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Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

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HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-03 16:06:42 Reply

It is true that one has developed, but if we go back to pre-civil war times, there's no such thing.

Anyway, gun culture or not, gun control is necessary. I haven't seen one rational explanation for opposing regulation of firearms yet, and I don't expect to.

Proteas
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-03 16:09:50 Reply

At 6/3/07 04:06 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: but if we go back to pre-civil war times, there's no such thing.

And that has what kind of bearing on the cultural landscape... today?

Anyway, gun culture or not, gun control is necessary. I haven't seen one rational explanation for opposing regulation of firearms yet, and I don't expect to.

Okay, let's just ignore the whole "rampaging government squashing people's rights" thing I mentioned a while back...


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HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-03 16:13:54 Reply

I see no reason to believe that (a.) a rampaging government would come into power here and (b.) that any action we as individuals take would stop it (it only worked in "Red Dawn"). Not to say that b means that you shouldn't fight an oppressive government, but once a dictatorship is in power, well, yeah.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-03 16:21:56 Reply

At 6/3/07 04:06 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Anyway, gun culture or not, gun control is necessary. I haven't seen one rational explanation for opposing regulation of firearms yet, and I don't expect to.

Because you are not open to debate. Stop acting like you are some fucking arbiter of what all is right and holy and what is logical. YOU ARE NOT THE JUDGE, JURY, AND PEOPLE. Get that through your head and cut the arrogance, not everywhere in America is your New England utopia, nor wants to be.

And it is funny you juxtapose "gun control is necessary" and "no rational explanations for opposing regulation of firearms" when you have given not a shred of compelling evidence to overturn the system we have now. Now who has the onus to provide evidence for change? The one calling for the change or the one defending the status quo, with the entire history of our nation backing it? Chew on that for a New York minute before you post again.

Proteas
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-03 16:39:25 Reply

At 6/3/07 04:13 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: I see no reason to believe that (a.) a rampaging government would come into power here and (b.) that any action we as individuals take would stop it (it only worked in "Red Dawn"). Not to say that b means that you shouldn't fight an oppressive government, but once a dictatorship is in power, well, yeah.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you already denounced the U.S. Government on several occaisons as being a tyrannical autocracy that should be dealt with accordingly?

How exactly were you intending to deal with said government? A bloodless coup?


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HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-03 16:43:12 Reply

30,000 gun deaths per year.

How does that sound?

In Connecticut, there's a bunch of very poor cities (Hartford, Bridgeport, for example), and yet there are how many gun deaths per 100,000 people? In 1996, there were 0.17 deaths per 100,000 persons.

Connecticut gets an A- from the Brady Campaign, meaning that it has strong anti-gun laws.

By the same methodology, let's look at Mississippi. It gets an F from the Brady Campaign, meaning that it has weak gun laws. There were, in 1996, 1.48 deaths per 100,000 persons.

Both states have about the same population, yet have different gun laws – drastically different.

Source for the casualty data:
http://www.vpc.org/studies/whostate.htm

Ravariel
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-03 16:45:17 Reply

Don't suppose you have statistics that aren't 11 years old?


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-03 20:49:10 Reply

Here's a list of studies: http://www.vpc.org/studyndx.htm

There are many, many of them.

Here's a favorite of mine: http://www.vpc.org/studies/gunownership.pdf

"[G]un ownership has been declining over the last 35 years and the 9/11
terrorist attacks did not reverse that trend."

How's that sound?

Ravariel
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-03 22:46:55 Reply

At 6/3/07 08:49 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Here's a list of studies: http://www.vpc.org/studyndx.htm

There are many, many of them.

Looking through them now... many of which are laughable, I have to say. Regardless, cherrypicking 2 States whose numbers match up to what you want to believe tells us nothing of substance. What're the deaths by gun per 100,000 in California or Michigan which have stricter gun laws than your example? What about Montana and Texas which have very lax gun laws?

"[G]un ownership has been declining over the last 35 years and the 9/11
terrorist attacks did not reverse that trend."

How's that sound?

Sounds completely irrelevant.


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

Demosthenez
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-04 05:50:57 Reply

At 6/3/07 04:43 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Connecticut

Connecticut is also richer, whiter, older, more educated, and beats the national average on the positive side on damn near every catagory. And lets face it, Connecticut isnt exactly on any drug dealers radar or any gang bangers radar. Connecticut doesnt have loads of cocaine coming through its cities like you got in Miami. You dont have sprawling projects with long histories of gang violence like you got in New York or Los Angeles or Oakland.

Your state is happy with the way it is, fine. Dont fucking push your garbage on us, on every state, with the federal government.

D2Kvirus
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-06 10:11:34 Reply

At 6/3/07 03:28 PM, Demosthenez wrote:
At 6/3/07 11:31 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: Europe, Liberal? Your argument comes crashing down around your ears on that point - most countries in Europe have conservativ (upper or lower case C) governments and certainly attitudes.
Statist is a better word. A "Big Government" government is another.

Please, most of Europe has a grudge against each other (or, in England's case, we just hate everyone: especially France, Germany, Scotland and anyone else who happens to not be British - feel free to note that Scots are British, thus showing what that argument is really about).

Most of europe is also riddled with corruption, notably Greece and Italy, who go through government scandals so fast that Tony Blair has only recently got the UK in line with certain parts of Europe.

Several Governments in Europe, Germany and in Scandanavia for example, are also coilition governments, not one party in control.

I see you didn't actually answer why some states have inflated gun deaths compared to their populations. Strange, that.
He already did and you ignorantly denied it: culture. Places are different, some places are poorer, some are more violent, some have more ethnic violence, more gaybashing, whatever. It all comes down to culture and I cannot possibly see how you discount that.

Ah, back to throwing around claims of "ignorance" again, are we? Typical tactic of a hateful sack of gibberish...

Now, you say places have different culture, which I said already doesn't stand up as a blanket explanation, because that's simplicism to the Nth degree. You reel off a list of reasons (more violent, poorer, ethnic lines etc.), yet Alabama, a poor, gun-toting, intolerant state is in 20th position, while South Carolina is in 19th - but they prefer to tie blacks to the back of their pick up truckand drag them to death there, so that may have affected their statistics somewhat.

As for being poor, California makes up four of the top ten richest cities in the US (San Jose, San Francisco, San Diego and Anaheim - Oakland is in 11th). Of course, there mayalso be a good reason Hawaii is so low (40th out of 50), and that's because their indiginous population isn't white anglo saxon, while North Dakota is in 50th as it's too damn cold to go on a killing spree.


Propaganda is to a Democracy what violence is to a Dictatorship Never underestimate the significance of "significant." NG Politics Discussion 101

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Proteas
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-06 14:09:16 Reply

At 6/6/07 10:11 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: You reel off a list of reasons (more violent, poorer, ethnic lines etc.), yet Alabama, a poor, gun-toting, intolerant state is in 20th position, while South Carolina is in 19th

And yet, Kennessaw, Georgia, has a law stating that all citizens of the legal age must own and maintain firearms, and their crime rates are the lowest in the state. Read on, then try and explain that one away as statistically insignificant.

- but they prefer to tie blacks to the back of their pick up truckand drag them to death there, so that may have affected their statistics somewhat.

Well, let's you see back THAT statement up with fact, shall we?

Or do I have to call you racist first?


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HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-06 15:00:11 Reply

At 6/4/07 05:50 AM, Demosthenez wrote:
Connecticut is also richer, whiter, older, more educated, and beats the national average on the positive side on damn near every catagory.

Very much true, very true.

Yet we have:

Bridgeport and Hartford.

The national murder rate is "5.6 murders per 100,000 inhabitants," according to the 2005 FBI Uniform Crime Report (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/viole nt_crime/murder_homicide.html). In 2005, there were 19 murders in Bridgeport, a city then with 140,177 inhabitants (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_08_
ct.html
) That's quite a few deaths. Hartford, a city of 125,086, had 25 murders (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_08_
ct.html
). Connecticut is not such a paradise...It's a great state, but, hey, now, we have our problem cities.

And lets face it, Connecticut isnt exactly on any drug dealers radar or any gang bangers radar.

I say again: Bridgeport and Hartford.

Your state is happy with the way it is, fine. Dont fucking push your garbage on us, on every state, with the federal government.

Most of our "garbage" works. High education spending, gun control and strong protection for civil liberties do a state good.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-06 15:15:31 Reply

At 6/6/07 02:09 PM, Proteas wrote: And yet, Kennessaw, Georgia, has a law stating that all citizens of the legal age must own and maintain firearms, and their crime rates are the lowest in the state. Read on, then try and explain that one away as statistically insignificant.

It's statistically insignificant because it:
A) Is an isolated case
B) Doesn't have any controls that would allow us to compare it to other cities with different gun laws

Proteas
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-06 15:23:13 Reply

At 6/6/07 03:15 PM, Elfer wrote: It's statistically insignificant because it:
A) Is an isolated case
B) Doesn't have any controls that would allow us to compare it to other cities with different gun laws

Ah yes... whereas Washington D.C. is also "statistically insignificant" for having the most strict gun laws in the nation and the highest incidence of murder, right?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-06 23:15:07 Reply

Gun control doesnt stop violence all it does is make people madder. If you want to stop violence you have to have more control on who gets guns. Not baning guns from everyone because hell that is not right. Guns dont kill people, people kill people its not a problem of guns but a problem of people who buy the guns.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-07 08:27:36 Reply

At 6/6/07 03:23 PM, Proteas wrote:
At 6/6/07 03:15 PM, Elfer wrote: It's statistically insignificant because it:
A) Is an isolated case
B) Doesn't have any controls that would allow us to compare it to other cities with different gun laws
Ah yes... whereas Washington D.C. is also "statistically insignificant" for having the most strict gun laws in the nation and the highest incidence of murder, right?

Yes.

Unless you're willing to argue that Kennesaw and Washington D.C. have no significant differences other than gun ownership.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-07 12:54:18 Reply

remeber when clinton put in the automatic weapon ban. it went up a few years ago. but we saw something like a 30% decrease in murder by gun. seems a pretty solid conclusion.

D2Kvirus
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-07 17:42:20 Reply

At 6/6/07 02:09 PM, Proteas wrote:
At 6/6/07 10:11 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: You reel off a list of reasons (more violent, poorer, ethnic lines etc.), yet Alabama, a poor, gun-toting, intolerant state is in 20th position, while South Carolina is in 19th
And yet, Kennessaw, Georgia, has a law stating that all citizens of the legal age must own and maintain firearms, and their crime rates are the lowest in the state. Read on, then try and explain that one away as statistically insignificant.

I note that Georgia is #8 when it comes to firearms deaths of all the states, though. So, should we arm every county and see if that replicates?

Did you read the link, or are you hoping to bluff it?

- but they prefer to tie blacks to the back of their pick up truckand drag them to death there, so that may have affected their statistics somewhat.
Well, let's you see back THAT statement up with fact, shall we?

I see you conveniently forgot the James Byrd case of 1999, where that exact course of events happened?

Or do I have to call you racist first?

So, apart from the fact the people of South Carolina aren't a race, they're a section of whi8te anglo saxon males that happen to live in America so the only people that would try and play the race card are:
a.) South carolina residents
b.) Idiotic

Your point was...ah fuck it, you never had one.


Propaganda is to a Democracy what violence is to a Dictatorship Never underestimate the significance of "significant." NG Politics Discussion 101

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-08 09:30:18 Reply

At 6/7/07 05:42 PM, D2Kvirus wrote:
At 6/6/07 02:09 PM, Proteas wrote: And yet, Kennessaw, Georgia, has a law stating that all citizens of the legal age must own and maintain firearms, and their crime rates are the lowest in the state. Read on, then try and explain that one away as statistically insignificant.
I note that Georgia is #8 when it comes to firearms deaths of all the states, though. So, should we arm every county and see if that replicates?

You dudes. I should totally start a thread on how to properly use statistics as evidence. It would be a party.

HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-08 16:17:56 Reply

It would be, how shall I say it, interesting, at the least.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-06-09 00:31:37 Reply

You're right cellardoor, just because gun control has been unable to prevent a few isolated incidents we should throw caution to the wind and allow everyone and thier mum to have military-issue fully automatic weapons. Don't worry, why would we want to use them to kill people when they're good for so many other things?

Idiot

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world -- Eugene Debs

yankeefan22
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-07-03 01:43:54 Reply

A few words. Guns kill people the way spoons made Rosie O'Donnel fat. WTF does it mean? The person did it. Not the gun.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-07-03 06:23:23 Reply

At 5/30/07 10:33 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: France has heavily legislated gun laws, and Germany even more so, and thet don't have a gun crime rate remotely near the US: in fact, add up the British, German, French and Australian numbers, and they're nowhere near the US, even though the population is more than half.

That not a point?

NOPE.
For same reasons said above.
Australia Pre gun ban: gun deaths below those in US.
Australia Post gun ban: gun deaths below those in US.

Even assuming that gun deaths dropped in half after the ban...the ban didn't cause gun deaths to be below the US average.

OK, here's one thing for you: British gun crime is more or less entirely based in the London boroughs of Hackney, Stretham and Peckham, as wellas the Moss Side area of Manchester - areas with large gang cultures. Take those out of the equation, and the number of people killed with guns in the UK would practically be in single figures.

And take out the urban areas in the US with large minority populations and the US crime rate plummets as well.
Screw that noise, you don't get to cherry pick your figures. Everytime your argument is pointed out to be the absolute BS that it is, you try to reframe the debate.
So your current tactic is "ignore all the areas that have crime...and we have no crime?" Well, guess what chuckles...we can do that here too.
Ignore New York, LA, Dallas, Detroit, St. Louis, etc, and our gun crime rates aren't worth mentioning either.


In the US, both gun-related crimes and gun-related deaths happen nationwide. You can't compare unless you're trying to discredit someone on a subject you've deluded yourself into submission over.

Again, reframe the debate...
"Our gun crime is in one area, yours is national."
Did you know that during Guilliani's term as mayor, his policies affected NATIONAL crime stats? His policies alone cause national crime to drop about 20%.

And if that's the best you can do, that's why I don't give you any credit.

I've demolished your ideas on every scale possible.

If you want to stay on subject, you should say your children are well-behaved because you point a gun at them every time they do something "wrong", which will cost youa large amount of cash in counselling or get you arrested.

Notice, in my example, there is no gun. Only spanking.
This is why you're losing this debate.

And how many have been killed with automatic weapons since the ban. Why, that would be the grand total of 0, wouldn't it?

Um, no.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/666 7597.stm
http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

That's just two examples.
But the death count ISN'T zero. Just as teh GUN DEATH COUNT isn't zero. Etc.


You see, in my lifetime there have only been two gun massacres in the UK: Hungerford in 1987, and Dunblaine in 1996. In the US, we've had James Huberty, Columbine, Virginia Tech, Santee, Wakefield, Jonesboro, the Amish high school, Stockton, Patrick Sherill (who coined the phrase "Going postal") - all of which using guns, I hasten to add (if you hadn't worked it out already) - be they automatic, semi-automatic, or handguns.

So what does this prove?

I'd stipulate that we are a much more violent society than you. That's fine.
I'd stipulate we have more murders, that's fine.

But the facts still remain the same.

1. Guns are not the reason why.
2. Murders in the US are lower now than a decade ago.
3. Murders in teh UK are slightly higher, despite gun control. (And if you have a drop next year, you can say that...in the long run, gun control has had zero effect).

Despite your nonsense, you still can't prove the case that gun control has made England safer.

Instead you keep pointing to irrelevant data. But hell, I'll argue on your level.

My friend has red hair and has been hit by a car.
I don't have red hair and have never been hit by a car.
The color of our hair has determined which one of us gets hit by a car.

In the end...this is just how stupid your argument is.


Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.

WolvenBear
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-07-03 06:44:47 Reply

At 5/30/07 01:05 PM, Elfer wrote: Are you saying that the UN just purposely made up statistics? I think if there was actual bias, you'd be able to find it in the methodology, rather than just saying "I trust nothing from the UN because they often say things I don't like"

Sigh, Elfer, I'd expect better from you.
I forget who I was mocking, but their entire basis to my argument was to call bias and ignore it.
So I did the same to them.
That I have a BASIS for my argument as UN studies tend to actually be biased is irrelevant.
The point I was trying to make is what's important.

At 6/2/07 11:43 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: Cultural changes are being legislated all the time: after all, smoking is being erradicated at present, and certainly that is a huge cultural shift for Scotland and Ireland (it doesn't come into force in England until July), and that hasn't been hard.

To say nothing of whether this is good for soceity or not...

But thie idea of "cultural differences" doesn't add up, as the UK has 20% of the US population and hundreds of years of history at war with (among others) the French, and each other (mainly England vs Scotland), on top of our Celtic roots, Viking and Roman invasions and a Civil War or two, yet we just aren't killing each other at rate that 0.01% of our population is gunned down each year (as opposed to the 0.0001% in the UK - there's a percentage to hold up when discussing gun crime rates, WolvenBear).

So you say cultural differences can't explain anything, and then point to raw numbers again.
I'm changing my opinion back...you're just plain stupid.

I mean hell, we fought a war over STAMPS.


If you look at it state by state as it doesn't match up with the population: California is top in both, but Kentucky is notably ahead of Massachusetts despite having 2m less population, for example.

AGAIN, cultural differences. You failed public school didn't you?

I say the Australian model (hinted at earlier) works: every gun has to have a license, and a legitimate reason for ownership - and "self defence" isn't one of them. Face it, if a wannabe gang banger walked inmto a gun store and said he wanted a Gloc for pest control, he'd be shown the door.

I can show you three examples from Australia in the past month that shows "gun confiscation" failed.

At 6/3/07 11:31 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: I know, a lot more people die from other peoples' bullets than their own, a complete 180 of the smoking risks...

Just to be a dick...
Cause liberals love Wikipedia....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_
the_United_States

The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[12] with firearms used in 16,907 suicides in the United States during 2004.[1]
The source for that is the CDC.

Again, you don't know half the hell what you're talking about.

Europe, Liberal? Your argument comes crashing down around your ears on that point - most countries in Europe have conservativ (upper or lower case C) governments and certainly attitudes.

Most European gov'ts are far more socialistic (see:liberal) than America.

Funny, when handguns were banned in 1997, we did so (apart from the IRA, who seem happy to hold onto their guns no matter how many times they're asked nicely to, you know, give them up - or how many times they promised they'd disarm).

OH MY GOD.
CRIMINALS REFUSE TO DISARM!
You realize how much this kills your argument right?

I see you didn't actually answer why some states have inflated gun deaths compared to their populations. Strange, that.

And you never answer why the "fact that England has less gun deaths than the US" has nothing to do with banning guns, as the per capita ratios were much farther apart in 1197 than they are now.

At 6/3/07 04:13 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: I see no reason to believe that (a.) a rampaging government would come into power here and (b.) that any action we as individuals take would stop it (it only worked in "Red Dawn"). Not to say that b means that you shouldn't fight an oppressive government, but once a dictatorship is in power, well, yeah.

A) The government would NEVER try to harm us.
b) If they did, what could we do to stop them? (Especially now, that they nicely have all our guns.)

Again, the gun control lobby comes to two points.

1) Why do you need a rocket launcher to kill raccoons?
2) What good is that pistol going to do against a tank?

At 6/3/07 04:43 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: 30,000 gun deaths per year.

And in my link 16000 of them are suicides. That deflates your number. Not even talking about the remainer...your number is cut in half.

At 6/6/07 10:11 AM, D2Kvirus wrote: Please, most of Europe has a grudge against each other (or, in England's case, we just hate everyone:

Who cares?

Ah, back to throwing around claims of "ignorance" again, are we? Typical tactic of a hateful sack of gibberish...

(Fuck I have nothing.) "You sir...hate black people!" (Yea that got him. Heh.)


Now, you say places have different culture, which I said already doesn't stand up as a blanket explanation, because that's simplicism to the Nth degree. You reel off a list of reasons (more violent, poorer, ethnic lines etc.), yet Alabama, a poor, gun-toting, intolerant state is in 20th position, while South Carolina is in 19th - but they prefer to tie blacks to the back of their pick up truckand drag them to death there, so that may have affected their statistics somewhat.

Really? Considering there has been ONE such death (to my knowledge) in the US in my lifetime, I'd like to see your stats that S.C. does that ALL THE TIME. You bigot.


Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-07-03 06:52:22 Reply

At 6/7/07 05:42 PM, D2Kvirus wrote: I see you conveniently forgot the James Byrd case of 1999, where that exact course of events happened?

Which happened in Texas. Which is not one of the states you mentioned.
Try again.

So, apart from the fact the people of South Carolina aren't a race, they're a section of whi8te anglo saxon males that happen to live in America so the only people that would try and play the race card are:
a.) South carolina residents
b.) Idiotic

Except (again, James Byrd was killed in Texas.
That makes you:
a) stupid
b) illiterate
c) too eager to make a point to read the state in which your example happened in

If you're going to paint South Carolinans as racist, it might help if you used an example from their state.

Oh, and on a side note. Two of his killers have been sentenced to death, the third will spend the rest of his life in prison. DAMN THOSE TEXAS...oops...SUTHERN CARIOLINAISN RASCICSTS!!!


Your point was...ah fuck it, you never had one.

Nor do you fool.


Joe Biden is not change. He's more of the same.

trevor-williams
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-07-03 09:26:01 Reply

It dosent work. I know people who have been killed because they dident own a gun.

CMon5
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-07-03 18:30:32 Reply

You're obviously an idiot. In Norway gun control is very strict. The number of deaths by gunshots compared to population is waaaay less than in the US.

But maybe you're right? Maybe it's just all americans that are totally insane and are more prone to shooting each other than we are?

BTW, I think not.
SmilezRoyale
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-07-03 22:00:04 Reply

But maybe you're right? Maybe it's just all americans that are totally insane and are more prone to shooting each other than we are?

Yes, they are.

Do you have problems where Races are tightly packed amoungst themselfs and amoungst eachother in tight slums where gun acess is easy, and they hate eachother?


On a moving train there are no centrists, only radicals and reactionaries.

K-RadPie
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-07-03 22:28:46 Reply

At 6/6/07 11:15 PM, GothKid32 wrote:
Guns dont kill people, people kill people.

No, bullets kill people.