Sarkozy

[SomeNick]

Well, since Sarkozy won the French Presidential Elections, I am opening this thread for debate.

Personally I think it will be a good change for France. Sarkozy is younger than most previous French presidents and seems to have very good ideas to make of France a more advanced country, as well as seeking to increase the economy by promoting more industries and work, which will probably help the salary of people a lot. He also plans to make of France a safer, law abiding place.

Well, the space for debate is open.

[HighlyIllogical]

I certainly think that he'll be more receptive to the interests of the United States (and more supportive, as well). If there's one thing that the riots caused, it's increased hatred of immigrants (In France), and probably of their origins, too.

[JakeHero]

Only a conservative or center-right politician can heal relations between their country and the USA.

There's my input.

[AapoJoki]

At 5/6/07 07:01 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: I certainly think that he'll be more receptive to the interests of the United States (and more supportive, as well).

Well, Chirac was a conservative as well and he didn't get a long very well with Bush. There's also Dominique de Villepin, a conservative and current prime minister of France, who was furiously against the war in Iraq and gave a very impressive speech about it at a UN meeting.

I was hoping that Royal would win, but the outcome wasn't very surprising. Sarkozy is certainly more to the right than Chirac was and his speeches and manners are less moderate.

[Boltrig]

From the early news reports hes setting his sights a little high, I reckon. Did you see the amount of targets he set for himself to achieve within 100 days!

Hes either going to fail with a few of them and look daft or manage them and then run out of steam after his 100 days.

Im not sure which one would be the better scenario

[HighlyIllogical]

At 5/6/07 07:47 PM, AapoJoki wrote:

Well, Chirac was a conservative as well and he didn't get a long very well with Bush.

True, true. However, I do think that Sarkozky's statements reflect the nature of the relationship that he wants to have with the US of A.

[Memorize]

What did you expect?

He was running against a socialist.

And is it just me or does he look like Sylvester Stallone?

[Tancrisism]

At 5/7/07 01:12 AM, Tal-con wrote:

At 5/6/07 07:01 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: I certainly think that he'll be more receptive to the interests of the United States (and more supportive, as well).

I have this opinion too, but only because the media fed me such information, and I am too ill-informed to know what the fuck I'm talking about.

Admirable honesty.

[cellardoor6]

I think he's a swell guy.

I've been following the election for a while (Satellite TV) and he's promising to adopt US-style economic policies, patch up relations with the US, and free up the French market to create more of a capitalist system as opposed the the socialist system that has basically crippled France's economy. He's one of the very few European politicians that openly admits that there are lessons to be learned and policies to be emulated from America, and the fact that he won on that platform is kind of miraculous. It makes me a little giddy.

I think that once the French get a taste of the financial and social freedoms they're not used to now, maybe some of the anti-Americanism that revolves around that issue might subside a wee bit. That is part Sarkozy's plan because much of the anti-American criticism in France is from socialists who are violently opposed to capitalism, yet they have never really had it fully implemented. Once they experience it, I bet they'll see the errors of their former ways when their economy actually starts growing for once, their unemployment goes down from the ridiculously high level it's at now, and taxes get cut making each citizen have more disposable wealth. They'll shrug off their current dependence on big brother and have their minds opened a little bit.

But that might just be wishful thinking. But at least Chirac will be gone, and Royal won't be in power.

[Temudjin]

As a french guy, I'm not as enthousiastic as you seem to be.

I don't consider myself as an "Anti-American" or something, but rather as an Anti-Sarko.

This man was working for about 5 years in government, promising to "save France from scum", with kinda irrespectuous way of talking to people living in unfavorized suburbs.
He has based his campaign on fear of the other, fear of the immigrant, with the help of the medias (he has a lot of close friends workin' for him in those medias, what a luck, huh ?).
He based all his work as minister on repression rather than prevention. And I personnally can't accept it.
That's because of this way of showing suburbians, immigrants and all other different people as scum and uncivilized people, that J.M. Le Pen (an extremist) was close to become president 5 years ago.
He did it again this time, and you've the result.
I'm... disgusted.

[cellardoor6]

At 5/7/07 04:47 AM, Temudjin wrote: As a french guy, I'm not as enthousiastic as you seem to be.

Well it's your country. Beyond everything, I'm just happy Chirac is gone and Royal isn't in power.

I don't consider myself as an "Anti-American" or something, but rather as an Anti-Sarko.

This man was working for about 5 years in government, promising to "save France from scum", with kinda irrespectuous way of talking to people living in unfavorized suburbs.

You need to realize that by 'scum' he is referring to people who commit crime and are the people who burned cars, attacked police, an went on violent riots.

He has based his campaign on fear of the other, fear of the immigrant

He wasn't basing it on fear of immigrants, he was basing it on concern for the enormous problem certain parts of the country that have become lawless due to the lack of INTEGRATION into French society. It's not that the people are immigrants, it's that people w

He based all his work as minister on repression rather than prevention. And I personnally can't accept it.

Repression? You mean discontinuing to reward un-inegrated immigrants with tax money instead of "preventing" them from committing crime by allowing them to do nothing while living on welfare like has been done in France?

It's obvious the former policies of giving immunity to immigrants didn't work. Sarkozy's not about mistreating immigrants, he's about refusing to allow political correctness to handicap France from doing what it has to do to fix the problems it has. He is an immigrant himself you know...

That's because of this way of showing suburbians, immigrants and all other different people as scum and uncivilized people, that J.M. Le Pen (an extremist) was close to become president 5 years ago.

He didn't refer to them all as uncivilized, he only referred to well.. the UNCIVILIZED people who happen to be immigrants as 'scum' due to the fact that they commit large amounts of crime, riot violently, and refuse to integrate into French society. He was addressing the part of France that basically just runs amok unchecked all while living off of the tax money paid by law abiding French people who work hard.

I'm... disgusted.

I'm as giddy as a school girl.

[2wiceBorn]

I like him. He has more sense than Royal, tackles things head on and isn't afraid to confront the problems in French society.

[Temudjin]

At 5/7/07 05:31 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:

At 5/7/07 04:47 AM, Temudjin wrote: As a french guy, I'm not as enthousiastic as you seem to be.

Well it's your country. Beyond everything, I'm just happy Chirac is gone and Royal isn't in power.

I don't consider myself as an "Anti-American" or something, but rather as an Anti-Sarko.

This man was working for about 5 years in government, promising to "save France from scum", with kinda irrespectuous way of talking to people living in unfavorized suburbs.

You need to realize that by 'scum' he is referring to people who commit crime and are the people who burned cars, attacked police, an went on violent riots.

Not only them, unfortunately, i live in one of those suburbs, and see what happens.
The suburbians way of acting shall not be right, but try to understand that when you live in poverty since you're born, that government doesn't give a damn about you, neither a chance to get out of there, that you are put apart when tryin' to get a proper job, because of where you're coming from... you could desperate and act less wisely. When you born here, you have little chances to get out : when you're 14 y.o., in a class with about 50 students in, you have choice between becoming mecanician or baker. and if you expect to get to high school, you still have to help your family, who's tryin' to survive, by havin' a job, and havin' to pay in the same time your scolarity fees. After you managed to get in the high school (kinda hard) you still have to find a job. And don't expect to be seen equally by the employers, in a majority of cases.

He wasn't basing it on fear of immigrants, he was basing it on concern for the enormous problem certain parts of the country that have become lawless due to the lack of INTEGRATION into French society. It's not that the people are immigrants, it's that people w

I won't get back on it, but when you're considered as suburbians are, and after that, when Sir Sarkozy comes and tells you "love france or leave it", I don't agree. I like France, but I would love it if everyone could have a real chance.

Repression? You mean discontinuing to reward un-inegrated immigrants with tax money instead of "preventing" them from committing crime by allowing them to do nothing while living on welfare like has been done in France?

It's obvious the former policies of giving immunity to immigrants didn't work. Sarkozy's not about mistreating immigrants, he's about refusing to allow political correctness to handicap France from doing what it has to do to fix the problems it has. He is an immigrant himself you know...
He didn't refer to them all as uncivilized, he only referred to well.. the UNCIVILIZED people who happen to be immigrants as 'scum' due to the fact that they commit large amounts of crime, riot violently, and refuse to integrate into French society. He was addressing the part of France that basically just runs amok unchecked all while living off of the tax money paid by law abiding French people who work hard.

But how many people come in France in order not to die in their own country ? Be sure they're not parasits, as some should think. And sending them back to starve where we won't see them isn't in my way of thinking
To sum up, there's about 12 years that we're workin' on a repression policy, and crime raised up. Maybe it's time to try something else ?

(Here's my advice, sorry if I can't explain myself better, but english isn't my native language, and it's kinda hard to say everything I would

[Temudjin]

At 5/7/07 05:56 AM, 2wiceBorn wrote: I like him. He has more sense than Royal, tackles things head on and isn't afraid to confront the problems in French society.

Tryin' to split people isn't solvin' problems, to me ;) That's demagogy

[Temudjin]

I don't agree with his way of doing, but we're in democracy (I think), so there's nothing more to do that wait and see... Even if I'm quite sure he'll mess up...

[WyldWeaverWyrm]

At 5/6/07 09:42 PM, Boltrig wrote: From the early news reports hes setting his sights a little high, I reckon. Did you see the amount of targets he set for himself to achieve within 100 days!

Hes either going to fail with a few of them and look daft or manage them and then run out of steam after his 100 days.

Im not sure which one would be the better scenario

I the former is the case then he wouldn't look any worse than Nancy "Bela" Pelosi. Watch out, she wants to suck your wallet!

[Cheekyvincent]

this new guy is just gonna cause lots of trouble

[WolvenBear]

At 5/6/07 07:47 PM, AapoJoki wrote: Well, Chirac was a conservative as well ....

Record scratching noise.

Um, no, sorry. Chirac was a liberal socialist. He shortened the work week, signed a law that made it almost impossible to fire employees, etc. The man was not, repeat NOT, a conservative.

At 5/7/07 04:47 AM, Temudjin wrote:

This man was working for about 5 years in government, promising to "save France from scum", with kinda irrespectuous way of talking to people living in unfavorized suburbs.

The scum he was referring to are Muslim rioters. There is no need to be respectful to scum that are setting cars ablaze and attacking innocent people.

He has based his campaign on fear of the other, fear of the immigrant, with the help of the medias (he has a lot of close friends workin' for him in those medias, what a luck, huh ?).

He based his campaign on smaller government with less handouts cause the welfare state is crippling France, and PROTECTING THE CITIZENRY from Muslim rioters.

He based all his work as minister on repression rather than prevention. And I personnally can't accept it.

That's because you seem very foolish indeed.

That's because of this way of showing suburbians, immigrants and all other different people as scum and uncivilized people, that J.M. Le Pen (an extremist) was close to become president 5 years ago.
He did it again this time, and you've the result.
I'm... disgusted.

Um, except he never referred to anyone except the rioters as scum. You putting ALL immigrants into the same category as the rioters shows your subtle bigotry against immigrants.

At 5/7/07 06:56 AM, Temudjin wrote: Not only them, unfortunately,

Yes, only them.

The suburbians way of acting shall not be right, but try to understand that when you live in poverty since you're born, that government doesn't give a damn about you, neither a chance to get out of there, that you are put apart when tryin' to get a proper job, because of where you're coming from... you could desperate and act less wisely. When you born here, you have little chances to get out : when you're 14 y.o., in a class with about 50 students in, you have choice between becoming mecanician or baker. and if you expect to get to high school, you still have to help your family, who's tryin' to survive, by havin' a job, and havin' to pay in the same time your scolarity fees. After you managed to get in the high school (kinda hard) you still have to find a job. And don't expect to be seen equally by the employers, in a majority of cases.

Yet, when the government tells these people to stop suckling the government teet (which is what keeps them impoverished), they riot, burn things, and kill people. Yea. No sympathy here. I'd have ordered the police to shoot on sight.

I won't get back on it, but when you're considered as suburbians are, and after that, when Sir Sarkozy comes and tells you "love france or leave it", I don't agree. I like France, but I would love it if everyone could have a real chance.

He didn't say that. He said you don't have to live in France, but if you come here, you will respect the laws and you will assimilate, become a productive member of society. There is no reason in the world for any intelligent person to be against that.

But how many people come in France in order not to die in their own country ? Be sure they're not parasits, as some should think. And sending them back to starve where we won't see them isn't in my way of thinking

They are parasites. They come in, demand free money, and when they're told to do something for it, they incite violence. Most of them come to France to avoid work in their home country.

To sum up, there's about 12 years that we're workin' on a repression policy, and crime raised up. Maybe it's time to try something else ?

And that's what Sarkosy's doing! Hooray!

[AapoJoki]

At 5/10/07 03:11 PM, WolvenBear wrote: Um, no, sorry. Chirac was a liberal socialist.

Excuse me... Chirac was a member of the UMP party, the same one Sarkozy is a member of.

[WolvenBear]

At 5/10/07 03:48 PM, AapoJoki wrote:

At 5/10/07 03:11 PM, WolvenBear wrote: Um, no, sorry. Chirac was a liberal socialist.

Excuse me... Chirac was a member of the UMP party, the same one Sarkozy is a member of.

And Bush is a Republican. That like totally negates his open borders policy, his love of social spending (which is much higher than spending under Clinton), and being the guy who signed an end to racial profiling (among other things).

You know, so Chirac having different positions from the new guy...hell that doesn't matter.
THEY'RE FROM THE SAME PARTY!

[Temudjin]

At 5/10/07 03:11 PM, WolvenBear wrote:

The scum he was referring to are Muslim rioters. There is no need to be respectful to scum that are setting cars ablaze and attacking innocent people.

He based his campaign on smaller government with less handouts cause the welfare state is crippling France, and PROTECTING THE CITIZENRY from Muslim rioters.

That's because of this way of showing suburbians, immigrants and all other different people as scum and uncivilized people, that J.M. Le Pen (an extremist) was close to become president 5 years ago.
He did it again this time, and you've the result.
I'm... disgusted.

Um, except he never referred to anyone except the rioters as scum. You putting ALL immigrants into the same category as the rioters shows your subtle bigotry against immigrants.

Bigotry against my own family, yeah, right you are, no doubt about it;)

I'd have ordered the police to shoot on sight.

...why am I not surprised while readin' it ?...

Your point of view. You don't live here, and I could unders

They are parasites. They come in, demand free money, and when they're told to do something for it, they incite violence. Most of them come to France to avoid work in their home country.

I prefer not answering to such ways of talking. No point.

And that's what Sarkosy's doing! Hooray!

Wait and see, but replace repression by more blind repression isn't what I call "tryin' something else"... Maybe because I'm surrenderin' French, huh ?

Just a question... Why the hell are you seein' musilms everywhere ? Mr S. said some bullshit, but nothing about musilms or about kinda musilm conspiracy in Paris' suburbs. As always, there's a minority (rioters) that gives a bad image of a whole community (suburbians, musilms...).
I don't support rioters, of course, but considering a whole community as scum, like Mr S. does, isn't the way a President shall act.

I went on this topic to give my p.o.v. as French resident, not to convince people in any way, but I'm afraid not to master english well enough to tell everything I would ;)

[WolvenBear]

At 5/10/07 07:47 PM, Temudjin wrote: ...why am I not surprised while readin' it ?...

Because I feel that scum who prey on the innocent should be shot.

Wait and see, but replace repression by more blind repression isn't what I call "tryin' something else"... Maybe because I'm surrenderin' French, huh ?

But Sarzoki's not engaging in "repression" (I assume you mean oppression). It's called law and order. You set cars on fire and attack innocent people you go to jail.

Just a question... Why the hell are you seein' musilms everywhere ? Mr S. said some bullshit, but nothing about musilms or about kinda musilm conspiracy in Paris' suburbs. As always, there's a minority (rioters) that gives a bad image of a whole community (suburbians, musilms...).
I don't support rioters, of course, but considering a whole community as scum, like Mr S. does, isn't the way a President shall act.

Except he doesn't call a whole community scum. He calls RIOTERS scum.

I went on this topic to give my p.o.v. as French resident, not to convince people in any way, but I'm afraid not to master english well enough to tell everything I would ;)

Your stubborn refusal to accept that he's also not talking about you when he calls the rioters scum hurts you.

[katana-klan]

At 5/10/07 07:47 PM, Temudjin wrote:

At 5/10/07 03:11 PM, WolvenBear wrote:

Um, except he never referred to anyone except the rioters as scum. You putting ALL immigrants into the same category as the rioters shows your subtle bigotry against immigrants.

Bigotry against my own family, yeah, right you are, no doubt about it;)

You can always go back to your country of origin. In fact I think you should. You left your country seeking for a better life and what have you got? You are still poor, and probably quite poor even among the poors. Did leaving your coutnry solve anything? Obviously not. Yet you riot in France and burn cars. Why the fuck you don't go back to your country of origin and riot there?

[Anti901]

At 5/6/07 06:55 PM, SomeNick wrote: Well, since Sarkozy won the French Presidential Elections, I am opening this thread for debate.

Personally I think it will be a good change for France. Sarkozy is younger than most previous French presidents and seems to have very good ideas to make of France a more advanced country, as well as seeking to increase the economy by promoting more industries and work, which will probably help the salary of people a lot. He also plans to make of France a safer, law abiding place.

Well, the space for debate is open.

Personally, I don't think very highly of the French. That's all I'm going to say to avoid making an ass of myself.

[Alphabit]

It's funny, in Australia, we had quite some coverage on the French elections.
And they interviewed a French worker and he said something like this:
"I'm voting for Royal because I don't want Sarkozy to win. If he wins, it will mean that we won't work when they [the companies which employ them] don't need our services."

I was like K, now that's the French mindset... I mean OF COURSE they shouldn't employ you if they don't need you, they're not going to to pay you to sit your ass on a bench and wait! Now, that's why the French economy hasn't been doing so well in the past few years.

[Bolo]

At 5/10/07 08:01 PM, WolvenBear wrote:

At 5/10/07 07:47 PM, Temudjin wrote: I went on this topic to give my p.o.v. as French resident, not to convince people in any way, but I'm afraid not to master english well enough to tell everything I would ;)

Your stubborn refusal to accept that he's also not talking about you when he calls the rioters scum hurts you.

This Temudjin guy isn't trying to make the case that he is being personally insulted by his government, rather, that he doesn't think it's teh government's right to refer to ANY demographic as "scum". No matter what actions they've taken. It doesn't solve the problems in any way, and may in fact serve to worsen the tensions. Besides, is it so wrong to stand up for the rights of the minority when it's being repressed by the majority?

[jhonyrestrepo]

At 5/27/07 03:28 AM, Bolo wrote: that he doesn't think it's teh government's right to refer to ANY demographic as "scum".

Well I have the impression that this kind of things are happening more and more around the world, not just France. People from all sides hate other sides so much that they are willing to support their respective leaders no matter what an ass he or she is. Royal wasn't much better, she was basically threatening to destroy private industry in France, which would, well, cause even more unemployment.

[Temudjin]

At 5/26/07 11:22 PM, katana-klan wrote: You can always go back to your country of origin. In fact I think you should. You left your country seeking for a better life and what have you got? You are still poor, and probably quite poor even among the poors. Did leaving your coutnry solve anything? Obviously not. Yet you riot in France and burn cars. Why the fuck you don't go back to your country of origin and riot there?

Sorry to tell you this, but I've got the french nationality. My grandfather went from Slovenia after WW2, in order to work. And he integrated.
But it doesn't means it was the case of everyone.
I don't consider myself as poor (neither especially rich, quite average), in this I've been quite lucky.
But have been lucky isn't enough to me to accept mr S.'s way of doing. ;)

[D2Kvirus]

There's one thing about Sarkozy: he's good for a compare & contrast with our Dear Leader.

Sarkozy wins the French election, he's in power by the end of the week. Gordon Brown wins the Labout leadership, yet Tony Blair remains in power until the end of his seven-week ego trip (while he bulldozes a ton of acts through).

Sarkozy wins the French election, and will represent France at next weeks' G8 Conference. Gordon Brown wins the Labour leadership, making him British Prime Minister, but Tony Blair will be attending - despite the fact he won't be around three weeks afterwards, so why should anyone listen to him?