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Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

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Korriken
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 21:01:00 Reply

At 5/4/07 08:50 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
Cheaper, yes. More "effective"? Not exactly. A rifle cartridge will always have more potential power than a pistol round, even a hollowpoint. While effective against soft targets, hollowpoints lack the density to penetrate harder materials like cars and buildings.

well, VS a car or a building yeah, but shooting unarmored people out in the open, you want tissue destruction, not penetration. blowing a 6 inch hole in a person's chest > blowing a 3 inch hole in a person's chest.

if someone is driving in a car, yeah you will want to be able to puncture their car door to hit them. However, like the VA tech shooting, Cho was face to face with people who had no protection, his best weapon would have been a hollow point bullet because of its expansion upon impact. If Cho was shooting people through a locked door, he would have been better off using an AK.

so it really depends on what you are trying to accomplish really.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 21:11:02 Reply

Oh, look. While perusing CNN.com just now, I found something unsurprising about the NRA:

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- The National Rifle Association is urging the Bush administration to withdraw its support of a bill that would prohibit suspected terrorists from buying firearms..."

Hmm...

Now that's just dumb.

About the AWB.

The AWB of 1994 banned, by name, the manufacture of 19 different guns, as well as copies or duplicates of them. In 1998, Clinton added nearly a hundred other weapons. This is a list of the weapons that were originally banned

Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
Colt AR-15;
Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
SWD M-10; M-11; M-11/9, and M-12;
Steyr AUG;
INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9, AND TEC-22;
Revolving cylinder shotguns such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12.

Also, weapons were not permitted to have more than one of these features:

Rifles:

Folding/telescoping stock
Protruding pistol grip
Bayonet mount
Threaded muzzle or flash suppressor
Grenade launcher mount (though a grenade launcher would have restrictions on it too...)

Pistols:

Magazine outside grip
Threaded muzzle
Barrel shroud
Unloaded weight of 50 ounces or more
Semi-automatic version of a fully automatic weapon
Shotguns

Folding/telescoping stock
Protruding pistol grip
Detachable magazine capacity
Fixed magazine capacity greater than 5 rounds

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 21:28:11 Reply

At 5/4/07 09:11 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Rifles:
Bayonet mount

BAYONETS!!!!


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 22:09:56 Reply

At 5/4/07 09:30 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
BAYONETS!!!!
"You can't have that!"

could i have a stick with a bayonet on it?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 22:12:46 Reply

At 5/4/07 07:52 PM, Korriken wrote: another step in the direction of a ban.

Slippery slope arguments like are invalid unless you can actually show that it is likely that an all-out ban will come as a result of any step towards more control.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-04 22:41:47 Reply

Hmmm...

I can't buy a gun at a pawn shop... I... buy one off the black market... I can't get one off the black market... I... steal it.

Gun control =/= Crazies or criminals can't get guns.

Sorry people, your arguments fail time and time again.

Then we've got the second amendment which just totally screws you, so... yeah.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-05 08:58:01 Reply

At 5/4/07 10:12 PM, Elfer wrote:
Slippery slope arguments like are invalid unless you can actually show that it is likely that an all-out ban will come as a result of any step towards more control.

that easy to figure out.

you place some restrictions, then see that gun crime is still happening, then its "omgz! we need to tighten the laws some more!" then even more restrictions are tossed in. every time a large scale attack like a school shooting happens, the gunsnatchers will want to ban the 'most dangerous guns available' when they get banned then the guns below them become the 'most dangerous guns available'. the cycle continues until there are no guns left. or we could just pull a UK and ban them outright.

It's just like capital punishment. at one time burning at the stake and stoning were considered acceptable punishments if they fit the crime. then it was decided that they were too 'cruel'. Then it was limited to hangings, and firing squads, later electrocution, gas chamber, and lethal injection. later gas chamber, and electrocution were done away with for 'being too cruel' then hanging, then firing squad...or was it the other way around... anyway, and now people are calling to stop ALL executions because 'they are too cruel' the most 'cruel' punishments are the ones people want to do away with. after executions, then what? shorter prison sentences? is a 35 year sentence 'cruel' because you will be locked up for half of your life? eventually people will see it that way.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-05 10:39:47 Reply

At 5/5/07 08:58 AM, Korriken wrote:
At 5/4/07 10:12 PM, Elfer wrote:
Slippery slope arguments like are invalid unless you can actually show that it is likely that an all-out ban will come as a result of any step towards more control.
that easy to figure out.

you place some restrictions, then see that gun crime is still happening, then its "omgz! we need to tighten the laws some more!" then even more restrictions are tossed in.

I said "show that it is likely" not "make speculations that some unreasonable people will want more gun control"

You're assuming a false dilemma of no gun control vs. complete prohibition. That's the problem with your argument.

You ignore a third possibility of having some gun control and ignoring what stupid anti-gun nuts have to say.

HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-05 10:46:41 Reply

Gun control doesn't mean that people without criminal histories or a history of mental instability cannot get guns. It's designed to prevent criminals (and those with criminal intent) and the incompetent from obtaining guns...

It was one legal loophole that could have prevented Cho Seung Hui from getting a gun. If those kinds of loopholes were closed, think about the lives that could have been saved.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-05 13:11:46 Reply

At 5/2/07 12:44 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
You shouldn't be suck a dick, you're arguments aren't nearly strong enough to warrant such prickish comments.

Sure they are - it's just people whop don't like them are content to drag it into random directions to dilute it - which is what I define as "dickish." And, hey, I give people plenty of chances to stop being dicks themselves before letting rip at them.

Frustration and irritation, such a potent combination!

Besides, if you're going to quote a dictionary, at least do it in a manner that backs up your argument, not the other guy's.


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morefngdbs
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-05 13:52:16 Reply

At 5/3/07 11:23 PM, Korriken wrote:
At 5/3/07 04:28 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
Your safer over in Iraq than you are in your own country.
well we also got what, maybe 27,000 troops in iraq ALL OF WHICH are armed to the teeth with military grade weaponry, VS 300 million people....
7500

of 27,000 you get 3,355 thats right around 12%. not bad for a war zone.

then of 300,000,000 you get 40,000. thats right around 11%

Sorry dude the figure I seen on the news today was approx. 150,000 service personel.
Plus another 100,000 'Contractors'- basicly mercinaries.
The casualties of 'Contractors is not officially known.
But estimates put that at 800 killed.

So redo your math, on a quarter million armed people, against 300 million, your safer in Bagdad.
A war zone is the only place you should be alowed to posses a hand gun.
Need a gun for self protection in your home ! ! ! ! Go buy a shotgun. get some SSG magnum shells. Your gonna blow a hole in someone invading your home the size of a dinner plate.
You shoot them in the leg because you don't want to kill him/her.
Your going to blow their fu@#%*g leg right off.
Also remember a shotgun slug from a 12 guage is a massive projectile.
Only problem, It is harder to sneak around with a rifle or shotgun than it is to conceal a handgun.
If you can't easily hide your gun, it makes it harder to sneak up & or run around a school shooting people.

So as I posted way back in this thread, make owning possesing handguns completely illegal.
Allow the ownership of rifles & shotguns.
Your then ready to defend your country, & protect your home.
As many others have noted here , a rifle has way more power than any handgun.
I've got a 30.06 to back up my 12 gage 3in. mag shotgun.


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Korriken
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-05 17:19:07 Reply

At 5/5/07 01:52 PM, morefngdbs wrote:
So redo your math, on a quarter million armed people, against 300 million, your safer in Bagdad.

ok then, move to baghdad, with no weapons, and live among them and see just how long you last. you wouldn't last 1 day before someone killed you. the only reason the death count isn't higher is because EVERY one of our people in iraq, except for workers, who are guarded by military personnel who ARE. which can be turned on you by saying that more guns can deter crime.

A war zone is the only place you should be alowed to posses a hand gun.

handguns won't do you much good in a war zone.

Need a gun for self protection in your home ! ! ! ! Go buy a shotgun. get some SSG magnum shells. Your gonna blow a hole in someone invading your home the size of a dinner plate.

it also sprays pellets, if some miss the target, it might hit other things, including your relatives. I prefer a single, low calibre bullet for home defense.

Also remember a shotgun slug from a 12 guage is a massive projectile.

no shit, thanks for pointing out that my 12 gauge shotgun's slugs are massive, like I can't already see that!

If you can't easily hide your gun, it makes it harder to sneak up & or run around a school shooting people.

thats simple, put gun passenger seat of a vehicle, drive into the school, get out, unleash hell.

As many others have noted here , a rifle has way more power than any handgun.

which makes rifles and shotguns WAY more dangerous than a handgun.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-05 20:37:24 Reply

At 5/5/07 10:46 AM, HighlyIllogical wrote: It was one legal loophole that could have prevented Cho Seung Hui from getting a gun. If those kinds of loopholes were closed, think about the lives that could have been saved.

It was actually a liberal measure that ensured the loony was able to obtain a firearm unabated.....You know, keeping a person's psychologic theropy confidential and from public knowledge. The whole right to privacy and whatnot.


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-05 22:37:41 Reply

I'm getting sick of my own thread... it's a shame.


Yay, Obama won. Let's thank his supporters:
-The compliant mainstream media for their pro-Obama propaganda.
-Black Panthers for their intimidation of voters.

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Korriken
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-05 22:59:00 Reply

At 5/5/07 10:37 PM, cellardoor6 wrote: I'm getting sick of my own thread... it's a shame.

I know the feeling all too well.


I'm not crazy, everyone else is.

HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-05 23:46:08 Reply

At 5/5/07 08:37 PM, JakeHero wrote:
It was actually a liberal measure that ensured the loony was able to obtain a firearm unabated.....You know, keeping a person's psychologic theropy confidential and from public knowledge. The whole right to privacy and whatnot.

That doesn't make any sense. His right to privacy (if you want to even talk about that) wouldn't have been violated if he were not allowed to purchase a gun. Seung Hui Cho was brought to COURT because of his "issues." He was adjured to be incompetent and a danger to himself and others...

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 10:43:31 Reply

At 5/5/07 05:19 PM, Korriken wrote: thats simple, put gun passenger seat of a vehicle, drive into the school, get out, unleash hell.

; You so conveniently leave out that with hand guns people are walking the streets & your not aware they may have a gun. with a rifle or shot gun your not going to be wandering around and no one notice.
Besides in the case of Cho, did he have a vehicle?

As many others have noted here , a rifle has way more power than any handgun.
which makes rifles and shotguns WAY more dangerous than a handgun.

I believe a rifle or shotgun is more powerful than a handgun, but all of them are very dangerous.
Even if all guns were outlawed & amunition no longer available, people would still kill each other even if they had to say make a bomb out of fertilizer & a petroleum product.
But semi/ automatic hand guns are only good for one purpose, to allow a massive amount of fire power, that is easily hidden, so you can kill people.
Getting rid of them won't stop the killing, it might slow it down some.
I mean god , 12,000 people killed by them a year, that's obscene.


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HighlyIllogical
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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 12:43:10 Reply

Whether we stop it or slow it down, reducing gun deaths is imperative. Gun control may not be able to prevent all the deaths, but if it can prevent even one, it's 100% worth it, IMHO.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 15:06:49 Reply

At 5/5/07 11:46 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: That doesn't make any sense.

I was being vague.

His right to privacy (if you want to even talk about that) wouldn't have been violated if he were not allowed to purchase a gun.

The kid had to get theropy before he went on the rampage. The person who sold Cho the gun did not even have knowledge of him having to attend meeting dealing with his mental instability.

Seung Hui Cho was brought to COURT because of his "issues." He was adjured to be incompetent and a danger to himself and others...

Right, the reason he was able to obtain a gun was because of the vaunted cry of "Right to privacy." No one other than the psychologist and the court that setenced him to theropy knew how unstable he was. Now, which political demograph so adamantly espouses this principle for psychopaths and sexual offenders? You know, that group that says its fascism for the state/federal government to release such information for the public forum?


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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 15:10:12 Reply

At 5/6/07 12:43 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: Whether we stop it or slow it down, reducing gun deaths is imperative. Gun control may not be able to prevent all the deaths, but if it can prevent even one, it's 100% worth it, IMHO.

Gun control would cause deaths you idiot.

Scenario: A guy comes into your house with a gun that he bought off the black market or stole, and because you have nothing to protect yourself with (a firearm) he shoots you, your wife, and your children in the head, and makes off with everything in your home.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 16:02:11 Reply

At 5/6/07 03:06 PM, JakeHero wrote:
Right, the reason he was able to obtain a gun was because of the vaunted cry of "Right to privacy."

Uh, no.

It didn't show up on his background check because of a LEGAL LOOPHOLE...

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 16:05:47 Reply

At 5/6/07 03:23 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
He's not afraid of death, he's afraid of guns.

Now there is some brilliant psychoanalysis...

"Ooh, because he hates guns, he must be afraid of them!"

Yes. I am afraid of them and afraid of the consequences of the role they play in our misguided society.

That's the difference, death has nothing to do with it but his irrational fear of guns perpetuated by parents of similar meek stature, who were never exposed to guns, and therefore fearful of them in every manner.

How interesting. And you would know this, how?

Because I have numbers to support my claim. Where are yours?

It's the same with rednecks who fear homosexuals or supremicists that fear minorities.

You're equating my numerically supported support for the regulation of guns with the irrational fears of racists and homophobes?

Bra-VO.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 16:17:00 Reply

Once again, you attack me, not my views.

I will continue discussing your views in a critical manner.

"The risk of being killed by a firearm in the US is higher than in any other Western nation." --
BBC Article

Here's a little graph for you to look at.

Gun Control Does Not Work (proof)

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 16:26:28 Reply

At 5/6/07 04:20 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: Your view that the legal loophole somehow hovers over gun dealers is ludicrous.

Hovers over? As in allows people who shouldn't be allowed to get a gun to purchase a gun?

Hell, Virginia just closed that legal loophole...You'd think it was important or something...

You want to use Cho's case as a tool to "prove" restrictions aren't heavy enough as they are. That's an agenda, even though you believe linking to a statistic makes it "right".

As a tool, no. As an example, yes, by all means, YES. Because that's what it is! Cho killed 32 people and himself with GUNS even though he shouldn't have been allowed to buy them as he was adjudicated to be a danger to himself and others!

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 16:32:30 Reply

At 5/6/07 04:05 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote:
At 5/6/07 03:23 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:
He's not afraid of death, he's afraid of guns.
Now there is some brilliant psychoanalysis...

Well, I think so.

"Ooh, because he hates guns, he must be afraid of them!"

Yes. I am afraid of them and afraid of the consequences of the role they play in our misguided society.

Yes, our founding fathers were SO misguided when they realised that the pros of civilian gun possession outweighed the cons.

That's the difference, death has nothing to do with it but his irrational fear of guns perpetuated by parents of similar meek stature, who were never exposed to guns, and therefore fearful of them in every manner.
How interesting. And you would know this, how?

Logical conclusions are derived from past experiences and knowledge. That's how he would know that.

Because I have numbers to support my claim. Where are yours?

I don't know about him, but here's mine.

It's the same with rednecks who fear homosexuals or supremicists that fear minorities.
You're equating my numerically supported support for the regulation of guns with the irrational fears of racists and homophobes?

Quite a logical comparison, actually. People of every kind fear what they do not understand, or have never experienced. You're a prime example. Because you do not understand the good role that guns play in our society, you fear, and can not accept them, it's that simple.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 16:33:28 Reply

I don't see how this is relevant...

Guns cause more problems than they prevent. End of story.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 16:34:54 Reply

At 5/6/07 04:33 PM, HighlyIllogical wrote: I don't see how this is relevant...

Guns cause more problems than they prevent. End of story.

Actually, it's quite the opposite.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 16:43:43 Reply

At 5/6/07 04:34 PM, Dre-Man wrote:
Actually, it's quite the opposite.

Oh, really?

Numbers, please.

I have some, if you'd care to look:

"In 2005, there were only 143 justifiable homicides by private citizens using handguns in
the United States." -- FBI Uniform Crime Report, 2005, Expanded Homicide Table 14,
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/expand ed_information/murder_homicide.html.

So much for handguns being useful for self defense...

"For every time a gun is used in a home in a legally-justifiable shooting there are 22
criminal, unintentional, and suicide-related shootings." -- Kellermann AL, Somes G, Rivara FP, et al. "Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the
home." The Journal of Trauma. 1998;45:263-267.

Yeah, the benefits of guns *really* outweigh the problems they cause.

At 5/6/07 04:35 PM, LazyDrunk wrote

You think first:
He shouldn't have been allowed to buy a gun.

Any rational person would think that. How could YOU not think that?

You think second:
Why?

Asking why is the rational follow-up.

You think third:
He was insane.

That's proven beyond a doubt -- he killed 32 people AND committed suicide.

You think fourth:
Why?

Again, that's only logical.

You think fifth:
A pyschiatrist diagnosed him as such, and ordered him to attend therapy.

Yes, a PSYCHIATRIST said that he was mentally ill. The judge agreed. Boom. He's crazy. As if we don't know that in the aftermath.

You think sixth.
GUNS ARE TEH PROBLEM1!!!!!!

If he hadn't had guns, he wouldn't have been able to kill 32 people with such ease.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 16:49:38 Reply

At 5/6/07 04:31 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

He's not afraid of death, he's afraid of guns.
Prove me wrong.

Anyone who doesn't have a healthy fear of firearms is either incredibly stupid or insane.


Tis better to sit in silence and be presumed a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.

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Response to Gun Control Does Not Work (proof) 2007-05-06 16:59:01 Reply

At 5/6/07 04:49 PM, Ravariel wrote:
At 5/6/07 04:31 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

He's not afraid of death, he's afraid of guns.
Anyone who doesn't have a healthy fear of firearms is either incredibly stupid or insane.

"Healthy fear."

Nice twist.