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Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

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Elfer
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-30 10:13:23 Reply

The important part of the second amendment is "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The part about "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State" is just justification for the clause.

Basically, it reads "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, what with a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state and all."

A militia doesn't actually have to exist for the right to be granted.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-30 17:08:30 Reply

At 4/29/07 03:31 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: If banning assault weapons doesn't work, then why do cops unanimously (pretty much...) support it?

"Among the many law enforcement organization that supported the ban are the Law Enforcement Steering Committee, the Fraternal Order of Police, the National Sheriffs' Association, the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Major City Chiefs Association, the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, the National Association of Police Organizations, the Hispanic American Police Command Officers Association, the National Black Police Association, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, the Police Executive Research Forum, and the Police Foundation." (http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/faqs/?pag e=awb)

And there's evidence that the ban works:

"a study by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence (formerly the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence) found that, in Maryland, whose ban on assault pistols took effect in June 1994, the number of assault pistols recovered by Baltimore police in the first six months of 1995 fell by 45 percent from the first six months of 1994."

You actually contradict yourself here. The assault weapons ban was geared towards rifles rather than pistols. What was banned in regards to pistols under the 1994 law was the manufacture of high capacity magazines. What do they classify as an assault pistol? I have never heard that term applied to a pistol by anyone who knows anything about firearms...sounds like something made-up by the anti-gun crowd.

But the argument that the assault weapon ban is irrational is that less than 1% of crimes is committed by people armed with rifles. Now to educate you a little bit, a shot gun is NOT a rifle. A rifle is a firearm that is only capable of firing a bullet, while a shot gun fires either a) shot (multiple lead or metal projectiles) or b) a slug (one massive lead projectile). Another difference is the inside of a shotgun barrel is smooth while a rifle barrel is rifled (hence the name) which makes the bullet spin giving it greater accuracy.

Now back to my point; rifles are used in less than 1% of firearms crime. The vast majority are handguns and shotguns. Quite simply assault rifles are not practial in the commission of crimes. Check out this article that I often cite:

SOURCE


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-02 11:56:41 Reply

At 4/29/07 01:06 PM, Korriken wrote:
so you see here, that a militia is an army of ordinary citizens. who are ordinary citizens? everyone!

And their necessity to state security is...?

Sorry, is this somehow going over your head? At what point is Joe Public owning a gun helping state security? At what point is he part of a militia, as opposed to A Guy With A Gun? Are you even reading your own dictionary flame? Let's take a second look:

1. An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
2. A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.
3. The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.

So...having a gun in your house in case of prowlers is helping national security...how? And, as I said, the second fits the Army Reserve perfectly.

Which of the following aren't you reading properly:
1.) My posts.
2.) The Constitution/Bill of Rights.
3.) Dictionary.com
4.) What you're typing.

God, guns and ignorance always go hand-in-hand, don't they?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-02 21:35:06 Reply

At 5/2/07 01:04 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
That's a really good question. I wonder if anyone can answer that.

Can anyone answer that?

I can! it won't be any different. as long as people desire something there will be a market for it, legal or otherwise.

considering that cocaine is VERY rarely grown in america at best, and worst case is it's never grown in america.

However, there are millions of coke and crack addicts in america today.

Also don't forget that Opiates is a major problem and it's illegal as well.

if we can't stop drug smuggling, how will we stop gun smuggling?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-02 22:23:19 Reply

At 5/2/07 01:04 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: That's a really good question. I wonder if anyone can answer that.

Can anyone answer that?

No, not really.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-02 22:41:46 Reply

Hmm...

Gee...last figures I saw from the Feds suggested 30,000 gun deaths...
Most of them could have been prevented with sensible control and strong enforcement!

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-02 22:47:22 Reply

At 5/2/07 10:41 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Hmm...

Gee...last figures I saw from the Feds suggested 30,000 gun deaths...
Most of them could have been prevented with sensible control and strong enforcement!

Prevented? Probably not. Transmuted into knife or other weapon deaths? Sure. If someone wants to kill another person, they'll do it regardless of access to guns or other weapons. Limited legal guns only instills confidence in the would-be murderer or burglar.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-02 22:50:44 Reply

Many gun crimes are committed with legal guns...stolen legal guns or legal guns shadily resold, for example.

A gun kept in the home is 27X more likely to be used in a suicide or to kill a friend or family member than to kill/injure a criminal...

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-03 00:07:33 Reply

At 5/2/07 10:50 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Many gun crimes are committed with legal guns...stolen legal guns or legal guns shadily resold, for example.

many, but many more are committed with illegal acquired arms. as far as the stolen and resold guns: well they aren't quite legal anymore. have fun when people start stealing from gun cartels.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-03 07:06:55 Reply

At 5/2/07 11:09 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 5/2/07 10:50 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:
A gun kept in the home is 27X more likely to be used in a suicide or to kill a friend or family member than to kill/injure a criminal...
More likely than what exactly?

He is saying it is more likely for the gun to be used to commit suicide or kill a friend/family member

than it is

to be used to kill/injure a criminal.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-03 09:37:02 Reply

At 5/2/07 10:41 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Hmm...

Gee...last figures I saw from the Feds suggested 30,000 gun deaths...
Most of them could have been prevented with sensible control and strong enforcement!

ORLY? so you're saying that: Although drug laws do little to nothing to prevent abuse from controlled substances, which addict and kill millions of americans, that "gun laws" will have a magical effect on criminals and make them put down their guns and that taking guns away from law abiding citizens will help curbs violent deaths?

That is the dumbest shit i've heard in years. if you ban guns, then a black market opens up and people start making guns in other countries and smuggle them in for criminals to buy JUST LIKE DRUGS. In the end you have unarmed civilians, armed criminals, and a government trying to figure out what went wrong.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-03 14:49:41 Reply

I agree, if the government were to ban all firearms, the illicit trade of illegal firearms would still supply criminals. As for accidental firearms deaths, nearly all could have been prevented because they caused by misuse and poor handling.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-03 15:35:03 Reply

If someone is committed to hurting themself or another person, they will go through with their plan even if they don't have a firearm. Yes, people have hurt themselves and others with a firearm, but even if they hadn't had the weapon doesn't mean they wouldn't have done anything anyways.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-03 16:28:25 Reply

At 5/2/07 10:30 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 5/2/07 09:35 PM, Korriken wrote:
if we can't stop drug smuggling, how will we stop gun smuggling?
With sensible gun laws, duh.

Gosh, did anyone else know that 12,000 people die EVERY year in America, due to GUNS ALONE?!

I know, it's outrageous. But look at America where guns are a problem.

;
With that many Americans killing each other every year at home.
You would think the soldiers killed in Iraq wouldn't even been noticed !
Look at these numbers.

On March 20 2003 america & it's allies invaded Iraq.

3355 have died as of May 1st 2007
Approximately 44,000 Americans have died at home in the U.S. of gun related violence.
Every time an American is killed in the Iraq conflict, 13 Americans are killed by gun violence at home.
Your safer over in Iraq than you are in your own country.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-03 17:05:53 Reply

At 5/3/07 04:47 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: See? The numbers prove it!

I agree.

If it wasn't for guns, then the 300 Spartans at the battle of Thermopolye would have never died.

We must end this violence.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-03 20:26:46 Reply

At 5/3/07 05:05 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:
At 5/3/07 04:47 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: See? The numbers prove it!
I agree.

If it wasn't for guns, then the 300 Spartans at the battle of Thermopolye would have never died.

We must end this violence.

But if they didn't die, the rest of Greece wouldn't be inspired to rise up and overcome the Persians!


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-03 23:23:22 Reply

At 5/3/07 04:28 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
Your safer over in Iraq than you are in your own country.

well we also got what, maybe 27,000 troops in iraq ALL OF WHICH are armed to the teeth with military grade weaponry, VS 300 million people....
7500

of 27,000 you get 3,355 thats right around 12%. not bad for a war zone.

then of 300,000,000 you get 40,000. thats right around 11%

I would have to say iraq is more dangerous. better luck next time.

Also you have to factor in weapons. if the soldiers were unarmed it would be a slaughter of our soldiers.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 00:10:07 Reply

I hate the arguement that we should legalize guns completely becasue people will get them anyways illegal. Sure they will get them illegally but shoudl we make it easy for them? I do nto think we shoudl ban guns, but we shoudl put restrictions on them. Does anyone really need an automatic assault weapon? License gun owners to make sure people ateast know how to properly use and store them and other safety issues.

In Canada we have two classes of weapons license, long guns (rifles and shot guns) and restricted weapons (hand guns). You need to take a course specialized for your class and apply for a license from the RCMP (our version of the FBI).


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 00:13:57 Reply

At 5/3/07 08:26 PM, Dr-Worm wrote: But if they didn't die, the rest of Greece wouldn't be inspired to rise up and overcome the Persians!

and we would never have a movie about really angry, speedo-clad men.

Sparta; really pissed, all the fucking time.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 09:06:42 Reply

At 5/4/07 12:10 AM, JoS wrote: I hate the arguement that we should legalize guns completely becasue people will get them anyways illegal.

why? does it kill your arguement completely?

Sure they will get them illegally but shoudl we make it easy for them?

well, let's see. go out on the streets, find a guy selling drugs and see if you can get a hit of heroin. I'll tell you now, that's not hard at all. I'm not a heroin addict, but if you know where to look you can obtain anything you want, short of a rocket launcher.

I do nto think we shoudl ban guns, but we shoudl put restrictions on them.

That's step 1....

Does anyone really need an automatic assault weapon?

It's been said time and time again, crimes aren't committed with automatic assault weapons. they are WAY too expensive for the average criminal to obtain, seeing as they are WELL over $10,000-$30,000 each, and are military grade equipment that is not available to the general public. stop using this lame arguement.

License gun owners to make sure people ateast know how to properly use and store them and other safety issues.

just because they KNOW how don't mean they WILL, the same as people today who don't have a license that do or do not store and handle their guns properly.


In Canada we have two classes of weapons license, long guns (rifles and shot guns) and restricted weapons (hand guns). You need to take a course specialized for your class and apply for a license from the RCMP (our version of the FBI).

good for you, in time the people will call for banning handguns and restricting long guns, then banning long guns.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 10:12:52 Reply

I have not been in here for a while so I may have missed something. I do remember some people argueing though that if we make guns illegal or difficult to get, people who really want them for illegal purposes (such as Cho) will get them anyways, and banning them only takes them away from law abiding people. While this arguement has some merit it is still ridiculas. We should not make it as easy as buying milk. many guns that are illegal were purchused legally in other states with looser gun laws.

I firmly believe that people should be able to buy a gun if they want one, but they should have a process to go through. A gun license is a good way to go. If you are convicted of a crime or are deemed a threat to yourself and others your license is simply revoked and you can no longer legally buy a gun. Its alot more work, expensive and dangerous to buy a gun illegally than legally.

Have the license program overseen by some federal authority, perhaps the FBI or the ATF. You do a background check to make sure you are not a convicted criminal, a check that you have not been put into a mental institution or deemed a danger to yourself or others and take some sort of safety course and you get your license.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 10:56:21 Reply

Well for those of you who do not know, there is a background check system already in place in America. I recently purchased a firearm and was required to submit to the check. I am a firm believer in allowing citizens to own firearms, but unfortunately our background check isn't foolproof. With all the confidentiality laws in our country, it is hard to allow the important information to be shared with other people who need it. For example, a person with a mental illness that isn't outwardly obvious would be able to purchase a firearm because the medical personnel cannot share his medical information with the government without permission, thus allowing an unfit person to obtain a firearm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is the case with the recent Virginia Tech shooting.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 18:41:06 Reply

At 5/3/07 11:23 PM, Korriken wrote: then of 300,000,000 you get 40,000. thats right around 11%

That's some sexy math right there.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 18:49:59 Reply

At 5/4/07 06:41 PM, Elfer wrote:
At 5/3/07 11:23 PM, Korriken wrote: then of 300,000,000 you get 40,000. thats right around 11%
That's some sexy math right there.

*gets out calculator*

329,600,00 off. Yep, sexy maths indeed.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 19:44:08 Reply

I would like to echo JoS's statement about having more federal authority involved. If the federal government were to strengthen the Brady Bill, reeintroduce the AWB of 1994 (with stricter provisions - i.e. no grandfathering except for obvious, unfirable antiques unless in a museum) and generally enforce the existing laws to a greater degree. Also, making gun sellers and manufacturers liable for crimes will help send the message that restricting gun sales is the gov'ts goal.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 19:52:55 Reply

At 5/4/07 07:44 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: I would like to echo JoS's statement about having more federal authority involved. If the federal government were to strengthen the Brady Bill,

another step in the direction of a ban.

reeintroduce the AWB of 1994 (with stricter provisions - i.e. no grandfathering except for obvious, unfirable antiques unless in a museum)

and how many times do assault weapons get used in crimes? hmm?

and generally enforce the existing laws to a greater degree. Also, making gun sellers and manufacturers liable for crimes

this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. That is like saying that Mcdonalds should have to pay for liposuction because it turns its customers into lardasses, or that tobacco companies should have to pay to have its customers treated for cancer. There is no credible way to tell if a gun will ever be used in a crime or not. To say there is a way is a downright lie.

will help send the message that restricting gun sales is the gov'ts goal.

don't you mean YOUR goal? the government's job is to uphold the constitution, not distort it to fit the views of scaremongers and gunsnatchers.

Power to the people! (ooh catchphrase!)


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 19:57:33 Reply

The Constitution empowers the Congress to restrict gun ownership. The 2nd amendment is about the MILITIA, the STATE organized militia- there is no mention of private ownership.

Anyway:

Strengthening the AWB could prevent crime. Assault weapons are involved in crimes. Why else would police organizations (Law Enforcement Steering Committee, the Fraternal Order of Police, the National Sheriffs' Association, the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Major City Chiefs Association, the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, the National Association of Police Organizations, the Hispanic American Police Command Officers Association, the National Black Police Association, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, the Police Executive Research Forum, and the Police Foundation) support such a ban?

Here are some examples of crimes where assault weapons were used:
The Stockton Schoolyard massacre, the CIA headquarters shootings, Waco, the North Hollywood shootout (with the bank robbers, that one)...the list goes on and on.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 20:43:32 Reply

At 5/4/07 07:57 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: The Constitution empowers the Congress to restrict gun ownership. The 2nd amendment is about the MILITIA, the STATE organized militia- there is no mention of private ownership.

Anyway:

Strengthening the AWB could prevent crime. Assault weapons are involved in crimes. Why else would police organizations (Law Enforcement Steering Committee, the Fraternal Order of Police, the National Sheriffs' Association, the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Major City Chiefs Association, the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, the National Association of Police Organizations, the Hispanic American Police Command Officers Association, the National Black Police Association, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, the Police Executive Research Forum, and the Police Foundation) support such a ban?

Here are some examples of crimes where assault weapons were used:
The Stockton Schoolyard massacre,

ahh yes, a semi auto AK-47, i remember reading on this one. I hate to tell you this, but a normal hunting rifle has a better killing potential than an AK-47. AK-47 uses a 7.62mm bullet. thats not a very big bullet, nor is it overly effective at killing, My .410 has hollow point slugs that do a better job at killing. Of course it's a single shot...

He would have done a MUCH MUCH better job at killing, had he used a hunting rifle, and took his time to aim at the victims' vitals.

the CIA headquarters shootings,
another AK....

Waco,
that was one messed up incident... I'm still not sure what to make of it. Also, I can't find any info on the weapons that were used...

the North Hollywood shootout (with the bank robbers, that one)...
hey guess what, more semi auto AKs!

the list goes on and on.
I bet most if not all use the hardly effective AK-47 single auto too.

the AK is overrated, as a gun with 9mm hollow point bullets hits harder, kills better, and is much cheape. If they were packing around M4A1s... then i would be scared.

the only REAL selling point to an AK-47 is easy maintenance.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 20:56:10 Reply

At 5/4/07 07:57 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:

well crap hit the post button before finishing.

The Constitution empowers the Congress to restrict gun ownership. The 2nd amendment is about the MILITIA, the STATE organized militia- there is no mention of private ownership.

the PEOPLE are the MILITIA! I'm all for banning Heavy machine guns and mortars, but to say that I can't have a gun, despite being a citizen of my state, which makes me a member of the state militia, to be called upon in a time of war to defend my country if we get invaded, is stupid.


Anyway:

Strengthening the AWB could prevent crime.

no it won't. They'll just resort to using other guns. and if you ban guns they will resort to non gun weapons or homemade guns. guess what? take a heavy steel pipe, drill a hole in the side of the pipe near one end, cap it off, carefully weld another piece of pipe for a handle, wrap a bit of insulation where you want to put your other hand to steady it, then wrap the insulation with some cloth or leather to hold it in place, stick a fuse in the hole on the side of the pipe, pack some gunpowder in, stuff in some BBs or a sabot that will fit in the pipe, stick a bit of wadded paper to hold the BBs in place, find a victim, light the fuse, aim it at them, and KABOOM. instant victim. AWB did a GREAT job in preventing that one!

Assault weapons are involved in crimes.
as are all other weapons, tools, and even bare hands. you can kill someone with a strip of cloth if you strangle them with it. AWB did a GREAT job of preventing that one!

Why else would police organizations support such a ban?
well, a full auto assault rifle I can understand, but a semi auto assault rifle has about the same power as a regular semi auto hunting rifle. some 'assault' rifles have less power than a hunting rifle.

the main killing point of a semi auto 'assault rifle' is the large magazine capacity. other than that, its a regular gun. It's also VERY expensive.


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