowly escalated (domino effect style) to full blown infighting, sorta like in Iraq, although it hasn't reached full blown civil war.

Well the way things are going on right now, I wouldn't be surprised if it lead to a civil war.

[HighlyIllogical]

At 5/17/07 12:06 PM, Wadger wrote: maybe it was only about power not freedom for palestine.

Quite true. There's too much infighting between Hamas and Fatah for there to be a proper Palestinian state as of yet.

[HandsomePete]

I'm not reading the whole thread here, but if you hadn't heard, Mahmoud Abbas dissolved the government and has declared a state of emergency, and there's definitely a civil war going on in Palestine. This is ya know, pretty bad.

[HighlyIllogical]

At 5/17/07 06:47 PM, JoS wrote: Israel is no fan of Fatah.

Certainly true, but the situation has changed. Apparently (or so I hear from Israelis and others), Gaza is Hamas controlled, while the West Bank is likely to be more or less Fatah dominated.

That brings a whole new meaning to the two state solution, huh?

[Hashshashin]

Yeah that's right, Hamas forces have pretty much overrun most of Gaza and claimed to have 'liberated' the city from Fatah forces.

Now that Mahmoud Abbas has decided to dissolve the coalition-led government, what will this mean?

[HandsomePete]

I've heard that they want a cease fire. It's possible we could end up seeing three different states out of the deal, which might shut Hamas up. Then, when they actually fight Israel, the whole thing could finally be solved.

[Hashshashin]

Yeah, but nothing seems to shut Hamas up, they always seem to disagree on something.

[HighlyIllogical]

At 6/15/07 01:23 PM, HandsomePete wrote: I've heard that they want a cease fire.

Fatah, maybe. Hamas? Doubt it.

It's possible we could end up seeing three different states out of the deal, which might shut Hamas up. Then, when they actually fight Israel, the whole thing could finally be solved.

Well, the situation, as I said, brings a whole new "two state" solution to mind. It is good in the way that now the West (US, EU and Israel) can deal with Hamas and Fatah separately...and if Israel makes incursions on Gaza, there wouldn't be as many complaints, since it is now Hamas controlled...and everyone hates Hamas.

[animehater]

At 6/15/07 01:23 PM, HandsomePete wrote: Then, when they actually fight Israel, the whole thing could finally be solved.

Sounds like another summer of hanging by my couch and watching the fireworks live on the news just like last year.

[Cahenn]

Basically what Israel is hoping for is for Hamas to control the gaza strip and Fatah to control the west bank.

Once Hamas holds the entire gaza strip Israel will be able to negotiate with both parties in a reasonable way (since each party has full control of an area).

If Hamas won't stop launching missiles Israel can enter Gaza with armed forces and fight against one enemy in charge rather than just shoot around and accomplish nothing more than civilian casualties, which is why we've avoided taking much action regarding the hundreds of missiles launched towards Israel so far. We can actually come to terms with Hamas once they have full control although we don't believe we'll be able to accomplish peace with them, or come close.

As for Fatah, Abbas has always been willing to make peace, and it'll be a pleasure to be able to actually deal with him as he does hold full control of the west bank, it's the gaza strip he had a problem with.

However what will probably happen is just a big mess, we'll keep getting rockets launched at us, suicide bombers trying to get in, booby trapped boats trying to ram innocent trader ships, and so on without doing or being able to do a thing about it >:(

At least they're concentrating their efforts on fighting each other and not us in the meantime so we're only getting 2-3 rockets a day...

[Cahenn]

At 5/17/07 08:07 PM, Cuppa-LettuceNog wrote: Yeah, old news for me too; the situation has slowly escalated (domino effect style) to full blown infighting, sorta like in Iraq, although it hasn't reached full blown civil war.

It's not like Iraq at all since Israel is not interfering with the mess like the US is in Iraq, neither it's in its interest...

At 5/17/07 06:52 PM, emmytee wrote: Fatah stick up for palestine when they need to. At least the new lot do, Arafat and Olmert just had a personal hatred for each other right from the start.

Arafat died before olmert became PM of Israel... Sharon and Arafat didn't have that much of a hatred... it's the fact Sharon ended most of the terror towards Israel with a zero tolerance policy and one sided steps for the Palestinians (like the Gaza withdrawal) ... Olmert ruined that obviously, dragged us into an unneeded war and just made more of a mess

At 5/17/07 06:46 PM, AapoJoki wrote: I think Israel and the western nations should do more to establish some diplomatic ground with the Palestinians, regardless of whether they're governed by Fatah or Hamas.

The problem is Israel can't establish some diplomatic group since there isn't a side that has full control of the area so making peace with once faction doesn't mean a safer Israel or Palastine :/

[lapis]

At 5/17/07 01:08 PM, lapis wrote: (I think Abbas can order a new poll but I'm not sure as to whether he has this power).

My question has been answered. Whoopie.

I didn't know that the sways that Fatah and Hamas held differed so greatly between the Strip and the West Bank. I never thought that Hamas would be able to completely topple Fatah in Gaza so soon. I also have no idea how the Izzedine al-Qassam brigades think this will aid their position, The West Bank will only grow to be even more isolated than it was before but then again, they don't have that much to lose anyhow. When the Unity Government deal was struck a lot of Hamas militants seem to have felt betrayed by their moderate wing, who accepted a shared control over the government while Hamas' electoral victory would have legally allowed them to remain the sole party in the country's government, except the presidency of course.

Sacking Mahmoud al-Zahar (foreign minister under the previous Hamas government, co-founder of Hamas) and Said Siam (minister of the interior under the previous Hamas government) also didn't help in a way. They disappeared for some time and apparently worked on regaining their positions through a coup from the moment they got laid off. The moderate elements of Hamas, Haniyah and Barghouti among others have lost all forms of control over the Izzedine brigades to more radical prominents such as Nizar Rayan.

Anyway, any form of peace in the region just became even less likely. The forces that gained power have no will to negotiate - Hamas' move into legitimate politics might have finally been killed in the past week, I don't know if Haniyah will be able to regain some form of control in the future but right now the futures of his persona, his ideals and his comrades look grim.

I wonder what the Brigades are going to do in the Strip in the coming weeks. They seem to be executing some of their former Fatah rivals but I mainly wonder what their stance regarding the Islamic Jihad will be. Will they aim to strengthen their position in the Strip or will they focus towards the battle against Israel?

At 6/15/07 04:46 PM, Cahenn wrote: If Hamas won't stop launching missiles Israel can enter Gaza with armed forces

I think that's unavoidable, I don't think there are that many internal threats to Hamas in Gaza right now and I don't think that foreign powers will be too eager to send intervention forces into the Strip like Abbas requested - and I think Qassams will eventually provoke some sort of a response. I have no idea what Barak will do to make himself look like a proper Defence minster in contrast to Peretz, but I think it will involve some sort of miltary incursion (this is all pure speculation). Not that an Israeli intervention will result in a lot of progess, though. Kind of hard to think of a proper way to deal with the Brigades that won't merely increase their popularity among the common Gazan.

As for Fatah, Abbas has always been willing to make peace, and it'll be a pleasure to be able to actually deal with him as he does hold full control of the west bank, it's the gaza strip he had a problem with.

I think Abbas lost a decent amount of prestige in this whole affair. He cannot possibly reach any sort of peace deal without control over the Strip or he'll be denounced as a traitor who made peace while his brethren in Gaza were still combating Israel. It's easier to deal with parties that properly represent their subjects but part one will refuse to negotiate and party two has nothing to bring to the table.

[MortifiedPenguins]

Fuck both of them.

Maybe if they could get thier shit together the international community would care about them.

But, now, no one is going to help them or aid them.

Let them go kill each other off. Give the Isreali's a weaker enemy.