Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

---

At 9/8/09 10:17 AM, TheAdd wrote: WHAT??? The union has been around for ages, you really want it gone; WTF!.

Invalid point. Unions can last for centuries, even millennia, and still be dissolved for one reason or another; the Roman civilization lasted almost a thousand years before splitting apart . Britain is only 200 years old; age is of no consequence.

Then what happens to the stunning flag we have?

I agree with Jon on this one; it'll probably stay the same. The navy blue field doesn't absolutely have to represent Scotland, nor does the white around the St. Patrick's cross have to be St. Andrew's cross. Easier just to leave it as is.

Wales can't cope alone, plus whats wrong with being a united place?

Nothing - if it serves your interests. Consider the American Civil War; in primary school (and secondary to an extent), Americans are taught that it was about slavery. This is simply not true; President Lincoln didn't use slavery as part of the Northern stance until 1863, halfway into the Civil War. The South seceded because they felt underrepresented in the federal government; from their point of view all the attention was directed to industrial states in the North.

It's the same deal with Scotland, as well as Wales and Northern Ireland. It makes sense to remain part of the British union, if it is more beneficial to the people within it to do so; but if Scotland would be better off as a sovereign state, then it is their right as the citizens and people of that land to determine their own destiny. If a reasonable argument can be provided in favor of an independent Scotland, then nothing should stand in its way except a vote against it.

And before someone gives me any crap about "You wouldn't say that if it were an American state!" ...yes, I would say it. If Texas seceded tomorrow, I'd be all for it - hell, we might both be better off. (No offense to the Texans.) To me, it's not about how American/British you are or how home-state/Scottish you are - it's about the self-determination of a people.

---

At 9/8/09 05:13 PM, Jon-86 wrote: The UK will either keep the union flag as is or remove the St Andrews cross from it. Finally Wales has nothing to do with it, if they wasn't to become independent then that's up to them. Their are a number of reasons why I don't like the union, some personal some political. But is a modern world with globalisation in place Scotland could benefit going it alone.

Except you wouldn't be going it alone. You'd be joining the EU, and possibly even adopting the Euro if I remember correctly, cause you sure as hell can't use British Pound Sterling any more if you go independent. So you'd be leaving one oft ehs trognest currencies in the world either for something of your own design ( Which you wouldn;t have the economic force to back properly) or adopt the Euro. So in all likelhood you'd be going from Pound to Euro... one grouping of nations with a shared economy to another.

You can sort of go it alone, but what does Scotland actually have that the rest of the world needs? Oil? Denmark is predicting its North Sea OIl is going to run out in just over a decade, and as Scotlands Oil is also from the North Sea where does that leave you? You can't use Oil as the basis of your economy, so then what do you use?

Link

You can't compare in tertiary sector businesses with England as England has the Financial capital of the world and banking and 'business' is what most 1st world countries economies are base don these days.

England has one of the the financial sectors in the world. London. Edinburgh and Glasgow dont even come close.

Theirs that and also some things are done differently in Scotland which are just better for the average person.

Such as?

I think it would be a good move if our own government actually had the same authority as the British one instead of being a subset of Westminster.

You don't even make full use of the powers that you have in the Scottish Parliament, so if you don't want to be a subset, you need to stop acting like one. Scottish nationalists are in power in Scotland, and have they even really stood up to the British government on anything? if they ahve i've not come across it.

Has your parliament even changed any taxes that the British government has instigated? Cause they've got the power and the authority to do it.

---

Before we take the economics argument any further, let's introduce a little source material...

---

At 9/9/09 07:18 AM, Tri-Nitro-Toluene wrote: Except you wouldn't be going it alone. You'd be joining the EU, and possibly even adopting the Euro if I remember correctly, cause you sure as hell can't use British Pound Sterling any more if you go independent. So you'd be leaving one oft ehs trognest currencies in the world either for something of your own design ( Which you wouldn;t have the economic force to back properly) or adopt the Euro. So in all likelhood you'd be going from Pound to Euro... one grouping of nations with a shared economy to another.

You do know Scottish money exists don't you? Our own banks produce it and its an instant argument with shopkeepers in England who believe they can refuse to accept it. But I honestly would not mind having the Euro! It is a strong currency and will continue to grow. Its not impossible to imagine that if Scotland did have the Euro that it would one day be worth more than the pound. Just like the pound is now worth more than the once all powerful dollar.

You can sort of go it alone, but what does Scotland actually have that the rest of the world needs? Oil? Denmark is predicting its North Sea OIl is going to run out in just over a decade, and as Scotlands Oil is also from the North Sea where does that leave you? You can't use Oil as the basis of your economy, so then what do you use?

As someone has pointed out, Oil isn't the only thing were useful for. This argument has also been done to death during the election as if Oil was the only thing we have worth anything. I have never argued the point that money from the north sea would see us well into the future. But I will talk about this later.

You can't compare in tertiary sector businesses with England as England has the Financial capital of the world and banking and 'business' is what most 1st world countries economies are base don these days.
England has one of the the financial sectors in the world. London. Edinburgh and Glasgow dont even come close.

What about all the other countries in the world, how do they function? London might be the financial capital. And I am sure almost all countries of the world trade their. I honestly don't see your point your making here unless the British government have said they would form a trade embargo if Scotland became independent...

Theirs that and also some things are done differently in Scotland which are just better for the average person.

Such as?

Lots of things really, they range from the trivial to the more important. Free higher education! Not entirely their yet but I have had the opportunity to go to uni, took it, and now have a degree. A guy in my position 10 years ago would not have had that opportunity. Because it was out of reach of people who couldn't afford it! So I can say I literally owe the Scottish government the better standard of living that I enjoy now! Or you could take the smoking ban for example. While lots of people are against it, I think its a good step towards improving the countries health.

Oh and if you have a car you will love this one. Clamping or even getting your car impounded for parking on private land (even if you didn't realise) this doesn't exist in Scotland as the Scottish government decided that such clamping amounted to extortion and theft and banned the entire practice :)

I could go on...

You don't even make full use of the powers that you have in the Scottish Parliament, so if you don't want to be a subset, you need to stop acting like one. Scottish nationalists are in power in Scotland, and have they even really stood up to the British government on anything? if they ahve i've not come across it.

I have to say the Labour government with the exception of dragging us into an illegal war that has nothing to do with us, and a few other things, have done ok in the broader sense. And they have let the devolved government do its thing. But you didn't really make a point here. Theirs powers they don't use and theirs powers they don't have.

If their was ever a Westminster policy that would have a direct and negative impact on us then they would challenge that. Say the torries get in next election and decide to do what they done in the 80s, have another stab at running the country that way. The devolved government would object and would probably be ignored.

Has your parliament even changed any taxes that the British government has instigated? Cause they've got the power and the authority to do it.

Yes, you've not heard about it because the changes made are insignificant to be honest, that's what it amounts to. But the current way that's handled was agreed upon before the devolved government formed. Here's a proposal on how it should be changed http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/
2009/02/23092643/3

At 9/9/09 08:50 AM, CrabPope wrote: A) Scotland has historically had the highest unemployment in the UK

Its also had widespread poverty in it's cities, all the more reason for change.

D) lose access to universities like Oxford and Cambridge

Scotland has its own universities, good ones at that. You say that like Oxford and Cambridge are the only universities in the UK...! I wouldn't even go to either of them, anyone who has gone to university knows its about self development as well as learning how to educate yourself on your own subject of interest. The universities main goal is to support that development with resources.

Just because a university is exclusive means nothing to be honest. It doesn't make it any better. Academics in Oxford don't snub Cambridge because their research if from a different institution.

At 9/9/09 05:15 PM, Dawnslayer wrote: Before we take the economics argument any further, let's introduce a little source material...

Ok so the main argument has been "you won't have oil, what will you do?" and I was actually going to mention the computing/software industry, which just happens to be my industry. It is a global industry and is also a string industry in this country.

One of many industries that will work towards supporting the country even when the oil runs out. Or the renewable energy industry which has seen many new technologies beeing pioneered in Scotland because we have the perfect climate to test them.

Really it is only the old industries like shipbuilding (which is still active) and oil etc that are slowing down, but their are new ones emergin that will take their place. One of my personal favourites being the games industry...

Now to wrap this up because its late, I'm running out of characters and think this is a lengthy enough reply. Nobody can predict the future. And I see it as independence being a way forward for the country I live in, where I'm better represented by a government who can focus on the things that matter to me. Without having to get permission from westminster before they make any important changes.