Russians in Estonia

[ArmouredDeath]

What the **** is wrong with russians? In Estonia they started to break into shops, blow them up or burn them to ground, and also punch random estonians JUST BECAUSE WE WANT TO MOVE RUSSIAN SOLDIER STATUE INTO RUSSIA. And now they might start war with us and try to conquer us, just because of some stupid statue!??!

Few pictures:

http://pilt.delfi.ee/picture/535016/
http://pilt.delfi.ee/picture/534120/
http://pilt.delfi.ee/picture/534838/
http://pilt.delfi.ee/picture/531242/
http://pilt.delfi.ee/picture/534110/
http://pilt.delfi.ee/picture/535014/
http://pilt.delfi.ee/picture/534850/
http://pilt.delfi.ee/picture/534906/

If there will be a war, then I am going to move to Finland or maybe to America.

[comi3k]

Russians are troublemakers and always have been.
Stay calm, the E.U. and the international thingy of whatever is called, will not allow Russia to start a war.
Things are not that calm for me, thinking that only ~80km away there is a Russian military base and they have the arsenal (maybe even nuclear) to wipe out my city in case of war.

[AapoJoki]

I doubt Russia is going to start a war against a NATO and EU country simply because of the location of some statue. The Russian-Estonians are overreacting, of course.

[Me-Patch]

At 4/27/07 03:02 PM, ArmouredDeath wrote: If there will be a war, then I am going to move to Finland or maybe to America.

Political refugees always welcome in the good ol USA. Where we have good old fashion freedom of speech, and no one gets killed over statues or politics, just oil.

[SyntheticTacos]

I'm fairly sure not all Russians are that petty.

[ForkRobotik]

A 1/3 of people in estonia are russian, this move by the Estonian government is an insult to history and the contribution Russia gave in ww2. Also, this is about more than a statue, they are also moving graves. I don't blame the russian minority for being pissed.

[ArmouredDeath]

At 4/28/07 12:42 PM, ForkRobotik wrote: A 1/3 of people in estonia are russian, this move by the Estonian government is an insult to history and the contribution Russia gave in ww2. Also, this is about more than a statue, they are also moving graves. I don't blame the russian minority for being pissed.

Yeah but the grave came with statue, we can't move statue and leave grave over there. And we wouldn't move it away if russians wouldn't had starting to scream and break-burn things.

[Buckdich]

At 4/28/07 03:25 PM, ArmouredDeath wrote:

At 4/28/07 12:42 PM, ForkRobotik wrote: A 1/3 of people in estonia are russian, this move by the Estonian government is an insult to history and the contribution Russia gave in ww2. Also, this is about more than a statue, they are also moving graves. I don't blame the russian minority for being pissed.

Yeah but the grave came with statue, we can't move statue and leave grave over there. And we wouldn't move it away if russians wouldn't had starting to scream and break-burn things.

Shut up, you Estonians are no better than the Georgians by trying to piss off Russia to get Western sympathy and money.

[Drag0nSnak3]

At 4/28/07 03:57 PM, MickTheChampion wrote: It's because your pissant government is removing a statue of their forefathers who died killing the Nazis to save your sorry country, that's why.

That's so true. Dudes, wanna know a certain thing? Ok, so it goes like this: we have two schools next to each other, an estonian and a russian (i'm in rus). At friday, 27 th of April, all of our school's lobby windows were broken, along with the doors. They said, that the cameras "strangely" stopped showing or recording until morning. But the thing is: THE ESTONIAN SCHOOL WASN'T EVEN TOUCHED!! That really pisses me off...

[Demosthenez]

At 4/28/07 03:57 PM, MickTheChampion wrote: It's because your pissant government is removing a statue of their forefathers who died killing the Nazis to save your sorry country, that's why.

And then the Russians decided the Estonians, along with a ton of other East European peoples, are to stupid to run their own country and overran their countries with Russian technocrats and encouraged immigration to these countries. In effect, making the native people second class citizens.

Maybe you should check in with people like Lech Wa³êsa and ask them why they think the Russians can go stick their arrogance up their ass. The Russians may have done something good for these countries by fighting the Nazis and eventually defeating them but they more than repaid their kindness with avarice, greed, and outright evil intentions by occupying their countries for generations and subordinating them under the flag of the USSR.

The Estonians dont owe Russians shit anymore. And lets not forget the Russians occupied Estonia even before the start of WWII. Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the joint Soviet/Nazi invasion of Poland. Check out that shit.

[Lagrance]

If it was just a statue. No problem in my opinion. The people wanted it removed for a number of reasons.
1) Lots of fights broke out between russians yelling "fuck estonia" and estonians who were walking by.
2) Every 9th of may (Russian victory holiday) russians came there and talked bout how good it would be if estonia was occupied again.
3) The bronze soldier would of stayed till 8th of may until it was removed but the ravaging broke out so they quickly transported it away into another place.
Yes, the russians did help us beat nazi. If by helping you mean taking estonians and sending them as cannon fodder.
The bronze soldier is an statue for the russians who fought against nazis. We removed a nazi statue that was about fighting russians. Now we cant remove the commie statue?
Yeah, the 50 years of being occupied were really fun, especially the years when estonians were sent to siberia.

[Demosthenez]

At 4/29/07 11:18 AM, MickTheChampion wrote: Would they have been better off being ethnically cleansed under the Nazis?

The Nazis didnt do just kill native populations in case you didnt get the memo. Unless these native populations were Jews or gypsies or retarted.

The countries also benefited under Soviet rule, it wasn't all terror and evil.

OK, you made the argument. Prove it. I think it will be quite hard to prove considering the terrible economic conditions that most of their occupied countries are now in and the total elimination of all these countries political leaders by executing them or sending them to Siberia.

Infact during the Hungarian Revolution the majority of the most ruthless Communist Party officials were Hungarian.

I am unfamiliar with that. I do know, however, it was Red Army soldiers (Russians) who did a majority of the repressing in Hungary who were ordered to do so by technocrats back in Moscow. The Russians were at the head of the USSR and Eastern bloc countries and pushed them about as they pleased, that is not racist, it is fact.

There was no reason to remove that statue of the Red Army Soldier, it was a dick move on the part of the Estonian government and has done nothing other than raising ethnic tensions.

There wouldnt be ethnic tensions if the Russians didnt forcibly immigrate themselves into Estonia. The native Estonians can do whatever they please with their country and if they decide they want to remove the legacy of Russian domination, that is their choice and is not a "dick move" in the slightest. ITS THEIR FUCKING COUNTRY for Christs sake.

And since you so conveniently ignored it, the Soviets occupied Estonia prior to the Germans in WWII. The Soviets were shit to Estonia over their entire history and didnt respect them at all. As such, Estonia owes them nothing in return.

[Jon-86]

Yeah I heard about this in a russian speaking forum im registered in.
But even though moving a statue my seem nothing, its a big thing for russian people.

They are really proud of their military (most of them) also respect is an important thing.
If you show someone disrespect they get their respect back by beating you down.

Say you loved your mum, as im sure most of you do, you moving this statue to them is like someone torturing your mother.

What would you do if someone was torturing your mother or disrespecting her in some way?
You fight and dont stop.

This is the way they think, and thats the reason for their action.
I dont agree with their action but I understand it. Momorials shouldnt be touched.
Its like kicking over someones gravestone.

[Tancrisism]

Apparently the government of Estonia isn't completely up to par either. But I could be wrong.

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/04/369052 .html

[Lagrance]

Russia has removed a lot of their own statues before.
The problem goes way back. History = Fact. And its all because of historial misunderstanding:
After WW2:
Russians (What they say) : Liberated estonia and helped it.
Estonians: They did "help" estonia, but so did the nazis? There was a battle on our soil between em. Basically they did help, but they made it a lot worse too. Thousands of people were sent to siberia in animal wagons. Thats a fact.
Lets say if youre in america, and suddenly kim jong il invaded. One hundred years later, theres a statue of him even if youre independent and strong. Would you want to keep someone who basically killed your parents on your soil?

But the russian media is (the word you use when like the president tells the media what to do) And because of that, only videos of police beating russians ( Who have stolen a lot of store stuff), But they do not show them breaking glasses, turning over cars, or coming out of the store with stolen goods.

Russia has no free speech. Just look at how many magazinists and reporters have been murdered under putins rule.
Its very shameful. Im sure that there are russians that are in shame because of the events in tallinn, and im ashamed that there were estonians also, letting themselves to be provocated and start a fight.

[Tancrisism]

At 5/1/07 12:22 AM, Lastin wrote: Whats the big deal? Its ONLY a statue! i dont get why the Estonian govt want to stir up shit by just removing a statue. Theyre a former soviet state. They know how fanatic them Russkies are. So why stir up shit Estonia?

The current Estonian government aren't very big fans of the USSR, nor Russia for that matter.

[troubles1]

At 4/27/07 03:02 PM, ArmouredDeath wrote:
If there will be a war, then I am going to move to Finland or maybe to America.

please move to Canada, or Britten we have enough of a immigrant problem, besides if you move here you will be forced to learn Spanish.

[RedGlare]

At 4/29/07 06:13 PM, Demosthenez wrote:

At 4/29/07 11:18 AM, MickTheChampion wrote: Would they have been better off being ethnically cleansed under the Nazis?

The Nazis didnt do just kill native populations in case you didnt get the memo. Unless these native populations were Jews or gypsies or retarted.

Oh really? what about lebranshraum(living space) or the eradication of the eastern peoples commonly reffered to under Nazi talk as Slavs.

The countries also benefited under Soviet rule, it wasn't all terror and evil.

OK, you made the argument. Prove it.

Hmmm greater access to technology? more schools and hospital.

I think it will be quite hard to prove considering the terrible economic conditions that most of their occupied countries are now in

The worst of which happened after the Union collapsed.

and the total elimination of all these countries political leaders by executing them

Which would of and did happen under the Nazis or are you forgetting what happened in Poland where anyone with leadership skills even boyscouts where killed and harassed or forced to flee?

or sending them to Siberia.

Can you think of a better place for the Nazis to house the camps needed for ethnic cleansing of the Slav?

Infact during the Hungarian Revolution the majority of the most ruthless Communist Party officials were Hungarian.

I am unfamiliar with that. I do know, however, it was Red Army soldiers (Russians)

Wrong the Red Army was not Russian there where regiments from all over the Soviet Union. Many tank regiments where from the predominantly muslim republics. And according to Hungarian resistence survivors where the most bloodthristy basicly shooting anything not carrying Soviet identification.

who did a majority of the repressing in Hungary who were ordered to do so by technocrats back in Moscow.

What about the backing they got from the Hungarian born leader Rakosi? he personnally orderd the deaths of those who where believed responsible for starting the uprising.

The Russians were at the head of the USSR and Eastern bloc countries and pushed them about as they pleased, that is not racist, it is fact.

What about Romania? there where no Red Army in Romania since the 50's so how where they pushed around by the Russians?

And you also seem to be forgetting that alot of Eastern Europe supported the Axis and commited many atrocities on the Eastern front.

There was no reason to remove that statue of the Red Army Soldier, it was a dick move on the part of the Estonian government and has done nothing other than raising ethnic tensions.

There wouldnt be ethnic tensions if the Russians didnt forcibly immigrate themselves into Estonia. The native Estonians can do whatever they please with their country and if they decide they want to remove the legacy of Russian domination, that is their choice and is not a "dick move" in the slightest. ITS THEIR FUCKING COUNTRY for Christs sake.

Its also the Ethnic Russians country to moron. What your saying is its ok to ignore ethnic minorities because there blood isn't "pure" enough. So the english should be allowed to make the Celtic languages illegal and tear up the sites of importance to the Celtic peoples because theres more of them?

Or are you saying the reverse? are you saying that the Native Americans or the Celts are allowed to impose there will on the rest of the peoples in there countries because they where there first.

And since you so conveniently ignored it, the Soviets occupied Estonia prior to the Germans in WWII. The Soviets were shit to Estonia over their entire history and didnt respect them at all. As such, Estonia owes them nothing in return.

I'll think you'll find that historically Estonia belong to either Russia or the Tartars to begin with laddie.

Besides

You seem to be missing the point the issue isn't with Russia and Estonia. Its with the flagrant disrespect the Estonian government is showing to there own people because there ethnicaly different.

[idiot-monarch]

This has been on the news all the time :P The russians are overreacting. I mean... it's a statue. Did you see any of the riot?

[Demosthenez]

At 5/3/07 03:47 PM, RedGlare wrote: You seem to be missing the point the issue isn't with Russia and Estonia. Its with the flagrant disrespect the Estonian government is showing to there own people because there ethnicaly different.

YES IT IS ABOUT RUSSIA. The Estonian people have no lost love for their Soviet rule (I have actually met a number of Estonian expatriates so I am not just saying this, they really fucking hate the USSR). And a statue celebrating a Red Army soldier, the same Red Army that occupied their country and executed/enslaved their people both before AND after WWII, in their capitol city is a farce. They dont want reminders of their past as vassals of Stalin, Kruschev, or whatever other tyrant Russia produced to rule over them.

Your argument is equivalent to a monument in, lets say, South Africa celebrating the achievements of white Anglo colonialists. The Africans, for obvious reason, would probably have issues with this and if they wanted it gone, they are fully within their rights as the legitimate historical AND numerical owners of their country, of which Estonians are also both in their country.

And I am not going to debate you specifically but Estonians arent Slavic, you gave no proof of any benefit of Soviet rule and when I say none I mean absolutely fucking NONE, the economic conditions of the Eastern European countries are a DIRECT result of the fall of the Soviet Union and are a result of their failed policies, and I am not going to debate the Hungarian Revolution. I dont understand how you could not blame Moscow for that, their fucking puppets in Budapest may have gone along willingly but they were PUPPETS OF MOSCOW. There is not a single nice thing I can say about the Soviet conduct in their occupied Warsaw countries, not one.

And Im done debating with an apologetic little Russian goon. Great, you like communism and like the USSR. I dont care, if you are stupid enough to stand up for a government as opressive and brutal as the USSR was I am not going to debate with you. It would be like debating with Bin Laden, you aint gonna fucking listen.

I still cant believe there are people still like you around. Soviet apologists, I just dont get it.

You must be Russian.

[RedGlare]

At 5/3/07 07:41 PM, Demosthenez wrote:

At 5/3/07 03:47 PM, RedGlare wrote: You seem to be missing the point the issue isn't with Russia and Estonia. Its with the flagrant disrespect the Estonian government is showing to there own people because there ethnicaly different.

YES IT IS ABOUT RUSSIA. The Estonian people have no lost love for their Soviet rule

No its about Estonian Russians.

(I have actually met a number of Estonian expatriates

And i have actually meet some Ethnic Russians living in Estonia.

so I am not just saying this, they really fucking hate the USSR).

But the Ethnic Russians are not the Soviet Union, they are members of Estonia, many are Estonian Nationals and the Estonian government has a duty to represent and protect and care for and respect them just as much as any other Estonian.

And a statue celebrating a Red Army soldier,

The statue honours war dead. Not only are they moving the statue there also moving the graves that is disrespectful to those that died there.

the same Red Army that occupied their country and executed/enslaved their people both before AND after WWII, in their capitol city is a farce. They dont want reminders of their past as vassals of Stalin, Kruschev, or whatever other tyrant Russia produced to rule over them.

That statue is a reminder of sacrifice. By your logic Britain should remove all memorials for ther First world war as that was for the dominance of Empire. Despite the harsh treatment and appauling conditions they had to face.

Your argument is equivalent to a monument in, lets say, South Africa celebrating the achievements of white Anglo colonialists.

If that Anglo colonist invented something like say a cure for yellow fever or malaria and that was what the statue was celebrating them for then whats wrong in honouring good deeds or sacrifice?

The Africans, for obvious reason, would probably have issues with this and if they wanted it gone, they are fully within their rights as the legitimate historical AND numerical owners of their country, of which Estonians are also both in their country.

Oh i see so your saying Racially "pure" majority have the rights to discriminate and alienate the minorities in there countries. Brilliant, so the white man should be able to demolish mosques or build statues to crusaders who slaugthered the innocent because theres more of them in the west?

And I am not going to debate you specifically but Estonians arent Slavic,

No but the Nazis believed they were moron. The Nazis believed that all Eastern races where either Slavs or Mongols if you actually bothered to read my post you would of understood that was the Slavic refference.

you gave no proof of any benefit of Soviet rule and when I say none I mean absolutely fucking NONE,

Right so more hospitals and schools and access to Nuclear power aren't benefits.

the economic conditions of the Eastern European countries are a DIRECT result of the fall of the Soviet Union and are a result of their failed policies,

Funny i remember Russia staggering along until 1998 and Boris Yeltsins reforms and since all nations where using the same system under Soviet rule then its stands to reason that thereeconomies while crumbling would do the same unless they where dependant on raw matierials from other republics.

and I am not going to debate the Hungarian Revolution. I dont understand how you could not blame Moscow for that,

Who said i didn't? it was Kruschevs orders. I merely pointed out your fallacy on blaming the Russians only. You seem to have this misconception that the Red army was just made up of Russians Which i provided evidence wihch was on the contry.

their fucking puppets in Budapest may have gone along willingly but they were PUPPETS OF MOSCOW.

Wrong Rakosi and the Hungarian secret police where the ones who first clashed with and killed protestors. And Rakosi was
opposed to Kruschev vehemently.

There is not a single nice thing I can say about the Soviet conduct in their occupied Warsaw countries, not one.

You don't have to ive done some of it for you. Its not my fault you choose to ignore it in your crusade against Russians.

And Im done debating with an apologetic little Russian goon.

Excuse me? ive provided fact for further reading and done my best to provide an evenhanded approach to the subject. All you've done is show your hatred to the Russian people and used fancy words like "Technocrat" and completly ignore the real issue which is the internal problems within Estonia.
You also show a large lack of knowledge of the Nazis and there plans for the Eastern lands.

Great, you like communism and like the USSR. I dont care,

Obviously you do by the way you keep using opinnion to slander me and you have apsolutley no comprehension of the issues at large.

if you are stupid enough to stand up for a government as opressive and brutal as the USSR

Stand up for? pardon me but how does offering the other side of the coin equal standing up for? if youycan't see past your own one sided view then you really aren't cut out for debate.

was I am not going to debate with you.

Way to show your maturity, ignore people who don't agree with you in an attempt to spite them brilliant.

It would be like debating with Bin Laden, you aint gonna fucking listen.

Excuse me? i think you need to re read this whole thread. It seems to me that YOUR! the one not listening. And i would be more inlcined to listen if you actually knew what you where talking about instead of just pouring out anti Russian dribble.

I still cant believe there are people still like you around. Soviet apologists, I just dont get it.

Im not apologiesing for shit. Explain to me how ive apologiesed?

You must be Russian.

Not even close. This here is a perfect example of your racist and narrow mindset regarding Russians.

[Demosthenez]

The reason I didnt want to debate the Hungarian Revolution is I dont know it very well. Apparently, neither do you. Rakosi wasnt in charge of Hungary when all the riots and the revolution happened counter to your repeated claims, he was deposed in 1956, PRIOR to the revolution.

So stop fucking talking to me like you know what you are talking about. You dont, you are some fucking Soviet partisan. Look at your sig pic, look at your name, look at your profile pic, look at your profile quote. Tell me why I should expect any form of neutrality from an unabashed Soviet admirier.

Get with the times, the Soviets time for brutality is over just as the KKK's is.

At 5/4/07 08:06 AM, RedGlare wrote: The statue honours war dead. Not only are they moving the statue there also moving the graves that is disrespectful to those that died there.

As if the Soviets are anyone to give a flying fuck about war dead. Dont play this shit, the Soviets recruited criminals to serve as, literally, mine clearers. They sent them to the front to run acoss mine fields to clear them, completly unarmed. Lets also not forget their human wave tactics. Lets also not forget the commisars who executed anyone fleeing the battlefield. Lets also not forget Stalins directive, much like Hitlers, forbidding retreat. Lets also not forget the tremendous mass graves of countries political and military elite the Soviets left scattered across their occupied countries. And as has been highlighted in this thread by Estonians, the Soviets only care about graves in some instances. Read the thread if you are confused.

It is not disrespectful to move a mass grave of war dead from a city center, that is ridiculous. If anything, I can argue it is a health hazard that is being rectified.

That statue is a reminder of sacrifice. By your logic Britain should remove all memorials for ther First world war as that was for the dominance of Empire. Despite the harsh treatment and appauling conditions they had to face.

No, you really are an idiot. The British are of one nationality and having a statue representing someone like Trafalgar or Nelson or the WWI soldier makes perfect sense there. A statue celebrating Joan of Arc in their nation, however, would make absolutely no sense because she represents something that is counter to their nations interest and represents themes counter to their countries historical aims. The same would be true of having a statue of any of the King Louis' or King Fredricks or Napoleon in Britain because these are all figures that are not their heroes and all represent themes and aims counter to Britains. LIKE A STATUE COMMERATING A RED ARMY SOLDIER IN A COUNTRY THAT WAS FORCIBLY OCCUPIED BY THE RED ARMY.

Oh i see so your saying Racially "pure" majority have the rights to discriminate and alienate the minorities in there countries. Brilliant, so the white man should be able to demolish mosques or build statues to crusaders who slaugthered the innocent because theres more of them in the west?

You are a fucking moron. I said nothing about racial purity you stupid douchebag so stop spinning my arguments as Im some ignorant fool and you are the enlightened one setting me right. I am simply saying it is fully within the majority's power to remove a monument that celebrates a dark time in their history and celebrates their status as an occupied nation.

On the flip side, lets go ahead and use the argument you supplied in reverse. So the racial minority in a country has the right to keep, no demand, the presence of a statue that represents a whole lot of shit that happened to the majority nationality in a country? Just because there are SOME of them there and we cant be insensitive to their stupid ethnic nationalism? Yeah, you really think out what you say before you say it, dont you, you astute fellow?

No but the Nazis believed they were moron. The Nazis believed that all Eastern races where either Slavs or Mongols if you actually bothered to read my post you would of understood that was the Slavic refference.

Really? So I am supposed to read all that into your statement that "The Nazis wanted to exterminate all Slavs?" Huh. If you want me to understand something then fucking say it, dont claim thats what you meant after the fact and spin it like thats what you meant all along.

And lets see some proof the Nazis thought the Estonians were Slavs. And a statement isnt proof.

Right so more hospitals and schools and access to Nuclear power aren't benefits.

GIVE A LINK. I could very well say Nicaragua benefited from the American support of the Contras by an infusion of American money but that would be a whole load of bullshit. Evidence isnt writing an unfounded statement with no support backing it up.

You seem to have this misconception that the Red army was just made up of Russians Which i provided evidence wihch was on the contry.

No, I never said that. I thought the Soviet soldiers who entered Hungary and who were stationed there were Russians. I do not know if this is true or not.

Stop telling me what I believe, I know full well the Red Army was composed of more than ethnic Russians.

You also show a large lack of knowledge of the Nazis and there plans for the Eastern lands.

Howd you come up with that? Pull up something I have said that betrays that.

[RedGlare]

At 5/4/07 11:35 AM, Demosthenez wrote: Some more complaints about Hungary

Which means that since he ruled Hungary he is responsible for the oppresion and resentment that the Hungarians felt that eventually led to them taking up arms. The uprising didn't happen over night kiddo though the use of arms as opposed to what they where hoping for a peaceful demonstration.
Also are you forgetting that he was deposed FOR being to brutal the man proudly claimed he was Stalin's most devout diciple in Hungary. And it was still the Hungarian regime that was battling against the rebels a regime Rakosi virtually built and was responsible for the suppression of dissent upto the revolt.
I may have got my timings wrong but thats bothing compared your errors on the subject. You frequently claimed that it was the Russians and the Russians only responsible for the brutal treatment of the Hungarians a statement that is incorrect on many levels.

So stop fucking talking to me like you know what you are talking about.

I will when you stop pretending you do.

u dont,

Wow one little timeline discrepency and i know nothing hey? well then your intelligence must be in the negatives then with the amount of factualy incorrect statements you use to try and coverup your racist feelings towards Russians.

fucking Soviet partisan. Look at your sig

That was a gift i did not ask for it at all.

look at your name,

RedGlare? so how does "red eyed stare" have anyting to do with the C.C.C.P.?

look at your profile quote.

Ok heres where you really prove your severe lack of knowledge. That qoute is from the George Orwell Novel Nineteen Eighty Fourwhich is a Dystopic fiction.

Tell me why I should expect any form of neutrality from an unabashed Soviet admirier.

NO! you tell me why i should expect any neutrality or relevence from you? i have seen nothing in your posts on this thread but anti Russian hatred and opinnion. And you have repeated;y ignored any atempt by me to get back onto the actual discussion about Estonian domestic policy to bitch about how horrible the Russians are.

Get with the times, the Soviets time for brutality is over

Get with the issue this is not about the C.C.C.P. this is about a domestic issue between the Estonian government and its Russian inhabitants.

As if the Soviets are anyone to give a flying fuck about war dead.

Well apparently neither do the Estonians which is the REAL issue here.

Lets also not forget Stalins directive, much like Hitlers,

Pure irrelevence to the current topic. This is not about the Soviets its about the Estonians. If you wan't to go down the line of the "Soviet Union is evil" then start your own topic. This is about modern day Estonia and its poor treatment of some of its modern day Citizens because there Ethnicaly different.
I mentioned this to you several times but you completly ignored me so you could justify your hatred of Russians by bringing up post ww2 history.

the Soviets only care about graves in some instances. Read the thread if you are confused.

Confused? damn right im confused. You have just said the Soviets are gone but now you talk as if they where he- oh i get it your lumping Russians in as Soviets again. But i digress you also say its horrible or atleast imply that the "Soviets" only care about some graves. But you convieniatly overlook the obvious fact that Neither do Estonians if whats said in this thread is considered conclusive proof.
Read the thread if you are confused.

It is not disrespectful to move a mass grave of war dead from a city center, that is ridiculous.

Disturbing the dead? putting there remains at risk of damage or theft?

No, you really are an idiot. The British are of one nationality

Ho Ho Ho you are completly stupid. The British are not one nationality you nonce. Theres really no excuse for making such a rediculous claim since i provided you of some evidence contrary to that wrong statement in my examples.
Theres English,Scottish, Welsh, and Irish if you include Ulster (bit of a touchy subject)

and having a statue representing someone like Trafalgar or Nelson or the WWI soldier makes perfect sense there.

But wait you argued that the Red Army statue shouldn't be there for the lack off caring for sacrifice yet in the First World War the Aristocracy and Officer class on both sides treated there men as secondary.

because she represents something that is counter to their nations interest and represents themes counter to their countries historical aims.

Historically Estonia belonged to Russia and the Tartars.

King Fredricks or Napoleon in Britain because these are all figures that are not their heroes and all represent themes and aims counter to Britains.

But if there was a strong Anglo French community in Britain and they wanted a statue of any of them to help celebrate there history and culture then it would be allowed. You see the British atleast try to respect one another. Unlike the Estonians it seems.

LIKE A STATUE COMMERATING A RED ARMY SOLDIER IN A COUNTRY THAT WAS FORCIBLY OCCUPIED BY THE RED ARMY.

The statue commemorates war dead. Are you saying the dead should be treated like thay commited the crimes?

You are a fucking moron. I said nothing about racial purity you stupid douchebag so stop spinning my arguments as Im some ignorant fool and you are the enlightened one setting me right.

Actually yes you did you mentioned it several times. You also appear to not acknowledge the fact that the Ethnic Russians are Estonian. and i qoute "the ethnic Estonians can do whatever they wan't with there country" this shows that you regard them as supierior because they are ethnicly "Pure" Estonian.

I am simply saying it is fully within the majority's power to remove a monument that celebrates a dark time in their history and celebrates their status as an occupied nation.

Its funny you seem to complain when the Majority Soviet Union pushed other minorities around yet look how you change your tune when its the other way round. Could this be further proof of your intolerance to Russians?

On the flip side, lets go ahead and use the argument you supplied in reverse. So the racial minority in a country has the right to keep, no demand, the presence of a statue that represents a whole lot of shit that happened to the majority nationality in a country?

Yes. They are human beings, and they have certain rights as members of that country. Which been denied repeatedly to them in Estonia. They are denied the right to vote and hold offical Citizenship and certain jobs because there not ethnicly "pure"

Just because there are SOME of them there and we cant be insensitive to their stupid ethnic nationalism? Yeah, you really think out what you say before you say it, dont you, you astute fellow?

Ho Ho Ho i cant believe you actually wrote that. Then had ago at me for not thniking things through?
Take a look at yourself mate if that last bit wasn't the rantings of a supremicist who hates minorities i don't know what is.

Really? So I am supposed to read all that into your statement that "The Nazis wanted to exterminate all Slavs?" Huh. If you want me to understand something then fucking say it, dont claim thats what you meant after the fact and spin it like thats what you meant all along.

Maybe because i actually said "commonly reffered to under Nazi speak as Slavs" if you can't read thats your fault, don't pretend i din't make it clear enough for you.

And lets see some proof the Nazis thought the Estonians were Slavs. And a statement isnt proof.

Well then by your own admition you have no proof.

No, I never said that. I thought the Soviet soldiers who entered Hungary and who were stationed there were Russians.

So you did say it then?

I know the Red Army was composed of more than ethnic Russians.

Really? you don't mention this atall previously

Howd you come up with that? Pull up something I have said that betrays that.

Well for a start you said "the Nazis didn't exterminate native peoples just jews and gypsies"

[Demosthenez]

At 5/4/07 04:29 PM, RedGlare wrote: Which means that since he ruled Hungary he is responsible. . .

You are honestly trying to spin this shit like you knew this Rakosi fellow was responsible for all this? Please. You tried to name drop to look like you knew what you were talking about and in the end all in betrayed was your ignorance. And yes, I can look him up in wikipedia also, nice "disciple of Stalin" shit there. YOU ARE SO SMART.

I mentioned this to you several times but you completly ignored me so you could justify your hatred of Russians by bringing up post ww2 history.

You honestly think WW2 history isnt relevent here? THE STATUE COMMERATES A WWII RED ARMY SOLDIER. The Estonians were occupied by the Russians TWICE in a span of 5 years and occupied by the Germans once. The Russians then occupied Estonia for the next 40 years or so and executed many of their political and military leaders and deported the rest to Siberia. Tell me how this isnt relevent to the discussion, tell me exactly which part of any of this is hard for you to understand.

Theres English,Scottish, Welsh, and Irish if you include Ulster (bit of a touchy subject)

Excuse me, I meant England. I wasnt thinking clearly.

Historically Estonia belonged to Russia and the Tartars.

Historically Colombia and Venezula belonged to Spain. SO THE FUCK WHAT.

You also appear to not acknowledge the fact that the Ethnic Russians are Estonian. and i qoute "the ethnic Estonians can do whatever they wan't with there country" this shows that you regard them as supierior because they are ethnicly "Pure" Estonian.

So you are telling me they have to bend over backwards to placate a minority nationality in their country where they are a majority. They have to bend over backwards to keep a statue representing oppression and subservience to many (which is why it was moved) just to placated a minority.

Sorry bro, this isnt the Soviet Union anymore, minority rule doesnt work anymore so the Russians can go blow all their complaints out their ass. If they dont like how the majority of the nation approved the removal of a statue representing their status as occupied then go back to Russia. And it has nothing to do with enthinc "purity" you cock, the Estonian people are the historical owners of their country and numeriallly superior.

Its funny you seem to complain when the Majority Soviet Union pushed other minorities around yet look how you change your tune when its the other way round. Could this be further proof of your intolerance to Russians?

I have an intolerence for statues and monuments representing an absolutely horrid government in a nation that isnt Russian. And yes, I despise the Soviet Union and everything it stood for. I have no problem with Russians, I have a problem with their nationalism over a nation and system that sucked ass.

They are denied the right to vote and hold offical Citizenship and certain jobs because there not ethnicly "pure"

Take a look at yourself mate if that last bit wasn't the rantings of a supremicist who hates minorities i don't know what is.

Your an idiot. I bet I got more "minority" friends than you are even aware of on a facial basis. You dont know shit about me.

Maybe because i actually said "commonly reffered to under Nazi speak as Slavs" if you can't read thats your fault, don't pretend i din't make it clear enough for you.

You are really trying to rewrite what you said again to make it look like thats what you meant? Debating with you is like debating with an idiot.

Well then by your own admition you have no proof.

Wheres is the proof the Nazis thought Estonians were Slavs. You aint walking out of this one, where is the proof of something you claimed.

Really? you don't mention this atall previously

How fucking stupid do you think I am? I am aware of the Molotov Ribbentrop pact and the Russian invasion of Poland in 1939 (that I talked about earlier) but I am to stupid to be aware of units like this or that more than just Russians were in the Red Army? How fucking arrogant are you and how stupid do you think I am?

You want to question me on my WWII history? How much you want to bet I know more than you? How much you want to bet I have read more on WWII than you have? So keep telling me my mistake of believing the units that were stationed in Hungary at the time of the revolt were Russian is evidence of my belief that the entireity of the Red Army was composed of only Russians. Go the fuck ahead.

Now I am going to share some Estonian sentiments with you that I got from the link posted earlier. Here.

This is not about your grandfather, this is about the uniform he wore and what that represents to the untold millions who the jackbooted thugs in those uniforms killed, deported, robbed, raped and enslaved. The vast majority of Soviet soldiers were blameless in this, but a statue celebrating the "Liberation" of Tallinn has no place in the middle of a city that was raped and pillaged by the Soviet leaders. The Soviet Union invaded us, wearing those very same uniforms, in 1940, well before the nazis ever showed up, and killed thousands of innocent civilians and landowners. The amount of innocent dead from the two Soviet occupations outnumbers the Nazi killings more than three to one.

We are not destroying the monument, nor are we desecrating the graves of the fallen soldiers (the Soviets built a trolleybus stop atop their remains in the 1960s). They were exhumed after Orthodox and Lutheran religious services, and will be relocated, along with the memorial, to the Military Cemetery of Tallinn. It is simply being removed from central Tallinn to remove the offensive political connotation given to it by the Stalinist cretins who rewrote history and invented the claptrap of "liberation". We respect the fallen soldiers and recognize their defeat of Nazi Germany, but a country that lost a third of its population due to Stalin's "liberation" cannot ever accept Soviet flag-waving in the center of her capital city.
Sam

After re-independence, citizenship was AUTOMATICALLY granted to:

1. Ethnic Estonians
2. People whose ancestors lived in Estonia before the occupation, regardless of language skills or ethnic background.

Permanent residency was granted to everyone not under those categories. Citizenship is open to everyone who passes a basic fluency test of the Estonian language (language schooling is free of charge). Citizenship is not necessary for voting in local elections, public schooling is available in Russian nationwide, and Russian culture is supported from the public coffers. In the private sector, all retail is de facto bilingual, and where it's monolingual, it's nearly always monolingual in favor of Russian. A Russian has no trouble whatsoever in Tallinn, but an Estonian in Narva (95% Russian) is hard pressed to get by with Estonian.

Most of the Russian minority has been granted citizenship, with only about 9 percent of Estonian nationals being permanent residents.

As to your accusations of horrible racism, perhaps you'd care to explain why Estonia's Azerbajani minority yesterday released a statement praising the treatment of minorities in Estonia. You see, the Azerbajani are VISIBLE minorities, plus they're Muslims. Estonians and Russians look alike and are both of a Christian background.
Sam