-- No-Fault Racism: A Debate --

[JMHX]

In the time of my absence I have been allowed the opportunity to view people in just a few of many social interactions and settings. One of the most candid was on a trip to the mall; melting pot of the 13-18 year-old age bracket of Indianapolis. Here, at a mall anyway, racism, war, and politics have minimal footholds in a place so full of business.
However, I noticed something that was far larger in scale, so large that I had hardly noticed it before. As I wandered into D.E.M.O. against the advice of my dear friend, the first greeting I got was a cheery "'Sup, n-----? Anything I can help you with?" I said I was just looking and that's all that came from it, but it got an idea in my head: no-fault racism.

Schools, malls, even in the workplace, this no-fault racism is quite clearly evident. People of the same group using terms which would be deemed offensive or inappropriate by someone of another group. Then, as if by some magic of debate-forming power, I heard a young white man say nearly that exact same thing to a black man he apparently knew. A brawl ensued the likes of which I have never seen before.
That is what brings me to this debate. What are your views on not only the use of that telltale N word among African Americans, but the ongoing 'racism' of only certain groups being allowed certain words in their cultural vocabulary? In the ideals of good debate, I will withhold my view until others have spoken.

[Lyddiechu]

even though i am probably inherently racist by saying this.... i think it is ok for black people to call one another nigga while its not ok for white people to do that... just like its ok for my friends and i to fuck around with each other saying "kike" and shit like that.. but if any non-jew said that to me i would have a problem.

so, ideally your race should not give you license to use certain words, but the truth is it does. my only justification is its the way a race thats discriminated against reclaims that word for their own use... turning "n*gger" into "nigga" im guessing could be seen as a black persons way of taking back their past?

[JMHX]

"Reclaiming the Past" is an often used debate in a subject such as this, and for the most part I believe that is a perfectly logical and valid reason.

However, I don't understand the use of the word "Cracker" by a white person against another white person. Maybe it's just that style, to wear the clothes and act as if you just don't care what people think. It's for the same reason that "Cracker" used by African Americans against Whites doesn't work - they were never the dominant, oppressive race over whites.

It all has to do with power.

[Lyddiechu]

amen brotha.. just wondering what race are you?

[JMHX]

At 5/20/03 10:49 AM, Lyddiechu wrote: amen brotha.. just wondering what race are you?

According to the census, White non Hispanic.

[Nirvana13666]

No-fault racism....good one JudgeMeHarsh.

I think no matter what people say as long as No-fault racism is used amongst their same race then there will always be an excuse for a racist to use it. Why would you wanna degrade you own race by using words that stemmed out of hate anyway. I know many do it unintentionally but don’t complain about it if you’re not going to contribute to the solution.

[Shih]

Growing up in Japan I heard quite a few racial slurs thrown my way. While hearing somene say N****r may cause me to flinch if the hatred isn't behind it, well they can say what they want.

[Ted-Easton]

The use of the word n----- by blacks as a term of endearment is not as widespread as it may seem. It is confined to the vernacular of the ghetto blacks, which make up a small minority of the "african american" population.

To the vast majority of the black community, the word n----- carries the weight of centuries of slavery and oppression, and is still considered to be a racial slur, regardless of the color of the tongue from which it originates.

The so called ghetto community is not one to be taken lightly, and also not one to be taken seriously. They are a heavy handed group, because of their numbers, but cannot be taken seriously because of, not only their "lingo", which contains the words "dog, home-boy, bee-otch" and a number of sexual references, but also because of the lack of truthfulness in their words.
It may be that a percentage of the truly are from the ghetto, and have lived a hard life. But to say this is true for a majority of the black comunity is a lie intended to boost the popularity of black-generated music. Many blacks come from average-income families, begin rapping about a falsified ghetto life, and then make millions.

I don't know how I got to talking about rap, but every subject seems to lead to it eventually.

[bumcheekcity]

At 5/20/03 03:33 PM, Ted_Easton wrote: The use of the word n----- by blacks as a term of endearment is not as widespread as it may seem. It is confined to the vernacular of the ghetto blacks, which make up a small minority of the "african american" population.

Actually, most blacks, in my area at least, talk inn the lingo which i find INCREDIBLY irritating. *Glares at H-Dawg* It's not that i have a problem with them talking like that, It's that they refuse to talk any other way. I have been in offices where young black men (18-25 y/old) have gone for their interviews and spoken like that. It is only the unintelligible ones though, the clever black students talk in proper english.

I don't know how I got to talking about rap, but every subject seems to lead to it eventually.

You can't spell crap without rap.

[Jlop985]

I'm hispanic, and I don't go around calling other people sp*cs. Then again, I've heard hispanic people I know using the N word amongst themselves as if they were black. I am never using that word, because of the negative connotations.

[JMHX]

At 5/20/03 04:32 PM, Jlop985 wrote: I'm hispanic, and I don't go around calling other people sp*cs. Then again, I've heard hispanic people I know using the N word amongst themselves as if they were black. I am never using that word, because of the negative connotations.

What I've noticed more and more is that the hispanic and asian cultures around here are slowly adopting the ghetto black personality. They all sag the same way and use the exact same lingo.

Eh, it bothers me.

[Freakapotimus]

It reminds me of an Hispanic comedian I say on Comedy Central stand-up a few months back. He was joking about the "beaners" and the "spics" and the audience laughed. He talked about his father learning English and the audience laughed. Later in his act he mentioned something about blacks eating fried chicked and watermelon, and the audience got very quiet. So he said "Eh, you didn't like that, but you did like the bit about the beaners."

So, in effect, he was pointing out what JMHX was: people can make fun of their own race, ethnicity, religion, sexual preference, but not about others' (which would be racist).

I hear the black kids on the bus in the morning yelling "n---a" to each other, I hear gay men I know calling each other "fag" before shaking hands or hugging, I hear teenage girls yelling "What's up, bitch?" and they're not fighting. Yet, if one straight white male said any of those words to any of those people, he'd be in a crapload of trouble.

Words are just words, and they mean only what we want them to mean. Some people feel threatened by words, but some of those words had been used to discriminate others for so long that there can be two ways to break the cycle: let everyone use those words in non-threatening, non-discriminating way; forbid everyone from using those words.

[FUNKbrs]

Living in the "Dirty South" North Memphis TN, I've seen "no-fault racism" (this is a misnomer, if its truly racist, someone is at fault) ever since I was around 7 years old. I've seen white people call black people "my nigga" as often as I've had black people refer to me are "my nigga". The truth is that "nigga" is the new "dude", especially in the South.
There is a difference between blacks who use this term, and those who do not. Blacks who do not are trying to fit in with whites, while blacks who do are proud of being "niggas" and take it as proof of their ability to endure hardship and discrimination. To say that such a world is inherently racist is ludicrous. People are racists, words are simply used to express the sentiment.

The new slang is always badmouthed by out of it old cronies (like people who discuss politics over a BBS, myself included). I think we should just embrace the change, as it signifies a new openmindedness about race.

[Nirvana13666]

At 5/21/03 10:38 AM, FUNKbrs wrote: Living in the "Dirty South" North Memphis TN, I've seen "no-fault racism" (this is a misnomer, if its truly racist, someone is at fault) ever since I was around 7 years old. I've seen white people call black people "my nigga" as often as I've had black people refer to me are "my nigga". The truth is that "nigga" is the new "dude", especially in the South.
There is a difference between blacks who use this term, and those who do not. Blacks who do not are trying to fit in with whites, while blacks who do are proud of being "niggas" and take it as proof of their ability to endure hardship and discrimination. To say that such a world is inherently racist is ludicrous. People are racists, words are simply used to express the sentiment.

The new slang is always badmouthed by out of it old cronies (like people who discuss politics over a BBS, myself included). I think we should just embrace the change, as it signifies a new openmindedness about race.

I didn't think of it like that and to be honest that is exactly what has to be done..people are already accepting it. But dude is always a better word to use than "Nigga" and I am intelligent enough to know when it is used in a racist manner. Words are words and they mean nothing unless there is something behind it.

[JMHX]

Still, in my view, becoming desensitized to hate, even if it's toned down to the level of two people of the same race saying it to each other, is a very bad thing. If we become indifferent to it, even in its smallest forms, then there is nothing to stop it from coming back again in its fullest force, as we saw with feelings toward Arabs during and after September 11th and the Afghanistan campaign.

[FUNKbrs]

At 5/23/03 09:06 AM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: Still, in my view, becoming desensitized to hate, even if it's toned down to the level of two people of the same race saying it to each other, is a very bad thing. If we become indifferent to it, even in its smallest forms, then there is nothing to stop it from coming back again in its fullest force, as we saw with feelings toward Arabs during and after September 11th and the Afghanistan campaign.

is the phrase "my nigga" really a form of hate? The word stems from the latin "negro" meaning black. Where is the hate in that? If anything, the word has been ripped from it's honest roots by racists and become sullied in the common mind. But how is any of that the word's fault? Should we penalize a perfectly good word because of evil people? Punishing a word is preposterous! Punish the racists, not the english language.

[JMHX]

Funk, I know even you can't honestly say that the words "nigga" and "n*gger" are not hateful. The words have become just as powerful as the people who used them.

[BullRat]

At 5/20/03 05:44 PM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: What I've noticed more and more is that the hispanic and asian cultures around here are slowly adopting the ghetto black personality. They all sag the same way and use the exact same lingo.

Eh, it bothers me.

Oh... I've noticed this disturbing transfomation too. And it doesn't just bother me, it pisses me the fuck off! I mean, why is it alright for the Hispanic and Asian to adopt the Black culture and image, but it is concidered disgraceful for a White person to do the same??? Personally, I think we should all stick to our own culture and image, but that's just me. It seems to me that people are just losing pride in their own cultures. And, gods, that annoys the hell out of me! >.<

[Alejandro1]

At 5/20/03 03:33 PM, Ted_Easton wrote: The use of the word n----- by blacks as a term of endearment is not as widespread as it may seem. It is confined to the vernacular of the ghetto blacks, which make up a small minority of the "african american" population.

The term African American is itself an offensive term. By using that term, we might offend our Arabic friends from Egypt and our Caucasian friends from Moracco. Instead, use a less offensive term such as Sub-Saharan African Americans.

[JMHX]

Hemispherians.

[TheShrike]

At 5/23/03 09:17 AM, FUNKbrs wrote: is the phrase "my nigga" really a form of hate? The word stems from the latin "negro" meaning black. Where is the hate in that? If anything, the word has been ripped from it's honest roots by racists and become sullied in the common mind.

True. It has been sullied, but the fact is that some dammage cannot be undone.

When you speak, other people hear you. It does not matter what you meant, but rather the meaning that they pull from the words you speak.

Here is a postcard from around 1914. This was before WW2...
A Brief history lesson about the swastika...

[FUNKbrs]

At 5/23/03 02:18 PM, JudgeMeHarshX wrote: Funk, I know even you can't honestly say that the words "nigga" and "n*gger" are not hateful. The words have become just as powerful as the people who used them.

Yes I can, and yes I do. Words cannot hurt anyone who does not wish to be hurt by them. Anyone claiming to be hurt by a word outside of how it is used is only making a play for attention. A word only holds the power given to it by the speaker and the listener. The word itself is only syllables. You may be hurt by the speaker, or you might revulsed by a concept in your own mind, but a word itself cannot be hurtful.

A good example is profanity. If I call you a "motherfucker", are you immediately insulted? Or are you only insulted if I use it in a particular context? Can I call you a "motherfucker" in jest, and it be funny? Can I not also call you a "motherfucker" with invective and spite? Thus, the word is not to blame, but the way that the word is given and accepted.

[Lyddiechu]

Yes I can, and yes I do. Words cannot hurt anyone who does not wish to be hurt by them.

i can't say i agree with that, funk. its the intention behind the words that matters. i know that by the laws of pure reason i should not be hurt by someone calling me a yid or a kike or spraypainting a swastika on my great-granfather's grave or my family's synagogue or my home.. but i am still hurt and angered by it nonetheless.

since i work for the ADL through my school doing a lot of peer mentoring and seminars and other crap like that, i've had to learn to put aside a lot of personal feelings when dealing with racist/bigoted people. i stand in a classroom and try and get people to think about their words and actions and basically "stop the hate", and then have to go home and supress my violent urges when I read about the resurgence of racism and anti-semetism in modern society. it's the hardest thing in the world to not be a hypocrite... im really trying, i just hope i dont fail.

[TheShrike]

Yes, ignore my post. Ignore it because it's true.

[Lyddiechu]

we all know its true, shrike.

if you look at any ancient art.. most of it has swastikas in it somewhere (slavic, asian, native american, you name it)

[TheShrike]

Not just that, but it's original meaning was something along the lines of 'Peace, Love & Happiness'.

Do you think of peace, love or hapiness when you see a swastika today?

[PreacherJ]

Damn. I never thought Hitler would ever use that symbol to start a big empire of evil. Now I have to go back in time and invest some other symbol of peace, love, and... Beer.

*Hops in time machine*

[House-Of-Leaves]

The swastika was a symbol for peace, and also for purity.

[Kenney333]

See the problem with the whole black guy can say n***** and whitye guy can tthing, is that that in itslf is rasist people its making different social rules for different races, not that white people like myself dont diserve it overall as a race, we really havnt done anything to be proud of, but i dont think we should even think of ourselves as white black asian ect. because that is just another thing that divides society, although it is very hard to ignore ones colour

[FUNKbrs]

At 5/25/03 06:19 PM, Kenney333 wrote: See the problem with the whole black guy can say n***** and whitye guy can tthing, is that that in itslf is rasist people its making different social rules for different races, not that white people like myself dont diserve it overall as a race, we really havnt done anything to be proud of, but i dont think we should even think of ourselves as white black asian ect. because that is just another thing that divides society, although it is very hard to ignore ones colour

more proof of the justice behind the DAG's pro-noob standpoint. Anything that separates the races is racist, not just important things. If one race is right in doing something, all others races should be allowed to do it too.

I don't , however, advocate the concept of "color blindness" mainly because ignoring something about a person is a handicap, ie "blindness". However, racial and cultural differences do not go hand in hand. People adopt the culture of their neighbors, not that of their indigenous origin. To put it in simple terms, its one thing not to treat a person of a different race with the same respect you would treat one of your own (ie a bad thing), but it is quite another to claim that races of people do not exist. Culture and race are independent of one another, and to make cultural distinctions based on race is, well, stupid.