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Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

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TheMason
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-19 22:14:41 Reply

At 4/19/07 09:33 PM, NYiz4Dorks wrote: You work for NRA or something? Gun control does work. I don't know what the problem is from restricting crazy people from not being allowed to buy a gun over the counter and so easily. As is the case from the VA tech shooter, he was deemed unsafe to himself and others by profesionaly doctors. Running a check for a gun purchase doesn't seem unreasonable. I don't know why gunlovers think it's such a big deal.

I don't think that this is something that Cellar or I are arguing. Our point is that gun banning does not work. However, I (and I believe Cellar agrees with me) think that background checks to verify laws that are already on the books are perfectly fine.

However, you have to realize that the reality of the situation is gun control no matter how strict (up to a firearms ban) or liberal would have prevented Cho from commiting Tuesday's horrible attack. The simple truth is a person like that is determined enough to find a way to either procure a gun illegally or use something such as explosives or even chemical or biological attack...


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Korriken
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-19 22:20:08 Reply

I'm amazed that no one has ever used a Coke Bottle Cluster Bomb yet. they're easy to make and extremely lethal as they spray pellets in every direction. Perhaps their lethality is what has prevented its use, because if you don't find cover, you will be sprayed with pellets as well.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

cellardoor6
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-19 22:25:27 Reply

At 4/19/07 09:52 PM, Boltrig wrote:
At 4/19/07 09:31 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:
Where is your logic? Your overall amount of gun violence has gun up since the handgun ban, more than twice as many crimes involving handguns take place in the UK than before the ban.
Yuh huh, and how many people using guns in crimes had licences for the guns I wonder?

Not many considering the UK banned LEGALLY purchasing handguns across the board. So I wonder how many of those crimes in the UK over all were committed by law-abiding citizens? Probably not many. Thus making targeting legal purchase of handguns ridiculous.

Why the hell does it matter of massacres of larger scale don't take place anymore if more people still die over all?
Criminals have guns in America too. Rising gun crime is due to (wait for it) criminals! You think regular people having guns will solve that?

You think taking guns away from regular people will solve it? Obviously it didn't, it made it worse.

The idea is, when law-abiding, responsible citizens are disarmed, criminals are emboldened because they can prey upon a disarmed citizen population. This makes crime go up.

That's a vastly more reasonable conclusion than your idea that taking away guns from law-abiding citizens will stop criminals from using guns illegally.

You're allowing your emotional response to a single incident cloud your judgment. Yeah Dunblane was bad, and a similar situation hasn't happened since, but the over all gun crime went up exponentially and is still doing so. The handgun ban DID NOT work. The fact that a similar shooting to Dunblane hasn't taken place has nothing to do with the handgun ban, how could it? Especially all while gun violence in the UK over all is going up continually?
It has everything to do with it. Thomas Hamilton had a firearms licence. His gun was legal. If guns are illegal, then you can be certain that only criminals have guns, rather than be suspicious of everyone who has one.

That is the DUMBEST thing I've ever heard. All that does is make it so that the only people with guns are criminals... meaning good Samaritans and people who want to defend themselves won't have the means to do so against armed criminals, yet the criminals will have free reign.

If you are adamantly in favour of having a gun, even for "defence" then it proves you have the mind set of someone willing to kill. Thats not a healthy state of mind.

Everyone has the right to self defense. It's not "to kill" it's to "protect" if there was a non-lethal self defense mechanism that was as effective as a gun I would be all for it.

Wanting to protect yourself and your loved ones from criminals armed with firearms, by OWNING and using a firearm responsibly.. YEAH that's not a healthy state of mind compared taking guns away from LAW ABIDING CITIZENS and thus making gun crime worse right?


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

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JoS
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-19 22:50:09 Reply

At 4/19/07 08:58 PM, TheMason wrote: I believe that Cellar and I would both agree that gun regulation is necessary, but gun banning is bad...M'Kay? And this tragedy provides an opportunity to analyze this issue.

I actually have explicitly stated in this thread I do not advocate banning guns. Where you got this idea I do nto know. I said we should make it more difficult to get them. When a man who has been committed to a mental health facility can get a gun in less than an hour LEGALLY there needs to be changes. This is why I advocate licensing gun owners/users.

The paragraph you quoted was in response to someone saying that if they want a gun they will just buy it illegally anyways so there is no point in trying to make it more difficult.


First: This guy was demented to the point that he wanted to die to get the attention he could not get while he was alive. Nothing would have stopped him from getting a gun.

Again does not mean we shoudl make it easy for him. People seem to think that buying a gun on the black market is like going to Wal-mart. there is no sign saying illegal guns this way. It is do-able but it is nto easy, certainly not as easy as buying legally in Virginia. Alot of black market handguns in the US come from Virginia.

Secondly: This shows the weakness of the gun banning philosophy. This man had no respect for the laws and rules that prohibited him from having firearms on school property. However, any law abiding "gun nuts" who had concealed carry permits (I do not know if there were any or not...but lets assume for argument's sake) did have respect for the rules and left their firearms at home. A madman who was not all that well armed was able to capture and slaughter an unarmed populace.

Should we also allow people to bring guns into highschools to shoot the next Eric and Dylan?

We agree on almost all the same points, except maybe the point of allowing them into schools and shit.

How often are their shootings on Universities campuses? Now how many schools are there in the Country? The odds are probally you are more likely to be hit by lightning or win the lottery than get killed by a school shooter. So what are the chances that if you do carry a gun to school that it will ever be required. I think its an invite for disaster.


Bellum omnium contra omnes

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Korriken
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-19 23:09:33 Reply

At 4/19/07 09:52 PM, Boltrig wrote:
At 4/19/07 09:31 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:
Yuh huh, and how many people using guns in crimes had licences for the guns I wonder?

How many people using guns in crime will give up their gun if they get banned? you can probably count the number on the hands of this guy.


Why the hell does it matter of massacres of larger scale don't take place anymore if more people still die over all?
Criminals have guns in America too. Rising gun crime is due to (wait for it) criminals! You think regular people having guns will solve that?

simple self defense is a deterrent, especially if the criminals know that they could get killed if they break into someone's home or attack someone. if you take away people's guns then the criminals with guns have little to fear, and as long as they get away before any cops show up they're relatively safe from retaliation. However, if the person is armed with his own gun, he can injure or even kill the attacker, preventing his own demise as well as the demise of family members.

It has everything to do with it. Thomas Hamilton had a firearms licence. His gun was legal. If guns are illegal, then you can be certain that only criminals have guns, rather than be suspicious of everyone who has one.

If you have something that no one can defend against, it emboldens you to use it, especially if you have no qualms in harming or killing to get what you want.


If you are adamantly in favour of having a gun, even for "defence" then it proves you have the mind set of someone willing to kill. Thats not a healthy state of mind.

To say, "I don't need to defend myself" is Naive and foolish. You can't always rely on someone else (the cops) to assist you in a bad situation. Defending yourself is not a bad thing. you're so adamantly against legal gun ownership, that you remove any and all pros to the situation out of your mind and meditate on the cons. Not allowing people that are diagnosed with mental problems access to guns. that is fair. but to say the average Joe who just wants to make sure his family and home are safe will have to settle for taking on a gun toting criminal with his bare hands? bullshit. if someone breaks into my house, I'll be damned sure to use my gun on them. (but what if its a family member?) well, I keep my door locked at night with a bolt that cannot be opened from the outside, so if they get in, they had to use considerable force to get the door opened, and how many people do you know that will force your door open in the middle of the night just to say "Hi!"?

consider this hypothetical but very possible situation. you are asleep one night when you hear a window break. you go to phone the police but the line is dead; the criminal cut the phone line at the box. your phone is now useless and you cannot dial for help. you try to dial your cell phone only to find out that you have no signal, something is jamming your signal and you cannot call out on your cell phone. you have no weapons in your house, as you do not believe in having a weapon. Help will not come because you cannot call for help. you hear a scram from another room; it's one of your children screaming for help! you rush to your child's side, but the criminal, not wanting to be identified, turns to you and fires 1 round into your chest with a supressed .22 pistol. you fall backwards, unable to breathe because the bullet has punctured your lung. the criminal walks past you into your child's bedroom and opens fire shooting him/her in the head, killing your child. blood fills your lung and searing pain runs across your chest. you look up to see that the criminal has noted that you still live and fires one last shot into your head, killing you. the criminal then walks into your bedroom, kills your wife, plunders anything of value and walks out. The next day your neighbor sees a broken window, and comes over to let you know about it to find your entire family dead.

all because you lacked the means to fight back. a pity. had you had a gun you could have took the initiative and taken out the criminal before he could endanger your family. the criminals all have guns, why should you not be on the same level they are? why should you settle for an inferior means to fight back? if you don't arm yourself, then you're no better off than a feudal peasent at the mercy of the soldiers.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-19 23:13:10 Reply

-hugs cellardoor6-

Finally somoene who sees Gun laws my way! If someone is going to commit murder (which is a CRIME) then why not break yet ANOTHER law and get a gun?! Sure gun laws make it harder for people to get guns, but law abiding citizens won't have them... who will?

Why, CRIMINALS of course!!!

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'Keeping it slightly real'

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 00:03:26 Reply

At 4/19/07 11:16 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: And for you people too stupid to understand exactly who Cho was, he sent you a package in the mail, with the wrong zipcode, between shotting people dead.

You are the type of people he wanted to reach, and he has.

Personally, It makes me wonder how a shooting could have taken place at a university, the shooter walks off of campus, comes back 2 hours and does it again. Why was the school not shut down? Why was the student body not made aware of the shooting? why was security not stepped up? Why was that place not CRAWLING with policemen looking for the killer?


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Korriken
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 00:05:59 Reply

ahh jeez, I did it again, for some reason I thought I was in the VA shooting thread. Sorry about that. Carry on with the gun debate. (ignore the previous post)


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JoS
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 01:41:04 Reply

we msut not forget nto everyone killed by guns is killed by gangs or in large shooting sprees. Often crimes of passion are a result of firearms in clos eproximity. Also children playing with improperly stored firearms is another ocncern. While having gun laws won't prevent people from killing eachother, it can certainly help in reducing the number.

And so that no one goes on a big rant here about me and my gun hating views, I am nto calling for a gun ban, but I am calling for some restructuring of the current system because it clealry is not working.


Bellum omnium contra omnes

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JoS
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 02:12:30 Reply

At 4/20/07 02:02 AM, LazyDrunk wrote: Which part?
I always see the blame finger, not from you, but it's always pointing in a general direction over the horizon that never quite makes it where it's owner intends.

This is why I support the licensing idea. You go through the background check to get your license originally. If something happens that woudl cause you to not be able to buy a weapon (criminal or mental health) you license is revoked, just like a drivers license. You have to take a basic test that deals with the safe operation, handling and storing of a firearm as well as the laws surrounding guns, just like you do for a drivers license.

When you go to the store to buy a gun you show your gun license and some other ID, they check to see if you hold a valid license and then you can get your gun.

Who dropped the ball in this case though, I can not say for certain untill all the facts surroudning this case are known, but according to an interview with the gun store owner, the ball was dropped by the FBI as that is who all firearms checks go through and they did not flag him because of his mental health. Whether the other authorities forgot to report it properly or something remains to be seen, but there was failure somewhere along the line.


Bellum omnium contra omnes

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cellardoor6
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 03:24:53 Reply

Lazydrunk... Grammer...

You know, I appreciate a good flamewar but at least try and discuss something involving the topic. You two have occupied more of the thread with your entirely unrelated back and forth bickering, so change your tune and actually argue about gun control... or you can just GTFO.


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

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Korriken
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 09:56:21 Reply

At 4/20/07 02:12 AM, JoS wrote:
This is why I support the licensing idea. You go through the background check to get your license originally. If something happens that woudl cause you to not be able to buy a weapon (criminal or mental health) you license is revoked, just like a drivers license. You have to take a basic test that deals with the safe operation, handling and storing of a firearm as well as the laws surrounding guns, just like you do for a drivers license.

It's a fair idea the way you put it, but over time politicians would see to make the test harder and harder, then include a shooting accuracy test where they slowly keep making it harder and harder to pass, like shooting the target at 50 yards with a snub nose .38, I've tried it, and a snub nose has about 5% accuracy at that range.. unless you have some kind of extensive training with one... even then its not gonna be worth a shit.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

CaptainQuartz
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 17:42:34 Reply

At 4/19/07 10:25 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:
At 4/19/07 09:52 PM, Boltrig wrote:
At 4/19/07 09:31 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:
You think taking guns away from regular people will solve it? Obviously it didn't, it made it worse.

The idea is, when law-abiding, responsible citizens are disarmed, criminals are emboldened because they can prey upon a disarmed citizen population. This makes crime go up.

That's a vastly more reasonable conclusion than your idea that taking away guns from law-abiding citizens will stop criminals from using guns illegally.

This is something of a mass truth right here, as of two years ago, I had someone in my house who was attempting to steal shit....thankfully for me, My grandmother has a gun in the house, easily to access incase of this situation..He heard me with the gun, and I fired a warning shot at him. Then he ran, and he dropped everything he attempted to steal.sa

As for the "Gun Control" stuff, yeah, it's totally all gun control fault..

Sarcasm..

Yeah, he was picked on and thrown around and alone, that doesn't contribute to anything?
Remember, Parents are ALWAYS good and cheerful..
And the fact he was from Korea! More than likely seeped in Anti-American and Communist morals..So, yes, it's all gun controls fault..

Idiots..
morefngdbs
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 19:18:34 Reply

I believe hand guns should be banned.
They are good only for killing people.
They are easily hidden, so they are /or can be carried without anyone realising it.
You have the right to own a gun, why does it have to be a handgun.
Buy a rifle or a shot gun, great for hunting and for shooting practice & your ready to stop the invading armies you all seem to fear there so much.

I will never be able to understand the mentality of Americans, you have a major terrorist attack that kills over 3000 people at the World Trade & Convention Centre.
The Nation mourns & rightly so.
You change your judicial system, on how terrorists are treated, you create a new enforcement branch called the Homeland Security & you give them broad & sweeping legal power.
All that for the death of 3000 plus American's.

Last year over 11,000 Americans were murdered by handguns.
As many or more the year befor that, & the year befor that etc.

11,000 dead and you do nothing, but try and mask that the problem is handguns.
That is what is wrong ladies & gents.
P.S. I own 2 rifles & a shot gun my grandfather taught me to hunt & shoot, I believe that owning a gun is a priviledge not a right.

I am saddened by the terrible crime committed in Virginia, it just all seems so senseless to me.


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uhnoesanoob
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 19:45:43 Reply

At 4/20/07 07:18 PM, morefngdbs wrote: I believe hand guns should be banned.
They are good only for killing people.

And for defending your self against someone who wants to kill you.

I will never be able to understand the mentality of Americans, you have a major terrorist attack that kills over 3000 people at the World Trade & Convention Centre.

A terrorist attack not having anything to do with guns.

You change your judicial system, on how terrorists are treated, you create a new enforcement branch called the Homeland Security & you give them broad & sweeping legal power.
All that for the death of 3000 plus American's.

Last year over 11,000 Americans were murdered by handguns.
As many or more the year befor that, & the year befor that etc.

Yup, and most of the guns were gotten on the black market because you can trace legal guns, so you want the guns only in the hands of criminals, great thinking champ.

cellardoor6
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 19:51:40 Reply

At 4/20/07 07:18 PM, morefngdbs wrote: I believe hand guns should be banned.
They are good only for killing people.
They are easily hidden, so they are /or can be carried without anyone realising it.
You have the right to own a gun, why does it have to be a handgun.
Buy a rifle or a shot gun, great for hunting and for shooting practice & your ready to stop the invading armies you all seem to fear there so much.

Um currently I'm more concerned about the dope smoking criminal that wants to jack my car or break into my place, or even mug me on the street. A shotgun or rifle isn't going to help you out in that situation.

Last year over 11,000 Americans were murdered by handguns.
As many or more the year befor that, & the year befor that etc.

And how many of those murders were committed by legally owned handguns? Only a small portion. How many of those murders were committed by people who attained their handguns illegally? The vast majority.

Therefore banning guns doesn't make any sense because the people committing the murders will NOT get rid of their guns if a ban is enforced, and they certainly won't refuse to buy them illegally through the black market, thus making banning handguns entirely pointless, counterintuitive, and actually counterproductive.

You didn't even read the links did you? In the UK they were just as collectively dumb as you are. They thought that banning handguns would reduce handgun crime, they were very mistaken. Their handgun crime actually doubled within 6 years, and at that rate has probably tripped by today. And now, they still have just as many handguns, except now the only people who have them are criminals, who are the ones actually committing the crime. And now, the people who would never commit a crime in the first place are the ones who can't get guns.

Don't you see how utterly dysfunctional that view is? To ban handguns? Because the people who obey the law, are the people who would never use handguns in crime in the first place!!!


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 21:51:36 Reply

At 4/20/07 07:51 PM, cellardoor6 wrote:
At 4/20/07 07:18 PM, morefngdbs wrote: I believe hand guns should be banned.
They are good only for killing people.
They are easily hidden, so they are /or can be carried without anyone realising it.
Don't you see how utterly dysfunctional that view is? To ban handguns? Because the people who obey the law, are the people who would never use handguns in crime in the first place!!!

;
Make it illeagal to manufacture hand guns.
Have the police- homeland Security- (after all they are responsible for maintaining security in the U.S.) gather as many hand guns up & destroy them.

No longer grant permits for hand guns. make selling them or passing them on to family etc. a crime.

10 maybe 20 years from now you will have much less hand gun deaths.

There is no way there is an easy solution to removing such a public threat. That doesn't mean it can not be solved.

People will still kill people.
Criminals will still get guns.
But until this asshole who murdered these people in Virginia , committed this crime he wasn't a criminal, but he was an ex mental patient. Stricter requirements wouldn't be such a bad idea if say MENTAL ILLNESS means no handgun for you.... fuck no bullets for you either.Maybe if guns weren't as easily available if there were no legal gun sales with out strict review, prepareing for something like this might get more notice


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 21:55:36 Reply

Sorry for the double post

Iam for gun control.
I am not for banning the non criminal citizen from the right to bear arms.
I believe owning a rifle or other long arm should be regulated, not banned.
Regulated is the key word folks.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 21:57:10 Reply

Giving way to controlling guns is just another way of controlling the people. Let them control the people, not the guns. That, surely, is a sign of freedom.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 22:02:22 Reply

At 4/20/07 09:54 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

the police- homeland Security- (after all they are responsible for maintaining security in the U.S.) gather as many hand guns up & destroy them.


Good luck. Watch the dead bodies pile up around LOTS of houses.

11,00 plus a year in the U.S. right now ,already sounds like a big "FUCKING"pile to this dumbfuck Canadian.

No longer grant permits for hand guns. make selling them or passing them on to family etc. a crime.

10 maybe 20 years from now you will have much less hand gun deaths.
Maybe. Maybe we'll have significantly less people that would need to be shot.

I doubt that very much, but why can't the courts decide instead of a pissed off individual (s)

There is no way there is an easy solution to removing such a public threat. That doesn't mean it can not be solved.
By creating more problems?

In solving BIG problems , there is potential to have small problems to deal with.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 22:45:57 Reply

At 4/20/07 07:51 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: You didn't even read the links did you? In the UK they were just as collectively dumb as you are. They thought that banning handguns would reduce handgun crime, they were very mistaken. Their handgun crime actually doubled within 6 years,

Of course, if you read the article, you'd know that those are just crimes in which a handgun is reported, which is rising in part due to the rising number of crimes using replicas.

What would be more relevant would be crimes in which someone was injured by a handgun.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 22:48:03 Reply

At 4/20/07 07:18 PM, morefngdbs wrote: I believe hand guns should be banned.

doesn't work.

They are good only for killing people.

you probably don't want to hear this, but hand guns are often used in hunting, especially dangerous animals that charge, like boars.

They are easily hidden, so they are /or can be carried without anyone realising it.

so can a knife, what is your point?

You have the right to own a gun, why does it have to be a handgun.

because they are practical and compact.

Buy a rifle or a shot gun, great for hunting and for shooting practice & your ready to stop the invading armies you all seem to fear there so much.

the only invading army I'm worried about is a criminal endangering my family and I'll be god damned if i let some criminal hurt someone I love, all because a bunch of crybaby gunsnatchers took away my 1 means of defending my family.


I will never be able to understand the mentality of Americans, you have a major terrorist attack that kills over 3000 people at the World Trade & Convention Centre.

British senses are tingling.... this has nothing to do with gun control! the terrorists used jets, not handguns to bring down the twin towers, they also used small blades to take over the jets.

The Nation mourns & rightly so.

if you say so.

You change your judicial system, on how terrorists are treated, you create a new enforcement branch called the Homeland Security & you give them broad & sweeping legal power.
All that for the death of 3000 plus American's.

Yep, thats the way it works.


Last year over 11,000 Americans were murdered by handguns.
As many or more the year befor that, & the year befor that etc.

people die, simple as that. 11,000 isn't that many considered how many people die in car accidents, around 41,000 http://www.unitedjustice.com/death-statistics .html and I don't hear you bitching about dropping speed limits, or hammering down on drunk driving.


11,000 dead and you do nothing, but try and mask that the problem is handguns.
That is what is wrong ladies & gents.

your grammer is terrible... and your logic is flawed. a person with a well sighted scoped rifle can kill many more people than 1 nut with a handgun out in the open. Perhaps not at 1 time...

P.S. I own 2 rifles & a shot gun my grandfather taught me to hunt & shoot, I believe that owning a gun is a priviledge not a right.

Going to the toilet in elementary school is a privelege. Self defense is a right.

I am saddened by the terrible crime committed in Virginia, it just all seems so senseless to me.

yeah we all feel that way. personally, I believe that issuing hand guns to the students at universities would cut down on the violence at school. this may sound insane but think about it. if the 32 students had guns, 1 of them would have put a bullet in ole Cho and it would have been over much faster.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 22:51:07 Reply

At 4/20/07 10:45 PM, Elfer wrote:
Of course, if you read the article, you'd know that those are just crimes in which a handgun is reported, which is rising in part due to the rising number of crimes using replicas.

replica or not, if the BELIEVES he has a gun pointed at him, then he isn't exactly going to take his chances on it not being real.


What would be more relevant would be crimes in which someone was injured by a handgun.

not really, crime is crime. However looking at tehe handgun deaths and injuries would show its own trend.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-20 23:39:33 Reply

At 4/19/07 10:50 PM, JoS wrote: I actually have explicitly stated in this thread I do not advocate banning guns. Where you got this idea I do nto know.

I think I was responding to someone else...either that or a general comment on how I believe that the idea of banning guns (of any type) would futile...it was not meant to be directed as a response to you...


First: This guy was demented to the point that he wanted to die to get the attention he could not get while he was alive. Nothing would have stopped him from getting a gun.
Again does not mean we shoudl make it easy for him. People seem to think that buying a gun on the black market is like going to Wal-mart. there is no sign saying illegal guns this way. It is do-able but it is nto easy, certainly not as easy as buying legally in Virginia. Alot of black market handguns in the US come from Virginia.

My point on this is that this case should not be held up as an example of "why we need gun control"...this guy obviously displayed the intention to carry out his attack no matter how difficult we made it for him.

However, I do agree that even though in this case prevention before execution was not going to happen...we still should not make it easy for him...hence my opinion that resident aliens should not be allowed to purchase firearms and that we need to look at how we screen for mental illness...


Should we also allow people to bring guns into highschools to shoot the next Eric and Dylan?

Yes...but strictly regulated. For example I would propose the following caveats:

1) Faculty or staff only.
2) Over 25.
3) Intense training.
4) The person with the HS CC endorsement would be kept strictly confidential.


We agree on almost all the same points, except maybe the point of allowing them into schools and shit.

How often are their shootings on Universities campuses? Now how many schools are there in the Country? The odds are probally you are more likely to be hit by lightning or win the lottery than get killed by a school shooter. So what are the chances that if you do carry a gun to school that it will ever be required. I think its an invite for disaster.

I agree that it is statistically improbable that a person with a CC will ever use it on someone at their campus. However, since Universities and Schools have issues of funding and security why not utilize resources that may be a little unconventional but at the school's immediate disposal?

In the case of University why not let former/current military and law enforcement carry weapons? How many lives could've been saved at VT if a veteran would have had the means to put Cho down rather than allow him to rampage at will?

Remember, I'm not talking about a wild west free-for-all but a rational and reasoned set of guidelines and rules as to who would be able to carry and under what conditions after intensive training...

I think we are inviting disaster by not looking at alternative options...


Debunking conspiracy theories for the New World Order since 1995...
" I hereby accuse you attempting to silence me..." --PurePress

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-21 00:27:58 Reply

At 4/20/07 07:18 PM, morefngdbs wrote: You change your judicial system, on how terrorists are treated, you create a new enforcement branch called the Homeland Security & you give them broad & sweeping legal power.

This is actually an argument for more liberal (loose) gun control...

All that for the death of 3000 plus American's.

Last year over 11,000 Americans were murdered by handguns.
As many or more the year befor that, & the year befor that etc.

11,000 dead and you do nothing, but try and mask that the problem is handguns.
That is what is wrong ladies & gents.

Brushing off the statistics that about 42,000 Americans die a year in auto accidents...

P.S. ... I believe that owning a gun is a priviledge not a right.

You know I have a theory I'm working on that in countries where there is a minority and majority population where there is ethnic tension you will get a genocide if there is an imbalance of arms. IE: one side (usually the majority) possesses either the majority or entirity of arms in that country. In Somalia, Darfur and Yugoslavia this appears to be the case.

In the US however, there one thing standing between blacks and all out genocide was the fact that although they could not vote or ride in the front of the bus they were still allowed to possess shotguns and other firearms. This way they were often (but not always) able to defend themselves against the ilk of people like the KKK (the one time terrorist arm of the Democratic Party).

So as you can see firearm ownership is not a privilidge but a right that guarantees all other rights...


Debunking conspiracy theories for the New World Order since 1995...
" I hereby accuse you attempting to silence me..." --PurePress

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-21 00:39:48 Reply

At 4/20/07 11:49 PM, Grammer wrote: Sometimes I feel that guns are more commonly used to commit crimes than they are used by civilians to prevent them.

Sometimes I feel the internet is more commonly used to stealing programs, music, and hooking up with underaged girls.

Sometimes I feel that catholic priests get into the business to hook up with altar boys.

Sometimes I feel that the 2 political parties work against each other in an effort to keep the nation divided to keep themselves in power.

so... what's your point?


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-21 00:50:09 Reply

At 4/20/07 11:49 PM, Grammer wrote: Sometimes I feel that guns are more commonly used to commit crimes than they are used by civilians to prevent them.

I'm sure thats true. But what the hell is your point?

The vast majority of crimes committed with guns are by people who don't legally own those guns. Therefore it makes no difference whether or not the guns in the hands of law abiding citizens are counteracting crime, because most law abiding gun owners aren't using their guns for crime in the first place.

It's an oxymoron to ban legal ownership of guns, because the only people that will obey those laws are the people who wouldn't use guns illegally in the first place.


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-21 01:30:21 Reply

Gun-free zones

The problem with the notion some people put forth about how shooters will go where they won't be challenged, Cho and many other people who commit these types of shootings plan on dying anyways, so the fact someone there will have a gun and could shoot them is not a deterant. Its a suicide mission, they are essentially already dead (if they dont kill themselve steh cops will or a judge will).


Bellum omnium contra omnes

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cellardoor6
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-21 01:51:43 Reply

At 4/21/07 01:01 AM, Grammer wrote:
At 4/21/07 12:50 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:
At 4/20/07 11:49 PM, Grammer wrote: Sometimes I feel that guns are more commonly used to commit crimes than they are used by civilians to prevent them.
I'm sure thats true. But what the hell is your point?
I'm starting to think the cons of guns outweigh the pros, of course. Except of course in the case of hunting, and the people who need them. Police officers and whatnot.

Wait... something to mention:

There are between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually

DGU stands for "defensive gun uses"

Who knows how many murders, rapes etc could have been committed had the victim not had a gun to protect themselves?

The vast majority of crimes committed with guns are by people who don't legally own those guns.
source plz

Oh I have a source. But that doesn't make common sense to you? It doesn't make sense to you that being a criminal who uses a firearm, that they probably couldn't get a gun legally in the first place? You disappoint me.

Take a look

Most gun crimes are committed by people who cannot legally own a firearm; sales to such people are by definition illegal. ATF data show that a tiny fraction – 1 percent – of gun dealers are the original source of 57 percent of the guns police later recover from criminals; guns from these stores make their way, directly or indirectly, into illegal gun markets.

Hmmm...

Well fuck, why don't we just abolish all gun control laws so everyone who wants to protect themselves can?

Because its entirely reasonable to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. But it makes no sense to keep guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens. It makes absolutely no sense to ban guns, when the only people who obey the bans are the people who would never commit a firearm crime in the first place.


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-04-21 08:52:55 Reply

At 4/19/07 06:23 PM, Demosthenez wrote:
Your gun crime has risen while your guns have been banned. What facts exactly are you disputing?

The alleged fact that the Dunblane massacre happened because of strict gun control in the UK - it didn't, so to use the word "proof" in your topic header is therefore justified . As I said (and, indeed, Boltrig as well) have we had a widescale gun massacre since? No, FACT. I also stated we have had gang-related shooting, but that's through illgally importing a gun, and that's usually one person at a time.

Since the Dunblane massacre, the US - home of the Second Amendment - has had Columbine, Santee and Virginia Tech, and 14 others to take into account. So, does this mean the right to bear arms is working?


Propaganda is to a Democracy what violence is to a Dictatorship
Never underestimate the significance of "significant."
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