Be a Supporter!

Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

  • 41,043 Views
  • 1,757 Replies
New Topic Respond to this Topic
Elfer
Elfer
  • Member since: Jan. 21, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 38
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 26th, 2007 @ 10:16 PM Reply

At 4/26/07 01:19 PM, Ravariel wrote: Only because the situation is so rare that we have no data for it. My ONLY point was there is NO garauntee that armed classmates would have made the situation ANY safer or less deadly. Cho was already going to die, so the "threat" or armed classmates obviously wasn't going to be a deterrant.

It wouldn't be a deterrent, but if there were say, three people in the area with handguns who knew how to use them, I seriously doubt he would have killed 32 people.

At 4/26/07 03:42 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: But it requires skill to make a bomb. A gun can be obtained by any crazy individual with little or no restriction.

You would be very surprised by how easy it is to make an explosive device with things you can get from a hardware store. It would be much cheaper and probably easier than getting a handgun.

I guess it would be harder if you had to make a remote detonation system, but that's not really necessary.

SolInvictus
SolInvictus
  • Member since: Oct. 15, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 26th, 2007 @ 11:46 PM Reply

At 4/26/07 12:36 AM, Ravariel wrote: Indeed... as is the assumption that allowing students to carry guns on campus would have stopped or even lessened Cho's spree.

i never made any assertions that more guns would have solved the problem.


VESTRUM BARDUSIS MIHI EXTASUM
Heathenry; it's not for you
"calling atheism a belief is like calling a conviction belief"

BBS Signature
Ravariel
Ravariel
  • Member since: Apr. 19, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 12
Musician
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 27th, 2007 @ 01:25 AM Reply

At 4/26/07 08:32 PM, WolvenBear wrote: Banning guns won't get rid of guns?

Oh, GOd. I need to sit down...

i no rite?

We have a lot of data for it. I have provided, in this forum, at least 4 examples. If you'd like more, that's fine.

And your examples are fine... but there would have been no deterrant there for Cho. He had already decided that he was going to die either self-inflicted or otherwise. If someone was armed, maybe maybe it would have stopped him before he hit 32. Or maybe not.

Either way, they got there and the doors had been barricaded. Normally, the police don't get there til it's over, and too late to help. They generally figure out what happened after the fact.

If after the first shooting they had closed the campus, there wouldn't have been the opportunity for Cho to continue his spree, and his toll would have been much lower (to a far higher degree of certainty than armed classmates). The police failed.

Are we only counting schools or are we including police here?

All of them... Every instance of a bomb used in a crime, both thwarted and otherwise.


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

positively-negative
positively-negative
  • Member since: Mar. 23, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 11
Reader
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 27th, 2007 @ 06:45 AM Reply

Gun control works depending on the culture. I mean in New Zealand we have the highest rate of gun ownership in the OECD but we have little gun crime compared with the USA. It is the thing that the wrong type of guns are so easily accessable in many countries through legal and illegal purposes.

I have known how to use a rifle since I was a child and I would consider myself a careful person around firearms. I have never seen a gun in the wrong hands, but it does happen everywhere, it is just the types and of guns out there in the USA due to the wild west gun slinging cowboy mantra that exists there and is too late to change.

And remember many cases of gun crime are performed with the victim's own gun. Keeping a weapon beside you for personal defense is a bad idea, especially if the criminal gets to it before you.

And cellardoor6, you work for a weapons company. The type of people that build stuff purely for profiting off humans killing other humans. The fact that there is a market for human destruction is a sad thing.

Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 27th, 2007 @ 09:01 AM Reply

At 4/27/07 06:45 AM, positively-negative wrote:
And remember many cases of gun crime are performed with the victim's own gun. Keeping a weapon beside you for personal defense is a bad idea, especially if the criminal gets to it before you.

show me 1 case of where the criminal busts in, snatches the victims gun, then wastes him with it.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

TurtleJuice
TurtleJuice
  • Member since: Feb. 4, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 18
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 27th, 2007 @ 09:26 AM Reply

Banning guns wouldn't do anything , most of the people who can harm the public with guns are criminals who most likely purchased the gun illigally .


Somebody make me a cunting signature.

Ravariel
Ravariel
  • Member since: Apr. 19, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 12
Musician
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 27th, 2007 @ 12:25 PM Reply

At 4/27/07 09:01 AM, Korriken wrote:
At 4/27/07 06:45 AM, positively-negative wrote:
And remember many cases of gun crime are performed with the victim's own gun. Keeping a weapon beside you for personal defense is a bad idea, especially if the criminal gets to it before you.
show me 1 case of where the criminal busts in, snatches the victims gun, then wastes him with it.

I can't find a story about it on the intarweb... probably because it happened back in the early 90s in a little hick town in Northern Michigan. But a fellow by the name of Raymond Thacker escaped (read walked out of) Camp Pellston, a minimum security prison near where I lived. He then found his way into town, broke into a classmates house, ambushed her father and uncle, tied them up on the floor and shot them both in the back of the head with his own hunting rifle. His 16 year old daughter found them after school.


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

HighlyIllogical
HighlyIllogical
  • Member since: Dec. 9, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 27th, 2007 @ 04:25 PM Reply

"For every time a gun is used in a home in a legally-justifiable shooting there are 22
criminal, unintentional, and suicide-related shootings."-Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, et al. "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home." The Journal of Trauma. 1998;45:263-267.

That tells me that guns are a problem...

And the fact that our "buddy" Cho could get a gun through a legal loophole - because Virginia did an "instant check" rather than a REAL manual check through electronic and paper records – just reenforces the gun control argument.

SolInvictus
SolInvictus
  • Member since: Oct. 15, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 27th, 2007 @ 05:50 PM Reply

At 4/26/07 03:42 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: But it requires skill to make a bomb. A gun can be obtained by any crazy individual with little or no restriction.

it actually requires very little skill.


VESTRUM BARDUSIS MIHI EXTASUM
Heathenry; it's not for you
"calling atheism a belief is like calling a conviction belief"

BBS Signature
cellardoor6
cellardoor6
  • Member since: Apr. 4, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 20
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 27th, 2007 @ 08:26 PM Reply

At 4/27/07 06:45 AM, positively-negative wrote: Gun control works depending on the culture. I mean in New Zealand we have the highest rate of gun ownership in the OECD but we have little gun crime compared with the USA.

First of all, you have less gun crime because your country has only a fraction of our population. You have a lower gun crime RATE because of a whole slew of variables.

You live on an Island where things like guns aren't easily smuggled into your country. You have a small percentage of minorities, and you have probably little to no illegal immigrants. We have 10 times as many illegal immigrants as you have citizens... and the majority of crime in our country is committed by minorities and illegals.

I wonder how high your gun crime rate would be if your bordered Mexico, had the same racial and socio-economic makeup as the US, etc... It would probably be about the same. Maybe higher because your ignorant politicians would probably end up making the same mistake as the UK and outright ban certain guns, which actually statistically increases gun crime.

I have known how to use a rifle since I was a child and I would consider myself a careful person around firearms.

And so would 99.99% of Americans who legally own guns.

I have never seen a gun in the wrong hands, but it does happen everywhere, it is just the types and of guns out there in the USA due to the wild west gun slinging cowboy mantra that exists there and is too late to change.

You don't know what you're talking about. Because those "gun slinging cowboys" you talk about barely commit any of the gun crime in the US.

As a proved before, the majority of firearm crime is committed by people who do not LEGALLY own their firearms, therefore those southern Americans that people like you like to falsely stereotype are the least likely segment of society to commit crime with firearms, because well, they LEGALLY own their guns.

You're just another one of those ignorant non-Americans who watch a few movies and base your entire opinion on our country on emotional and politically-driven nonsense that has no basis in reality or facts. You'd rather take the convenient, and easy rout and use as little brain power as possible, and just blame the "cowboys".

And remember many cases of gun crime are performed with the victim's own gun. Keeping a weapon beside you for personal defense is a bad idea, especially if the criminal gets to it before you.

That's not true, in fact there are up to 2.5 million defensive uses of firearms by citizens in the US every year. That's potentially millions of crimes prevented by legal gun use.

So actually, law-abiding, responsible gun owners in the US who have guns for personal defense is STATISTICALLY a good idea, it prevents more crime than it creates.

And cellardoor6, you work for a weapons company. The type of people that build stuff purely for profiting off humans killing other humans. The fact that there is a market for human destruction is a sad thing.

No, what is a sad thing is that ignorant people like you know so little about guns, yet think you're informed enough to start throwing around accusations. What's sad is that you base your entire views on what you see on TV and haven't experienced for yourself.

Guns are necessary to society, and the weapons that my company works on are specifically used for law enforcement and military. If they DIDN'T get those weapons then they wouldn't be able to defend their countries or uphold the law in their countries. There's nothing sad about that. It's just sad that you are so blinded by the negative coverage of guns in the movies and in the media that you can't see reality.

Did you know that more people are killed in auto accidents in the US than by firearms? Does that mean people working at Toyota and making cars that kill more people than guns is a sad thing?

Wake up, you know nothing about what you're talking about. But don't feel bad, 99% of people like you don't either, your distorted mindset is just a negative byproduct of your media. You just don't know any better.


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

BBS Signature
D2Kvirus
D2Kvirus
  • Member since: Jan. 31, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 38
Filmmaker
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 11:54 AM Reply

At 4/25/07 02:48 PM, WolvenBear wrote:
At 4/25/07 10:35 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: If the rate of gun-related deaths goes up 10% in the UK, it means the deaths of seven or eight people.
If the rate of gun-related deaths goes up 10% in the US, it means the deaths of 3000 people.
Yea, let's ignore the rest of the murders in London and only focus on the guns...

You are aware that was the point I was making, right? Or, in fact, the whole goddamn thread?

Or, to put it another way, let's just ignore all the other murders in the US and focus on the guns. Wait, we all have - that's the point of the thread.

Catch up.

Guns were strictly monitored on VA Tech. Didn't help them any.

Were they monitored 5ft outside the gates?

The UK outdoes the US in all violent crime except murders. Rape robbery, and assault are all higher in the UK than here.

So, your point is the US is still killing people more than we are? Good for them.

Please, where is this going? You make some snotty comment about focusing on guns to try and score a point, then come up with the fact America murders more peopkle. Errm...sorry, my head is starting to get numb here.

And this yet again ignores the real problem. Crime. Referring to it as gun crime is exceptionally foolish.

Stabbing somebody isn't a gun-related crime. It's not foolish.

What IS foolish, to try and get back to some semblance of not banging my head against a wall, is how people have allowed the NRA to bastardise the Second Amendment for their own ends.

The Second Amendment says that all Americans have the right to bear arms if they are to form a militia. Not that Joe Public can buy a gun at K-Mart.

At the time the Second Amendment was drafted, yes, America needed a militia to help fight the British. Now, in the 21st Century, they have an Army, Navy and Air Force - as well as the Army reserve. Hell, the Michigan Militia are constitutional but anyone that has a gun in their house is being un-Constitutional.

Maybe if people read the Constitution and Bill of Rights rather than listen to lawyers and pressure groups they'd not have a warped view of what their rights are. For example, do you thing Cho Seung-hui could've convinced the gunstore owner/clerk he was forming a militia?


Propaganda is to a Democracy what violence is to a Dictatorship
Never underestimate the significance of "significant."
NG Politics Discussion 101

BBS Signature
LazyDrunk
LazyDrunk
  • Member since: Nov. 3, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 24
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 01:40 PM Reply

The Second Amendment says that all Americans have the right to bear arms if they are to form a militia. Not that Joe Public can buy a gun at K-Mart.

No, it says, word for word, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Shall not be infringed? Sounds pretty clear to me. You probably read "well-regulated" as "government-regulated", which would be typical and understandable.

At the time the Second Amendment was drafted, yes, America needed a militia to help fight the British.

It was not to fight the British. It was seen necessary to the security of a free state. Why do you get confused here? Did you think free speech only applies to congress members on the house floor too?

For example, do you thing Cho Seung-hui could've convinced the gunstore owner/clerk he was forming a militia?

Yea. So know what kind of point did you plan on making?


We gladly feast upon those who would subdue us.

BBS Signature
HighlyIllogical
HighlyIllogical
  • Member since: Dec. 9, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 03:11 PM Reply

"During the 1987-1992 period, offenders fired their weapons in
17 percent of all non-fatal handgun crimes, missing the victim
four out of five times. In 3 percent of the non-fatal crimes
committed with handguns, about 21,000 annually, the victim was
wounded. In addition, an average 11,100 were killed each
year.

During the same period an estimated annual average of 62,000
violent crime victims (approximately 1 percent of all violent
crime victims) used a firearm in an effort to defend
themselves. In addition, an annual average of about 20,000
victims of theft, household burglary or motor vehicle theft
attempted to defend their property with guns."

--National Crime Victimization Survey USDOJ press release

Now, to me, that shows how few times guns are actually used in self defense.

Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 03:49 PM Reply

At 4/27/07 12:25 PM, Ravariel wrote:
I can't find a story about it on the intarweb... probably because it happened back in the early 90s in a little hick town in Northern Michigan. But a fellow by the name of Raymond Thacker escaped (read walked out of) Camp Pellston, a minimum security prison near where I lived. He then found his way into town, broke into a classmates house, ambushed her father and uncle, tied them up on the floor and shot them both in the back of the head with his own hunting rifle. His 16 year old daughter found them after school.

of 300,000,000 people in america and this happens... once. I wouldn't say thats enough to say it happens often, as a matter of fact that would be considered extremely rare and not a very good reason to ban or control anything.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Brick-top
Brick-top
  • Member since: Oct. 29, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 03:51 PM Reply

I think this thread has dragged on long enough.

So here is a funny.

Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 03:55 PM Reply

At 4/28/07 03:11 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:
During the same period an estimated annual average of 62,000
violent crime victims (approximately 1 percent of all violent
crime victims) used a firearm in an effort to defend
themselves. In addition, an annual average of about 20,000
victims of theft, household burglary or motor vehicle theft
attempted to defend their property with guns."

--National Crime Victimization Survey USDOJ press release

Now, to me, that shows how few times guns are actually used in self defense.

That is 62,000 people who were smart enough to.. wait for it.. defend themselves! That is the VERY reason why we shouldn't take guns out of law abiding citizens hands. for without them that would have been up to 62,000 more added to the statistic. Look in the UK, if a criminal busts into someone's house with a gun, what can the person do? nothin! there's not a damn thing the victim can do, except, maybe TRY to ambush the criminal, but that gets you killed often, especially if you have no idea how to disarm someone's gun. you can scream "we need more gun control" all you want, but there is no way in hell you will convince people, other than liberal zombie types like Rosie O'Donnel that your idea is a good one.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Brick-top
Brick-top
  • Member since: Oct. 29, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 04:07 PM Reply

At 4/28/07 03:55 PM, Korriken wrote:

Look in the UK, if a criminal busts into someone's house with a gun, what can the person do? nothin! there's not a damn thing the victim can do, except, maybe TRY to ambush the criminal, but that gets you killed often, especially if you have no idea how to disarm someone's gun.

Wait a minute that type of problem has only become serous recently and the government is doing its best to stop it (AKA sitting around and play Tetris)

I can honestly say that someone isn't going to burst into my house and shoot me in the head. Knives and swords are more of a problem. Besides the scenario you are talking about you would have to be sitting around pointing a gun at the door. Can you honestly say between the 3 to 10 seconds you have to react to grab a weapon, take it off safety point and fire? Not unless you keep it under a cushion where that would make you a weirdo.

Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 04:11 PM Reply

At 4/26/07 03:42 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:
But it requires skill to make a bomb. A gun can be obtained by any crazy individual with little or no restriction.

trust me, making a simple bomb isn't THAT hard, I've done it myself. However, to avoid getting myself banned, I'm not gonna put any details on the forum, if you want to know how to do it, use a search engine, it's not hard at all It's common sense and very basic knowledge.

and ANY lunatic can get their hands on a bit of steel pipe, some pyrodex, and a fuse

"what do you need steel pipe for?" fixing a water leak
"what do you need pyrodex for?" I hunt with a muzzle loader
you can get fuse off of the internet.

Cho could have had WAY more than 32 kills had he use explosives instead. He could have thrown some pipe bombs out of a window into a crowd and racked up many more kills and injuries.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

SolInvictus
SolInvictus
  • Member since: Oct. 15, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 17
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 09:59 PM Reply

At 4/28/07 04:11 PM, Korriken wrote: "what do you need steel pipe for?" fixing a water leak
"what do you need pyrodex for?" I hunt with a muzzle loader
you can get fuse off of the internet.

and thats one of the more complicated ones.


VESTRUM BARDUSIS MIHI EXTASUM
Heathenry; it's not for you
"calling atheism a belief is like calling a conviction belief"

BBS Signature
Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 11:13 PM Reply

At 4/28/07 09:59 PM, SolInvictus wrote:
and thats one of the more complicated ones.

yep, then you got the Coke bottle cluster bomb, that involves a coke bottle instead of a pipe, some paste and a big box of BBs. you figure out the rest.

bombs are not hard to make and can be VERY deadly in a tightly packed area.

the biggest danger to making bombs is avoiding static electricity and friction. you gotta ground your pipe before assembling the bomb, and make sure none of the powder is on the threads at the ends of the pipes before you screw on the ends. a simple wax coating on the inside of the pipe will avoid a lot of the dangers of the static as well.

however I wonder. Would I get a ban slapped on me for giving details on making a weapon? I'm thinking yes.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 28th, 2007 @ 11:19 PM Reply

At 4/28/07 04:07 PM, Brick-top wrote:
Wait a minute that type of problem has only become serous recently and the government is doing its best to stop it (AKA sitting around and play Tetris)

playing tetris? that explains a lot....


I can honestly say that someone isn't going to burst into my house and shoot me in the head. Knives and swords are more of a problem. Besides the scenario you are talking about you would have to be sitting around pointing a gun at the door. Can you honestly say between the 3 to 10 seconds you have to react to grab a weapon, take it off safety point and fire? Not unless you keep it under a cushion where that would make you a weirdo.

well, I'm not talking about you sitting around, then someone kicks your door in. Not too many people would take such a high risk just to rob you. I'm talking about, it's the middle of the night and someone pries your back door open with a crowbar. what are you going to do if they have a gun? what CAN you do? unless you know some badass jujitsu or something, there isn't much you can do, especially if you don't know how to take a gun out of someone's hand or knock them out cold in 1 or 2 blows.

Many robbers won't seek you out and kill you, they're more interested in your valuables. However, if you see them, they probably won't be taking too many chances on you identifying them later in a lineup. what's the best action? kill the witness.
I'm not rushing a gun with my sword, screw that. Gimme my gun and watch as i whip around a corner and lay one into his chest.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

JerkClock
JerkClock
  • Member since: May. 6, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 36
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 29th, 2007 @ 03:29 AM Reply

At 4/19/07 12:10 AM, JoS wrote:
I think there is a problem when a person can get a gun quicker than they can get their oil changed.

Only when he uses it on people who don't have guns themselves. When it's legal, law abiding citizens have them too.

cyrusunf
cyrusunf
  • Member since: Sep. 30, 2005
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 01
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 29th, 2007 @ 03:44 AM Reply

But that bring it down to who are the "wrong" people? what about social injustice?

Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 29th, 2007 @ 04:02 AM Reply

At 4/29/07 03:44 AM, cyrusunf wrote: But that bring it down to who are the "wrong" people? what about social injustice?

what social injustice are you talking about? There are no social injustice in america, unless you're talking about affirmative action, that's a pretty big injustice.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Brick-top
Brick-top
  • Member since: Oct. 29, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 21
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 29th, 2007 @ 07:36 AM Reply

At 4/28/07 11:19 PM, Korriken wrote:
At 4/28/07 04:07 PM, Brick-top wrote:
Wait a minute that type of problem has only become serous recently and the government is doing its best to stop it (AKA sitting around and play Tetris)
playing tetris? that explains a lot....

I can honestly say that someone isn't going to burst into my house and shoot me in the head. Knives and swords are more of a problem. Besides the scenario you are talking about you would have to be sitting around pointing a gun at the door. Can you honestly say between the 3 to 10 seconds you have to react to grab a weapon, take it off safety point and fire? Not unless you keep it under a cushion where that would make you a weirdo.
well, I'm not talking about you sitting around, then someone kicks your door in. Not too many people would take such a high risk just to rob you. I'm talking about, it's the middle of the night and someone pries your back door open with a crowbar. what are you going to do if they have a gun? what CAN you do? unless you know some badass jujitsu or something, there isn't much you can do, especially if you don't know how to take a gun out of someone's hand or knock them out cold in 1 or 2 blows.

I see that you have never been robbed before. What you would be looking for is open windows, alarm boxes, crappy window glass and places for a cat or dog to enter and exit a house. Just prying the door open isn't any good because you can get those safety doors where theres a lock at the top and bottom of the door including a dead bolt. Also a parked car would indicate that you are home. And at 4am in the morning its not too hard to guess that you will be in bed. They have time, stealth and the advantage that they are ready and armed. So even if you have a gun you are more likely to get it first. BUT!! you have the advantage of knowing your surroundings, so walking in the dark and knowing the sounds at night however professional robbers can get around this. So either way, you're going to get it in the neck.


Many robbers won't seek you out and kill you, they're more interested in your valuables. However, if you see them, they probably won't be taking too many chances on you identifying them later in a lineup. what's the best action? kill the witness.
I'm not rushing a gun with my sword, screw that. Gimme my gun and watch as i whip around a corner and lay one into his chest.

"Take that you filthy robbing bastard! (BANG, turns lights on) OH SHIT!"
"Emergancy service how can I help you?"
"Ehh uhh, yeah I uhh just shot my mother"
"Is she still breathing sir?"
"I'm pretty sure shes dead, but I stopped the bitch from stealing my stuff!"

To quote Braveheart

Stephan: God tells me he can get me out of this mess, but he's pretty sure your fucked.

Elfer
Elfer
  • Member since: Jan. 21, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Moderator
Level 38
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 29th, 2007 @ 09:36 AM Reply

At 4/28/07 11:19 PM, Korriken wrote: Many robbers won't seek you out and kill you, they're more interested in your valuables. However, if you see them, they probably won't be taking too many chances on you identifying them later in a lineup. what's the best action?

Murder is not the best option to avoid jail.

D2Kvirus
D2Kvirus
  • Member since: Jan. 31, 2001
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 38
Filmmaker
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 29th, 2007 @ 11:48 AM Reply

At 4/28/07 01:40 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
No, it says, word for word, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Shall not be infringed? Sounds pretty clear to me. You probably read "well-regulated" as "government-regulated", which would be typical and understandable.

Of what, understanding the English language? At what point in that sentence does it say Joe Public can buy a gun at K Mart?

At what point is a guy in suburbia helping the upkeep of a Free State, if they just sit at home and watch whichever war the US are involved in on Fox News? That is NOT part of a weel-regulated militai, so therefore the person should not have a gun. It says it right there. In fact, I'll break it down into the meat and bones.
* Well-regulated militia.
* Necessary.
* Security of Free State.

If you aren't part of a militia, and iuf a militia is not necessary, you should not have a gun. These ALL come before the bastardised segment about the right to bear arms.

At the time the Second Amendment was drafted, yes, America needed a militia to help fight the British.
It was not to fight the British. It was seen necessary to the security of a free state. Why do you get confused here? Did you think free speech only applies to congress members on the house floor too?

Who did the Americans happen to be fighting with at the time the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were drafted? Here's a hint, it wasn't Martians.

And we all know Free Speech is something to ask your lawyer exercise in court more than it is to exercise in public.

For example, do you thing Cho Seung-hui could've convinced the gunstore owner/clerk he was forming a militia?
Yea. So know what kind of point did you plan on making?

Easy.

CS-h: "Can I buy a gun, please?"
GSO: "Are you a member of a well-orginised and regulated militia?"
CS-h: "Well, no, but..."
GSO: "Get the fuck out of my store!"

Unles she had a faked ID, but that's a different can of worms...


Propaganda is to a Democracy what violence is to a Dictatorship
Never underestimate the significance of "significant."
NG Politics Discussion 101

BBS Signature
Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 29th, 2007 @ 01:06 PM Reply

At 4/29/07 11:48 AM, D2Kvirus wrote:
At what point is a guy in suburbia helping the upkeep of a Free State, if they just sit at home and watch whichever war the US are involved in on Fox News? That is NOT part of a weel-regulated militai, so therefore the person should not have a gun. It says it right there. In fact, I'll break it down into the meat and bones.
* Well-regulated militia.
* Necessary.
* Security of Free State.

that's is a classical case of removing some of the legalise from the text in order to alter the meaning of the text.

so we look at the text again.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

we look at the first half.
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of the free state,"

so what IS a militia? well I went and looked it up on dictionary.com

mi·li·tia (mə-lĭsh'ə) Pronunciation Key
n.

1. An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
2. A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.
3. The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.

so you see here, that a militia is an army of ordinary citizens. who are ordinary citizens? everyone! Back in the day, when George Washington was out there popping off the British with his hunting rifle, the american army didn't supply you with everything you needed to fight effectively. You suppled your own gun. This is the basis on which this ammendment was made. Of course, now, the military supplies its soldiers with everything they need to operate.

But, what if China or Mexico(riiiight) got a case of the big nuts and decided to invade america? well, the military can't run around tossing everyone guns and kevlar vests to defend their towns. And thus, why this ammendment is still around. In the event we get invaded by another country we will be needing our militias to fight back in order to protect the country. It won't be TOO effective, considering the armies will have armored vehicles, but it beats just letting their soldiers run door to door slaughtering everyone and raping the women, and don't say it won't happen, because it very well could happen.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

Korriken
Korriken
  • Member since: Jun. 17, 2006
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 05
Gamer
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 29th, 2007 @ 01:15 PM Reply

At 4/29/07 07:36 AM, Brick-top wrote:
I see that you have never been robbed before. What you would be looking for is open windows, alarm boxes, crappy window glass and places for a cat or dog to enter and exit a house. Just prying the door open isn't any good because you can get those safety doors where theres a lock at the top and bottom of the door including a dead bolt. Also a parked car would indicate that you are home. And at 4am in the morning its not too hard to guess that you will be in bed. They have time, stealth and the advantage that they are ready and armed. So even if you have a gun you are more likely to get it first. BUT!! you have the advantage of knowing your surroundings, so walking in the dark and knowing the sounds at night however professional robbers can get around this. So either way, you're going to get it in the neck.

well if they crawl through the doggy door, then they might be pretty freaking small, and you must be pretty freaking stupid to not have a lock on it. of course, anyone with an IQ of about 1.3 would know to lock your windows and doors at night. and the only way through a locked window is by force, and breaking glass makes a LOT of noise. and yes i HAVE had a man come through my window at night before. He wound up with game shot in his side. Was he armed? he had a large knife, but I wasn't about to take any chances. If someone breaks into your house, the others in your house should know to stay put and let you handle the situation, if you are the person with the gun. that way, there isn't any accidental deaths.

If you keep your place locked up, there isn't any way for a criminal to get in without you knowing about it. if they DO get in, you will hear it, and you will be able to defend yourself. Of course, a professional criminal PROBABLY won't try busting in while you're at home, unless he has murder in his mind as well, which isn't too likely. a simple robbery barely gets any investigation, but a murder the cops go all out. Also, if no one is home, no one is there to see or hear you, making the robbery a hell of a lot easier, since you can get in, get the goods, then get out without having to be too quiet about it.

However, some people are simply not that clever, and figure to break in while everyone is home.... that's when you need a gun to blast em into oblivion and be done with it.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

JerkClock
JerkClock
  • Member since: May. 6, 2004
  • Offline.
Forum Stats
Member
Level 36
Blank Slate
Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 29th, 2007 @ 01:18 PM Reply

At 4/29/07 09:36 AM, Elfer wrote:
Murder is not the best option to avoid jail.

Correct, but not all robbers are smart.