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Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

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RacistBassist
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-17 19:11:24 Reply

At 2/17/13 06:32 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: The benefit to all gun owners is that the common criminal will not have access to guns.

But then crime will boil down to who the hardest person is, which doesn't really help people who aren't large males or have enough self-defense training to make up for any physical differences. I don't want it to devolve into it being if I decide to go and attack some old lady, her only recourse would be to wait for help.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-17 19:26:19 Reply

At 2/17/13 06:34 PM, Ceratisa wrote:
As far as you say "Liberals trying to restrict a fundamental right for the people." well you must admit this to be a classic case of the few shit Apples wrecking it for the rest. I don't want anymore homicide do you ? Guns make Homicide easier so IMO lets make it harder by taking guns off the street and out of homes. The benefit to all gun owners is that the common criminal will not have access to guns.
The strictest gun control city in the country is one of the most violent. And none of those weapons are being obtained legally because of the restrictions.

You guy's have to stop using logical fallacies to back your position up.

Popular Logical fallacy used on NGS forums -

1. ) "Gun Control Does Not Work"

2. ) "The strictest gun control city's in the country are of the most violent."

3. ) "Therefore gun control does not work."

Proper argument on gun control -

1. ) "Gun Control Does Not Work"

Gun control may not be 100% effective at reducing gun related crime and homicide but it does help dramatically reduce gun related crime and homicide.

2. ) "The strictest gun control city's in the country are of the most violent."

This statement is invalid as well as a logical fallacy argument as it implies and tries to guide the conversation in the direction that strict gun control creates more crime and violence.

3. ) "Therefore gun control does not work."

Please cite reputable facts without the use of an invalid logical fallacy that gun control raises gun related crime and homicide.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-17 20:05:16 Reply

Can you prove what is being said is false? or do you just say it is?

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-17 20:21:34 Reply

At 2/17/13 07:26 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: Gun control may not be 100% effective at reducing gun related crime and homicide but it does help dramatically reduce gun related crime and homicide.

Background checks yeah it does but banning guns don't and criminals buying guns from legal owners will always happen

This statement is invalid as well as a logical fallacy argument as it implies and tries to guide the conversation in the direction that strict gun control creates more crime and violence.

well then explain where I live where the gun laws are the loosest in the country compared to chicago. people in chicago are disarmed and have no way to defend themselves thus emboldning the criminals. and the FBI and even the Supreme Court admits it.

Please cite reputable facts without the use of an invalid logical fallacy that gun control raises gun related crime and homicide.

Mason and I have posted a whole threads worth have you been bothering to click them? FBI, Bureau of statistics, the ATF, NRA


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-17 20:50:11 Reply

Gotta say mac, nice copy and pasting


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-19 08:23:05 Reply

At 2/17/13 07:26 PM, leanlifter1 wrote: You guy's have to stop using logical fallacies to back your position up.

Actually, I use sound research conducted on this question. I do NOT use 'thought experiments' but instead realworld data to back my position up.

The pro-gun-control crowd on the other hand relies on the 'Appeal to Probablity' logical fallacy in their argument that less guns and/or banning certain types of firearms because it is probably the case. They have no empirical evidence to back it up. All they have is superficial descriptive statistics because when you start applying inferential statistics to realworld data sets the correlation between guns and crime is shown to be insignificant.

Furthermore, it appears that you are invoking the term 'logical fallacy' without understanding what a logical fallacy is. A logical fallacy is a conclusion that does not follow its premises. The arguments I have seen made by most pro-gun people on NG develop good premises and draw a sound, logical conclusion from them. I have seen many pro-gun control posters also post logically sound arguments...however their logic fails to translate into the realworld.


Proper argument on gun control -

1. ) "Gun Control Does Not Work"
Gun control may not be 100% effective at reducing gun related crime and homicide but it does help dramatically reduce gun related crime and homicide.

The reason people such as myself and TonyDG make this claim is this is where the evidence leads us. My personal argument is that we already have 'common sense' and a reasonable level of gun control. And that there is not much more we can do with it. My suggestions for tweaking gun control:

* Provide an internet background check for person-to-person sales that is somewhere between $2-10. Put it on the internet so that it is readily available at gun shows in the age of smart phones and iPads.
* More states should adopt the Missouri way of selling guns to nonresidents: you have to live in a state touching Missouri, or live in Missouri due to military orders or college. In some states like Pennsylvannia they should even restrict sales to people from New york or New Jersey.


2. ) "The strictest gun control city's in the country are of the most violent."
This statement is invalid as well as a logical fallacy argument as it implies and tries to guide the conversation in the direction that strict gun control creates more crime and violence.

This statement is based upon empirical data from realworld observation.
* We have had over 30 years of concealed carry laws in this country and have observed a decrease in crime in those states with it that is significantly larger than the nation-wide decrease in crime. On the other hand, more strict areas of the country have expereinced a slower decrease in the crime rate.


3. ) "Therefore gun control does not work."
Please cite reputable facts without the use of an invalid logical fallacy that gun control raises gun related crime and homicide.

Again, I have posted time and time again links to scientific studies showing that gun control is not effective at reducing crime. These links have been to peer-reviewed, academic journals...one cannot get more reputable than that. That you have been too lazy to actually click on them (or lack the training and/or education to understand them) is not my fault.

Furthermore, my conclusions are not "an invalid logical fallacy"...a term I pointed out earlier that you abuse in your use thereof. They are structured, consistent, and support my conclusions. Furthermore, they are supported by realworld datasets.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-19 09:12:31 Reply

The media has been going crazy over this one
http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/19/us/illinois-teen-death-gun-vio lence/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
But they keep ignoring that the place where Obama was from (Democratic) has some of the strictest gun laws in the country and the worst violence. IT is left out of pretty much every article.

The bias is reflected in most of these articles.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-20 01:29:35 Reply

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020373291_westneat17 xml.html
Forget police drones flying over your house. How about police coming inside, once a year, to have a look around?

As Orwellian as that sounds, it isnâEUTMt hypothetical. The notion of police home inspections was introduced in a bill last week in Olympia.

That itâEUTMs part of one of the major gun-control efforts pains me. It seemed in recent weeks lawmakers might be headed toward some common-sense regulation of gun sales. But then last week they went too far. By mistake, they claim. But still too far.

More in the link.

Thoughts anyone?

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-20 10:10:30 Reply

At 2/20/13 07:41 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 2/20/13 01:29 AM, Ceratisa wrote: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020373291_westneat17 xml.html
Forget police drones flying over your house. How about police coming inside, once a year, to have a look around?
More in the link.

Thoughts anyone?
Send the children in (16-20) to do the inspections. Then you can pay them minimum wage and take the fat guv money under the table that's supposed to fund it.

Then confiscate everything retroactively after passing laws outlawing what you've discovered people have.

More money get.

You understand the legality behind what the Democrats were pushing for here, right? That honestly is the kind of bullshit that makes leftleaner look credible.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-20 11:07:36 Reply

Department of Justice says "Assault Weapon" Ban unlikely to affect gun crime.
http://www.nraila.org/media/10883516/nij-gun-policy-memo.pdf
So, we have people who want police to go into homes without warrant and search and seize property. And we have the DoJ concluding that smart guns, magazine limits, and assault weapon bans are unlikely to affect gun violence.
As well as them concluding that most weapons used in violent crime are obtained in the city, regardless of restrictions on firearms there.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-20 17:11:52 Reply

At 2/20/13 01:29 AM, Ceratisa wrote:
More in the link.

Thoughts anyone?

(Note to readers: The link above is to a new version of SB 5737, which no longer contains the disputed provision. The original version of the bill has been erased from the stateâEUTMs Web site, but here you can see it as it was proposed.)

Luckily, it has been taken out of the bill. However, this means that the ban may pass. (But at least it's a state level bill where such a ban is Constitutionally more acceptable.). But hey...style/apearance over substance...that's the Democrat/Liberal position on this issue. ;)

As for the constitutionality of this...I'd like to see Camaro's take on this. On the surface it seems like it would be struck down by the US Supreme Court (SCOTUS) as violating the 4th Amendment (search and seizure).


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-21 10:34:04 Reply

As for the constitutionality of this...I'd like to see Camaro's take on this. On the surface it seems like it would be struck down by the US Supreme Court (SCOTUS) as violating the 4th Amendment (search and seizure).

I would too, let's hope he does.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-21 11:25:21 Reply

At 2/12/13 12:49 PM, TheMason wrote:
Fair enough. However, the sport does not lie in how you operate the action (ie: bolt, lever, or auto). Instead, with ethical hunting it involves knowing the land and the deer or other game on your land. The skill difference between hunting with a bolt action vs hunting with a semi-auto is really the least significant part of hunting sportsmanship.

In my opinion, the sport of hunting involves a certain amount of risk, patience, precision, and tracking. When using an Ak-47 two of those skills are immediately thrown out, precision and risk. That is if you fire one shot with a semi auto and miss, you can just instantly fire again, allowing less time for your target to escape. As for risk, well any dangerous animal that gets close to you can be shot at over and over until it's dead.

:If anything, it would make it more sporting because semi-autos are less accurate than bolt action rifles (this is why the majority of sniper rifles are bolt action and not semi-auto like the Barret or the Halo sniper rifle). Therefore, it requires the hunter to be a better shot.

So you the invention of semi automatic rifles required hunters and soldiers to be even more accurate with their shots? You've got it backwards dude.


In recent posts you were mocking me for putting forth the idea that high rates of fire and military ammo are the least capable of killing out there.

With the possible exception of Adam Lanza, the typical shooter does not know this. So they use 'common sense' and make the assumption that these type of rounds/guns will lead to more deaths. That's why I do not want to see internet ammo sales prohibited. A possible shooter goes on and see's 'mil-spec', 'military surplus', 'military' etc...they get that over HP or other more lethal ammo. Now if they go to the store they get this helpful store clerk who'll help them choose the most effective ammo for 'hunting'. So while they take time to plan out every other detail, since their logic does make sense in the absence of technical knowledge...they do not research it.

I don't have anything against buying ammo over the internet, nor am I in favor of banning semi-automatic rifles. Magazine size is my concern, but I'm pretty tiered of saying this over and over. So I'll just leave you with this thought.

Do you research on shootings that were a result of a semi-auto pistol versus a revolver. Both are handguns and are easy to conceal, however a semi-auto pistol has a much higher rate of fire, faster reload rate, and magazine capacities over twice the amount of revolvers. It seems the decreased reliability of a magazine doesn't seem to deter the majority of criminals from making it their gun of choice.

This comparative high rate of fire, fast reload rate, and large magazine capacity is an example of a deadly combination I'm talking about. Does it really need to be made more effective with magazines that can hold 20+ rounds of ammo?

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-21 14:57:25 Reply

At 2/21/13 11:25 AM, Saen wrote: In my opinion, the sport of hunting involves a certain amount of risk, patience, precision, and tracking. When using an Ak-47 two of those skills are immediately thrown out, precision and risk. That is if you fire one shot with a semi auto and miss, you can just instantly fire again, allowing less time for your target to escape. As for risk, well any dangerous animal that gets close to you can be shot at over and over until it's dead.

Saen...in the past you have admitted that you are not much of a hunter. You have a low opinion of it, as well as demonstrated a degree of ignorance on the topic. Now, engaged in a conversation with a hunter...why do you think your opinion is all that relevant? Not trying to be rude...but if hunting is just a thought experiment to you...just how valid is it compared to an actual hunter? Afterall you reveal one erroneous foundation to your opinion as well as one that is just plain silly:

* The rate of fire between a semi-auto is not all that different from a lever action or pump. I shoot skeet with a pump and it is just fine for hitting two moving targets (double barrel even better). Lever action is about the same as a pump. Yes a semi-auto is faster...but the limiting factor on rate of aimed fire is reacquring your target...which is the same irregardless of action. And I can operate a pump/level in about the time it takes to reacquire the target. Bolt...not enough to really make it more sporting. Furthermore...as I point out the semi-auto is less accurate than bolt or lever actions requiring more marksmanship. :) But in the end...not as significant a difference as you think.

* Risk: Dude...this is just silly. It reminds me of those guys who come on here talking about using swords and martial arts instead of guns for self-defense.

So you the invention of semi automatic rifles required hunters and soldiers to be even more accurate with their shots? You've got it backwards dude.

Again...step back and analyze the situation. You're talking to a guy who is a hunter and has military training. Of the two of us...who would be the more likely to have it backwards?

* the military does not use spray and pray...waste of ammo and soldiers simply could not carry enough rounds to sustain a firefight on full-auto.
* regardless of action...you still have to hit your target. Bolt actions are more accurate than autos (semi, full, or selective) because:
- The actions on autos fit more loosely which siphons energy away from the bullet.
- The cycle of firing a bullet, especially in autos that operate on the blowback principle, siphons energy from the bullet.
-- less energy means a trajectory that is less flat which, by definition, means less accurate
- The movement of the action as it cycles reduces accuracy

So...sorry Saen...you are only revealing your lack of knowledge and authority to speak on this subject.

... Magazine size is my concern, but I'm pretty tiered of saying this over and over. So I'll just leave you with this thought.

Just because you say something over and over does not make it right. You have failed to back up your argument with supporting facts...just suppositions.


Do you research on shootings that were a result of a semi-auto pistol versus a revolver. Both are handguns and are easy to conceal, however a semi-auto pistol has a much higher rate of fire, faster reload rate, and magazine capacities over twice the amount of revolvers. It seems the decreased reliability of a magazine doesn't seem to deter the majority of criminals from making it their gun of choice.

I'm very well versed in the research. When you look at the factors involving why a criminal chooses the gun he chooses you see the following trends:

* Criminals go for cheap and available over functionality and design features such as LCM (lg cap mags), reload/fire rates, accuracy, etc.
* When criminals do choose a gun based upon its characteristics...they favor larger calibur hanguns. Larger calibur handguns tend to be revolvers.
* Since criminals go for cheap and available...this is a market ruled by supply not the demand of the customers. In this case, the supply of guns follow popular trends with legitimate shooters which is subject to change. Consider:
- 1970s-1990: .357 and .38 revolvers each accounted for more than double the 9mm pistols made for the civilian market.
- 1990s: The market changed and people started buying semi-auto handguns.
* Crimes in which the criminal fired more than 10 shots: 2%...accounting for 5% of gunshot wounded. These mostly invovled pistols since 'assault rifles' are very rarely used in crime. Also, despite the fact that in only 2% of shoot-outs does the bad guy utilize the high rate of fire (how fast it shoots) and/or the high volume of fire (how many bullets are fired)...LCMs are involved in upto 26% of gun crimes. So this capability is largely superfulous and not utilized by crooks.

So once you actually look at the reasons why bad guys choose the gun they use...it is not about choice but market forces that are skewed towards supply not demand. Also, LCMs are not responsible for gun crimes. Nor is their impact, at 2% and 5%.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-21 15:21:01 Reply

This comparative high rate of fire, fast reload rate, and large magazine capacity is an example of a deadly combination I'm talking about. Does it really need to be made more effective with magazines that can hold 20+ rounds of ammo?

Look...what you are saying is perfectly reasonable and logical. However, it is not observed as significant when you look at realworld data.

First of all...let's look at the feasibility of eliminating the supply of LCMs:
* There are millions of both guns and magazines in circulation. In order to make a ban on LCMs effective...you would have to make mandatory gun buy-backs.
* LCMs are not all that difficult to make, all you need is basic high school level metal shop skills. Even if you make guns that can only accept the 7-rd mags that are legal for sale...someone who wants a LCM for nefarious purposes will be able to easily make them.
* 20+ rd LCMs tend to be more for rifles...which are used in less than 0.1% of crime historically. Of the 7,500 guns seized by Chicago PD in 2012...only 300 (or 0.04%) were assault rifles. So you are focusing on something that, statistically speaking, will have ZERO impact.

But consider this hypothethical:
Let's assume that you can magically eliminate LCMs from the civilian and criminal gun supply.
* You are expending considerable public resources in attempting to address 2% of the criminal activity...and something that is more symptomatic rather than a causal factor.
* Since neither the LCM or the gun itself is the cause of the crime...will you stop the crime? According to the Penn State study I linked to in our last conversation on the last page of this topic, the incidence of 'assault pistols" decreased but this could not be linked to drops in crime since the crime rate was dropping in general. This suggests that the bad guys will just switch to other guns...which may actually be more powerfull (as revolvers tend to be in magnum caliburs) and result in more deaths (but to be fair...the 2% of times that a bad guy uses the LCM for its rate/volume of fire accounts for more people being wounded). In the case of mass killings, based upon what we've seen in places like Columbine and Aurora, the killers may move to explosives and even chemical weapons which in many cases can be cheaper and more accessible than guns.

In the end...you are not addressing a problem that exists in the realworld. Thus, if we dealt with your fear as a legitimate basis of public policy we will be shifting time, money, and resources from programs such as Tech Goes Home which will address both the economic and educational causes of crime.

Your focus on LCMs will not have any perceptible impact on crime. However, if we would spend the money and manpower we'd spend on trying to get rid of LCMs on something that will make a poor, underprivildeged child's home life and education better and result in him and his cohort at school choose college over gangs...now THAT would actually do something.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-21 15:54:05 Reply

Okay...to all my friends who think gun control is a good idea...do you really want this guy as your spokesperson? I mean...shit...I'm stuck with Wayne LaPierre who I think may be going senile...you were good in the 1990s and have fought the good fight. But now is the time to consider retiring from it and letting a new generation take over the standard.

But enough of that...onto Biden:

* First of all he shows a cavalier attitude towards the safety of both his wife and potential perpetrator. While I do not disagree with his choice of a shotgun for the majority of home defense scenarios...unless you are retriving your child/ren...you NEVER want to either confront the home intruder or expose yourself to him. By telling Jill to go out on the balcony...he's telling her to make herself a target. This is stupid advice...bordering on negligence. Furthermore, by trying to confront the criminal you increase the chance for bloodshed. You also equalize the odds that the person getting hurt is you.

* Secondly, two qucks blasts? WTF, Joe? You're talking about a double-barrel shotgun. You fire off two blasts just willy-nilly you do two things:
-- show that you lack the responsibility to safely own guns (no wonder he thinks no one else should either), by firing blindly you risk hitting an innocent by-stander.
--show your complete and utter ignorance of tactics. You fire off two blasts in a double-barrel shotgun...and you're out of ammo! What are you going to do if that does not deter the bad guy?
--when you fire...you reveal your position and while standing on the balcony re-loading your shotgun...a bad guy hiding in the shrubs can now take a shot at you.

* Harder to aim? Harder to shoot? Again Joe...WTF? Do you enjoy setting back your side by displaying just how stupid your opinion is? How much you don't know about guns?
--How is the AR-15 more difficult to aim? Of the intermediate-powered rifles...the AR-15 is the most accurate. Furthermore, it is designed so that you can train someone who has never fired a gun to become proficient with minimal training.
--The AR-15 fires a .223 round whereas the 12guage fires either one slug that is .69" in diameter or 9 balls that are .30" diameter. Furthermore, the AR-15 uses the recoil to operate the action...reducing the 'kick' making it easier to shoot.

* Finally Joe, there are some cases where civilians can use 30 rounds.
--Varmit control for farmers/ranchers where you don't need a high powered round...and in the case of pack animals you could use the extra-rounds.
--Older homes with heavy wooden doors. Proper home defense calls for barricading yourself in a safe room and if necessary firing through a door. Older homes have heavy wooden doors, especially oak, that are capable of stopping pistol and shotgun projectiles. An AR and AK have the penetrating capability to shoot through these doors. After shooting 7 rounds...having more as back-up is a good thing in case there is more than one perp.
--Temporary Feral Cities like New Orleans post-Katrina or LA during the Rodney King riots. In these cases, you would want suppressing fire since you could be defending your property against looters and rioters.

Sorry Joe...but you make zero points that actually supports your policy position. Just affirmation that you are not qualified to make decisions regarding what is or is not 'common sense', 'reasonable', or 'rational' gun control policy.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-21 17:22:13 Reply

At 2/21/13 03:56 PM, TheMason wrote: Oops...link didn't post.

Why does anyone even want to limit magazines or "Assault Weapons"
http://www.nraila.org/media/10883516/nij-gun-policy-memo.pdf
If the Obama's DoJ is credible it won't affect gun violence like I linked before
This is about emotions not fact, and the pro gun control people only prove it with crap like this.
So lets cause some major spray and disarm ourselves at the same time. (Hope we don't hit a neighbor with our warming "blasts"

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-21 19:27:24 Reply

At 2/21/13 11:25 AM, Saen wrote: In my opinion, the sport of hunting involves a certain amount of risk, patience, precision, and tracking. When using an Ak-47 two of those skills are immediately thrown out, precision and risk. That is if you fire one shot with a semi auto and miss, you can just instantly fire again, allowing less time for your target to escape. As for risk, well any dangerous animal that gets close to you can be shot at over and over until it's dead.

Your opinion means fuck all. Precision and risk do not go out the window. All a semi-automatic does is make it down to personal preference and being able to have a quick follow up shot for an ethical kill if you scored a shot but it isn't one of the instantly fatal ones. Shit, I would argue it takes more skill due to the need to be closer compared to the more traditionally used rifles. And are you seriously suggesting that hunters should be forced to take a greater personal risk due to wild animals if they go out hunting?

So you the invention of semi automatic rifles required hunters and soldiers to be even more accurate with their shots? You've got it backwards dude.

Yes it does. Those super scary carbines just aren't designed to be about laying down highly accurate fire. They're meant to keep the enemies head down, or to tear things up in close quarters. There's a reason why rifleman have such low kill counts in wars.

I don't have anything against buying ammo over the internet, nor am I in favor of banning semi-automatic rifles. Magazine size is my concern, but I'm pretty tiered of saying this over and over. So I'll just leave you with this thought.

Do you research on shootings that were a result of a semi-auto pistol versus a revolver. Both are handguns and are easy to conceal, however a semi-auto pistol has a much higher rate of fire, faster reload rate, and magazine capacities over twice the amount of revolvers. It seems the decreased reliability of a magazine doesn't seem to deter the majority of criminals from making it their gun of choice.

This comparative high rate of fire, fast reload rate, and large magazine capacity is an example of a deadly combination I'm talking about. Does it really need to be made more effective with magazines that can hold 20+ rounds of ammo?

When shooting at something that doesn't shoot back it doesn't matter if you need to reload every 30 or every 5. You could walk around killing everybody execution style with a revolver, or you could just spray and pray with an assault rifle knockoff. You have until somebody armed shows up to rack up the kills.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-21 19:41:57 Reply

At 2/21/13 11:25 AM, Saen wrote: In my opinion,

right there

the sport of hunting involves a certain amount of risk, patience, precision, and tracking. When using an Ak-47 two of those skills are immediately thrown out, precision and risk. That is if you fire one shot with a semi auto and miss, you can just instantly fire again, allowing less time for your target to escape. As for risk, well any dangerous animal that gets close to you can be shot at over and over until it's dead.

one you are not a hunter you have admitted ignorance on the subject, if you have you would know it requires all of this regardless if its a semi-auto or a bolt action. Rate of fire is not a issue.


If anything, it would make it more sporting because semi-autos are less accurate than bolt action rifles (this is why the majority of sniper rifles are bolt action and not semi-auto like the Barret or the Halo sniper rifle). Therefore, it requires the hunter to be a better shot.
So you the invention of semi automatic rifles required hunters and soldiers to be even more accurate with their shots? You've got it backwards dude.

-LOL Rate of fire doesn't promote Spray n pray.
- you still have to hit your target regardless what firing mode its in
- less energy means a trajectory that is less flat which, by definition, means less accurate
- The movement of the action as it cycles reduces accuracy

Magazine size is my concern, but I'm pretty tiered of saying this over and over.

To bad its a DEAD ISSUE everyone knows ( who are knowledgeable in the Subject) knows that Hi-cap mags don't promote spray and pray and are highly ineffective due to the fact they are cumbersome, heavy and VERY prone to jamming

Do you research on shootings that were a result of a semi-auto pistol versus a revolver. Both are handguns and are easy to conceal, however a semi-auto pistol has a much higher rate of fire, faster reload rate, and magazine capacities over twice the amount of revolvers. It seems the decreased reliability of a magazine doesn't seem to deter the majority of criminals from making it their gun of choice.

This comparative high rate of fire, fast reload rate, and large magazine capacity is an example of a deadly combination I'm talking about. Does it really need to be made more effective with magazines that can hold 20+ rounds of ammo?

since Mason just schooled your ass with three posts with shit I was gonna say I might as well not bother

do some REAL research kid.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-22 12:19:06 Reply

So back in the days when war was conducted with muskets, a frontline footmen could afford to be less accurate than if he was armed with a semi-auto? Absolutely not. When you have x-amount of reload/recovery time after firing a shot, you need to be that much more accurate when firing opposed to a semi-auto of similar accuracy.

This will be my final though on hunting. One of the biggest contradictions within the conservative party is their views on guns and hunting. When it comes to any other political issue, the old way and preserving traditional methods always comes first. But when it comes to guns and hunting and even fishing, technology can't progress fast enough! Semi-auto heavy assault rifles, high caliber hollow points, shooting from a helicopter, truck, off-road vehicle are all very much embraced in the America way of "hunting".

Oh and Mason, no culture of people on this planet has ever used swords or knifes as weapons for hunting. The most extreme method of hunting (a method which none of you could possible fathom doing let alone imagine possible) is marathon tracking and hunting, where one or a few runners, armed with a spear chase and track their prey for hours until it physically collapses from exhaustion or is within throwing range.

Any weapon or hunting method that makes your target as easy and efficient to kill while keeping you as far away from danger as possible adds to the sport of hunting in your minds. Fucking definition of a pussy right there. Hell hunters here won't even step foot in the woods, because they're afraid of coyotes, bears, or burning a few calories! Meanwhile I spend the entire day deep in the forest with only a knife, compass, and my experimental equipment! This only adds to my point that gun fanatics are terrified of their own shadows and will never feel adequately armed for any kind of threat. What a way miserable way to live your life.

Obviously reducing magazine size would be cutting too much off your dick sizes, so I suggest we move onto another topic.

Requiring liability insurance for owning a gun. Gone on, tell me why you all disagree and that this is another outrageous and constitootionally unacceptable idea!

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-22 12:32:05 Reply

At 2/22/13 12:19 PM, Saen wrote: Oh and Mason, no culture of people on this planet has ever used swords or knifes as weapons for hunting.

"Dude...this is just silly. It reminds me of those guys who come on here talking about using swords and martial arts instead of guns for self-defense."

I don't think I need to help Mason in defending himself, but seriously, do you even bother reading what people say to you? Everything else in your post is just mindless drivel.


Wut?

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-22 12:40:59 Reply

At 2/22/13 12:19 PM, Saen wrote: So back in the days when war was conducted with muskets, a frontline footmen could afford to be less accurate than if he was armed with a semi-auto? Absolutely not. When you have x-amount of reload/recovery time after firing a shot, you need to be that much more accurate when firing opposed to a semi-auto of similar accuracy.

strawmen argument

This will be my final though on hunting. One of the biggest contradictions within the conservative party is their views on guns and hunting. When it comes to any other political issue, the old way and preserving traditional methods always comes first. But when it comes to guns and hunting and even fishing, technology can't progress fast enough! Semi-auto heavy assault rifles, high caliber hollow points, shooting from a helicopter, truck, off-road vehicle are all very much embraced in the America way of "hunting".

yeah because the republican party values and preserves the Second Amendment for the reason it was drafted to protect yourself and have a means to overthrow a tyrannical unconstitutional government. Hollow points ruin the meat because you wont be able to separate it from the meat if you had knowledge in the subject you would know that. yup its not unheard of to hunt from a truck in some areas since hunting season there is COLD.

Any weapon or hunting method that makes your target as easy and efficient to kill while keeping you as far away from danger as possible adds to the sport of hunting in your minds. Fucking definition of a pussy right there.

lets see you trek 3 miles with 150Lb of gear then when you finally get a shot. or at least wait Semi-auto is use to ensure you get a clean kill with the second round otherwise if you use more than one you have a chance of ruining the meat.

once again your ignorance is showing

Hell hunters here won't even step foot in the woods, because they're afraid of coyotes, bears, or burning a few calories! Meanwhile I spend the entire day deep in the forest with only a knife, compass, and my experimental equipment! This only adds to my point that gun fanatics are terrified of their own shadows and will never feel adequately armed for any kind of threat. What a way miserable way to live your life.

where do you live? and I call bullshit with the knife its probably because the forest area is private land with no trespassing and hunting there can lead to either a misdamenor to a FELONY (in some states)

Obviously reducing magazine size would be cutting too much off your dick sizes, so I suggest we move onto another topic.

not really. Magazine size is a DEAD ISSUE, it doesn't promote spray n pray, it james more often and they are cumbersome.
if anything they are for self defense (20R pistol mag) or competitive and recreational shooting.

perfectly legal

Requiring liability insurance for owning a gun. Gone on, tell me why you all disagree and that this is another outrageous and constitootionally unacceptable idea!

because U.S. Insurers Resist Push to Make Gun Owners Get Coverage and the fact that gun owners (citizens), the Gun Lobby and gun makers don't want it. the bill that they tried passing would make gun owners insure there guns which would cost $200 a firearm Monthly

now why don't you go back to General?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-22 13:16:56 Reply

At 2/22/13 12:40 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
yeah because the republican party values and preserves the Second Amendment for the reason it was drafted to protect yourself and have a means to overthrow a tyrannical unconstitutional government. Hollow points ruin the meat because you wont be able to separate it from the meat if you had knowledge in the subject you would know that.

Completely missed the point I was making.

yup its not unheard of to hunt from a truck in some areas since hunting season there is COLD.

Like I've said, definition of a pussy.


lets see you trek 3 miles with 150Lb of gear then when you finally get a shot. or at least wait Semi-auto is use to ensure you get a clean kill with the second round otherwise if you use more than one you have a chance of ruining the meat.

Going to be much much more than 3miles trekking if you're actually hunting and tracking your target. That's why very few Americans and certainly no hunters in Florida actually do this, they're far too lazy! They sit in their truck on the side of the road, let their dogs out into the woods, and sit and wait, they don't even step foot in the woods!


where do you live? and I call bullshit with the knife its probably because the forest area is private land with no trespassing and hunting there can lead to either a misdamenor to a FELONY (in some states)

The Apalachicola National Forest in the panhandle of Florida, where hunting is most certainly allowed in season along with with a hunting license.


not really. Magazine size is a DEAD ISSUE, it doesn't promote spray n pray, it james more often and they are cumbersome.
if anything they are for self defense (20R pistol mag) or competitive and recreational shooting.

It is certainly not a dead issue in Connecticut and many other states, but I am absolutely disgusted and through talking about it any further with you guys.


because U.S. Insurers Resist Push to Make Gun Owners Get Coverage and the fact that gun owners (citizens), the Gun Lobby and gun makers don't want it. the bill that they tried passing would make gun owners insure there guns which would cost $200 a firearm Monthly

An it's not too expensive for an average gun owner to buy dozens of guns, even take out loans to buy more guns, and yet they can't afford the insurance?


now why don't you go back to General?

My first post ever on NG was in politics and was the reason I created an account in the first place.

There is nothing more precious to a redneck than his gun, that's why these debates get so heated. I've lived in the south for just about my whole life, I'm used to it. The point of a gun control debate is to reduce violence and killings, the vast majority of which are caused by guns.

Here is an opinion of mine which I'm sure you'll fine interesting. One method I'm in favor for reducing gun violence is much harsher legal punishment for gun-related crimes. For example, a person murders someone else in cold blood, so shooting someone over an x-box, $20, drugs, etc. is put in prison FOR LIFE, period.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-22 13:36:11 Reply

At 2/22/13 01:16 PM, Saen wrote:
Here is an opinion of mine which I'm sure you'll fine interesting. One method I'm in favor for reducing gun violence is much harsher legal punishment for gun-related crimes. For example, a person murders someone else in cold blood, so shooting someone over an x-box, $20, drugs, etc. is put in prison FOR LIFE, period.

Now I can see how you'll take this the wrong way and yell, "Well people will just use knifes to kill each other retard! Guns don't kill people, floobity derp de durp!"

No that's not the idea, the idea is murder in cold blood = in prison for life :'(. Potential criminals think "gee wiz, maybe I shouldn't shoot this guy for $20 so I don't get locked up for the rest of my life."

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-22 13:46:19 Reply

At 2/22/13 01:16 PM, Saen wrote: Completely missed the point I was making.

hardly

Like I've said, definition of a pussy.

no its not in hunting season here in Minnesota it can get -10 to -30 during hunting season its called common sense but most people do trek it but might take a truck or 4 wheeler just to carry gear and game.

of course you wouldn't know since you play golf.

Going to be much much more than 3miles trekking if you're actually hunting and tracking your target. That's why very few Americans and certainly no hunters in Florida actually do this, they're far too lazy! They sit in their truck on the side of the road, let their dogs out into the woods, and sit and wait, they don't even step foot in the woods!

convience plus the fact that hunter deaths are common. if you come up to minnesota its nothing but roaming in forests until the snow hits thats when truck hunting and deer stands come into play.

you judge all hunters on the basis of Florida ones you must be real ignorant.

It is certainly not a dead issue in Connecticut and many other states, but I am absolutely disgusted and through talking about it any further with you guys.

of course because Mason and I debunked all the shit you said because: you have no real experience on this issue

An it's not too expensive for an average gun owner to buy dozens of guns, even take out loans to buy more guns, and yet they can't afford the insurance?

lets I own 36 firearms and if I have to pay lets say 100 a month for each whats 100X36 thats $3,600 annually and the fact that the premiums can go up is even more discerning.

The point of a gun control debate is to reduce violence and killings, the vast majority of which are caused by guns.

to bad thats not the case seeing California, Chicago, NYC, Jersey just do the research. they are all heavy Gun control states and haven't done shit.

Here is an opinion of mine which I'm sure you'll fine interesting. One method I'm in favor for reducing gun violence is much harsher legal punishment for gun-related crimes. For example, a person murders someone else in cold blood, so shooting someone over an x-box, $20, drugs, etc. is put in prison FOR LIFE, period.

personally I am in favor for hard labor for life. they can rebuild and or maintain the crumbling national infrastructure.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-22 13:47:50 Reply

At 2/22/13 01:36 PM, Saen wrote: No that's not the idea, the idea is murder in cold blood = in prison for life :'(. Potential criminals think "gee wiz, maybe I shouldn't shoot this guy for $20 so I don't get locked up for the rest of my life."

unfortunately some people get to the point they don't care about themselves and just do it anyways. then you have fanatics, people against the wall, the plain crazies etc.

ya can only do so much.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-22 13:49:40 Reply

not really. Magazine size is a DEAD ISSUE, it doesn't promote spray n pray, it james more often and they are cumbersome.
if anything they are for self defense (20R pistol mag) or competitive and recreational shooting.
It is certainly not a dead issue in Connecticut and many other states, but I am absolutely disgusted and through talking about it any further with you guys.

Like I've linked the DoJ doesn't think it will have an affect. And the most fatal school shooting of all time was carried out with two handguns with a 10 and 15 round capacity.
Most mass shootings in general occur in gun free zones.
Guess who actually cares about gun free zones (Hint not mass murderers)

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-22 14:13:43 Reply

At 2/22/13 01:49 PM, Ceratisa wrote:
Like I've linked the DoJ doesn't think it will have an affect. And the most fatal school shooting of all time was carried out with two handguns with a 10 and 15 round capacity.
Most mass shootings in general occur in gun free zones.
Guess who actually cares about gun free zones (Hint not mass murderers)

Then how was Adam Lanza able to kill 26 people and his own mother with a weapon that's supposedly not lethal, unreliable, and inaccurate? This is directly adressed at the weapon used, not whether or not teachers, children, or officers were armed.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2013-02-22 14:28:33 Reply

At 2/22/13 01:46 PM, Tony-DarkGrave wrote:
lets I own 36 firearms and if I have to pay lets say 100 a month for each whats 100X36 thats $3,600 annually and the fact that the premiums can go up is even more discerning.

Lmao I'm sorry did you mean to say 36 firearms?


to bad thats not the case seeing California, Chicago, NYC, Jersey just do the research. they are all heavy Gun control states and haven't done shit.

And what about Louisiana having the highest homicide rate? Florida, North and South Carolina, Alabama, Missouri, Mississippi, all much some of the highest murder rates, even higher than New York or New Jersey

I lived in the murder capital of Florida, Jacksonville for 12 years, turn on the 11 o'clock news, 3 people dead, shot to death, every single fucking day. A high concentration of guns along with little to no regulation is a huge liability. This is exactly why the southern states have the highest murder rates.