America: Love it or leave it

[JBoneZ]

I am sick of people hating their own country(I am talking about the US). It is far from perfect, but I will be damned if there is another country better than th US!-some person I forgot the name of. If they are living in the best country in the world, and they start protesting against its decisions, and hate the country itself, why don't they just...leave?

[karasz]

then whats the point of free speech? if we have to leave everytime we disagree with the US?

defeats the purpose... and sounds to me like you want the population of the US to fall in a specific line and not bad mouth the US at all... ya know cuz after all we are fighting for other countries to have the same rights that we have, that you want to take away from people already in the US...

i love irony so much

[Jimsween]

At 5/11/03 12:35 AM, karasz wrote: then whats the point of free speech? if we have to leave everytime we disagree with the US?

defeats the purpose... and sounds to me like you want the population of the US to fall in a specific line and not bad mouth the US at all... ya know cuz after all we are fighting for other countries to have the same rights that we have, that you want to take away from people already in the US...

i love irony so much

Kar, I agree with you in spirit but I think he was refering to really hating the US. I have seen some people that have true malice and hate for the US (Most tend to be people with rich parents and cushy lives) and I tend to wonder why they live here if they hate USA so much. There is a fine line between hate and dislike.

[red-neck-1]

At 5/11/03 01:21 AM, jimsween wrote:

At 5/11/03 12:35 AM, karasz wrote: then whats the point of free speech? if we have to leave everytime we disagree with the US?

defeats the purpose... and sounds to me like you want the population of the US to fall in a specific line and not bad mouth the US at all... ya know cuz after all we are fighting for other countries to have the same rights that we have, that you want to take away from people already in the US...

i love irony so much

Kar, I agree with you in spirit but I think he was refering to really hating the US. I have seen some people that have true malice and hate for the US (Most tend to be people with rich parents and cushy lives) and I tend to wonder why they live here if they hate USA so much. There is a fine line between hate and dislike.

i toatlly disagree with you kar i am a soldier in the us army and i think it is stupid to protest aginst me fighting for that freedom if it wasn't for soldiers like me ya'll wouldn't be able to have that freedom!

[nitroxide]

hey redneck guess what your not so important your one of millions all blind all slaves and all pawns and murderers hired assasins to take care of interest that are not of priorety as a soldier why dont you come and protect me(the people)from discrimanating cops around my area why not look at the problems in your own country before believing you can save the world.i make you i work and portions of what i make gets stolen from me to go to war cuase without me(the people)there is no you.Not questioning authourity makes you a minority. your own goverment doesnt care they dont look out for you in ww2 the hiroshima bombing killed about two dozen american POW they dint care to bomb you and it was a fact that this remained hiiden for 30 years all wars have alterior motives and nothing is the truth you are being lied to and your eating everything up i hate this goverment but i wouldnt plan terorism attacks becuase all those people are innocent i wouldnt waste my time with a soilder all these people are pawns all being lied to i would go after the people that do matter...i wont love america at its present state and i have more right to be here that every american out there our world was once unified at a time you have let them divide mankind into a circle of confusion.

[karasz]

At 5/11/03 01:59 AM, red_neck_1 wrote: i toatlly disagree with you kar i am a soldier in the us army and i think it is stupid to protest aginst me fighting for that freedom if it wasn't for soldiers like me ya'll wouldn't be able to have that freedom!

well 3 things... 1) u want all of america to be quiet while your fighting... taking away america's 1st amendment, and pretty much the only thing everyone can agree that speaking out against a war is why the first amendment is there... while u are fighting in a country to give that land the same rights that we have, which just happen to be the same rights you wanna take away...

2) im well aware of the flaming i will recieve BUT if you think logically about my next comment you will see that i am right... you are fighting to give the freedom to other places, not defending the US... there is a difference... even if wmd's are found in iraq it doesnt change the fact that the US would not be in danger because of iraqi missiles, they lacked the capability to hit the US, now israel and some US allies would be hit but that is not the US...

3) im not taking away from what u do, personally i have a thing about getting shot at but thats me, and if the US is invaded i will take arms... until then feel free to be told what to do, when to do it, and have people shoot at ya... and not to sound mean, but it wasnt the people in the army now that gave me my freedoms, it was the dirty poor stupid farmers 227 years ago that gave them to me... but everyone forgets about them...

i know it sounds condescending but i have the ut-most respect for serviceman, cops and fire fighters, and before it was cool, i used to have the flag out before it was cool, then 2 buildings fall and THEN everyone realizes 'hey ive taken everything for granted, so im going to wave a flag cuz its cool now...' bunch of fucking morons...

i couldnt do it... i dislike being told what to do, when to do it, and how to do it...

[Jimsween]

At 5/11/03 02:25 AM, nitroxide wrote: Whaaaaaa, Whaaaaaaaaaaaa. I want my bottle!!!

Is there one independent thought in that puny little brain of yours or is it all stuff you heard in sum-41 songs.

[AbstractVagabond]

At 5/11/03 01:59 AM, red_neck_1 wrote: i toatlly disagree with you kar i am a soldier in the us army and i think it is stupid to protest aginst me fighting for that freedom if it wasn't for soldiers like me ya'll wouldn't be able to have that freedom!

1) You are in no way fighting for our freedom. Based on Iraqi protests, you're not even fighting for their freedom (even though I know this whole liberation thing is for the bleeding heart conservatives to rally around... and you thought only liberals had bleeding hearts... so sad). You're not even fighting for our security. If you were, you would had the justifications long ago. There's more proof that you're fighting for greed than anything else. I want to say more, but it's hitting 1AM and I have to cut it off thereby making this opinion fragmented. I'm sorry for that.

[NSS-SEPP]

here´s a nice pic for this topic

[bumcheekcity]

At 5/11/03 12:25 AM, JBoneZ wrote: I am sick of people hating their own country(I am talking about the US). It is far from perfect, but I will be damned if there is another country better than th US!-some person I forgot the name of. If they are living in the best country in the world, and they start protesting against its decisions, and hate the country itself, why don't they just...leave?

They can hate the US if they like. I thought the US promoted free speech and stuff. 'Land of the Free' shoulda llow ite own people to speak out, even if against it.

It is seriously debateable as to weather the US is the greatest country in the world.

[Kenney333]

i toatlly disagree with you kar i am a soldier in the us army and i think it is stupid to protest aginst me fighting for that freedom if it wasn't for soldiers like me ya'll wouldn't be able to have that freedom!

Fight for my freedom? i dont think my freedom is worth the death of others

God i hate people

[Commander-K25]

At 5/11/03 01:47 PM, Kenney333 wrote: Fight for my freedom? i dont think my freedom is worth the death of others

Not that I think you are intelligent anough to warrant a response....

So you would rather be enslaved or conquered than fight for freedom? I take it then that you would have preffered Nazi Germany and the USSR to win because, fighting always equals bad, in your one-track mind, right?

You hate people? Well, I hate pompous, uninformed, short-sighted idiots.

[Freakapotimus]

You can love your country and disagree with its government or politics. Just because you speak out and use your freedom of speech doesn't mean that you hate your country and want to leave it.

[D2Kvirus]

How about a trade policy?

Since all the patriotic, moronic, hair-triggered types keep up the pretence "If you don't like it, get the fuck out", can we have those people, and trade them for all the 14 year olds that don't realise they live in England, not South Central LA?

At least that way we'll be rid of So Solid Crew, always a benefit.

[JMHX]

At 5/12/03 09:00 AM, Freakapotimus wrote: You can love your country and disagree with its government or politics. Just because you speak out and use your freedom of speech doesn't mean that you hate your country and want to leave it.

I agree completely, Freakkkkky. And to the soldier who complained about fighting for freedom: don't you have better things to do than post on here?

[Nirvana13666]

At 5/11/03 12:25 AM, JBoneZ wrote: I am sick of people hating their own country(I am talking about the US). It is far from perfect, but I will be damned if there is another country better than th US!-some person I forgot the name of. If they are living in the best country in the world, and they start protesting against its decisions, and hate the country itself, why don't they just...leave?

I think most protest about the government and their ways. I feel most protesters love America for what it stands for and the melting pot of people that can live here in some form of civilized peace. If no one ever protested you might not have the simple civil liberties you take for granted today. We don’t want to leave we want to make this a better place for all of us to live in.

[nitroxide]

beautifully put nirvana is not about kicking people out that dont agree with our present goverment i mean this goverment is for the people right?we would like to unite man into making this place better...we have been raised to complain about unjust things telliing people to leave brings american policies back 100's of years.

[red-neck-1]

At 5/11/03 03:59 AM, OSC wrote:

At 5/11/03 01:59 AM, red_neck_1 wrote: i toatlly disagree with you kar i am a soldier in the us army and i think it is stupid to protest aginst me fighting for that freedom if it wasn't for soldiers like me ya'll wouldn't be able to have that freedom!

1) You are in no way fighting for our freedom. Based on Iraqi protests, you're not even fighting for their freedom (even though I know this whole liberation thing is for the bleeding heart conservatives to rally around... and you thought only liberals had bleeding hearts... so sad). You're not even fighting for our security. If you were, you would had the justifications long ago. There's more proof that you're fighting for greed than anything else. I want to say more, but it's hitting 1AM and I have to cut it off thereby making this opinion fragmented. I'm sorry for that.

see what i mean is we're over there fighting because if we don't fight and keep our "noses" out of all of that that is when they attack us and i know it is highly unlikley that that would happen and if it did we more then likley wouldn't lose but when you start thinking it can't happen that's when you lose the first amendment, and on another note I didn't say not to protest the war i meant don't protest against us soldiers we are following orders and I don't expect everybody to just up and join the Military and get Shot at. all I'm asking is that all of Ya'll respect us soldiers who are fighting so a better man doesn't have to.

[nitroxide]

At 5/12/03 10:47 PM, red_neck_1 wrote:

At 5/11/03 03:59 AM, OSC wrote:

At 5/11/03 01:59 AM, red_neck_1 wrote:

I didn't say not to protest the war i meant don't protest against us soldiers we are following orders and I don't expect everybody to just up and join the Military and get Shot at. all I'm asking is that all of Ya'll respect us soldiers who are fighting so a better man doesn't have to.

so your fighting becuase there are better people than you and you and the millions of soldiers are the waste of the crop?

[AbstractVagabond]

At 5/12/03 10:47 PM, red_neck_1 wrote: see what i mean is we're over there fighting because if we don't fight and keep our "noses" out of all of that that is when they attack us and i know it is highly unlikley that that would happen and if it did we more then likley wouldn't lose but when you start thinking it can't happen that's when you lose the first amendment, and on another note I didn't say not to protest the war i meant don't protest against us soldiers we are following orders and I don't expect everybody to just up and join the Military and get Shot at. all I'm asking is that all of Ya'll respect us soldiers who are fighting so a better man doesn't have to.

I'll get this out of the way first. I do respect what the soldiers do. I don't like the use of the "fighting for our freedom" line as a crutch. In this case, I believe it is used as a crutch because it's not the truth. If we truly fought for our freedoms, we would've done everything in our power to ensure the Patriot Act never got passed.

And I'm not against every act of war. I'm not the type of person who believes that war is never the answer. However, I feel that war isn't the only answer like it was with Iraq. There's more proof now that the Iraq war was not the answer than before. No WMD were found and for this war to have been justified, they would've been found already. Screw this US needs more time bullshit. US should've used more time to provide proof before going to war. US was so gung ho in bombing the shit out of Iraq but NOW wants us to be patient as they find their justifications? Fuck that. If US truly wants me to be patient and give them time, then they shouldn't have went to war until they had the evidence to do so.

[red-neck-1]

At 5/13/03 02:32 AM, nitroxide wrote:

At 5/12/03 10:47 PM, red_neck_1 wrote:

At 5/11/03 03:59 AM, OSC wrote:

At 5/11/03 01:59 AM, red_neck_1 wrote:

I didn't say not to protest the war i meant don't protest against us soldiers we are following orders and I don't expect everybody to just up and join the Military and get Shot at. all I'm asking is that all of Ya'll respect us soldiers who are fighting so a better man doesn't have to.

so your fighting becuase there are better people than you and you and the millions of soldiers are the waste of the crop?

No I'm Not saying we are the bottom of the barrel i'm just saying that there are better men out ther then me like doctors or scientists I'll be hounest with Y'all i'm not the Sharpest tool in the shed know what i mean.

[Ninja-Scientist]

The biased view of America's world relations and America's purpose in this war (and all wars) is all around us. In fact, it has caused a somewhat smaller scale version of the "Red Scare." Those who are against this war or President Bush are suddenly often dubbed "Anti-American" and are suddenly dealt harsh consequences for their freedom of speech.
----------
For example, Harpers Magazine reported recently that a man was arrested for entering a mall with the words, "No War" printed on his T-Shirt. The man was asked to leave the mall for wearing what the officials called a "controversial" message on his T-Shirt. The man refused to leave, and so was arrested for "trespassing."

In a more famous issue, the Dixie Chicks country-singing group was accused of betrayal to their country by including a single unflattering line about President Bush in one of their songs. People protested their actions by refusing to purchase the girls' music and even began to burn the group's CDs in their rallies. This is allowed. But the girls are punished by for their opinions.

Another recent issue involved a news reporter who was actually fired for participating in an anti-war protest, because it "wasn't a good image for the station."

Then again, Harpers reported that on a popular Fox News show, "The O'Reilly Factor." A man named Jeremy Glick, who's father was killed in 9/11, was violently kicked off the show for admitting that, during his leadership of the CIA, Bush Sr. actually greatly financially supported the exact terrorist groups that later became the Taliban who killed his father. Without his previous support, the Taliban could not have attacked the US. That episode was never aired. Glick reported that after the interview, in his humiliation for not being able to contradict Glick's argument, Bill O'Reilly said to him, "Get out of my studio before I tear you to F@#$ pieces."
-----------
I have witnessed the betrayal of the freedom of speech myself. At the end of my block is a fence that is plastered with pro-war posters. Once, I saw that someone put a single anti-war poster in the mist of the others. The next day, I saw that someone had torn it down.

Then, a few days ago, someone hung a sheet up on the wall that simply said, "peace." Two days later someone actually bothered to go over there and knife the sheet to shreds.

At the same area, a pro-war rally was gathered a couple of weeks ago. Only about 20 people came, but a news station covered the event as dozens of cars past by, honking their approval. A week later, 3 lone women sat at the same area with a picture of their son/grandson who was in the war. Their sign said something akin to, "Stop the war, bring my son home." No news station covered it, and no one honked.

My by grandmother's house a billboard once read, "Support our Troops, Send them Home." No more than two weeks later, it was painted over in white and a banner was hung under it that read, "Support the USA, Support our Troops" in red, white, and blue.
------------
The American Dream: "To love America and the freedoms it represents....as long as no one uses them if we disagree with them or find them unflattering."

[Ninja-Scientist]

It is often that I hear the expression, "America: Love it or Leave it." The expression is often targeted at those who dare to admit that their country isn't the "best in the world" or admit that their country has flaws. However, if you truly love your country, then you wouldn't it upset you to hear some of the problems that America is responsible for? And wouldn't you therefore want to do something about it, instead of just denying that those problems exist at all?

I love America, that's why it upsets me to learn about some of the savage things that America has done. I try to do my part by making people more aware of these issues, so that hopefully these mistakes will not be repeated or get worse. Hence, I am trying to actually help my country.

However, in order to be able to try to fix or stop some of the mistakes America is responsible for, you must first realize that they exist. Denying that there are any mistakes, doesn't do anything for your country.

So to all of you who say "Love it or Leave it," let me say this, "You help your team more by playing in the game than by just cheering in the sidelines."
--------

Also, for those who think that America is the "best country in the world," here is more information:

Americans only make up 3% of the world's population (surprising), yet we make over 50% of the worlds trash and pollution. We use the most natural resources (such as oil).

We are towards the top of the most prejudice countries still in existance (though thankfully not at the top). We are the most homophobic, towards the top of the "most racist" list, and are still heavily sexist----for example, white women still make only a little over 70% as much as white men do, black men make only about 65% that that white men do, and black women make only about 76% that white women do, which is much less compared to white men. We will most likely not have a woman, gay, or ethnic president for many many years, even though Europe has already has----take Irland for example.

Americans also use the large majority of the worlds illegal narcotics (such as pot, etc----the only good rate we have is that we smoke the least ^_^).

We have the most street shootings of any of the "peaceful" countries today (meaning, countries not in any political or militaristic turmoil, such as China or Isreal, etc), and we have the highest rate of violence among minors (such as school shootings, etc.)----although this number was dropping for a short while, I believe it rose again recently. I know it's hard to believe that America is the most violent, so see "Bowling for Columbine" if you don't believe it.

So, we are one of the most prejudice countries, the most wasteful and polluting country, we are the most internally violent (of all the "peaceful" countries, or countries not in turmoil), and we are the most "drugged out" (lol) people in the world.

So to answer your statement, "no.....though we are certainly not the worst, we are definately the greatest country in the world."
------

Also, I am not "against US soldiers." It's not their fault that they have to fight this war. In fact, I'm mad that the present administration is making them go out and die for these "suspicious reasons." I think it's insulting to make these men "do our presidents' dirty work" (and I'm not just talking about Bush) with their lives at stake.

If you really care about them, wouldn't you not want them to go to some place and get shot at....for reasons that we are still being denied by our government?

[FUNKbrs]

At 5/13/03 06:49 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

Um, Ninja, not one of the cases of discrimination against protesters was commited by the US government, but by individual US citizens and companies.

*kisses emblem of ST DAG*

[Ninja-Scientist]

At 5/13/03 08:01 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 5/13/03 06:49 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

Um, Ninja, not one of the cases of discrimination against protesters was commited by the US government, but by individual US citizens and companies.

*kisses emblem of ST DAG*

Uh.....and I wasn't talking about governmental discrimination.

That's probably why.

????? @_o'

[FUNKbrs]

At 5/14/03 04:16 AM, Ninja_Scientist wrote: Uh.....and I wasn't talking about governmental discrimination.

well, if you have the right to protest, you have to face the reality that some people will protest your protest. Please dont tell me your saying that you have the right to protest the conflict in the middle east, but people who dont like protestors dont have the right to tell you to shut up. You dont have to shut up, but you do have to respect their point of view if you expect them to respect yours.

[Ninja-Scientist]

At 5/14/03 09:48 AM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 5/14/03 04:16 AM, Ninja_Scientist wrote: Uh.....and I wasn't talking about governmental discrimination.

well, if you have the right to protest, you have to face the reality that some people will protest your protest. Please dont tell me your saying that you have the right to protest the conflict in the middle east, but people who dont like protestors dont have the right to tell you to shut up. You dont have to shut up, but you do have to respect their point of view if you expect them to respect yours.

Um, my point was that they're NOT respecting our point of view.

OK, some guy knifed up a sheet that said "peace." And we are supposed to "respect his points of view for not respecting our points of view." ????? I'm not quite sure how you reason.

None of the anti-war protesting incidents I mentioned damaged or didn't allow someone elses points of view to be heard. And yet, they were damaged or not allowed themselves. So much for "respect other points of view if you want yours to be respected back."

The point was that our points of view aren't being respected at all to begin with (or at least MUCH less than the others).

My problem is that there are people out there who are denying others their freedom of speech. And as for "the government has nothing to do with this," when people are allowed to destroy public property (such as in the billboard case), have violent rallies (such as in the "Dixie Chicks" case), get arrested for their freedom of speech (such as in the "no war" t-shirt case), or get kicked off a TV show for their freedom of speech (such as in the Bill O'Reilly case), then the government is involved.

Now, it is true that the government didn't cause these incidents, but they allowed them to take place. That is the important issue and is why I compared it to the "red scare." Although the government didn't participate in, say, the violent "Anti-Dixie Chick" rallies, they participated by allowing them to continue with no reprocutions to the participants of the violence. Whereas, in any other violent rally, most individuals are arrested (such as after, say, a basketball or soccer game, etc).

The man who was arrested for wearing a "no war" shirt in a mall was arrested by members of the government (the police force) and he was convicted of "tresspassing" in court by other members of the government (the judicial system), and it was "okayed" by other members of the government (the city's governor and administration).

The point is that certain people are suddenly allowed to do----often illegal---actions (like paint over a company billboard, have violent rallies, etc) that they wouldn't have been allowed if it was for any other reason than pro-war. See what I mean?

And in sharp contrast, suddenly "anti-war" beliefs aren't being protected by and are even sometimes punished by the government.

This is similar (although on a smaller scale) of actions taken by the government during the Red Scare. Hence the reference.

Maybe we should have a violent "anti-war" rally and see if the government protects the individuals from reprocutions in the same way as they did in the violent "Dixie Chicks" rallies.

Although you must agree, that that would probably not be the case.

[cannibal7878]

At 5/14/03 05:39 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

At 5/14/03 09:48 AM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 5/14/03 04:16 AM, Ninja_Scientist wrote: Uh.....and I wasn't talking about governmental discrimination.

So...ninja_scientist...you like giving FUNKbrs a hard time do you? Now the DAG is after you. I strongly suggest that you apologize for what you have done...I suggest that you apologize on the DAG message board...promptly...
-Behold, the prophet, Damien the Cannibal, has spoken.

[Ninja-Scientist]

At 5/15/03 06:31 PM, cannibal7878 wrote:

At 5/14/03 05:39 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote:

At 5/14/03 09:48 AM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 5/14/03 04:16 AM, Ninja_Scientist wrote: Uh.....and I wasn't talking about governmental discrimination.

So...ninja_scientist...you like giving FUNKbrs a hard time do you? Now the DAG is after you. I strongly suggest that you apologize for what you have done...I suggest that you apologize on the DAG message board...promptly...
-Behold, the prophet, Damien the Cannibal, has spoken.

Eh, what the heck are you talking about?

Giving him a "hard time?" lol. Funk comments on my posts, not I to his (excluding, of course, my responses to his own comments on my posts).

So, appoligize for what? No offense, but Funk seems to commonly misunderstand what I say in the majority of my posts. Do you want me to apologize for correcting him or re-explaining to him what I was talking about each time? I have the right to explain my stances to him whenever he misunderstands them. Heh heh.

I'm sorry if that may sometimes make him sound like an idiot. But too bad. This is a forum. If you want to be a part of "DAG" (or whatever) then be prepared to play that way, Joe.

Later. ^_-

[mrpopenfresh]

Im starting to doubt that red_neck1 is actually a red neck or a soldier. He seems just waaaaaay to stereotypical. Il believe you if you post a picture of you in uniform.