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Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

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Elfer
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-22 22:40:11 Reply

At 4/22/07 03:22 PM, Korriken wrote:
At 4/22/07 12:02 PM, Elfer wrote:
Slippery slope argument, you have to actually provide evidence that one will lead to the other. "Evidence" does not include wild speculation based on shaky logic.
one compromise and the enemy walks all over you. once the government gets a taste of the sweet nectar of snatching away rights, they will want more of it.

You didn't really read what I said, did you?

Simple registration would suffice, and make the dealers keep accurate inventory of what weapons he has in shop and what he has sold. and making the gun manufacturers submit documents showing what guns were sold to what dealers, to check against the dealers.

having the dealers call in the registration info, then the person on the other line punches in the buyer's info to see whether or not he can legally obtain the gun.

Ok, so here's the thing: We're not in disagreement here.

I make no claims as to the specific degree of regulation needed, I just think that there should be some regulation, as do you, apparently. No regulation at all and an all-out ban would both entail complete deregulation, which is a fairly bad thing.

At 4/22/07 09:08 PM, Proteas wrote: Here's what bothers me about the whole "total nutjobs" argument...

Sometimes people are crazy but like then later they're not crazy and also WHO'S WATCHING THE WATCHBUGS?

Again, I'm not saying I have the competence to make decisions on all of these issues, it should probably be decided more by people who work in the psychiatric field and in firearm sales/registration, etc.

I think we can both agree that people who are currently under psychiatric evaluation and have mad urge to kill all humans shouldn't be allowed to walk in and buy a gun, therefore some form of registration is a good idea.

As to where the line is drawn, I can't decide that.

And when someone snaps and shoots up a bunch of people anyway, I guess the best we can do is to accept it as an unfortunate consequence of living in reality.

If we could snap our fingers and get rid of all guns, sure, that would be great, but as it is, there's guns out there and there always will be. The answer to things like accidental gun deaths with kids isn't tighter controls on guns, it's education. I think we could save a lot of lives if there was say, one day every few years in public school dedicated to firearm safety.

packerman
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 08:05:16 Reply

WAHOO!


Well your reading the bottom of my post. Are you bored or what?
LETS PLAY SOME FOOTBALL!

JoS
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 11:57:29 Reply

Just a couple of technical details I want to address in here.

Low gun crime rates and low gun restrictions do not mean that low gun control leads to low crime rates. There are hundreds of other factors that play a role, population density, ethnic make-up of a region, urbanization, income levels, and a host of other factors. To compare Maine to DC is ridiculous. DC has a population density of 9000/sq mile, while Maine has a density of 41/sq mile and Texas is 71/sq mile. Plus you have to look at which came first, the chicken or the gg? What were crime rates like before the tougher gun restrictions as compared to after. To simply say low gun control states have less crime and therefore this is proof that gun control does not work is irresponsible.

Just because the 2nd Amendment says you can bear arms does not mean its written in stone. The government has passed Amendments to repeal amendments before (21st Amendment). All it takes is political will to do so.

Finally the comments made by Ted Nugent and others that making an area a gun free zone just invites a massacre is also false. How many hundreds or probaly even thousands of gun free zones are there. I am pretty sure ever public school, most colleges and many other places are gun free zones, and how often do they get shot up? Each year nearly all of these gun free zones pass without incident.


Bellum omnium contra omnes

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JoS
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 13:12:09 Reply

At 4/23/07 12:09 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Finally the comments made by Ted Nugent and others that making an area a gun free zone just invites a massacre is also false.
I have a clean record, attended and taught over 150 gun safety seminars, father of three who exercises his 2nd Amendment right. How much do you know about your other customers?"

The problem becomes while you are probally not a problem how do they make special exemptions for one or two people. I have this problem at work (while its not the same its similar). I know some people are capable of doing certain things without getting hurt, but I still do not let them do it because then how do I justify it to someone else who says, but he is allowed to do it.


Bellum omnium contra omnes

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HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 15:07:23 Reply

At 4/23/07 12:09 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Finally the comments made by Ted Nugent and others that making an area a gun free zone just invites a massacre is also false.
If it's an opinion, how can it be false?

Because it is illogical and not factually supported. An opinion can be wrong in terms of factual "correctness."

I have a clean record, attended and taught over 150 gun safety seminars, father of three who exercises his 2nd Amendment right. How much do you know about your other customers?"

1. A business has a right to refuse service.
2. YOU might have a clean record, you might be a safe gun owner, but your "right" to own a gun shouldn't trample on my right to a safe life.

HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 15:17:29 Reply

At 4/23/07 03:09 PM, Leeloo-Minai wrote:
The school shooting in VA invited a hell of a massacre. Guns were banned on those premises.

That doesn't mean that if they weren't banned people would have and use them.

What?

If you have a gun, you are endangering me (and others). You can't do that.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 15:25:34 Reply

1. By having made, say, Virginia Tech into a location where guns were permitted, you would neither prevent nor be able to stop such a disaster. When someone's shooting up a classroom, people are going to get killed. Preventing it by not letting people own guns is the most efficacious way.
2. Factual "law." "The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 16,137 murders in 2004 were committed with firearms." (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs////guns.htm)

HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 17:13:22 Reply

...How many YEARS after guns were removed from schools?

Elfer
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 17:26:40 Reply

At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Just a couple of technical details I want to address in here.

Low gun crime rates and low gun restrictions do not mean that low gun control leads to low crime rates.

No way dog look at my conclusive proof of how guns cause peace

[1] http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Searc h/Homicide/State/OneYearofData.cfm?NoVariable s=Y&CFID=440074&CFTOKEN=89922261
[2] http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/health/i nteractives/guns/ownership.html

Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

JoS
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 17:37:25 Reply

At 4/23/07 05:26 PM, Elfer wrote:
At 4/23/07 11:57 AM, JoS wrote: Just a couple of technical details I want to address in here.

Low gun crime rates and low gun restrictions do not mean that low gun control leads to low crime rates.
No way dog look at my conclusive proof of how guns cause peace

I am assuming that was sarcasm?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 17:38:13 Reply

It sure looks like it, considering how his numbers seem to line up.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 18:00:48 Reply

At 4/23/07 05:37 PM, JoS wrote: I am assuming that was sarcasm?

Yes. I was mocking cellardoor's absurd definition of "proof"

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 18:03:01 Reply

At 4/23/07 05:13 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: ...How many YEARS after guns were removed from schools?

Actually, if you look at it, School shootings increased after the passing of the Brady Bill.

While correlations isn't evidence, it's an interesting comparison.


Between the idea And the reality
Between the motion And the act, Falls the Shadow
An argument in Logic

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 18:08:56 Reply

The Brady Bill was passed in 1994, IIRC. There were plenty of school shootings before that. And far too many after that. The Brady Bill is not the only restrictive law, though. It's a good one, and I'll go as far as to say that it's prevented many shootings, just as other restrictions have.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 18:20:44 Reply

At 4/23/07 06:03 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: While correlations isn't evidence, it's an interesting comparison.

Correlations are evidence to a certain extent, but this isn't a correlation. It's two points.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 19:01:54 Reply

It puts a smile on my face every time gun control advocates on this thread can only come up with "I think...".

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 19:37:04 Reply

At 4/23/07 07:01 PM, Memorize wrote: It puts a smile on my face every time gun control advocates on this thread can only come up with "I think...".

Well, people could lie and claim they know things for sure like the topic starter, but that doesn't make an argument more valid.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 20:12:23 Reply

At 4/23/07 03:17 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: If you have a gun, you are endangering me (and others). You can't do that.

Then by the logic you have presented, if a cop walked into your place of business with his sidearm on his hip, he would be endangering you simply because he has a gun. Or does the fact that he wears a badge and a uniform make up for that?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 22:30:26 Reply

Sure does. A private citizen and a cop are two different people (wow, that sounded dumb, but...). A cop has had background checks, training and is imbued with legal authority to protect the people. A private citizen who has a gun (in most states) has had very little background checking, and probably hasn't had to pass a course.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-23 23:32:16 Reply

At 4/23/07 10:30 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Sure does. A private citizen and a cop are two different people (wow, that sounded dumb, but...). A cop has had background checks, training and is imbued with legal authority to protect the people. A private citizen who has a gun (in most states) has had very little background checking, and probably hasn't had to pass a course.

the catch is, you can't rely on cops to protect you in all instances, sometimes you simply have to protect yourself, especially if you don't live next to the police station. last time I had to call the cops it took them 20 minutes to arrive, and I live 6 miles away from the police station. what can you do in 20 minutes? let's see.. you could

Rape them
knock them out and put them in your car and leave
kill them
beat them senseless
rob them
mutilate them
set their house on fire

eh, that about covers the simple stuff.

without a valid means to defend yourself you can

hide like a scared animal until cops arrive and hope they don't find you.
try to run.
try to fight back with your bare fists or whatever is nearby, (effective with enough training, otherwise, no)

If you had a knife, sword, club, any melee weapon you could
surprise them and beat them senseless/cut them up/ kill them.
perhaps chase them off.

but if you have a GUN you could
force them to the ground and hold them at gunpoint until the cops arrive
scare them off.
injure or kill the person if they insist on attacking.

you can't always rely on others to come rushing to your side when you're in trouble, especially if someone else is attacking you. you probably wouldn't have time to dial the cops and hold out against them until they arrive.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 00:24:18 Reply

At 4/23/07 07:37 PM, Elfer wrote:
Well, people could lie and claim they know things for sure like the topic starter, but that doesn't make an argument more valid.

And then, people like you could just claim otherwise without presenting a single counter-point.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 00:45:14 Reply

At 4/24/07 12:24 AM, Memorize wrote:
At 4/23/07 07:37 PM, Elfer wrote:
Well, people could lie and claim they know things for sure like the topic starter, but that doesn't make an argument more valid.
And then, people like you could just claim otherwise without presenting a single counter-point.

Well, I did provide some statistical analysis at the top of the page showing that there was no correlation between gun ownership and homicide like the topic starter claimed there was.

Of course, you wouldn't even know anything I've said in this thread, seeing as how you never read posts that people make.

But of course, there's always people like you, people who actually don't provide any points or evidence in a topic, instead choosing to state their opinion and call everyone else stupid.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 00:48:21 Reply

At 4/24/07 12:45 AM, Elfer wrote:
Well, I did provide some statistical analysis at the top of the page showing that there was no correlation between gun ownership and homicide like the topic starter claimed there was.

Goodie.

Now tell me, why would we then waste billions enforcing gun laws when your "statistical analysis" says there will be no difference?

Of course, you wouldn't even know anything I've said in this thread, seeing as how you never read posts that people make.

Unfounded statement.

But of course, there's always people like you, people who actually don't provide any points or evidence in a topic, instead choosing to state their opinion and call everyone else stupid.

I will only when others provide a source as well. If they don't, why should I?

C'mon, I know you might not be intelligent enough to get it, but I think you just might be smart enough to answer that question.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 01:14:35 Reply

At 4/23/07 03:25 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:
2. Factual "law." "The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 16,137 murders in 2004 were committed with firearms." (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs////guns.htm)

And by restricting legal firearm ownership, that will lower murder how?

Once again, most gun crimes are committed by people who do not legally own their firearms. Furthermore, only a small fraction of guns purchased legally end up on the illegal market, and therefore are unlikely to be used in crime.

So tell me, what would restricting LEGAL ownership do? Where the hell is their any logic in support of gun control?

Don't say "it will lower crime at least a little bit" because a small fraction of legal gun owners end up committing crime. Because conversely, less crimes would get PREVENTED by armed citizens considering that defensive uses of firearms take place between 800,000 and 2.5 million times a year.

Where is the logic for gun control again? Because the very reason people support gun control becomes a bigger problem if/when gun control becomes implemented.


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 04:16:12 Reply

At 4/24/07 12:24 AM, Memorize wrote: And then, people like you could just claim otherwise without presenting a single counter-point.

Apparantly, the topic presented no significant argument against gun control, as I've stated 7 pages ago:

At 4/19/07 01:05 AM, AzureFenrir wrote: In this entire post you have ended up proving that banning handguns seems to have correlations with higher crime rates, a fact extrapolated from one incident. That's hardly enough to make a comment on all forms of gun control, since there are inadequate amounts of data to truly show that regulations tend towards the negative.

I'm still waiting for a response. Until you successfully counter that post, cellardoor's topic proves absolutely nothing against gun control, either.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 04:40:24 Reply

At 4/24/07 04:16 AM, AzureFenrir wrote:
At 4/24/07 12:24 AM, Memorize wrote: And then, people like you could just claim otherwise without presenting a single counter-point.
Apparantly, the topic presented no significant argument against gun control, as I've stated 7 pages ago:

Actually I gave more proof against gun control than I've EVER seen for gun control. I'm still waiting patiently for some real facts instead of "omg like cellardoor is not right, he hasn't proven anything therefore more gun control is needed"

At 4/19/07 01:05 AM, AzureFenrir wrote: In this entire post you have ended up proving that banning handguns seems to have correlations with higher crime rates, a fact extrapolated from one incident. That's hardly enough to make a comment on all forms of gun control, since there are inadequate amounts of data to truly show that regulations tend towards the negative.
I'm still waiting for a response. Until you successfully counter that post, cellardoor's topic proves absolutely nothing against gun control, either.

See how fallible your argument is?

You're pretending that gun control is effective as a given fact, a foundation of your entire argument. You base the validity of YOUR view that greater gun control would work, by ignoring the facts and pretending it doesn't prove that gun control doesn't work, yet it does. Read the entire thread and read ALL of my links.

Then actually give an argument instead of basically saying "I am already right because you haven't proven anything in my eyes, yet I provide no facts to the contrary, but I don't have to because I'm already right"


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 05:57:14 Reply

At 4/24/07 04:40 AM, cellardoor6 wrote: See how fallible your argument is?

You're pretending that gun control is effective as a given fact, a foundation of your entire argument. You base the validity of YOUR view that greater gun control would work, by ignoring the facts and pretending it doesn't prove that gun control doesn't work, yet it does. Read the entire thread and read ALL of my links.

Then actually give an argument instead of basically saying "I am already right because you haven't proven anything in my eyes, yet I provide no facts to the contrary, but I don't have to because I'm already right"

And there lies your problem with understanding my post. You ASSUMED that my argument is to support gun control, while my ACTUAL argument, as I've clearly stated in the post, is that your proof is INSIGNIFICANT. See the difference between the two arguments? I never even said I was right. I only said that you, being the topic creator, were wrong.

Now, I don't claim to be able to prove that gun control is a good thing. The whole argument is based on people's opinions, since I have seen neither side offer solid support for their case. However, since you made the topic claiming that you have proof that gun control doesn't work, I'm simply proving you wrong, as you, being the advocate of an opinion, has the burden of proof. I'm not proving anything, just equalizing the two sides.

And no, don't flatter yourself. Your proof consisted of an argument based entirely on card-stacking and an argument that only correlates to the most extreme case (gun ban) and not to th less extreme one (gun regulation and control). Yes, I did read the rest of your posts, all of which either referenced your "proof" in your first post, disproven other posts, or offered speculative arguments, which both sides can equally make. None of them added any more data or even correlative support to your position.

If you want to argue speculatively though, I can do that as well. Just don't claim that you have more "proof" than the other side.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 06:09:52 Reply

At 4/24/07 05:57 AM, AzureFenrir wrote: And there lies your problem with understanding my post. You ASSUMED that my argument is to support gun control, while my ACTUAL argument, as I've clearly stated in the post, is that your proof is INSIGNIFICANT. See the difference between the two arguments? I never even said I was right. I only said that you, being the topic creator, were wrong.

There has yet to be a mass murder stopped by police. There are hundreds stopped by ordinary citizens brandishing guns. That is more proof than anyone demanding gun control every presented.


Now, I don't claim to be able to prove that gun control is a good thing. The whole argument is based on people's opinions, since I have seen neither side offer solid support for their case. However, since you made the topic claiming that you have proof that gun control doesn't work, I'm simply proving you wrong, as you, being the advocate of an opinion, has the burden of proof. I'm not proving anything, just equalizing the two sides.

Hmmm. That's a hard one. Virgina Tech was teh paragon of gun control, yet 32 people died and more were injured. Hmmmmmm.......

If you want to argue speculatively though, I can do that as well. Just don't claim that you have more "proof" than the other side.

Well, considering the gun control side can offer nothing to their credit and the pro gun side can offer mounds of evidence. I'll go with the pro-gun side.

But maybe that's just cause where I used to live, people wanted to kill me, and were terrified because I was better with a knife then anyone in the neighborhood was with a gun. And that's why whenever they robbed my house, they stole weapons first.


Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 06:33:01 Reply

At 4/24/07 06:09 AM, WolvenBear wrote: There has yet to be a mass murder stopped by police. There are hundreds stopped by ordinary citizens brandishing guns. That is more proof than anyone demanding gun control every presented.

There are also tons of mass murders committed by people with guns, and tons of mass murders committed by people with weapons such as autos and baseball bats. There are also hundreds stopped by ordinary citizens brandishing baseball bats or heavy objects as well as hundreds of murders stopped by ordinary citizens with guns. Card-stacking isn't a valid argument in support of gun control.

Besides, gun control does not equal gun ban. Even if that argument isn't card-stacked, it only offers evidence against gun ban.

Hmmm. That's a hard one. Virgina Tech was teh paragon of gun control, yet 32 people died and more were injured. Hmmmmmm.......

Er...you aren't serious, right? Virginia Tech was located in a state with extremely lax gun laws, and the killer even used a legally obtained gun to commit the massacre. I see almost no reason how that event is any evidence against gun control.

Well, considering the gun control side can offer nothing to their credit and the pro gun side can offer mounds of evidence. I'll go with the pro-gun side.

I would like to see this "mounds of evidence," since none of the gun proponents that I encountered had offered anything close to actual evidence yet.

But maybe that's just cause where I used to live, people wanted to kill me, and were terrified because I was better with a knife then anyone in the neighborhood was with a gun. And that's why whenever they robbed my house, they stole weapons first.

OK, that's nice to know.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-24 06:37:03 Reply

At 4/23/07 10:30 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Sure does. A private citizen and a cop are two different people (wow, that sounded dumb, but...). A cop has had background checks, training and is imbued with legal authority to protect the people. A private citizen who has a gun (in most states) has had very little background checking, and probably hasn't had to pass a course.

A private citizen who has a gun has to meet the same qualifications to purchase a gun as a police officer. The issue with background checks is how to address mental illness. Currently this side of the law has some issues that need to be sorted out as:

A. Who has the authority to decide on who is not mentally fit to own a firearm--a Judge who committs a person sight unseen or after a medical doctor has submitted an opinion after intensive therapy/diagnosis.

B. Making this part of the background check in a way that does not interfere with the HIPPA Act.

As for training you do not need intensive training to own a gun. In most cases the person who is predisposed to buy a firearm has grown up with them and have known how to shoot them since they were little. Furthermore, most people who have no prior experience with a firearm usually seek out training because of nervousness and anxiety.

As for CC holders, most states require some sort of training before they may receive their permits.

Also did you know that a cop is not required to intervene on your behalf if they feel that their life or well-being are put at undo risk?


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