The right to exist-- (Zion)

[fli]

(You can skip this part and get down to the real question at the bottom in the bold.)

I don't know much about Isreal.
But my teacher was a huge huge HUGE bitch with me. (Holocaust class...)

Because I asked a question.
In a student presentation, the people said, "Isreal was given to them after the Holocaust." The presentation was about Holocaust denial and the reasons behind it. They used the Iran conference as an example how denying the Holocaust would be an example for political gain. (Denial would invalidate the "gift.")

Well, for me at least...
Gifts imply that somebody gave the gift. So I asked this, "Who gave the gift."

It was an uncomfortable question and at first the teacher went on with a long winded and very much evasive response dealing with scriptural precedent. When I said, "So God was the one who gave the gift."

There was moment of eyebrow raising everywhere... then a minute of more long winded responses... and people saying they agreeing that Isreal had a right to exist. We got off from those students' presentations.

What really upsetted them when I said that this sounds sort of like Manifest Destiny and that I don't agree....

Talk about a dark cloud loaming over my head!
When the presentation turned about me I got seriously pissed. They said, "People who deny the right to exist also deny the Holocaust." And people were giving me the evil eye.

Though a major bitch, my teacher at last saved me from the spotlight and became fair with me when she said, "People don't necesarily deny the Holocaust if they don't believe in the right to exist."

In my mind, there's no doubt that the people born there now can call Isreal home.
But I do not agree with the whole idea that God is an acceptable answer for this. It borders on : "God told me so."

And I'm primarily looking at Manifest Destiny as the example and how I base my opinions.

So here's the question:
Is God a valid answer to why Isreal should exist?

[Tancrisism]

I am very torn on the whole Israel issue. What is happening there is fucked up, especially with the displacement of the native Palestinians. That's like the native Americans kicking us out due to their origins being here; punishing us whom are innocent due to our history. It's purely wrong.

But anti-Semites do tend to use this to their own gain, which is another problem.

Keep in mind I'm not an anti-Semite; I'm part Jewish.

[stafffighter]

At 4/27/07 08:10 PM, fli wrote:
So here's the question:
Is God a valid answer to why Isreal should exist?

No. Right, one word posts aren't allowed. Time to tack on a qualifier

I never saw the country of Isreal as a gift as much as it was a consentration point. You can hate your jews down there while we polish europe back up.

[cellardoor6]

Wait, so you don't think that Israelis have the right to live there as immigrants, yet Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese etc.. have a right to live here as immigrants? You don't think that it's the same?

Without God in the equation, think of it this way:

Jews migrated to Israel, they became a majority and therefore they had more political sway than the natives. They used this power to put the country under their own rule instead of the rule of the neighboring Arab countries (Palestine never had it's own govenrment, it was a territory not a nation).

So now Israel as it is today is based on the immigration of foreigners. Yeah, some people use the fact that Jews lived there for thousands of years, or the blessings of God as the justification. But if you look at it purely secularly, it is no different from people immigrating to foreign countries and making it their home.

And right now, Israel is the only real democracy in the Middle East, they have way more religious freedom, political freedom, and human rights than their surrounding countries that have historically ruled over Palestine. Palestinians actually live in Israel and are Israeli citizens, it's a free country unlike the lands under the Palestinian authority. This is far better than the alternative that is embodied by the Palestinian groups like Hamas.

So both rationally, morally, and in some cases religiously, Israel has the right to exist.

[stafffighter]

At 4/27/07 08:43 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Wait, so you don't think that Israelis have the right to live there as immigrants, yet Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese etc.. have a right to live here as immigrants? You don't think that it's the same?

Yes they have a right to exist but the question isn't that. the question is the supossed justification. There were political reasons it made sense. That's it

[YHWH]

I don't see how 'God' is a valid answer to that question. I don't even see how anyone would see that as a logical response....

[cellardoor6]

At 4/27/07 09:10 PM, stafffighter wrote:

At 4/27/07 08:43 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Wait, so you don't think that Israelis have the right to live there as immigrants, yet Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese etc.. have a right to live here as immigrants? You don't think that it's the same?

Yes they have a right to exist but the question isn't that. the question is the supossed justification. There were political reasons it made sense. That's it

Well I find it doubtful that someone would use God as the only justification for the existence of Israel. I've never seen anyone use that as the sole source of their argument, even among evangelicals and admittedly Zionist Jews.

Personally, I DO believe that the reestablishment of Israel was willed by God. But I don't use that as my only argument. If it was in the context of a religious debate, maybe. But not in a purely political debate.

[stafffighter]

At 4/27/07 09:32 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:

Personally, I DO believe that the reestablishment of Israel was willed by God. But I don't use that as my only argument. If it was in the context of a religious debate, maybe. But not in a purely political debate.

Personally I believe people envoke the name of God whenever something they want on that scale requires credibility. And there were credible reasons for the existance of Isreal but seeing as the population is based around a religion it would seem to lack substance without saying God wanted it.

[HighlyIllogical]

There is no supernatural reason unless you want to make this into a religious debate.

Jews came to Mandatory "Palestine," settled the land, got rid of malarial swamps and deserts (made the desert bloom, as it were), then fought and died for the land.

It's Israel, and that's fact.

Other reasons exist too. There was a de-facto state once Jews started to come back, and that's even BEFORE WWII.

[MortifiedPenguins]

Jews have as much right to exist there as any other nation does.

A nations existance, is sadly not based on heriditary land claims and generations of living, it's based on the power of the people living thier and the force they can wield.

Isreal, the UK, the USA for example used this to our benifit against the British, French, Spanish, Mexicans and Russians. We just pulled Manifest Destiny out of our asses(which ma be why you have a negative connentation towards it, being of latino decent and all.)

Really, a nation's existance is based on strength and Isreal so far has it.

[cellardoor6]

At 4/27/07 09:40 PM, stafffighter wrote:

At 4/27/07 09:32 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:

Personally, I DO believe that the reestablishment of Israel was willed by God. But I don't use that as my only argument. If it was in the context of a religious debate, maybe. But not in a purely political debate.

Personally I believe people envoke the name of God whenever something they want on that scale requires credibility.

Um and you find that weird when something as religiously significant as the land if Israel is the point of debate? Interesting, that's like criticizing people for using a religions note when talking about Jesus.

And there were credible reasons for the existance of Isreal but seeing as the population is based around a religion

The population of many countries is based around a religion, in fact the Palestinian territory itself is officially Islamic. The difference is though, in Israel Jews, Christians, Muslims and atheists alike have equal freedom and are all equal citizens. Yes, the majority are Jewish and some of those Jews are Zionists, but unlike their Arab neighbors, they don't force Jewish law on people of minority faiths.

it would seem to lack substance without saying God wanted it.

Hmm thats funny, seeing as how the Palestinians use the fact that they are Islamic as pretty much their sole source of justification for killing Israeli citizens to rid them from the holy land. You can't expect people NOT to talk about God when they are discussing a topic with a vast amount of religious overtones.

But once again, I don't think God needs to be brought up to defend the existence of Israel, that can be done simply by comparing their society to the society of the people who would have sovereignty over the holy land if Israel didn't exist.

[HighlyIllogical]

Good points, Cellar.

But we can't ignore the legal and historical factors, here.

1. Israel worked for peace, we all know this...
2. The Arabs fought with the Nazis.
3. The Mandate and Balfour Declaration recognized the area as nominally Jewish.
4. Palestinian Arab nationalism is new.
5. The idea of "Palestine" is...well...specious (Example: "We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds." - a resolution of the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations)
6. The "Palestinians" are not indigenous...

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 4/27/07 09:59 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:

1. Israel worked for peace, we all know this...

Eveyone works for peace, on thier terms.

2. The Arabs fought with the Nazis.

Actually, since Palestine was British territory at the time, that is useless to the argument. Iran, though, did ally themselves with the Germans.

3. The Mandate and Balfour Declaration recognized the area as nominally Jewish.

Agreed.

4. Palestinian Arab nationalism is new.

debatable because Palestine as a whole has been held and conquered some many times.

5. The idea of "Palestine" is...well...specious (Example: "We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds." - a resolution of the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations)

Agreed.

6. The "Palestinians" are not indigenous...

And the jews living there are. Most people that are living in countries today aren't indigenous. Australians, South Africans, most South and North Americans, even the British.

Thats not really an argument for it.

Seriously, you don't really need to show evidence and claims for the land. They have the stronger force, thats how land claims are made.

[cellardoor6]

At 4/27/07 10:04 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 4/27/07 09:59 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:

1. Israel worked for peace, we all know this...

Eveyone works for peace, on thier terms.

Yeah but the peace the Palestinians want is just the lack of living Jews in the holy land.

2. The Arabs fought with the Nazis.

Actually, since Palestine was British territory at the time, that is useless to the argument. Iran, though, did ally themselves with the Germans.

First of all, Iran is not Arab. Secondly, The Arab countries that have historically been linked to the Palestinian territories DID fight with the Nazis.

4. Palestinian Arab nationalism is new.

debatable because Palestine as a whole has been held and conquered some many times.

Yet it was never an independent nation (except for the times in history it was under Israelite rule). It was never, ever an independent Arab nation. Therefore their Arab Palestinian Nationalism is new, and most of it is based on lies and myths conjured up to pretend they used to have self-rule before the evil Jews came.

[HighlyIllogical]

At 4/27/07 10:04 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 4/27/07 09:59 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:

1. Israel worked for peace, we all know this...

Eveyone works for peace, on thier terms.

That is certainly true, but during partition, the Israelis were willing to take the smaller share of the nation, but the "Palestinians" demanded all of it.

2. The Arabs fought with the Nazis.

Actually, since Palestine was British territory at the time, that is useless to the argument. Iran, though, did ally themselves with the Germans.

Not true. 30,000+ Jews from "Palestine" fought with the British, whereas even the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a Hitler fanatic...I think that shows us something.

4. Palestinian Arab nationalism is new.

debatable because Palestine as a whole has been held and conquered some many times.

The only records of "Palestinian" Arab nationalism come from post WWI. In fact, even then, as I showed with the quote..."Palestinian" nationhood wasn't even considered to be a notion even in 1919.

6. The "Palestinians" are not indigenous...

And the jews living there are.

I'm simply saying that the claim of the "Palestinians" to be indigenous is silly.

Seriously, you don't really need to show evidence and claims for the land. They have the stronger force, thats how land claims are made.

The terrorist-supporters claim to have historical and legal evidence. But, naturally, they don't. And, yes, Israel pwns terrorists, so, yeah. Israel took back its land by force. If the Arabs had beaten Israel in 1948, though, the UN wouldn't have even stopped them...of course, the UN's a bunch of hypocrites...

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 4/27/07 10:10 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:

At 4/27/07 10:04 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 4/27/07 09:59 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:

Yeah but the peace the Palestinians want is just the lack of living Jews in the holy land.

Thats how the cookie crumbles I guess.

2. The Arabs fought with the Nazis.

First of all, Iran is not Arab. Secondly, The Arab countries that have historically been linked to the Palestinian territories DID fight with the Nazis.

I don't care about countries that are linked, I only really care about Palestine for this argument.

Y. Therefore their Arab Palestinian Nationalism is new, and most of it is based on lies and myths conjured up to pretend they used to have self-rule before the evil Jews came.

A country doesn't need to have been a nation at one time or another to have Nationalistic groups within it. Nationalism, as a whole and according to the theory, didn't really appear till the 1800's so there are many nationalist groups that have operated without becoming a nation.

But like I said, it's debatable really and one that I'm really not concerned with.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 4/27/07 10:10 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:

At 4/27/07 10:04 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 4/27/07 09:59 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:

That is certainly true, but during partition, the Israelis were willing to take the smaller share of the nation, but the "Palestinians" demanded all of it.

Can you really blame them though. It may not be the best decesion, or the smartest but it's understandable at the least.

Not true. 30,000+ Jews from "Palestine" fought with the British, whereas even the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was a Hitler fanatic...I think that shows us something.

That a man living 60 years ago was a Hitler fanatic, just like some Americans were, just like some British were and just like some French were.
One is not guilty from association my friend.

4. Palestinian Arab nationalism is new.

The only records of "Palestinian" Arab nationalism come from post WWI. In fact, even then, as I showed with the quote..."Palestinian" nationhood wasn't even considered to be a notion even in 1919.

Like I said, debatable and one that I'm not really interested in.

I'm simply saying that the claim of the "Palestinians" to be indigenous is silly.

So is the one mad by the jews, they seem to forget the Cannanites that were there before.

The terrorist-supporters claim to have historical and legal evidence. But, naturally, they don't. And, yes, Israel pwns terrorists, so, yeah. Israel took back its land by force. If the Arabs had beaten Israel in 1948, though, the UN wouldn't have even stopped them...of course, the UN's a bunch of hypocrites...

Everyone claims everything, jews and palestinians alike, that is questionable. Human nature is human nature.

[fli]

At 4/27/07 08:43 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Wait, so you don't think that Israelis have the right to live there as immigrants, yet Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese etc.. have a right to live here as immigrants? You don't think that it's the same?

No, I said I don't agree people taking away land because God said so.
It's the initiative that I don't agree although I do agree that anyone born on a piece a land and stayed there ought to call it home.

If the Jews had came there legally or illegally, that would have been a whole lot better than to actually displace entire groups of communities. The irony I saw in my holocaust literature class was that... this was happening in Europe too.

How could anyone perpetuate essentially the same hurt that you've just felt on others?

I can't agree that Isreal ought to have done what it did. It would have been much more forgiveable if they went there illegally, but to displace entire communities?

Jews migrated to Israel, they became a majority and therefore they had more political sway than the natives. They used this power to put the country under their own rule instead of the rule of the neighboring Arab countries (Palestine never had it's own govenrment, it was a territory not a nation).

So now Israel as it is today is based on the immigration of foreigners. Yeah, some people use the fact that Jews lived there for thousands of years, or the blessings of God as the justification. But if you look at it purely secularly, it is no different from people immigrating to foreign countries and making it their home.

That's where I see things different.
US immigration (legal or illegal) from other nations (especially from Mexico) are diffrent from Zion and Manifest Destiny. In both instances, Zion and Manifest Destiny dictates that God choose a certain people to rule certain lands. And it's a very hostile take over with several deaths and wars.

Before I go on...
Cellar, I'm not saying illegal immigration is good or bad. I'm saying that immigration is diffrent from taking over a whole nation.

And right now, Israel is the only real democracy in the Middle East, they have way more religious freedom, political freedom, and human rights than their surrounding countries that have historically ruled over Palestine. Palestinians actually live in Israel and are Israeli citizens, it's a free country unlike the lands under the Palestinian authority. This is far better than the alternative that is embodied by the Palestinian groups like Hamas.

So both rationally, morally, and in some cases religiously, Israel has the right to exist.

But at the same time, doesn't Palestine deserve the same right to exist too?

[SteveGuzzi]

At 4/27/07 10:57 PM, fli wrote: It would have been much more forgiveable if they went there illegally

...huh?

[cellardoor6]

At 4/27/07 11:22 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 4/27/07 08:43 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Wait, so you don't think that Israelis have the right to live there as immigrants, yet Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese etc.. have a right to live here as immigrants? You don't think that it's the same?

Putting the Jews in the Mid East because the Western powers "said so", is like giving Mexicans their own country inside of America because Mexico "said so". It's ridiculous.

Hmm thats funny, because that is exactly what is happening right now. We are being forced to be lax on immigration policies and allow illegals to take over large parts of our country because Latin American countries (and European countries) protest when we enforce our immigration laws.

[Tony-DarkGrave]

it should exist

[SyntheticTacos]

Sorry, the Arab countries forfeited their right to own part of Israel when instead of letting the tiny sliver of land the U.N. 1948 Partition plan gave Israel, they decided to go to war over it instead and then get all whiny when Israel won and established its own state.

This was all part of the British mandate of Palestine, so what claim do they have to the land anyways? Why can there be so many official Islamic states that actually enforce Sharia law but no Jewish state that even allows for freedom of religion? Israel is the freest nation in the middle east, excepting the areas of the Palestinian Authority.

The question of God is irrelevant- the Arab-Israeli conflict resulted out of the resistance of some Arab people to allow Jewish people to live in the British mandate of Palestine. It was anti-Semitism plain and simple, Jews had just as much of a right to live in the British mandate of Palestine as they did. So then riots started and after a partition plan was made some people in the Arab leadership decided they just couldn't have Jews living by them so they went to war, and now they complain after they've lost. Terrible things have happened, as do in all wars. But does that mean Israel doesn't have as much of a right to exist as all the other states BASED ON RELIGION? We wouldn't be having the problems of the opression of the Palestinian people if it weren't for intolerant extremist elements. This is not the fault of the Arab people, this is the fault of anti-Semitic extremists in the Arab world. The Palestinian people do not deserve the oppression that has occurred not because of Israel, but because certain anti-Semitic groups insist on initiating violence because of their hatred and bigotry. Don't blame Israel, blame extremism. Blame the terrorists that murder their own people to make Israel look bad.

It's a cycle of violence.

[SyntheticTacos]

At 4/27/07 11:22 PM, Grammer wrote:

At 4/27/07 08:43 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Wait, so you don't think that Israelis have the right to live there as immigrants, yet Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese etc.. have a right to live here as immigrants? You don't think that it's the same?

Putting the Jews in the Mid East because the Western powers "said so", is like giving Mexicans their own country inside of America because Mexico "said so". It's ridiculous.

I don't think anybody should be "putting the Jews" anywhere. I think they should be allowed to go where they want. :)

[Dr-Worm]

At 4/27/07 11:22 PM, Grammer wrote: Putting the Jews in the Mid East because the Western powers "said so", is like giving Mexicans their own country inside of America because Mexico "said so". It's ridiculous.

There is not a single country on Earth that wasn't made a country because someone "said so." And there's a huge difference in your examples. There's no possible advantage to making a Mexican country in the middle of Mexico. Given the circumstances, it made sense to make Israel.

[Lidov]

God is a funny word, because it is used in so many contexts which are seemingly unrelated: In god we trust, god bless America and so on. It also seems like a lot of people are using god as an excuse for many things, such as blowing themselves up in malls, or shooting rockets towards innocent civilians.
But to answer right to the point: no, god is certainly not a legitimate answer to Israel's existence, luckily for us, it is not the only reason. I have yet heard anyone in an Israeli-Palestinian debate uses god as a reason for Israel's existence, I have heard, however, the opposite. I have heard all kinds of Muslims saying that god said to kill the Jews that have takes their lands.

Don't try to be a smart ass (or a smarty marty, because I like how it sounds) and ignore the many other legitimate reasons for Israel's existence (which I have no time to write, because I am dead tired, I have been working like a dog so I will be sleeping like a log HAHAHA).

[Demosthenez]

This thread is filled with such outright stupidity and and ignorance it is sickening.

First of all, stop talking about this "Palestinian Arab Nationalism" bullshit. That is like saying there was no German nationalism back during Prussian times because there was no Germany. It is ridiculous. There was no Palestine because the Middle East, during much of its history, was basically a collection of feudal lords connected to an imperial master. There was little concept of nation states because of this monopolization of power in the region by imperial states. And if anyone denies Arab nationalism they are ignorant fools.

Second, all this talk about who was indienous to the land before the Jews came. That is an easy question, it was the forefathers of the people now known as Palestinians. Just because they didnt have a name for their people didnt mean they didnt live there as people like the hack artist HighlyIlliterate would like you to believe.

Third, you are all on notice.

At 4/27/07 08:43 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: So both rationally, morally, and in some cases religiously, Israel has the right to exist.

You have said you are Lebanese Christian before, right?

I never really understod why you support Israel (if that is true about your origins). Unless one thing. Did your family ever have any connection to the Phalange or other Maronite Christian groups inside Lebanon? And when did your family come over here just out of curiosity?

At 4/27/07 10:10 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: Secondly, The Arab countries that have historically been linked to the Palestinian territories DID fight with the Nazis.

That had more to do with a legacy of colonialism than anything else. And the same is true with Israel, it is a very visible legacy of colonialism that has not made any Arab countries happy

At 4/28/07 12:15 AM, SyntheticTacos wrote: This was all part of the British mandate of Palestine, so what claim do they have to the land anyways?

They lived there?

The question of God is irrelevant- the Arab-Israeli conflict resulted out of the resistance of some Arab people to allow Jewish people to live in the British mandate of Palestine.

See, you guys dont get it. It has nothing to do with Israel, it has to do with COLONIALISM and the embarrassment and subordination nations in the Middle East were forced to endure. For example, both Hizbullah and Khomeini have rejected Israel, in large part, because it is viewed as an imperial extension of AMERICA in the Middle East. I can give you exact quotes if you so wish.

I cant make this more clear: the roots of this conflict have NOTHING TO DO WITH ANTI SEMITISM. It has to do with COLONIALSIM and nothing more.

[SteveGuzzi]

At 4/28/07 12:21 AM, SyntheticTacos wrote:

I don't think anybody should be "putting the Jews" anywhere. I think they should be allowed to go where they want. :)

At 4/28/07 04:13 PM, Grammer wrote: Wasn't it originally the Brits who decided the Jews should go to the land now known as Israel?

The British had been in control of that land since the Ottoman Empire went down with the Germans in WWI. If the Jews wanted to go somewhere else after the Germans went down in WWII then they would have... many went to the US or even Australia instead, like my grandparents and their relatives. The land in the Middle East was chosen by the Jews because of its significance to their cultural identity, and the British let them have it.

Whether you want to get into the religious perspective of it or the ethnic, that land has history and meaning to the people and it's as simple as that. It's dumb for people like Ahmadinejad to ask "but why not somewhere in Germany?" when Germany has no significance to them besides being a major cause of their suffering. The Jews had been dispersed throughout the world with no nation of their own for hundreds and hundreds of years, and it just so happened that the opportunity to reclaim their ancient homeland came as a direct result of the Nazi's failed attempt at eradicating them from the face of the planet.

[SolInvictus]

Britain and some gave the land and a number of high-ranking Palestinians agreed. the people got pissed tried to take Israel back. Israel kicked ass and gained land (it's not often a newly formed nation can not only defend itself but do it so well they gain territory), this happened a few more times (Israel generally giving some land back in between). the two have been pricks towards each other since the beginning and continue to this day. both sides have comitted attrocities. while Israel may originally not have had the "right" to be there it is a strong established nation and therefore should be left.

to sum up both Israel and Palestine can go fuck themselves.

[morefngdbs]

At 4/27/07 08:10 PM, fli wrote: So here's the question:
Is God a valid answer to why Isreal should exist?

;
No Fli, I don't think it is.
I do however believe that Isreal has a right to exist, as do the Palestinians.
I remember while going through religious writings about 5 or 6 years ago that if you go back far enough to like the time of Moses (I believe it was Moses, been awhile) that he had 2 sons from 2 different women. 1 son & that part of the tribe went one way (Isreali's) and the other are now what we call the Palestinians.

So they originated from the same family, looking at the situation today, how sad is that.

[MortifiedPenguins]

At 4/28/07 06:12 PM, Demosthenez wrote:

Third, you are all on notice.

Even me?

Thought you liked me you bastard.