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While like I feel like an idiot for even propogating this discussion, I'll state this.

If Manson was let out of prison, he would do something horrible again. Even HE knows this. No matter how bad-ass you want to seem, Mr. cannibal, I highly doubt you'd be singing the praises of Manson if he decided to kill someone in your family. Or your friends. Someone you love.

Your reasoning is fine for someone that isn't so criminally insane. I could see an argument for putting Manson in a maximum security psychiatric hospital. But if he were let free completely, he'd wreak havoc on society.

Is that something you'd want on your shoulders? Knowing you advocated that?

Oh, right. I forgot. You want people to think you're scary or whatnot. You'll say yes, I suspect.

At 6/14/03 07:40 AM, House_Of_Leaves wrote: While like I feel like an idiot for even propogating this discussion, I'll state this.

SO you admit you are an idiot then???

If Manson was let out of prison, he would do something horrible again. Even HE knows this. No matter how bad-ass you want to seem, Mr. cannibal, I highly doubt you'd be singing the praises of Manson if he decided to kill someone in your family. Or your friends. Someone you love.

FIrst off, I know I'm bad ass, not because I play the Devil's Advocate, nor because I choose to debate such a controversial topic. I would sing Mansons praise if he killed my mom, dad, and my whole family. You see I don't care, but that is not what this is about...is it?

Your reasoning is fine for someone that isn't so criminally insane. I could see an argument for putting Manson in a maximum security psychiatric hospital. But if he were let free completely, he'd wreak havoc on society.

Is that something you'd want on your shoulders? Knowing you advocated that?

Oh, right. I forgot. You want people to think you're scary or whatnot. You'll say yes, I suspect.

Lol, you make me laugh. People can think as they wish of me...I am just a reflection of you all. IF people find me scary, fine. I really could care less.

At 5/17/03 12:54 AM, Crack_Smoker wrote: Ol' Charlie still gets up for parole every few years since his death sentence was commuted to life in prison. I don't think the swastika he carved into his forehead helps his cause too much.

Hasn't old Charlie publicly stated that if he was parolled he would go on a killing spree and basically do what put him in prison in the first place all over again? I've heard that, but I'm not sure, I can't back that up, I'm just asking if anybody else knows. Anyway, on to some facts I DO know.

Manson dosen't want out of prison, you know why? Manson gets tons of fan mail, he gets to be infamous, he gets to have his name be a household word...and really, that's all he ever wanted to begin with, he was trying to be a muscian for attention and he started his little family to feel important. The fact is this man is sick, he is a very mentally sick man, who will do ANYTHING to get attention. I would point to the fact that Mr. Manson has obvious mental problems as the reason he could not be his own attorney at his trial (there may also be a law or two against people acting as counsel in their own defense in the state he was tried in that I am unaware of as well).

Charles Manson is a sick man who did terrible things. Personally, I think they should give him the death penalty...just so I don't have to pay for sickos like him to continue to draw breath and waste space on this planet...he has not shown that he can be rehabilitated, and he shows no remorse, was not the death penalty enacted for people like him? To get up and defend this guy makes me have serious questions about the motivations of the topic starter.

At 6/15/03 09:22 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 5/17/03 12:54 AM, Crack_Smoker wrote: Ol' Charlie still gets up for parole every few years since his death sentence was commuted to life in prison. I don't think the swastika he carved into his forehead helps his cause too much.

Hasn't old Charlie publicly stated that if he was parolled he would go on a killing spree and basically do what put him in prison in the first place all over again? I've heard that, but I'm not sure, I can't back that up, I'm just asking if anybody else knows. Anyway, on to some facts I DO know.

I have never heard that before. Anyone else? I know he states he never wants to be released though. Wonder why?

Manson dosen't want out of prison, you know why? Manson gets tons of fan mail, he gets to be infamous, he gets to have his name be a household word...and really, that's all he ever wanted to begin with, he was trying to be a muscian for attention and he started his little family to feel important.

Actually, if you hear his music, you would be obviously surprised. I happen to own a recording with 14 original songs, written and performed by him. He was extremely gifted at writing, and playing guitar. I never said he didn't want attention. It is common knowledge he likes attention. He started his "family" because they came to him. If you research this more, go to and look up Charles Manson. You will find that they willingly flocked to him. He never went out recruiting anyone.

The fact is this man is sick, he is a very mentally sick man, who will do ANYTHING to get attention.

I never said he wasn't sick. He has obviously shown signs of severe paranoid pschizophrenia. I think that is common knowledge as well though. Let me ask you a question: Do you like attention? Did you get enough attention from your parents when you were younger? He is attention starved. He had a horrible childhood, and by all means, should've turned out worse. I am not saying that to excuse his actions though. I am simply stating that because it is an important factor into the mind of Charles Manson.

I would point to the fact that Mr. Manson has obvious mental problems as the reason he could not be his own attorney at his trial (there may also be a law or two against people acting as counsel in their own defense in the state he was tried in that I am unaware of as well).

Funny you mention that. As well if you read my article that I wrote for school, that he was denied the to defend himself in a court of law. He was denied, and never told why he was denied. He was judged before he walked in the courtroom.

Charles Manson is a sick man who did terrible things.

Here again, if you read my article earlier, you would know that I am not persuading you to like the man, just rethink how it all went down.

Personally, I think they should give him the death penalty...just so I don't have to pay for sickos like him to continue to draw breath and waste space on this planet...he has not shown that he can be rehabilitated, and he shows no remorse, was not the death penalty enacted for people like him? To get up and defend this guy makes me have serious questions about the motivations of the topic starter.

I do not agree he should be put to death. Yeah, he told people to kill for him. I never denied that, how could you? He has served over 30 years for that though...30 years. Remember, he himself did not kill anyone. Why should Charles Manson remain locked up? Oh yeah, I forgot...you hate him. But how can you hate that which you do not personally know?

crime library Right

At 6/16/03 11:00 PM, cannibal7878 wrote:

I do not agree he should be put to death. Yeah, he told people to kill for him. I never denied that, how could you? He has served over 30 years for that though...30 years. Remember, he himself did not kill anyone. Why should Charles Manson remain locked up? Oh yeah, I forgot...you hate him. But how can you hate that which you do not personally know?

I think he should remained locked up because I don't believe this is a man who has reformed...or been redeemed...the fact that he personally wishes to remain in prison may even be an altruistic act on his part, since he feels he may still personally be a danger to society, but I'm just supposing there, it could easily be because of what I said earlier about getting everything he wants and needs in prison.

I feel he should remain locked up, he ordered the deaths of others, I would say the same of mafia bosses who ordered the murders of others as well...there is no greater theft, than the theft of life. Charles Manson ordered the taking of lives, and he lost the right to freely live his in return...I think that's absolutely fair personally.

I think he should remained locked up because I don't believe this is a man who has reformed...or been redeemed...

I never said anything about Charles being redeemed, though who are we to say if he has not been so?

the fact that he personally wishes to remain in prison may even be an altruistic act on his part, since he feels he may still personally be a danger to society, but I'm just supposing there, it could easily be because of what I said earlier about getting everything he wants and needs in prison.

I hear what you are saying about him getting what he wants in prison. I tell you he would get that much more on the outside. Sure he may have a plethora of enemies, he has millions of followers, who are willing to give up and follow him. Remember he gets more mail than any other inmate in all time.

I feel he should remain locked up, he ordered the deaths of others, I would say the same of mafia bosses who ordered the murders of others as well...there is no greater theft, than the theft of life. Charles Manson ordered the taking of lives, and he lost the right to freely live his in return...I think that's absolutely fair personally.

I again hear what you are saying, but I do disagree. I believe he has served enough time for his crimes against society. You say there is no greater theft than the theft of another human being. Let me again remind you that he himself did not take any human life.

At 6/17/03 11:14 PM, cannibal7878 wrote:

I never said anything about Charles being redeemed, though who are we to say if he has not been so?

A good point.

I hear what you are saying about him getting what he wants in prison. I tell you he would get that much more on the outside. Sure he may have a plethora of enemies, he has millions of followers, who are willing to give up and follow him. Remember he gets more mail than any other inmate in all time.

I realize that...but letting him out, and letting people follow him...and I'm stating this from the hypothetical position that Mr. Manson has had some sort conversion in prison or something...don't you think that such attention could possibly undue any progress he has made? And that he could fall back into his old destructive patterns? I feel it is best for him, and best for society he remain where he is, and if he's happy there, than who are we to demand he be removed from an environment he's happy in?

I again hear what you are saying, but I do disagree. I believe he has served enough time for his crimes against society. You say there is no greater theft than the theft of another human being. Let me again remind you that he himself did not take any human life.

You're arguing semantics with me, potato patato. I don't see the difference, if Charles Manson had not ordered it, those murders would never have taken place, to me, that makes him as culpable as if he commited the physical act itself.

hang out with him for a night in his 6x9 and let us know if you think he should be free.

Whats the matter daddy do you in the ass?

At 6/18/03 12:23 AM, AmericanBADASS wrote: Whats the matter daddy do you in the ass?

I assume you address the topic author...you know...the guy is raising an interesting point, and is being intelligent in his aruguments...I think you should offer him the same courtesy.

Hey Manson is cool and all, but we need to start one on John Wayne Gacey or Jeffery Gommer

At 6/19/03 06:39 PM, DarkCyrstal wrote: Hey Manson is cool and all, but we need to start one on John Wayne Gacey or Jeffery Gommer

that's Dohmer (spelling?) not "Gommer" and he's dead...so there's no point in arguing his release...and besides...Dohmer and Gacey were the actual murderers...cannibal is aruging for Manson's release based on the fact that he didn't directly murder anyone. There is a difference in argument...although to me, murder is murder...and Manson should be left where he is.

At 6/19/03 06:39 PM, DarkCyrstal wrote: Hey Manson is cool and all, but we need to start one on John Wayne Gacey or Jeffery Gommer

Regardless of the fact that both died in 1994, from Lethal Injection (deliberatly botched, BTW) and having their head mashed in with a broom handle in the prison showers respectivly. Fine, they could be released, as they pose no threat to society, but they'd stink, man.

Why not Ramirez, or Lucas - they're both alive and well, the former on Death Row, the latter commuted to Life Sentence by then-Governor Bush (obviously seeing something in young Henry Lee that he liked...), and not political ammunition and emotive subjects, wheras Manson is.

At 6/17/03 11:39 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 6/17/03 11:14 PM, cannibal7878 wrote:

I never said anything about Charles being redeemed, though who are we to say if he has not been so?

A good point.

I hear what you are saying about him getting what he wants in prison. I tell you he would get that much more on the outside. Sure he may have a plethora of enemies, he has millions of followers, who are willing to give up and follow him. Remember he gets more mail than any other inmate in all time.

I realize that...but letting him out, and letting people follow him...and I'm stating this from the hypothetical position that Mr. Manson has had some sort conversion in prison or something...don't you think that such attention could possibly undue any progress he has made? And that he could fall back into his old destructive patterns? I feel it is best for him, and best for society he remain where he is, and if he's happy there, than who are we to demand he be removed from an environment he's happy in?

Okay Canni here goes...

In America we all the right to be free and if he has served his time and shows all signs of reformation then I don't see why he shouldn't be free. People commit crimes everyday, they then go to jail, serve their time and are let out into general public again. A former criminal always has the tendencies to commit the same crime again but we tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. I agree the nature of his crimes is a bit out of the ordinary but no one should have the right to change laws just because we are now faced with an uncommon situation.

I again hear what you are saying, but I do disagree. I believe he has served enough time for his crimes against society. You say there is no greater theft than the theft of another human being. Let me again remind you that he himself did not take any human life.

You're arguing semantics with me, potato patato. I don't see the difference, if Charles Manson had not ordered it, those murders would never have taken place, to me, that makes him as culpable as if he commited the physical act itself.

The world jumps at the opportunity to define someone’s actions. It is said that people are afraid of what they can’t explain. I feel he is rather gifted in the sense that he could manipulate people into sacrificing not only their freedom but their lives to perform these acts on his behalf. We were all meant to be different too bad so many of us came out the same.

At 6/17/03 11:39 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 6/17/03 11:14 PM, cannibal7878 wrote:

You're arguing semantics with me, potato patato. I don't see the difference, if Charles Manson had not ordered it, those murders would never have taken place, to me, that makes him as culpable as if he commited the physical act itself.

If those people never listened they would have never taken place....Do you feel like Manson would have ever committed those acts with his own hands?

Manson is still alive because he didn't actually kill anyone. I think that he should be happy where he his because living in prisone is better than not living at all.

FUN FACT: Manson named his son Zezozose Zadfrack.

At 6/23/03 11:20 AM, mrpopenfresh wrote: Manson is still alive because he didn't actually kill anyone. I think that he should be happy where he his because living in prisone is better than not living at all.

I'd rather die than live without my freedom.

At 6/23/03 12:10 PM, Nirvana13666 wrote:

At 6/23/03 11:20 AM, mrpopenfresh wrote: Manson is still alive because he didn't actually kill anyone. I think that he should be happy where he his because living in prisone is better than not living at all.

I'd rather die than live without my freedom.

Same here, exccept if its a minimum security with no homosexuals, then id consider it.

In reality I highly doubt Manson will ever be set free. I think everyone deserves a chance to prove they have learned from their mistakes. Although many of us act alike when it really comes down to it we all think differently. No one can just assume he will go back to his old ways but all those assumptions floating around will definitely keep him imprisoned for the rest of his life.

Man is scared of what he can’t explain.

ok, lemme ask you this. lets say some guy pulled out a knife while you and your family were walking around or whatever, andhe tryed to stab your mom, but you or whoever stops him. now, do you think he that man who tryed to stabyour mom, should stay in jail?

At 6/23/03 09:09 AM, Nirvana13666 wrote:

If those people never listened they would have never taken place....Do you feel like Manson would have ever committed those acts with his own hands?

I can't say that for sure...but my point, is that in MY eyes, he ordered those murders...and that makes him culpable, as culpable as if he was right there commiting the act...he still has the blood on his hands from it.

I like you're satements Nirvana, you're very good at emotional appeal...but I can't say as I agree with you're reasoning, it seems to me you think that we should let the people like Manson (who is quite happy where hhe's at, he's said as much, so if those are his wishes...do's that not supercede any movements people might make to have him freed?) walk the streets, because they're just "misunderstood" and we're scared of what we don't understand...sorry, can't get behind that...I'm scared though...I'm scared of people who would kill me and my family...kill people I know...and they don't give that a second thought. Are they brilliant? Hell yes, in their own twisted fashion they are (Zodiac springs immediately to mind...Jack the Ripper as well). But there again, TWISTED fashion, they violate others rights, in the fulfillment of their own...most importantly (since we are talking about Charles Manson and folks like him) they violate a persons right to live, and they have done so multiple times...if someone commits one murder, maybe I think they can be reformed, hell mistakes happen, you don't know. But once we get to 2 and up, especially when it's spread apart over days, weeks, months, years, than we are talking about a violent person who just isn't going to get better in my opinion, and they need to be put someplace where they cannot hurt others. People like Zodiac don't reform, Charlie Manson was locked up BEFORE his current incarceration, and he learned nothing...even now, he seems to have learned nothing...except that he enjoys being a celebrity. If being a jailhouse celebrity makes him happy, and keeps him from harming people? I say leave him where he is: where he's happy, and we're safe.

At 6/24/03 01:14 PM, BootlegJones wrote: ok, lemme ask you this. lets say some guy pulled out a knife while you and your family were walking around or whatever, andhe tryed to stab your mom, but you or whoever stops him. now, do you think he that man who tryed to stabyour mom, should stay in jail?

Your missing the point of this discussion. The argument is that Manson should be in a halfway home or anything better than prison because he didn't actually kill anyone. Just read the previous threads and you'll get the idea.

At 6/24/03 01:20 PM, aviewaskewed wrote:

At 6/23/03 09:09 AM, Nirvana13666 wrote:

If those people never listened they would have never taken place....Do you feel like Manson would have ever committed those acts with his own hands?

I can't say that for sure...but my point, is that in MY eyes, he ordered those murders...and that makes him culpable, as culpable as if he was right there commiting the act...he still has the blood on his hands from it.

I like you're satements Nirvana, you're very good at emotional appeal...but I can't say as I agree with you're reasoning, it seems to me you think that we should let the people like Manson (who is quite happy where hhe's at, he's said as much, so if those are his wishes...do's that not supercede any movements people might make to have him freed?) walk the streets, because they're just "misunderstood" and we're scared of what we don't understand...sorry, can't get behind that...I'm scared though...I'm scared of people who would kill me and my family...kill people I know...and they don't give that a second thought. Are they brilliant? Hell yes, in their own twisted fashion they are (Zodiac springs immediately to mind...Jack the Ripper as well). But there again, TWISTED fashion, they violate others rights, in the fulfillment of their own...most importantly (since we are talking about Charles Manson and folks like him) they violate a persons right to live, and they have done so multiple times...if someone commits one murder, maybe I think they can be reformed, hell mistakes happen, you don't know. But once we get to 2 and up, especially when it's spread apart over days, weeks, months, years, than we are talking about a violent person who just isn't going to get better in my opinion, and they need to be put someplace where they cannot hurt others. People like Zodiac don't reform, Charlie Manson was locked up BEFORE his current incarceration, and he learned nothing...even now, he seems to have learned nothing...except that he enjoys being a celebrity. If being a jailhouse celebrity makes him happy, and keeps him from harming people? I say leave him where he is: where he's happy, and we're safe.

I agree that we all should feel safe and that is why we form laws to make sure people suffer consequences when they can't contain themselves and live peacefully within the general public. However I do not think he should continue to be treated as a criminal after he has served his sentenced time. People are misunderstood but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to pursue a happy, free life. What if people like him were monitored kind of like how we monitor sex offenders once they are let free? Majority of pedophiliacs have mental issues that even time and rehabilitation programs can not "fix". We let them free and they roam around our children but they stay monitored because according to our laws we can not keep them locked up forever once they have served their time.

On a side note, there are a lot of regulars here and it is obvious some get more respect than others because of how they debate. I have been watching your posts and it’s nice to find another NG user that can debate maturely.

At 6/27/03 10:30 AM, Nirvana13666 wrote:

I agree that we all should feel safe and that is why we form laws to make sure people suffer consequences when they can't contain themselves and live peacefully within the general public. However I do not think he should continue to be treated as a criminal after he has served his sentenced time. People are misunderstood but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to pursue a happy, free life. What if people like him were monitored kind of like how we monitor sex offenders once they are let free? Majority of pedophiliacs have mental issues that even time and rehabilitation programs can not "fix". We let them free and they roam around our children but they stay monitored because according to our laws we can not keep them locked up forever once they have served their time.

Certainly, that's an interesting point...but what I've been trying to say is, Charles Manson isn't in prison and not getting the oppurtunity to get out, he gets parole hearings, and I would say he purposely messes them up, because he'd rather be in prison, and get his fan mail, and reap whatever benefit he thinks he gets from the image he's created for himself. If we look at the larger issue, than yeah, I can see what you're saying, and depending on a person's viewpoint, I think you'd have to consider certain factors in terms of arguing that point:

1. Is the taking of life more serious than sexual crimes against children which can ruin lives.

2. If both can be given the same amount of severity (and I think we reasonably could say so) does that mean that the law on murder should become comparable to murder? Or should pedophillia law become equivalent to that of murderer's?

On a side note, there are a lot of regulars here and it is obvious some get more respect than others because of how they debate. I have been watching your posts and it’s nice to find another NG user that can debate maturely.

But to me, that's not how this topic was stated as I understood it...I understood it as we were talking about whether Charles Manson personally should be released or not...and not the larger issue of sentencing the mentally ill whose illness manifests in a lack of conscience and inclanation towards violence.

And thank for you're compliments towards me by the way Nirvana, it is nice to meet someone on this forum that is more concerned with discussing an issue and fleshing it out than being "right" or "wrong".

ack...bad spelling day I'm having...it's been a bad week too...and today ain't going good either.

Anyway, I meant that to look at the larger issue you need to analyze if murder and pedophilia should have the same kind of sentencing terms or not.

He's i njail because he KNOWINGLY HELPED COMMIT MURDER. driving the car is the same as pullign the tirgger in my opinion.

The sad fact remains that we are a reflection of our own names. Our actions stem and take root in the fanatical beginning which we have created. Charles Manson is no different in that respect. It is not fair and good for what he did, but I still stand resolved that he should be released; for he did not physicaly kill anyone.

To whom it may concern,
I was only 13 when AKA "Charlie Manson" (His real name is, Juan Duarte, CDC B-33920 Corcoran) was sentenced to prison. I never met the man. All I know about him I learned from books and the news media. There are a few things that bother me about the case.
First, Charlie Manson was accused of being able to control other people%u2019s minds, psychically %u201Cto kill%u201D. Although the prosecutor never established the fact that he or any one else was even capable of doing such an incredulous act.
Second, The main witnesses were his co-defendants (Susan Atkins and Squeaky Fromm,) who were obviously delusional, since they admitted, %u201Chearing voices" that believe were Charlie Manson. And the court accepted this as evidence even though, According to the 1965 Federal Court Ruling People vs./ Arranda, states %u201CYou can not enter into evidence any statement made by one co-defendant against another%u2026%u201D Therefore, their (Susan Atkins and Squeaky Fromm,) statements would be considered inadmissible as evidence against Charlie Manson. Ronnie Howard%u2019s testimony would be considered a confession from Susan Atkins and Squeaky Fromm, but hearsay against Charlie Manson.
Third, Charlie Manson never killed anyone himself. And he wasn't even at the crime scene. Those women weren%u2019t forced or co-ursed. Therefore he should have been charged with %u201Caccessory,%u201D at the most. His sentence would then be 5 years in California State Prison.
Fourth, The gun that the prosecutor submitted as evidence was a 45 caliber. The gun used at the crime site was a 38 caliber??
Fifth, The Judge should have ruled the case an acquittal. For this type of serious felony should be a unanimous vote from the jury not majority.
Sixth
Sharon Tate & Roman Polanski%u2019s daughter lived. Her name is Leslie Laffey & she lives in Grass Valley California. She was born January 28, 1970. She was born 4 months after her mother was allegedly murdered. Therefore if Leslie is alive so is Sharon Tate. How many lies has our Government told us?
It%u2019s been more than 37 years since Charlie has been convicted. This year he%u2019ll celebrate his 74? birthday. I think it%u2019s time to set this innocent man free. Please consider initiating a further investigation.
For the sake of Liberty and Justice for all.

Carol Ann Rouse Gallegos

"Until the great mass of the people shall be filled with the sense of responsibility for each other's welfare, social justice can never be attained. "
Helen Keller

Carol%u2019s Journal
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/journ al_view.php?journalid=317146&view=public
Carol%u2019s My Yahoo 360 page
http://360.yahoo.com/my_profile.html;_yl t=At0mt0zyGzC4DhZ5Yi9F5x6kAOJ3
Should Charles Manson be in prison
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/showt hread.php?t=215084&goto=newpost

At 5/17/03 12:54 AM, RoboTripper wrote: Commander is right, he's just as responsible as those he ordered to carry out the murders. Let him rot.

"I have killed no one and I have ordered no one to be killed."
-Charles Manson

At 10/28/07 11:29 AM, kahncccp wrote:

At 5/17/03 12:54 AM, RoboTripper wrote: Commander is right, he's just as responsible as those he ordered to carry out the murders. Let him rot.

"I have killed no one and I have ordered no one to be killed."
-Charles Manson

And you are just going to take his word for it.