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Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

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Generalissimus
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 3rd, 2007 @ 02:49 PM Reply

I agree, if the government were to ban all firearms, the illicit trade of illegal firearms would still supply criminals. As for accidental firearms deaths, nearly all could have been prevented because they caused by misuse and poor handling.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 3rd, 2007 @ 03:14 PM Reply

At 5/3/07 07:06 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:
He is saying it is more likely for the gun to be used to commit suicide or kill a friend/family member

than it is

to be used to kill/injure a criminal.

And you find that believable?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 3rd, 2007 @ 03:35 PM Reply

If someone is committed to hurting themself or another person, they will go through with their plan even if they don't have a firearm. Yes, people have hurt themselves and others with a firearm, but even if they hadn't had the weapon doesn't mean they wouldn't have done anything anyways.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 3rd, 2007 @ 04:28 PM Reply

At 5/2/07 10:30 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
At 5/2/07 09:35 PM, Korriken wrote:
if we can't stop drug smuggling, how will we stop gun smuggling?
With sensible gun laws, duh.

Gosh, did anyone else know that 12,000 people die EVERY year in America, due to GUNS ALONE?!

I know, it's outrageous. But look at America where guns are a problem.

;
With that many Americans killing each other every year at home.
You would think the soldiers killed in Iraq wouldn't even been noticed !
Look at these numbers.

On March 20 2003 america & it's allies invaded Iraq.

3355 have died as of May 1st 2007
Approximately 44,000 Americans have died at home in the U.S. of gun related violence.
Every time an American is killed in the Iraq conflict, 13 Americans are killed by gun violence at home.
Your safer over in Iraq than you are in your own country.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 3rd, 2007 @ 04:47 PM Reply

See? The numbers prove it!


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 3rd, 2007 @ 05:05 PM Reply

At 5/3/07 04:47 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: See? The numbers prove it!

I agree.

If it wasn't for guns, then the 300 Spartans at the battle of Thermopolye would have never died.

We must end this violence.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 3rd, 2007 @ 08:26 PM Reply

At 5/3/07 05:05 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:
At 5/3/07 04:47 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: See? The numbers prove it!
I agree.

If it wasn't for guns, then the 300 Spartans at the battle of Thermopolye would have never died.

We must end this violence.

But if they didn't die, the rest of Greece wouldn't be inspired to rise up and overcome the Persians!


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 3rd, 2007 @ 11:23 PM Reply

At 5/3/07 04:28 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
Your safer over in Iraq than you are in your own country.

well we also got what, maybe 27,000 troops in iraq ALL OF WHICH are armed to the teeth with military grade weaponry, VS 300 million people....
7500

of 27,000 you get 3,355 thats right around 12%. not bad for a war zone.

then of 300,000,000 you get 40,000. thats right around 11%

I would have to say iraq is more dangerous. better luck next time.

Also you have to factor in weapons. if the soldiers were unarmed it would be a slaughter of our soldiers.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 12:10 AM Reply

I hate the arguement that we should legalize guns completely becasue people will get them anyways illegal. Sure they will get them illegally but shoudl we make it easy for them? I do nto think we shoudl ban guns, but we shoudl put restrictions on them. Does anyone really need an automatic assault weapon? License gun owners to make sure people ateast know how to properly use and store them and other safety issues.

In Canada we have two classes of weapons license, long guns (rifles and shot guns) and restricted weapons (hand guns). You need to take a course specialized for your class and apply for a license from the RCMP (our version of the FBI).


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 12:13 AM Reply

At 5/3/07 08:26 PM, Dr-Worm wrote: But if they didn't die, the rest of Greece wouldn't be inspired to rise up and overcome the Persians!

and we would never have a movie about really angry, speedo-clad men.

Sparta; really pissed, all the fucking time.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 01:10 AM Reply

At 5/4/07 12:10 AM, JoS wrote: I hate the arguement that we should legalize guns completely becasue people will get them anyways illegal.

Who's been arguing that? I thought I've kept up enough with this thread, but are you looking at a certain post, or are you just making a general observation to the best of your abilities?

Sure they will get them illegally but shoudl we make it easy for them?

"Them" has been defined already. Who are you wanting to "hard it hard" for?

I do nto think we shoudl ban guns, but we shoudl put restrictions on them. Does anyone really need an automatic assault weapon?

Do you honestly believe "anyone" can obtain a legal fully-automatic "assault" weapon? If not, why the fuck don't you use more careful terminology?

License gun owners to make sure people ateast know how to properly use and store them and other safety issues.

Gun safety classes are required for ownership < 18, 21 in some areas.

Who would oversee this licensure? Would it be the same as the "permit to demonstrate" licenses handed out whenever someone wants to exercise their right to free speech?


In Canada we have two classes of weapons license, long guns (rifles and shot guns) and restricted weapons (hand guns). You need to take a course specialized for your class and apply for a license from the RCMP (our version of the FBI).

Cool.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 09:06 AM Reply

At 5/4/07 12:10 AM, JoS wrote: I hate the arguement that we should legalize guns completely becasue people will get them anyways illegal.

why? does it kill your arguement completely?

Sure they will get them illegally but shoudl we make it easy for them?

well, let's see. go out on the streets, find a guy selling drugs and see if you can get a hit of heroin. I'll tell you now, that's not hard at all. I'm not a heroin addict, but if you know where to look you can obtain anything you want, short of a rocket launcher.

I do nto think we shoudl ban guns, but we shoudl put restrictions on them.

That's step 1....

Does anyone really need an automatic assault weapon?

It's been said time and time again, crimes aren't committed with automatic assault weapons. they are WAY too expensive for the average criminal to obtain, seeing as they are WELL over $10,000-$30,000 each, and are military grade equipment that is not available to the general public. stop using this lame arguement.

License gun owners to make sure people ateast know how to properly use and store them and other safety issues.

just because they KNOW how don't mean they WILL, the same as people today who don't have a license that do or do not store and handle their guns properly.


In Canada we have two classes of weapons license, long guns (rifles and shot guns) and restricted weapons (hand guns). You need to take a course specialized for your class and apply for a license from the RCMP (our version of the FBI).

good for you, in time the people will call for banning handguns and restricting long guns, then banning long guns.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 10:12 AM Reply

I have not been in here for a while so I may have missed something. I do remember some people argueing though that if we make guns illegal or difficult to get, people who really want them for illegal purposes (such as Cho) will get them anyways, and banning them only takes them away from law abiding people. While this arguement has some merit it is still ridiculas. We should not make it as easy as buying milk. many guns that are illegal were purchused legally in other states with looser gun laws.

I firmly believe that people should be able to buy a gun if they want one, but they should have a process to go through. A gun license is a good way to go. If you are convicted of a crime or are deemed a threat to yourself and others your license is simply revoked and you can no longer legally buy a gun. Its alot more work, expensive and dangerous to buy a gun illegally than legally.

Have the license program overseen by some federal authority, perhaps the FBI or the ATF. You do a background check to make sure you are not a convicted criminal, a check that you have not been put into a mental institution or deemed a danger to yourself or others and take some sort of safety course and you get your license.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 10:56 AM Reply

Well for those of you who do not know, there is a background check system already in place in America. I recently purchased a firearm and was required to submit to the check. I am a firm believer in allowing citizens to own firearms, but unfortunately our background check isn't foolproof. With all the confidentiality laws in our country, it is hard to allow the important information to be shared with other people who need it. For example, a person with a mental illness that isn't outwardly obvious would be able to purchase a firearm because the medical personnel cannot share his medical information with the government without permission, thus allowing an unfit person to obtain a firearm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that is the case with the recent Virginia Tech shooting.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 06:41 PM Reply

At 5/3/07 11:23 PM, Korriken wrote: then of 300,000,000 you get 40,000. thats right around 11%

That's some sexy math right there.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 06:49 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 06:41 PM, Elfer wrote:
At 5/3/07 11:23 PM, Korriken wrote: then of 300,000,000 you get 40,000. thats right around 11%
That's some sexy math right there.

*gets out calculator*

329,600,00 off. Yep, sexy maths indeed.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 07:44 PM Reply

I would like to echo JoS's statement about having more federal authority involved. If the federal government were to strengthen the Brady Bill, reeintroduce the AWB of 1994 (with stricter provisions - i.e. no grandfathering except for obvious, unfirable antiques unless in a museum) and generally enforce the existing laws to a greater degree. Also, making gun sellers and manufacturers liable for crimes will help send the message that restricting gun sales is the gov'ts goal.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 07:52 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 07:44 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: I would like to echo JoS's statement about having more federal authority involved. If the federal government were to strengthen the Brady Bill,

another step in the direction of a ban.

reeintroduce the AWB of 1994 (with stricter provisions - i.e. no grandfathering except for obvious, unfirable antiques unless in a museum)

and how many times do assault weapons get used in crimes? hmm?

and generally enforce the existing laws to a greater degree. Also, making gun sellers and manufacturers liable for crimes

this is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. That is like saying that Mcdonalds should have to pay for liposuction because it turns its customers into lardasses, or that tobacco companies should have to pay to have its customers treated for cancer. There is no credible way to tell if a gun will ever be used in a crime or not. To say there is a way is a downright lie.

will help send the message that restricting gun sales is the gov'ts goal.

don't you mean YOUR goal? the government's job is to uphold the constitution, not distort it to fit the views of scaremongers and gunsnatchers.

Power to the people! (ooh catchphrase!)


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 07:57 PM Reply

The Constitution empowers the Congress to restrict gun ownership. The 2nd amendment is about the MILITIA, the STATE organized militia- there is no mention of private ownership.

Anyway:

Strengthening the AWB could prevent crime. Assault weapons are involved in crimes. Why else would police organizations (Law Enforcement Steering Committee, the Fraternal Order of Police, the National Sheriffs' Association, the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Major City Chiefs Association, the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, the National Association of Police Organizations, the Hispanic American Police Command Officers Association, the National Black Police Association, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, the Police Executive Research Forum, and the Police Foundation) support such a ban?

Here are some examples of crimes where assault weapons were used:
The Stockton Schoolyard massacre, the CIA headquarters shootings, Waco, the North Hollywood shootout (with the bank robbers, that one)...the list goes on and on.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 08:43 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 07:57 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: The Constitution empowers the Congress to restrict gun ownership. The 2nd amendment is about the MILITIA, the STATE organized militia- there is no mention of private ownership.

Anyway:

Strengthening the AWB could prevent crime. Assault weapons are involved in crimes. Why else would police organizations (Law Enforcement Steering Committee, the Fraternal Order of Police, the National Sheriffs' Association, the International Association of Chiefs of Police, the Major City Chiefs Association, the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, the National Association of Police Organizations, the Hispanic American Police Command Officers Association, the National Black Police Association, the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, the Police Executive Research Forum, and the Police Foundation) support such a ban?

Here are some examples of crimes where assault weapons were used:
The Stockton Schoolyard massacre,

ahh yes, a semi auto AK-47, i remember reading on this one. I hate to tell you this, but a normal hunting rifle has a better killing potential than an AK-47. AK-47 uses a 7.62mm bullet. thats not a very big bullet, nor is it overly effective at killing, My .410 has hollow point slugs that do a better job at killing. Of course it's a single shot...

He would have done a MUCH MUCH better job at killing, had he used a hunting rifle, and took his time to aim at the victims' vitals.

the CIA headquarters shootings,
another AK....

Waco,
that was one messed up incident... I'm still not sure what to make of it. Also, I can't find any info on the weapons that were used...

the North Hollywood shootout (with the bank robbers, that one)...
hey guess what, more semi auto AKs!

the list goes on and on.
I bet most if not all use the hardly effective AK-47 single auto too.

the AK is overrated, as a gun with 9mm hollow point bullets hits harder, kills better, and is much cheape. If they were packing around M4A1s... then i would be scared.

the only REAL selling point to an AK-47 is easy maintenance.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 08:45 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 07:57 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: The Constitution empowers the Congress to restrict gun ownership. The 2nd amendment is about the MILITIA, the STATE organized militia- there is no mention of private ownership.

Whenever the Constitution explicitly states "The People" it is ALWAYS talking about "private ownership".

Infringed is a cool word. You should loko it up.

The AWB simply banned guns that looked a certain way, not what their function actually was. It was a silly feel-good that asshole bourgosueiwieaoui use to look like they actually have an idea what the AWB did.

Yeah.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 08:50 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 08:43 PM, Korriken wrote: the AK is overrated, as a gun with 9mm hollow point bullets hits harder, kills better, and is much cheape.

Cheaper, yes. More "effective"? Not exactly. A rifle cartridge will always have more potential power than a pistol round, even a hollowpoint. While effective against soft targets, hollowpoints lack the density to penetrate harder materials like cars and buildings.

If they were packing around M4A1s... then i would be scared.

Small bullet + high velocity + high impact rounds = scary indeed. That's why our soldiers use them.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 08:56 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 07:57 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:

well crap hit the post button before finishing.

The Constitution empowers the Congress to restrict gun ownership. The 2nd amendment is about the MILITIA, the STATE organized militia- there is no mention of private ownership.

the PEOPLE are the MILITIA! I'm all for banning Heavy machine guns and mortars, but to say that I can't have a gun, despite being a citizen of my state, which makes me a member of the state militia, to be called upon in a time of war to defend my country if we get invaded, is stupid.


Anyway:

Strengthening the AWB could prevent crime.

no it won't. They'll just resort to using other guns. and if you ban guns they will resort to non gun weapons or homemade guns. guess what? take a heavy steel pipe, drill a hole in the side of the pipe near one end, cap it off, carefully weld another piece of pipe for a handle, wrap a bit of insulation where you want to put your other hand to steady it, then wrap the insulation with some cloth or leather to hold it in place, stick a fuse in the hole on the side of the pipe, pack some gunpowder in, stuff in some BBs or a sabot that will fit in the pipe, stick a bit of wadded paper to hold the BBs in place, find a victim, light the fuse, aim it at them, and KABOOM. instant victim. AWB did a GREAT job in preventing that one!

Assault weapons are involved in crimes.
as are all other weapons, tools, and even bare hands. you can kill someone with a strip of cloth if you strangle them with it. AWB did a GREAT job of preventing that one!

Why else would police organizations support such a ban?
well, a full auto assault rifle I can understand, but a semi auto assault rifle has about the same power as a regular semi auto hunting rifle. some 'assault' rifles have less power than a hunting rifle.

the main killing point of a semi auto 'assault rifle' is the large magazine capacity. other than that, its a regular gun. It's also VERY expensive.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 09:01 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 08:50 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
Cheaper, yes. More "effective"? Not exactly. A rifle cartridge will always have more potential power than a pistol round, even a hollowpoint. While effective against soft targets, hollowpoints lack the density to penetrate harder materials like cars and buildings.

well, VS a car or a building yeah, but shooting unarmored people out in the open, you want tissue destruction, not penetration. blowing a 6 inch hole in a person's chest > blowing a 3 inch hole in a person's chest.

if someone is driving in a car, yeah you will want to be able to puncture their car door to hit them. However, like the VA tech shooting, Cho was face to face with people who had no protection, his best weapon would have been a hollow point bullet because of its expansion upon impact. If Cho was shooting people through a locked door, he would have been better off using an AK.

so it really depends on what you are trying to accomplish really.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 09:11 PM Reply

Oh, look. While perusing CNN.com just now, I found something unsurprising about the NRA:

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- The National Rifle Association is urging the Bush administration to withdraw its support of a bill that would prohibit suspected terrorists from buying firearms..."

Hmm...

Now that's just dumb.

About the AWB.

The AWB of 1994 banned, by name, the manufacture of 19 different guns, as well as copies or duplicates of them. In 1998, Clinton added nearly a hundred other weapons. This is a list of the weapons that were originally banned

Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
Colt AR-15;
Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
SWD M-10; M-11; M-11/9, and M-12;
Steyr AUG;
INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9, AND TEC-22;
Revolving cylinder shotguns such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12.

Also, weapons were not permitted to have more than one of these features:

Rifles:

Folding/telescoping stock
Protruding pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Threaded muzzle or flash suppressor
Grenade launcher mount (though a grenade launcher would have restrictions on it too...)

Pistols:

Magazine outside grip
Threaded muzzle
Barrel shroud
Unloaded weight of 50 ounces or more
Semi-automatic version of a fully automatic weapon
Shotguns

Folding/telescoping stock
Protruding pistol grip
Detachable magazine capacity
Fixed magazine capacity greater than 5 rounds

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 09:28 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 09:11 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Rifles:
Bayonet mount

BAYONETS!!!!


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 09:30 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 09:28 PM, SolInvictus wrote:
At 5/4/07 09:11 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Rifles:
Bayonet mount
BAYONETS!!!!

"You can't have that!"

Yeah, anything cosmetic on a gun. Whoopdefuckin do Mr Clinton, thanks for outlawing tactical gear.

So yeah, how many people were arrested under the AWB?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 09:33 PM Reply

In a letter this week to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, NRA executive director Chris Cox said the bill, offered last week by Sen. Frank Lautenberg (news, bio, voting record), D-N.J., "would allow arbitrary denial of Second Amendment rights based on mere 'suspicions' of a terrorist threat."

"As many of our friends in law enforcement have rightly pointed out, the word 'suspect' has no legal meaning, particularly when it comes to denying constitutional liberties," Cox wrote.

Is Gonzales familiar with ye olde constitution?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 10:09 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 09:30 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
BAYONETS!!!!
"You can't have that!"

could i have a stick with a bayonet on it?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) May. 4th, 2007 @ 10:12 PM Reply

At 5/4/07 07:52 PM, Korriken wrote: another step in the direction of a ban.

Slippery slope arguments like are invalid unless you can actually show that it is likely that an all-out ban will come as a result of any step towards more control.