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Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

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Elfer
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 12:45 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 12:24 AM, Memorize wrote:
At 4/23/07 07:37 PM, Elfer wrote:
Well, people could lie and claim they know things for sure like the topic starter, but that doesn't make an argument more valid.
And then, people like you could just claim otherwise without presenting a single counter-point.

Well, I did provide some statistical analysis at the top of the page showing that there was no correlation between gun ownership and homicide like the topic starter claimed there was.

Of course, you wouldn't even know anything I've said in this thread, seeing as how you never read posts that people make.

But of course, there's always people like you, people who actually don't provide any points or evidence in a topic, instead choosing to state their opinion and call everyone else stupid.

Memorize
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 12:48 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 12:45 AM, Elfer wrote:
Well, I did provide some statistical analysis at the top of the page showing that there was no correlation between gun ownership and homicide like the topic starter claimed there was.

Goodie.

Now tell me, why would we then waste billions enforcing gun laws when your "statistical analysis" says there will be no difference?

Of course, you wouldn't even know anything I've said in this thread, seeing as how you never read posts that people make.

Unfounded statement.

But of course, there's always people like you, people who actually don't provide any points or evidence in a topic, instead choosing to state their opinion and call everyone else stupid.

I will only when others provide a source as well. If they don't, why should I?

C'mon, I know you might not be intelligent enough to get it, but I think you just might be smart enough to answer that question.

cellardoor6
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 01:14 AM Reply

At 4/23/07 03:25 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:
2. Factual "law." "The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 16,137 murders in 2004 were committed with firearms." (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs////guns.htm)

And by restricting legal firearm ownership, that will lower murder how?

Once again, most gun crimes are committed by people who do not legally own their firearms. Furthermore, only a small fraction of guns purchased legally end up on the illegal market, and therefore are unlikely to be used in crime.

So tell me, what would restricting LEGAL ownership do? Where the hell is their any logic in support of gun control?

Don't say "it will lower crime at least a little bit" because a small fraction of legal gun owners end up committing crime. Because conversely, less crimes would get PREVENTED by armed citizens considering that defensive uses of firearms take place between 800,000 and 2.5 million times a year.

Where is the logic for gun control again? Because the very reason people support gun control becomes a bigger problem if/when gun control becomes implemented.


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

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AzureFenrir
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 04:16 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 12:24 AM, Memorize wrote: And then, people like you could just claim otherwise without presenting a single counter-point.

Apparantly, the topic presented no significant argument against gun control, as I've stated 7 pages ago:

At 4/19/07 01:05 AM, AzureFenrir wrote: In this entire post you have ended up proving that banning handguns seems to have correlations with higher crime rates, a fact extrapolated from one incident. That's hardly enough to make a comment on all forms of gun control, since there are inadequate amounts of data to truly show that regulations tend towards the negative.

I'm still waiting for a response. Until you successfully counter that post, cellardoor's topic proves absolutely nothing against gun control, either.

cellardoor6
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 04:40 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 04:16 AM, AzureFenrir wrote:
At 4/24/07 12:24 AM, Memorize wrote: And then, people like you could just claim otherwise without presenting a single counter-point.
Apparantly, the topic presented no significant argument against gun control, as I've stated 7 pages ago:

Actually I gave more proof against gun control than I've EVER seen for gun control. I'm still waiting patiently for some real facts instead of "omg like cellardoor is not right, he hasn't proven anything therefore more gun control is needed"

At 4/19/07 01:05 AM, AzureFenrir wrote: In this entire post you have ended up proving that banning handguns seems to have correlations with higher crime rates, a fact extrapolated from one incident. That's hardly enough to make a comment on all forms of gun control, since there are inadequate amounts of data to truly show that regulations tend towards the negative.
I'm still waiting for a response. Until you successfully counter that post, cellardoor's topic proves absolutely nothing against gun control, either.

See how fallible your argument is?

You're pretending that gun control is effective as a given fact, a foundation of your entire argument. You base the validity of YOUR view that greater gun control would work, by ignoring the facts and pretending it doesn't prove that gun control doesn't work, yet it does. Read the entire thread and read ALL of my links.

Then actually give an argument instead of basically saying "I am already right because you haven't proven anything in my eyes, yet I provide no facts to the contrary, but I don't have to because I'm already right"


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

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AzureFenrir
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 05:57 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 04:40 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: See how fallible your argument is?

You're pretending that gun control is effective as a given fact, a foundation of your entire argument. You base the validity of YOUR view that greater gun control would work, by ignoring the facts and pretending it doesn't prove that gun control doesn't work, yet it does. Read the entire thread and read ALL of my links.

Then actually give an argument instead of basically saying "I am already right because you haven't proven anything in my eyes, yet I provide no facts to the contrary, but I don't have to because I'm already right"

And there lies your problem with understanding my post. You ASSUMED that my argument is to support gun control, while my ACTUAL argument, as I've clearly stated in the post, is that your proof is INSIGNIFICANT. See the difference between the two arguments? I never even said I was right. I only said that you, being the topic creator, were wrong.

Now, I don't claim to be able to prove that gun control is a good thing. The whole argument is based on people's opinions, since I have seen neither side offer solid support for their case. However, since you made the topic claiming that you have proof that gun control doesn't work, I'm simply proving you wrong, as you, being the advocate of an opinion, has the burden of proof. I'm not proving anything, just equalizing the two sides.

And no, don't flatter yourself. Your proof consisted of an argument based entirely on card-stacking and an argument that only correlates to the most extreme case (gun ban) and not to th less extreme one (gun regulation and control). Yes, I did read the rest of your posts, all of which either referenced your "proof" in your first post, disproven other posts, or offered speculative arguments, which both sides can equally make. None of them added any more data or even correlative support to your position.

If you want to argue speculatively though, I can do that as well. Just don't claim that you have more "proof" than the other side.

WolvenBear
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 06:09 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 05:57 AM, AzureFenrir wrote: And there lies your problem with understanding my post. You ASSUMED that my argument is to support gun control, while my ACTUAL argument, as I've clearly stated in the post, is that your proof is INSIGNIFICANT. See the difference between the two arguments? I never even said I was right. I only said that you, being the topic creator, were wrong.

There has yet to be a mass murder stopped by police. There are hundreds stopped by ordinary citizens brandishing guns. That is more proof than anyone demanding gun control every presented.


Now, I don't claim to be able to prove that gun control is a good thing. The whole argument is based on people's opinions, since I have seen neither side offer solid support for their case. However, since you made the topic claiming that you have proof that gun control doesn't work, I'm simply proving you wrong, as you, being the advocate of an opinion, has the burden of proof. I'm not proving anything, just equalizing the two sides.

Hmmm. That's a hard one. Virgina Tech was teh paragon of gun control, yet 32 people died and more were injured. Hmmmmmm.......

If you want to argue speculatively though, I can do that as well. Just don't claim that you have more "proof" than the other side.

Well, considering the gun control side can offer nothing to their credit and the pro gun side can offer mounds of evidence. I'll go with the pro-gun side.

But maybe that's just cause where I used to live, people wanted to kill me, and were terrified because I was better with a knife then anyone in the neighborhood was with a gun. And that's why whenever they robbed my house, they stole weapons first.


Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.

AzureFenrir
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 06:33 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 06:09 AM, WolvenBear wrote: There has yet to be a mass murder stopped by police. There are hundreds stopped by ordinary citizens brandishing guns. That is more proof than anyone demanding gun control every presented.

There are also tons of mass murders committed by people with guns, and tons of mass murders committed by people with weapons such as autos and baseball bats. There are also hundreds stopped by ordinary citizens brandishing baseball bats or heavy objects as well as hundreds of murders stopped by ordinary citizens with guns. Card-stacking isn't a valid argument in support of gun control.

Besides, gun control does not equal gun ban. Even if that argument isn't card-stacked, it only offers evidence against gun ban.

Hmmm. That's a hard one. Virgina Tech was teh paragon of gun control, yet 32 people died and more were injured. Hmmmmmm.......

Er...you aren't serious, right? Virginia Tech was located in a state with extremely lax gun laws, and the killer even used a legally obtained gun to commit the massacre. I see almost no reason how that event is any evidence against gun control.

Well, considering the gun control side can offer nothing to their credit and the pro gun side can offer mounds of evidence. I'll go with the pro-gun side.

I would like to see this "mounds of evidence," since none of the gun proponents that I encountered had offered anything close to actual evidence yet.

But maybe that's just cause where I used to live, people wanted to kill me, and were terrified because I was better with a knife then anyone in the neighborhood was with a gun. And that's why whenever they robbed my house, they stole weapons first.

OK, that's nice to know.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 06:37 AM Reply

At 4/23/07 10:30 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Sure does. A private citizen and a cop are two different people (wow, that sounded dumb, but...). A cop has had background checks, training and is imbued with legal authority to protect the people. A private citizen who has a gun (in most states) has had very little background checking, and probably hasn't had to pass a course.

A private citizen who has a gun has to meet the same qualifications to purchase a gun as a police officer. The issue with background checks is how to address mental illness. Currently this side of the law has some issues that need to be sorted out as:

A. Who has the authority to decide on who is not mentally fit to own a firearm--a Judge who committs a person sight unseen or after a medical doctor has submitted an opinion after intensive therapy/diagnosis.

B. Making this part of the background check in a way that does not interfere with the HIPPA Act.

As for training you do not need intensive training to own a gun. In most cases the person who is predisposed to buy a firearm has grown up with them and have known how to shoot them since they were little. Furthermore, most people who have no prior experience with a firearm usually seek out training because of nervousness and anxiety.

As for CC holders, most states require some sort of training before they may receive their permits.

Also did you know that a cop is not required to intervene on your behalf if they feel that their life or well-being are put at undo risk?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 06:49 AM Reply

At 4/23/07 03:07 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Because it is illogical and not factually supported. An opinion can be wrong in terms of factual "correctness."

No it is not "illogical" but it is counter-intuitive to some.

I have a clean record, attended and taught over 150 gun safety seminars, father of three who exercises his 2nd Amendment right. How much do you know about your other customers?"
1. A business has a right to refuse service.

Very true, but the point of the card is to start a dialogue between customer and business and let the business owner/manager know about the business they are losing.

2. YOU might have a clean record, you might be a safe gun owner, but your "right" to own a gun shouldn't trample on my right to a safe life.

Actually you do not need to put right in ""...it is spelled out in the Constitution right after the right to speech/assemble/religion/etc and before you get to unlawfal search/seizure, no quartering of troops or banning slavery.

As to your "right to a safe life"...nice hysteronics. How about those 30 people Cho killed in that engineering building? It was a gun free zone. How many people would be alive today if VT had been able to allow ex-military or someone other civilian who was rigorously trained to carry on a college campus? How many of those would be living a "safe life" right now if someone would've been able to shoot back after he shot-up his first classroom?

Furthermore, do you drive? Statistically speaking your right to a safe life is put more at risk every time you get behind the wheel of a car than by a CC holder. Hell there are probably more people in this country who have been endangered by vehicles suddenly crashing into their house or place of business/employment than have been endangered by a CC holder...


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 07:21 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 06:33 AM, AzureFenrir wrote:
Hmmm. That's a hard one. Virgina Tech was teh paragon of gun control, yet 32 people died and more were injured. Hmmmmmm.......
Er...you aren't serious, right? Virginia Tech was located in a state with extremely lax gun laws, and the killer even used a legally obtained gun to commit the massacre. I see almost no reason how that event is any evidence against gun control.

Actually your comment is only correct on the surface, but when you look at the specifics you'll see that the person you are responding to has a point.

While VA has extremely lax gun control laws, the most liberal in the nation, the VT campus has strict gun control regulations in that even CC holders are/were prohibited from having their weapons on campus. Therefore you could say that VT was a microcosom of the most prohibitive sort of gun control: an area with an outright gun ban.

Cho was able to procure a weapon from outside the gun ban area and bring it into said area. The students and professors in that engineering building were then trapped by Cho and could offer little other than passive defense (blocking the door...often sacrificing at least one life.

The point here is "what if": what if a CC holder would've had his handgun and been able to put up a more active and effective defense by shooting Cho before he had shot many of those 30 people. Furthermore, how many of those people who would be shot before our hypothetical gun nut took out Cho would still be alive because EMTs would have been able to provide care sooner?

However we will never know because of VA's gun control law against allowing CC holders to carry on campus...

So you see VT does in fact offer up a good example of the ineffectiveness of gun control...or at the very least provides a good basis to question it.


I would like to see this "mounds of evidence," since none of the gun proponents that I encountered had offered anything close to actual evidence yet.

* In the 31 states that now have "concealed right to carry" laws, murders were down, on average, by 8.5 percent.

* Rapes were down 5 percent and serious assaults by 7 percent.

* In cities with populations of more than 250,000, murder rates dropped after the passage of such laws by an average of 13.5 percent.

* The most dramatic falls in murder rates were in areas where the number of women carrying firearms was high.

* The study found that for every woman who carries a concealed hand, the murder rate fell by three to four times more than it would have if one more man had carried a concealed gun.

* If states with concealed handgun bans had allowed them in 1992, about 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and more than 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided.

* In addition, the researchers found no evidence of an increase in accidental killings or suicides in states with concealed carry laws.

SOURCE: Study done by U of Chicago

Here's an interesting link on the rationality of the assault rifle ban published in the Journal of Contemporary Law

Here's an interesting read on The Racist Roots of Gun Control...


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 08:02 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 07:21 AM, TheMason wrote: The point here is "what if": what if a CC holder would've had his handgun and been able to put up a more active and effective defense by shooting Cho before he had shot many of those 30 people. Furthermore, how many of those people who would be shot before our hypothetical gun nut took out Cho would still be alive because EMTs would have been able to provide care sooner?

The "what if" can also be applied in other ways. Assume that Virginia were to have, for conveinence, the gun control policies that I support (namely, requiring permits to possess guns, since that is the most relevant here), Cho may not have been able to secure a gun to use in the shooting. He may have been able to get one from the black market, but he may also be discouraged and decide to commit the massacre using a melee weapon instead, which can be stopped by people.

There's also the "what if" of - even if the students were allowed to bring guns, would they be able to gather the nerves to shoot back in such a situation? If they had such courage, wouldn't they also be able to mass jump Cho and disable/disarm him with manpower? There's too many "what if"'s in VA that it could not plausibly be used to argue for either side.

[Stuff]
SOURCE: Study done by U of Chicago

I love you, you're the first person that I came across that actually referenced any proof on any aspect of gun control. I will not try to disprove that source, nor do I disagree with it, for that matter. I simply believe in the requirement of permits to carry guns, enforcing records on gun sales and transfers to aid in investigations, as well as having stricter anti-juvenile gun possession laws/education.

Either way, the article has proven that allowing the possession of concealed arms is statistically beneficial. It does say nothing about other forms of gun control, such as the regulatory measures that I support. Thus, many aspects of the issue is still under debate.

Here's an interesting link on the rationality of the assault rifle ban published in the Journal of Contemporary Law

I guess the paper offered proof that would link assault rifles with handguns, this discrediting people who are against allowing assault weapons. I didn't have time to actually read the essay in detail though, so I'll reserve commenting on it until I come back from class.

Here's an interesting read on The Racist Roots of Gun Control...

Interesting, although that's not really relevant to the argument.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 11:15 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 12:48 AM, Memorize wrote: Now tell me, why would we then waste billions enforcing gun laws when your "statistical analysis" says there will be no difference?

In order to keep known crazies and violent offenders from getting them easily. That's about it. Had you read my shit, you'd know I'm not calling for tighter gun control, just a registration system for firearms, and a tight watch on gun shop owners, which as cell has shown with his sources, provide the majority of illegal firearms to criminals.

Of course, you wouldn't even know anything I've said in this thread, seeing as how you never read posts that people make.
Unfounded statement.

Well, since you seem to be assuming that I'm advocating tighter gun control, there's one, not to mention your next statement...

I will only when others provide a source as well. If they don't, why should I?

I've been providing plenty of sources for shit I've been saying.

In any case, what I'm really calling for isn't more gun control, if anything, it's less gun control implemented in a more effective way. What's the point trying to keep things like handguns out of the hands of responsible, legal owners, when in reality, it's usually illegally acquired firearms being used in crimes?

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 11:25 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 08:02 AM, AzureFenrir wrote:
There's also the "what if" of - even if the students were allowed to bring guns, would they be able to gather the nerves to shoot back in such a situation? If they had such courage, wouldn't they also be able to mass jump Cho and disable/disarm him with manpower? There's too many "what if"'s in VA that it could not plausibly be used to argue for either side.

Well I'm pretty sure they would have put a lot of holes into him well before he had killed 32 people.
But then maybe it would have turned into a giant massacre because everyone would be like "holy shit who's the shooter???" since everyone would have guns.

So actually maybe everyone would be dead right now, not to mention the property damage.
In conclusion: don't let people carry guns around all the time haha. Especially not college kids. Jesus Christ can you imagine the accidents just at the drunk parties???


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 01:18 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 06:37 AM, TheMason wrote: Also did you know that a cop is not required to intervene on your behalf if they feel that their life or well-being are put at undo risk?

Dammit, you beat me to the punch.

The only thing that I would add is that it's not the job of the police to protect the populace at large, if it was we'd each have our own personal police bodyguard to accompany us everywhere we went. No, the three main duties of your local police department is to arrest, investigate, and clean up the mess after the fact. They are not bodyguards, they're overpaid janitors who attempt to enforce the law.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 03:11 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 06:33 AM, AzureFenrir wrote: There are also tons of mass murders committed by people with guns, and tons of mass murders committed by people with weapons such as autos and baseball bats. There are also hundreds stopped by ordinary citizens brandishing baseball bats or heavy objects as well as hundreds of murders stopped by ordinary citizens with guns. Card-stacking isn't a valid argument in support of gun control.

There AREN'T tons of mass murders committed with baseball bats. A baseball bat would break after beating one or two people to death. A baseball bat mass murder isn't feasible, whereas a gun or car one is.
Likewize there aren't hundreds of examples of people with baseball bats stopping mass shootings.

What the mound of evidence shows is that mass shootings that rack up a large amount of victims do it in "gun free" zones, an against unarmed populous. Card stacking (or looking at the evidence and seeing that it supports your theory) is indeed a valid argument against gun control.


Besides, gun control does not equal gun ban. Even if that argument isn't card-stacked, it only offers evidence against gun ban.

If a gun ban in and of itself isn't going to work, then banning guns incrementally isn't going to work either.

Er...you aren't serious, right? Virginia Tech was located in a state with extremely lax gun laws, and the killer even used a legally obtained gun to commit the massacre. I see almost no reason how that event is any evidence against gun control.

Because the rest of the student body was unarmed, following the rules of the university. To people who don't want to be expelled or fired, they will follow the rules. To someone who plans on...oh say...murdering 32 students then killing himself, a ban is irrelevant.

I would like to see this "mounds of evidence," since none of the gun proponents that I encountered had offered anything close to actual evidence yet.

Sure they have. You call it card stacking. Normal people call it evidence.

For example:
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/latestnews/200741 8/45560.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/2628397.s tm

Wow! Shootings happen in places where guns are banned! Miraculous!
No no, really, take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "lalala".
Oh wait, you'll probably just say "card stacking", right?

At 4/24/07 08:02 AM, AzureFenrir wrote: The "what if" can also be applied in other ways. Assume that Virginia were to have, for conveinence, the gun control policies that I support (namely, requiring permits to possess guns, since that is the most relevant here), Cho may not have been able to secure a gun to use in the shooting. He may have been able to get one from the black market, but he may also be discouraged and decide to commit the massacre using a melee weapon instead, which can be stopped by people.

Everything that we know about Cho says that he was very determined. He found that he was able to only buy one gun a month. He then waited long enough to buy at least three guns (the two he used and one found in his room). He bought clips on the internet. If he'd have been denied on one front he'd have found another.


There's also the "what if" of - even if the students were allowed to bring guns, would they be able to gather the nerves to shoot back in such a situation? If they had such courage, wouldn't they also be able to mass jump Cho and disable/disarm him with manpower? There's too many "what if"'s in VA that it could not plausibly be used to argue for either side.

It's not so much a "what if", because out of a thousand people, surely one would've been bold enough to shoot back. We have plenty of examples of people taking down shooters when they themselves are armed. There's no reason to believe that this is different, especially given that we had some people brave enough to block the doors with their bodies, knowing this would be certain death. If the RA had been armed...this would've ended in teh dorms.

Interesting, although that's not really relevant to the argument.

No, but it is interesting to see where the debate started.
And it's interesting to note that everyone of the liberal elite that harps on how we need to ban guns, have guns for their own protection or have armed guards.


Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 05:05 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 03:11 PM, WolvenBear wrote: There AREN'T tons of mass murders committed with baseball bats. A baseball bat would break after beating one or two people to death. A baseball bat mass murder isn't feasible, whereas a gun or car one is.
Likewize there aren't hundreds of examples of people with baseball bats stopping mass shootings.

I haven't seen any statistics on this issue, and while it's not hard to imagine mass murders being committed more frequently with more efficient weapons, there's also individual murders to consider, many of which add up to exceed the damage caused by these mass murders. These individual murders are committed with a lot of things, and equally stopped with a lot of things.

I've also not seen any statistics on people with guns stopping mass shootings exceeding people with other things. In my opinion, when faced with desparation, almost anything can be used as a defensive weapon, even against opponents bearing AK47's. If a person is courageous enough to take out a gun when hard-pressed, wouldn't he also be courageous enough to throw a flower pot at the attacker's face?

Of course, this is all speculative until actual evidence can be presented. In any case, I don't support banning of guns (well, maybe heavy artillery and military-grade guns like M-16s and sniper rifles). I simply support gun permits and a log of all firearm transactions to keep legal guns out of the hands of mentally unstable individuals and to ease tracking of crimes committed with said legal guns.

What the mound of evidence shows is that mass shootings that rack up a large amount of victims do it in "gun free" zones, an against unarmed populous. Card stacking (or looking at the evidence and seeing that it supports your theory) is indeed a valid argument against gun control.

And, of course, they are a valid argument against gun BAN. Gun control involves lots and lots of other things that has nothing to do with a ban. For example, requiring a drivers license-like permit to carry guns? I never denied that there are evidence against a strict outlawing of firearms, whether in part of in whole.

If a gun ban in and of itself isn't going to work, then banning guns incrementally isn't going to work either.

See above. Control =/= ban.

Because the rest of the student body was unarmed, following the rules of the university. To people who don't want to be expelled or fired, they will follow the rules. To someone who plans on...oh say...murdering 32 students then killing himself, a ban is irrelevant.

Perhaps it was also because of Virginia's lax gun laws that Cho was able to get his hands on one so easily. Perhaps even if the student body was armed, they would be too afraid to shoot back, just like they were too afraid to hide behind a desk and collectively throw textbooks at him in an attempt to knock him out. Perhaps if the student body was armed, there would be even more chaos.

As I said before, the Virginia Tech shooting has too many factors that could support both sides of the argument. Besides, gun control, once again, does not mean gun ban, NOR does it mean incremental gun ban, which is the same thing as a gun ban.

Sure they have. You call it card stacking. Normal people call it evidence.

For example:
http://www.chinapost.com.tw/latestnews/200741 8/45560.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/2628397.s tm

Wow! Shootings happen in places where guns are banned! Miraculous!
No no, really, take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "lalala".
Oh wait, you'll probably just say "card stacking", right?

I actually noticed this little tidbit in your first link:

The shooting was rare in a country where handguns are strictly banned.

Seriously, though, I have, ONCE AGAIN, never supported or defended gun BANS. MY ORIGINAL RESPONSE TO CELLARDOOR6'S POST CONCEDED THAT HE DID PROVIDE ENOUGH SUPPORT TO CONCLUDE THAT ***BANS*** ARE LIKELY TO NOT BE EFFECTIVE. I simply stated that he DID NOT provide enough support that OTHER ASPECTS OF GUN CONTROL, such as the one that JoS proposed (background checks and permits, namely), lead to higher crime rates. Thank you for not reading my posts, and thanks for that ad-hominem attack.

Everything that we know about Cho says that he was very determined. He found that he was able to only buy one gun a month. He then waited long enough to buy at least three guns (the two he used and one found in his room). He bought clips on the internet. If he'd have been denied on one front he'd have found another.

I give you this one. I need to do more research on Cho himself before I can say anything about it.

It's not so much a "what if", because out of a thousand people, surely one would've been bold enough to shoot back. We have plenty of examples of people taking down shooters when they themselves are armed. There's no reason to believe that this is different, especially given that we had some people brave enough to block the doors with their bodies, knowing this would be certain death. If the RA had been armed...this would've ended in teh dorms.

Surely one should also be brave enough to realize that they can throw stuff at the shooter to distract them. Books work pretty well, and so do chairs, since all you need to do is inflict enough pain so that Cho drops his weapon. There's other what-if debates there, but there's nothing conclusive that would show that the massacre would be stopped if the students were allowed to bring guns. Every argument that we could make is nothing more than speculative.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 05:17 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 03:11 PM, WolvenBear wrote:
There AREN'T tons of mass murders committed with baseball bats. A baseball bat would break after beating one or two people to death. A baseball bat mass murder isn't feasible, whereas a gun or car one is.

Well, well, look at that. Exactly. Since a baseball bat mass murdering spree isn't feasible, any claim to ban baseball bats would be highly suspect. However...since guns are built to kill, getting rid of them (or, at the least, enforcing and restricting them) is the solution.

Likewize there aren't hundreds of examples of people with baseball bats stopping mass shootings.

As if there are numerous examples of civillians with guns stopping mass shootings? There are more examples of those people killing family, friends, themselves or starting mass shootings.

And it's interesting to note that everyone of the liberal elite that harps on how we need to ban guns, have guns for their own protection or have armed guards.

That's a specious claim. I don't have guns or armed guards...

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 06:05 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 05:05 PM, AzureFenrir wrote: I haven't seen any statistics on this issue, and while it's not hard to imagine mass murders being committed more frequently with more efficient weapons, there's also individual murders to consider, many of which add up to exceed the damage caused by these mass murders. These individual murders are committed with a lot of things, and equally stopped with a lot of things.

It's also a lot easier to kill a single person than it is a group of people. With a knife, you can sneak up on the person, and by the time they notice you, they're trying to hold their throat together. Trying to walk up to a crowd and stab multiple people to death is a tad trickier.

A lot of individual criminals are deterred by GUNS. When confronting a little old lady, she's just not as scary with a knife as is the 6'5 280lbs guy with a knife. Nor is she as dangerous.
http://www.handguncontrol.net/fear_of_the_arm ed_citizen.htm
Criminals don't want confrontation. They choose what they think will be weak, easy victims.
Guns are also a reason why many crimes are aborted. As many as 2.5 million crimes a year (probably a tad bloated) are stopped by lawful gun owners every year.
http://www.rense.com/general76/univ.htm


I've also not seen any statistics on people with guns stopping mass shootings exceeding people with other things. In my opinion, when faced with desparation, almost anything can be used as a defensive weapon, even against opponents bearing AK47's. If a person is courageous enough to take out a gun when hard-pressed, wouldn't he also be courageous enough to throw a flower pot at the attacker's face?

Well, your opinion isn't supported by fact. How many incidents of mass shooting have been stopped by people with flower pots? Hockey sticks? Frying pans? Can't find any you say?
The people who take on shooters are generally not desperate. They are cool and collected, because they are prepared to defend themselves. And they have the means. Of course people aren't going to grab a flower pot and rush the killer coming down the hallway. They'd be dead before they got halfway to him.

And, of course, they are a valid argument against gun BAN. Gun control involves lots and lots of other things that has nothing to do with a ban. For example, requiring a drivers license-like permit to carry guns? I never denied that there are evidence against a strict outlawing of firearms, whether in part of in whole.

But what you don't say is how demanding a permit would help. Most street punks break the laws we have in place, so demandign they do ONE MORE THING that they will ignore won't really help.

Perhaps it was also because of Virginia's lax gun laws that Cho was able to get his hands on one so easily. Perhaps even if the student body was armed, they would be too afraid to shoot back, just like they were too afraid to hide behind a desk and collectively throw textbooks at him in an attempt to knock him out. Perhaps if the student body was armed, there would be even more chaos.

Perhaps space monkeys will decend on Cincinatti and kill us all with nickles.

That's stupid. I tell you what. I'm gonna come and start shooting at you, but I'll be nice, I'll let you throw a book first. Doesn't sound too attractive does it. At best, you're going to piss me off before I kill you. You're certainly not going to knock out a killer with a text book. Heck, in the time it takes to expose yourself, cock your arm and aim, you've been shot 6 times.

It wasn't Virginia's lax laws, because they made Cho wait two months to do his crime. He ordered clips and ammo online from Iowa. Cho was going to get his guns.
There are no examples of shootings going WORSE because the victims are armed. None. All there are is examples of the shooter being shot by an armed citizen.


As I said before, the Virginia Tech shooting has too many factors that could support both sides of the argument. Besides, gun control, once again, does not mean gun ban, NOR does it mean incremental gun ban, which is the same thing as a gun ban.

There was one factor in VA Tech: Cho was armed, his victims weren't. The results: 32 dead, 29 (maybe more) injured. You can speculate all you want, but if VA Tech was not a gun free zone, we wouldn't have the massive body count that we do.

Thank you for not reading my posts, and thanks for that ad-hominem attack.

Ad hominim means personal attack. I was attacking your argument. (And yes, I didn't read through multiple pages, but then again, they weren't terribly relevant.) When I mentioned that the multitude of examples support my claim, and by proxy cellardoors, you called it "card stacking" and said it meant nothing.

No ad hominim.
But if we're not allowed to look at the general trend of events, the thousands and thousands of actual events that happen in real life...we're just arguing theory.

I give you this one. I need to do more research on Cho himself before I can say anything about it.

He'd been planning this for quite sometime. The media likes to peddle the idea that he came up with this idea the night before, ran out and bought all his stuff and did the crime. But Virginia's "lax laws" made it to where he had to wait two months to get the guns he wanted. The "one gun a month" law didn't work here. The background check didn't work. The gun free zone didn't work. These are three laws that while not quite bans, are gun control. None worked.

Surely one should also be brave enough to realize that they can throw stuff at the shooter to distract them. Books work pretty well, and so do chairs, since all you need to do is inflict enough pain so that Cho drops his weapon. There's other what-if debates there, but there's nothing conclusive that would show that the massacre would be stopped if the students were allowed to bring guns. Every argument that we could make is nothing more than speculative.

That's not a debate tho. You're not going to make a shooter drop his weapon with a book. Dude kicks in the door and starts shooting, and you're gonna grab a copy of Harry Potter? Either you don't have much real world experience with guns, or you care more about theory than reality. Gun beats book every time. Read above on why this silly argument fails. I can shoot you from much farther away than you can throw a chair or book.
It's not speculation here bud. Cho knew he had defenseless victims (he gloats about it on his tape) and he took advantage of it. He was a coward. The very arming of VA Tech students might've been enough to dissuade him. If not, one of them would've shot him dead or injured him. We never see a mass shooting where all the victims are armed. It just doesn't happen. Ever.


Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 06:12 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 05:17 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Well, well, look at that. Exactly. Since a baseball bat mass murdering spree isn't feasible, any claim to ban baseball bats would be highly suspect. However...since guns are built to kill, getting rid of them (or, at the least, enforcing and restricting them) is the solution.

Yet, New York city has done just that. Aluminum bats are now banned.
Regardless, since England has banned gun, violent crime has risen dramatically. So banning guns isn't the answer. Restricting them doesn't work either, see Virginia.

As if there are numerous examples of civillians with guns stopping mass shootings? There are more examples of those people killing family, friends, themselves or starting mass shootings.

Yea, there are thousands of examples every month of people with guns stopping crime, normally by defending themselves.
I know you're trying to live up to your name here, but there are more examples of people stopping mass shootings with a gun than people doing mass shootings.
The vaunted "OH MY GOD THEY KILLED THEIR SISTER" example is mostly bogus too. For example, if I come into your house and shoot your sister (assuming you have one), then you shoot me, your sister falls into the category of "shootings within the home" (After all, you had a gun and she got shot). If, furthermore, you know me and consider me your friend, I then fall under the category of "victim known to the assailant", (after all I was your friend, and you shot me...my shooting your sister doesn't matter much for stats).
When you consider that in most rapes and murders, the victim knows the attacker...then in any case where they defend themselves with a gun, they are shooting an aquiantance.

That's a specious claim. I don't have guns or armed guards...

And you're not part of the liberal elite. Unless I missed something and you're either a famous celebrity or a law maker...


Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 06:33 PM Reply

I consider myself a liberal but I too agree that gun control is pointless and doesn't work. Mass shootings don't happen because guns are easy to get, they happen because guns exist and people want to do mass shootings! The theory that banning guns would make mass shootings impossible is rediculous. Drugs are illegal and people are still able to use them, so how would making guns illegal be any different? With this kind of government, you can't make anything go away by banning it, you can only shift it to the black market.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 08:17 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 05:17 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:
Well, well, look at that. Exactly. Since a baseball bat mass murdering spree isn't feasible, any claim to ban baseball bats would be highly suspect. However...since guns are built to kill, getting rid of them (or, at the least, enforcing and restricting them) is the solution.

well, let's see. if you take away the guns, then the next more effective thing will be used. bombs. making a bomb is simple, even easier to make than a gun, and when set off in a crowded area, kills many people. just imagine a guy with a bomb in his satchel at school, walks by a crowd of people he hates and sets it off. or worse, he leaves the bag at the school, attaches a short range radio, and when he hears the sounds of nearby people, sets it off. or even worse, places a timer on the bomb, leaves it behind in a classroom, and in the next class it goes off. Guns aren't do bad.

As if there are numerous examples of civillians with guns stopping mass shootings? There are more examples of those people killing family, friends, themselves or starting mass shootings.

well, you also ignore the fact that most mass shootings take place in an area full of unarmed people, so how is disarming people going to stop that? if you can't obtain it legally, just get it illegally.


And it's interesting to note that everyone of the liberal elite that harps on how we need to ban guns, have guns for their own protection or have armed guards.
That's a specious claim. I don't have guns or armed guards...

you're also common folk. Look at Rosie O'donnel, who supports a total gun ban... except her kids bodyguard is armed. hypocritical.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 09:06 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 11:15 AM, Elfer wrote:
In order to keep known crazies and violent offenders from getting them easily. That's about it. Had you read my shit, you'd know I'm not calling for tighter gun control, just a registration system for firearms, and a tight watch on gun shop owners, which as cell has shown with his sources, provide the majority of illegal firearms to criminals.

That's all fine and dandy.

I've been providing plenty of sources for shit I've been saying.

You asked me a question which didn't relate to you. So I answered the question which was directed in no way, towards you.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 09:23 PM Reply

Yeah whatevs. We seem to be relatively in agreement here.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 10:32 PM Reply

I just saw Korrikens post containing a hypothetical housebreaking situation from way back on the thread.

There was a piece in a national newspaper that I remember seeing and agreeing with completely.

Homeowners should be allowed to own a ranged tazer in case of such an event. Should a perp enter your house with intent to steal or cause harm to you or your family, you fire at them, incapacitating them, and then get help from either a non - jammed or still connected neighbour,

Makes sense to me
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 11:41 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 10:32 PM, Boltrig wrote: Homeowners should be allowed to own a ranged tazer in case of such an event. Should a perp enter your house with intent to steal or cause harm to you or your family, you fire at them, incapacitating them, and then get help from either a non - jammed or still connected neighbour,

Awesome! One shot! Better not miss...cause the perp sure as hell didn't bring only one bullet.

Who cares how well it works...its an alternative!


Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 11:42 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 10:32 PM, Boltrig wrote:
Homeowners should be allowed to own a ranged tazer in case of such an event. Should a perp enter your house with intent to steal or cause harm to you or your family, you fire at them, incapacitating them, and then get help from either a non - jammed or still connected neighbour,

I think i'd rather just shoot and kill them on the off chance they try to sue me in court.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 11:56 PM Reply

I personally prefer my .410 with a slug to any taser, taser has short range, 1 shot, bad accuracy, and if they wear protective clothing, it can be rendered harmless.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 24th, 2007 @ 11:59 PM Reply

At 4/24/07 11:41 PM, WolvenBear wrote:
At 4/24/07 10:32 PM, Boltrig wrote: Homeowners should be allowed to own a ranged tazer in case of such an event. Should a perp enter your house with intent to steal or cause harm to you or your family, you fire at them, incapacitating them, and then get help from either a non - jammed or still connected neighbour,
Awesome! One shot! Better not miss...cause the perp sure as hell didn't bring only one bullet.

Who cares how well it works...its an alternative!

Look, at least Im putting forward an alternative. Gun ownership doesnt cause such a stirring of emotion in the UK, so its an alternative to bringing back firearms.

By your logic, anythings better than being completely unarmed.

At 4/24/07 11:42 PM, Memorize wrote:
I think i'd rather just shoot and kill them on the off chance they try to sue me in court.

Still no luck here. Few years back a farmer with a legit shotgun licence shot and killed a teen that was breaking into his house with intent to rob him.

The guy did time.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) Apr. 25th, 2007 @ 12:08 AM Reply

At 4/24/07 11:59 PM, Boltrig wrote:
Still no luck here. Few years back a farmer with a legit shotgun licence shot and killed a teen that was breaking into his house with intent to rob him.

The guy did time.

And you support that because...?