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Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

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Proteas
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-22 21:08:57 Reply

At 4/22/07 12:02 PM, Elfer wrote: What we should have is a licensing program to prevent total nutjobs from buying guns, and then keep a tight watch on gun dealers to make sure they aren't selling guns illegally, since, as cell pointed out but doesn't seem to realize, legal gun dealers are the source of the majority of illegal gun sales.

Here's what bothers me about the whole "total nutjobs" argument...

People change. Someone who fails such a psych profile and is thereby banned from owning a firearm might one day become a perfectly sane paragon of virtue... and if they then want to purchase a firearm, then what? Are they banned for life from ever owning a firearm, or do they have to retest every so often? And conversely, someone who may pass said psych profile might have a psychological breakdown sometime down the road after they purchase said firearm.

Then we have to consider, who's going to be actually giving out these psychological tests? Yeah, we can regulate gunshops until the cows come home, but how are we going to regulate someone who deals in the fluididity of the human mind? Say someone passes a psychological exam with flying colors, gets his or her gun, and then goes out and shoots up a school or post office the next day. I wouldn't want to be that court appointed psychologist, would you?

And when someone DOES run out and massacres after passing said psych profile (it will happen folks, Murphy says so), what then? More beuracratic red tape? And all for what? To make it that much more difficult for law abiding citizens to excercise their consitutionally protected rights, just to prevent less than 1/1000th of 1% of the populace from POSSIBLY going on a rampage with a legally purchased firearm?

Here's the thing; Pro-Gun lobbyists like the NRA fight so hard for our second amendment rights as U.S. citizens because they are constitutionally guarenteed to us thanks to the ending clause contained therein. If we allow our government the right to chip away and eventually erradicate that explicitly guarenteed right, then what's stopping them from doing away with the rest of the amendments?

As a wise man once said,

"Those who sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither." -Benjamin Franklin


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Elfer
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-22 22:40:11 Reply

At 4/22/07 03:22 PM, Korriken wrote:
At 4/22/07 12:02 PM, Elfer wrote:
Slippery slope argument, you have to actually provide evidence that one will lead to the other. "Evidence" does not include wild speculation based on shaky logic.
one compromise and the enemy walks all over you. once the government gets a taste of the sweet nectar of snatching away rights, they will want more of it.

You didn't really read what I said, did you?

Simple registration would suffice, and make the dealers keep accurate inventory of what weapons he has in shop and what he has sold. and making the gun manufacturers submit documents showing what guns were sold to what dealers, to check against the dealers.

having the dealers call in the registration info, then the person on the other line punches in the buyer's info to see whether or not he can legally obtain the gun.

Ok, so here's the thing: We're not in disagreement here.

I make no claims as to the specific degree of regulation needed, I just think that there should be some regulation, as do you, apparently. No regulation at all and an all-out ban would both entail complete deregulation, which is a fairly bad thing.

At 4/22/07 09:08 PM, Proteas wrote: Here's what bothers me about the whole "total nutjobs" argument...

Sometimes people are crazy but like then later they're not crazy and also WHO'S WATCHING THE WATCHBUGS?

Again, I'm not saying I have the competence to make decisions on all of these issues, it should probably be decided more by people who work in the psychiatric field and in firearm sales/registration, etc.

I think we can both agree that people who are currently under psychiatric evaluation and have mad urge to kill all humans shouldn't be allowed to walk in and buy a gun, therefore some form of registration is a good idea.

As to where the line is drawn, I can't decide that.

And when someone snaps and shoots up a bunch of people anyway, I guess the best we can do is to accept it as an unfortunate consequence of living in reality.

If we could snap our fingers and get rid of all guns, sure, that would be great, but as it is, there's guns out there and there always will be. The answer to things like accidental gun deaths with kids isn't tighter controls on guns, it's education. I think we could save a lot of lives if there was say, one day every few years in public school dedicated to firearm safety.

packerman
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 08:05:16 Reply

WAHOO!


Well your reading the bottom of my post. Are you bored or what?
LETS PLAY SOME FOOTBALL!

JoS
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 11:57:29 Reply

Just a couple of technical details I want to address in here.

Low gun crime rates and low gun restrictions do not mean that low gun control leads to low crime rates. There are hundreds of other factors that play a role, population density, ethnic make-up of a region, urbanization, income levels, and a host of other factors. To compare Maine to DC is ridiculous. DC has a population density of 9000/sq mile, while Maine has a density of 41/sq mile and Texas is 71/sq mile. Plus you have to look at which came first, the chicken or the gg? What were crime rates like before the tougher gun restrictions as compared to after. To simply say low gun control states have less crime and therefore this is proof that gun control does not work is irresponsible.

Just because the 2nd Amendment says you can bear arms does not mean its written in stone. The government has passed Amendments to repeal amendments before (21st Amendment). All it takes is political will to do so.

Finally the comments made by Ted Nugent and others that making an area a gun free zone just invites a massacre is also false. How many hundreds or probaly even thousands of gun free zones are there. I am pretty sure ever public school, most colleges and many other places are gun free zones, and how often do they get shot up? Each year nearly all of these gun free zones pass without incident.


Bellum omnium contra omnes

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LazyDrunk
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 12:09:17 Reply

At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Finally the comments made by Ted Nugent and others that making an area a gun free zone just invites a massacre is also false.

If it's an opinion, how can it be false? I know of at least 14, off-hand, that actively boycott establishments (not school zones) that post the "Guns Banned on These Premises" signs. Not only do they withhold their business from these places, but they also leave their business card. It basically reads (give or take): "No Guns, No Business. I have a clean record, attended and taught over 150 gun safety seminars, father of three who exercises his 2nd Amendment right. How much do you know about your other customers?"

I'm not too savvy this morning, so maybe this'll help more.


We gladly feast upon those who would subdue us.

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JoS
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 13:12:09 Reply

At 4/23/07 12:09 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Finally the comments made by Ted Nugent and others that making an area a gun free zone just invites a massacre is also false.
I have a clean record, attended and taught over 150 gun safety seminars, father of three who exercises his 2nd Amendment right. How much do you know about your other customers?"

The problem becomes while you are probally not a problem how do they make special exemptions for one or two people. I have this problem at work (while its not the same its similar). I know some people are capable of doing certain things without getting hurt, but I still do not let them do it because then how do I justify it to someone else who says, but he is allowed to do it.


Bellum omnium contra omnes

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LazyDrunk
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 13:21:32 Reply

At 4/23/07 01:12 PM, JoS wrote:
At 4/23/07 12:09 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Finally the comments made by Ted Nugent and others that making an area a gun free zone just invites a massacre is also false.
I have a clean record, attended and taught over 150 gun safety seminars, father of three who exercises his 2nd Amendment right. How much do you know about your other customers?"
The problem becomes while you are probally not a problem how do they make special exemptions for one or two people.

I may not have conveyed that properly . . . or relied on the article too much. They talk with the manager or owner stating their position and why. The business owner then usually obliges and removes the sign, or reasserts his/her previous position banning guns from their private place of business. It's a dialogue, instead of just seeing the sign and turning around and shopping at Wal-Mart . .


We gladly feast upon those who would subdue us.

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LazyDrunk
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 13:24:08 Reply

Frequently Asked Questions
Where can I get a permit to carry a pistol?
What are the requirements for getting a permit to carry?
How long do I have to wait to get my permit?
How long is my permit valid?
How do I renew my permit?
Where can I get an application?
Where is my Minnesota permit valid?
What would prevent me from getting a permit to carry?
What is the cost for a permit to carry?
Where am I prohibited from carrying my pistol?
Do I need to have my permit with me when carrying my pistol?
What happens with my old permit?
Can I get an emergency permit to carry?
Can private establishments prohibit pistols on their premises?
Can I prohibit pistols in my private residence?
Can my landlord restrict me from carrying or possessing firearms on residence premises?
Can my employer prohibit carrying pistols in the work place?
Can I apply for a permit to carry if I am not a U.S. citizen but have permanent resident status in the United States?
Do I have to disclose to a peace officer that I am a permit holder and carrying a firearm?
Can active licensed officers carry in private establishments?
Are predatory offenders prohibited from obtaining a permit to carry?
What are the federal laws that govern retired officers carrying firearms?
If I am a permit holder from another state traveling in or visiting Minnesota and I do not have a permit to carry that is recognized by Minnesota, where can I legally store my firearm while in Minnesota?
If I am a resident of a state that does not have reciprocity with Minnesota but have permit to carry from a state that does, may I carry in Minnesota?
Can a non-resident mail in a permit to carry application or obtain a Minnesota permit to carry without physically being present?
After my five-year permit to carry expires, do I need to retake the approved firearms training class before I apply for a renewal permit?
Is there a public list of gun permit holders?
Can I obtain a list or call local law enforcement to find out individuals in my community who have a permit to carry?
Does the address on my permit to carry need to match the address on my driver's license?
Where can I find a list of approved firearm training classes?
If I am a non-resident, must I take an approved firearms training class in Minnesota in order to get a Minnesota permit to carry?
If I have a permit to carry a pistol do I have to conceal the pistol?
How can I legally transport a firearm from one place to another without obtaining a permit to carry?

FAQ for MN carry laws.


We gladly feast upon those who would subdue us.

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Leeloo-Minai
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 13:32:10 Reply

At 4/21/07 10:02 PM, Brick-top wrote: Look at what happens in threads created by you:
“Oh wait a minute what about…”

Every thread you post in becomes that. It's not him, it's you.

HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 15:07:23 Reply

At 4/23/07 12:09 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Finally the comments made by Ted Nugent and others that making an area a gun free zone just invites a massacre is also false.
If it's an opinion, how can it be false?

Because it is illogical and not factually supported. An opinion can be wrong in terms of factual "correctness."

I have a clean record, attended and taught over 150 gun safety seminars, father of three who exercises his 2nd Amendment right. How much do you know about your other customers?"

1. A business has a right to refuse service.
2. YOU might have a clean record, you might be a safe gun owner, but your "right" to own a gun shouldn't trample on my right to a safe life.

Leeloo-Minai
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 15:09:37 Reply

At 4/23/07 03:07 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:
At 4/23/07 12:09 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Finally the comments made by Ted Nugent and others that making an area a gun free zone just invites a massacre is also false.
If it's an opinion, how can it be false?
Because it is illogical and not factually supported. An opinion can be wrong in terms of factual "correctness."

The school shooting in VA invited a hell of a massacre. Guns were banned on those premises.


1. A business has a right to refuse service.

Yes, of course. I'm surprised you knew that. Did you find that out today?

2. YOU might have a clean record, you might be a safe gun owner, but your "right" to own a gun shouldn't trample on my right to a safe life.

What?

HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 15:17:29 Reply

At 4/23/07 03:09 PM, Leeloo-Minai wrote:
The school shooting in VA invited a hell of a massacre. Guns were banned on those premises.

That doesn't mean that if they weren't banned people would have and use them.

What?

If you have a gun, you are endangering me (and others). You can't do that.

Leeloo-Minai
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 15:19:39 Reply

At 4/23/07 03:17 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:
At 4/23/07 03:09 PM, Leeloo-Minai wrote:
The school shooting in VA invited a hell of a massacre. Guns were banned on those premises.
That doesn't mean that if they weren't banned people would have and use them.

No, you said his opinion wasn't supported. I just supported it for you.


What?
If you have a gun, you are endangering me (and others). You can't do that.

Under what law?

Leeloo-Minai
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 15:24:19 Reply

At 4/23/07 03:17 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: If you have a gun, you are endangering me (and others). You can't do that.

By the way, I'm a cop . . . and a supreme being.

You're welcome.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 15:25:34 Reply

1. By having made, say, Virginia Tech into a location where guns were permitted, you would neither prevent nor be able to stop such a disaster. When someone's shooting up a classroom, people are going to get killed. Preventing it by not letting people own guns is the most efficacious way.
2. Factual "law." "The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 16,137 murders in 2004 were committed with firearms." (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs////guns.htm)

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 15:47:02 Reply

At 4/23/07 03:25 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: 1. By having made, say, Virginia Tech into a location where guns were permitted, you would neither prevent nor be able to stop such a disaster. When someone's shooting up a classroom, people are going to get killed. Preventing it by not letting people own guns is the most efficacious way.

I never mentioned prevention. You said that bannign guns didn't invite a massacre . . . how many days after the college massacre that lasted how many hours?

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 17:13:22 Reply

...How many YEARS after guns were removed from schools?

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 17:26:40 Reply

At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Just a couple of technical details I want to address in here.

Low gun crime rates and low gun restrictions do not mean that low gun control leads to low crime rates.

No way dog look at my conclusive proof of how guns cause peace

[1] http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Searc h/Homicide/State/OneYearofData.cfm?NoVariable s=Y&CFID=440074&CFTOKEN=89922261
[2] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/health/i nteractives/guns/ownership.html

Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

JoS
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 17:37:25 Reply

At 4/23/07 05:26 PM, Elfer wrote:
At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Just a couple of technical details I want to address in here.

Low gun crime rates and low gun restrictions do not mean that low gun control leads to low crime rates.
No way dog look at my conclusive proof of how guns cause peace

I am assuming that was sarcasm?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 17:38:13 Reply

It sure looks like it, considering how his numbers seem to line up.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 18:00:48 Reply

At 4/23/07 05:37 PM, JoS wrote: I am assuming that was sarcasm?

Yes. I was mocking cellardoor's absurd definition of "proof"

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 18:03:01 Reply

At 4/23/07 05:13 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: ...How many YEARS after guns were removed from schools?

Actually, if you look at it, School shootings increased after the passing of the Brady Bill.

While correlations isn't evidence, it's an interesting comparison.


Between the idea And the reality
Between the motion And the act, Falls the Shadow
An argument in Logic

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 18:08:56 Reply

The Brady Bill was passed in 1994, IIRC. There were plenty of school shootings before that. And far too many after that. The Brady Bill is not the only restrictive law, though. It's a good one, and I'll go as far as to say that it's prevented many shootings, just as other restrictions have.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 18:20:44 Reply

At 4/23/07 06:03 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: While correlations isn't evidence, it's an interesting comparison.

Correlations are evidence to a certain extent, but this isn't a correlation. It's two points.

Memorize
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 19:01:54 Reply

It puts a smile on my face every time gun control advocates on this thread can only come up with "I think...".

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 19:37:04 Reply

At 4/23/07 07:01 PM, Memorize wrote: It puts a smile on my face every time gun control advocates on this thread can only come up with "I think...".

Well, people could lie and claim they know things for sure like the topic starter, but that doesn't make an argument more valid.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 20:12:23 Reply

At 4/23/07 03:17 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: If you have a gun, you are endangering me (and others). You can't do that.

Then by the logic you have presented, if a cop walked into your place of business with his sidearm on his hip, he would be endangering you simply because he has a gun. Or does the fact that he wears a badge and a uniform make up for that?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 22:30:26 Reply

Sure does. A private citizen and a cop are two different people (wow, that sounded dumb, but...). A cop has had background checks, training and is imbued with legal authority to protect the people. A private citizen who has a gun (in most states) has had very little background checking, and probably hasn't had to pass a course.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 23:32:16 Reply

At 4/23/07 10:30 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Sure does. A private citizen and a cop are two different people (wow, that sounded dumb, but...). A cop has had background checks, training and is imbued with legal authority to protect the people. A private citizen who has a gun (in most states) has had very little background checking, and probably hasn't had to pass a course.

the catch is, you can't rely on cops to protect you in all instances, sometimes you simply have to protect yourself, especially if you don't live next to the police station. last time I had to call the cops it took them 20 minutes to arrive, and I live 6 miles away from the police station. what can you do in 20 minutes? let's see.. you could

Rape them
knock them out and put them in your car and leave
kill them
beat them senseless
rob them
mutilate them
set their house on fire

eh, that about covers the simple stuff.

without a valid means to defend yourself you can

hide like a scared animal until cops arrive and hope they don't find you.
try to run.
try to fight back with your bare fists or whatever is nearby, (effective with enough training, otherwise, no)

If you had a knife, sword, club, any melee weapon you could
surprise them and beat them senseless/cut them up/ kill them.
perhaps chase them off.

but if you have a GUN you could
force them to the ground and hold them at gunpoint until the cops arrive
scare them off.
injure or kill the person if they insist on attacking.

you can't always rely on others to come rushing to your side when you're in trouble, especially if someone else is attacking you. you probably wouldn't have time to dial the cops and hold out against them until they arrive.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 00:24:18 Reply

At 4/23/07 07:37 PM, Elfer wrote:
Well, people could lie and claim they know things for sure like the topic starter, but that doesn't make an argument more valid.

And then, people like you could just claim otherwise without presenting a single counter-point.