Questions about the Universe + God

[ForumGuy]

Before we start discussing things, allow me to ask some discussion questions and recount some history.

1. What was before the Universe?

The universe was formed by a big bang many trillions of years ago. Now, for a big bang to happen, there must be energy or mass of some kind. Let us call this substance “æther.”

Lets fast forward many years. The universe is and continues to expand and eventually the Milky Way was formed. Within this Milky Way existed a star called Sol with a funny planet named Earth rotating around it. This leads to question number 2:

2. Is our existence a coincidence or was there something else boosting our growth?

On this planet Earth are funny, carbon-based life forms, like you and me, who form ideas and theories about, to quote Douglas Adams, Life, the Universe and Everything.

Let’s fast forward an indefinite amount of time. This is where the discussion splits into multiple parts with the onset of question 3:

3. What will happen at the “end” of the universe?

There are multiple theories concerning this.

Theory 1 AKA Open Universe – The universe will continue to expand forever.

Theory 2 AKA Closed Universe – There is a finite point where the universe will stop expanding and begin to contract.

Before I discuss these theories, you need to have a view of the universe. You also need to understand that space is curved, according to Einstein.

My friend and I talked logically about this. Sorry for the delay in discussing the questions, but before we can delve into the shape of the universe, we need to understand dimensions.

0th Dimension – A point having no size
1st Dimension – A Line
2nd Dimension – A coordinate grid
3rd Dimension – X, Y, and Z axis, also, we live in a 3 dimensional space
4th Dimension – In a four dimensional space, there is a W, X, Y and Z axis. You can, in a four dimensional space, see every surface of a three dimensional object without rotating it.

In the open universe theory, the universe is a 4 dimensional sphere expanding into an infinite and infinitely dimensional field of æther.

Now, in the closed universe theory, the universe is expanding INTO a 4 dimensional sphere. Once the universe reaches the edge, there are two possible things that can happen once it starts pushing inward.

a. Nothing! The universe will just switch directions and nothing will happen to time.

b. Arrow of time. This means that the virtual arrow directing time will switch directions and time will flow backwards. It will go back through civilization, back through life, and back to the big bang. The implosion will eventually result in a new big bang, starting the process over again.

Now, we come to the fourth question, which ties religion into the discussion.

4. What is this “æther?”

Now, if you believe in string theory, the answer is absolutely nothing. Vacuums have strings within them. Æther, on the other hand, has absolutely nothing, including strings.

I am slightly religious and go to temple now and then. At the temple I had a long discussion with the rabbi about these topics.

I came up with a theory involving æther. Before I explain it, you need to understand how God functions in my theory. God is not a sentient being. In Judaism, and therefore Christianity, everything has God within them. Now, where would God be if God is in everything? Go down to the subatomic level. Within atoms, there is a whole lot of nothing. That is where you find God.

Using the above, I have concluded that God exists outside the universe. The universe is growing into God.

Now, the answer to life. God is not sentient. God had nothing to do with life. Life is merely a coincidence.

Also, what is the meaning of life? To discover the meaning of life or reproduce until we create offspring that can.

According to my definition of life, those unfit to produce should have become killed off by natural selection. Therefore, until we allow natural selection to take its course, the meaning of life is lost.

All we have to do until then is ponder the grand questions of the universe and make threads sharing your thoughts.

Insert argument here.

ForumGuy out.

Damn! I think about the weirdest things during science and French class!

Hypercube below.

[Dre-Man]

Sooo... lemme ask you a question.

Where the fuck did the aether come from? It couldn't have just always been there... so an intelligent being of some kind must have created it. Correct?

[ForumGuy]

At 3/27/07 04:28 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Sooo... lemme ask you a question.

Where the fuck did the aether come from? It couldn't have just always been there... so an intelligent being of some kind must have created it. Correct?

Not necessarily. The aether is nothing. Absolutely nothing. In other words, it cannot be felt, it cannot be entered, it cannot even exist! It is just a concept to say the unexplainable.

[Dre-Man]

At 3/27/07 04:30 PM, ForumGuy wrote:

At 3/27/07 04:28 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Sooo... lemme ask you a question.

Where the fuck did the aether come from? It couldn't have just always been there... so an intelligent being of some kind must have created it. Correct?

Not necessarily. The aether is nothing. Absolutely nothing. In other words, it cannot be felt, it cannot be entered, it cannot even exist! It is just a concept to say the unexplainable.

But, what about the Big Bang, the most popular scientific theory of how the universe was created, which says that the universe was created by an explosion caused by a chemical reaction of a tiny little pinhead of matter? Where did that pinhead come from? How was that pinhead created, and how did the matter that created that pinhead exist and so on and so forth?

[ForumGuy]

At 3/27/07 04:40 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

But, what about the Big Bang, the most popular scientific theory of how the universe was created, which says that the universe was created by an explosion caused by a chemical reaction of a tiny little pinhead of matter? Where did that pinhead come from? How was that pinhead created, and how did the matter that created that pinhead exist and so on and so forth?

Hmmm, thats a tough one.

I guess I could say thatthe absolute nothingness may have small currents of electricity running through it and some random coincidence created matter.

[Dre-Man]

At 3/27/07 04:44 PM, ForumGuy wrote: Hmmm, thats a tough one.

An impossible one, to be exact.

I guess I could say thatthe absolute nothingness may have small currents of electricity running through it and some random coincidence created matter.

That still doesn't answer where the electricity came from :)

[ForumGuy]

At 3/27/07 04:47 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/27/07 04:44 PM, ForumGuy wrote: Hmmm, thats a tough one.

An impossible one, to be exact.

I guess I could say thatthe absolute nothingness may have small currents of electricity running through it and some random coincidence created matter.

That still doesn't answer where the electricity came from :)

Well, electricity can neither be created nor destroyed, so the only possible explanation is that another space-time realm exists from which we got the energy.

Try not to ask about the other realm.

[Peter-II]

At 3/27/07 04:40 PM, Dre-Man wrote: which says that the universe was created by an explosion caused by a chemical reaction

Hahahahaha, oh my.

[Dre-Man]

doesn't answer where the electricity came from :)

Well, electricity can neither be created nor destroyed, so the only possible explanation is that another space-time realm exists from which we got the energy.

Try not to ask about the other realm.

Where did that realm come from? Where did the matter that created that realm come from?

[Peter-II]

Also, to the topic starter: the likes of Ravariel or EndGameOmega would have a field day with you. Einsteinian physics removed the need for aether; the big bang didn't happen "trillions" of years ago. Please go read a physics book.

[ForumGuy]

At 3/27/07 05:04 PM, Peter-II wrote: Also, to the topic starter: the likes of Ravariel or EndGameOmega would have a field day with you. Einsteinian physics removed the need for aether; the big bang didn't happen "trillions" of years ago. Please go read a physics book.

It did happen a while ago. Also, I have read physics books, just not recently os my facts may be a bit muddled.

[Dre-Man]

At 3/27/07 05:04 PM, Peter-II wrote: Also, to the topic starter: the likes of Ravariel or EndGameOmega would have a field day with you. Einsteinian physics removed the need for aether; the big bang didn't happen "trillions" of years ago. Please go read a physics book.

Hey Peter, me and Forum-Guy are trying to have an intelligent discussion about the creation of the universe, and we don't need your ass flaming here for no fucking reason and ruining it.

So... either go bitch about how fucking stupid Christianity is on the Science vs. Religion thread, or fuck off completely.

[ForumGuy]

At 3/27/07 05:02 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

Where did that realm come from? Where did the matter that created that realm come from?

Hmm...

Lets take a look at time itself. Time is like an arrow, reversible at will. Time has also been called a dimension. So...

In the dimension of time, energy may exist or in the dimension of time, there could be a reverse effect. That means that there was never a past ever, we reached a certain point and then time was reversed until a certain point was reached and so on and so forth.

Also, if you looked at my definition of the meaning of life, the question "What was before?" and "What is outside?" can be included in that. So, reproduce until we can answer that.

[Dre-Man]

Time is only a measurement. Not a physical element or realm even. Only man has a concept of time, we measure it, but it does not exist physically.

[ForumGuy]

At 3/27/07 05:22 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Time is only a measurement. Not a physical element or realm even. Only man has a concept of time, we measure it, but it does not exist physically.

Time...

Read the first paragraph. I quote:

One view is that time is part of the fundamental structure of the universe, a dimension in which events occur in sequence...

[Dre-Man]

At 3/27/07 05:25 PM, ForumGuy wrote:

At 3/27/07 05:22 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Time is only a measurement. Not a physical element or realm even. Only man has a concept of time, we measure it, but it does not exist physically.

Time...

Read the first paragraph. I quote:

One view is that time is part of the fundamental structure of the universe, a dimension in which events occur in sequence...

I suppose that there are two different ways to look at the concept of time, but can time truly create matter, or a physical being? Does time have influence on the physical world? One can only speculate on this matter.

[ForumGuy]

At 3/27/07 05:27 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

I suppose that there are two different ways to look at the concept of time, but can time truly create matter, or a physical being? Does time have influence on the physical world? One can only speculate on this matter.

I guess there is now way for us to know. It is hard to even make guesses. Well, all we can do is wait it out.

[Dre-Man]

At 3/27/07 05:30 PM, ForumGuy wrote:

At 3/27/07 05:27 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

I suppose that there are two different ways to look at the concept of time, but can time truly create matter, or a physical being? Does time have influence on the physical world? One can only speculate on this matter.

I guess there is now way for us to know. It is hard to even make guesses. Well, all we can do is wait it out.

People believe because they can not explain, I think. Where there is no understanding there is faith.

[Peter-II]

At 3/27/07 05:13 PM, Dre-Man wrote: Hey Peter, me and Forum-Guy are trying to have an intelligent discussion about the creation of the universe, and we don't need your ass flaming here for no fucking reason and ruining it.

So... either go bitch about how fucking stupid Christianity is on the Science vs. Religion thread, or fuck off completely.

Haha. Well, my ego is satisfied quite enough for the night.

Peter out!

[EndGameOmega]

At 3/27/07 04:23 PM, ForumGuy wrote:

1. What was before the Universe?

First you make the assumption that there is a before the Universe. It's quite possible that time was created during the big bang. Now if time was created at the big bang then there can't be anything before as the question no longer makes sense. Although if time wasn't created at the big bang or if there's some kind of “super” time out side of our universe then what ever this external time steam is a part of so too is our universe. Note that if string theory is correct then our universe exists on a brain, and is mearly the superposition of waveforms on this brain (more or less).

The universe was formed by a big bang many trillions of years ago. Now, for a big bang to happen, there must be energy or mass of some kind. Let us call this substance “æther.”

Uh... No. The big bang happened some 15->35 billion years ago, not quite trillions. If matter and energy was created at the big bang (a distinct possibility) then there didn't have to be a beginning. As a side note to this, even if matter and energy didn't exists before the big bang Quantum fluctuations still did, and these events do have the potential to bring the universe into creation on there own, if given enough time. I'm not sure if your trying to postulate where “ether” comes from, but that isn't it. “Ether” was the idea put forth around the 16th and 17th century's to enplane how light, which was found to be a wave phonmina could propagate. This was well before the idea of particle duality came around, and that a particles wave form could be carried by it self.

2. Is our existence a coincidence or was there something else boosting our growth?

The answer to this question is, there doesn't have to be. Now this in and of it self doesn't mean there wasn't, but simply that we can explain the existence of life with out calling forth any deity(s), or aliens.

On this planet Earth are funny, carbon-based life forms, like you and me, who form ideas and theories about, to quote Douglas Adams, Life, the Universe and Everything.

And the answer is 2! Not 42, and most certainly not 137 dammit! :)

3. What will happen at the “end” of the universe?

Theory 1 AKA Open Universe – The universe will continue to expand forever.

Theory 2 AKA Closed Universe – There is a finite point where the universe will stop expanding and begin to contract.

Before I discuss these theories, you need to have a view of the universe. You also need to understand that space is curved, according to Einstein.

3rd Dimension – X, Y, and Z axis, also, we live in a 3 dimensional space
4th Dimension – In a four dimensional space, there is a W, X, Y and Z axis. You can, in a four dimensional space, see every surface of a three dimensional object without rotating it.

Actually we live in a 3+1 dimensional space-time (Minkowski space), effectively making it four dimensions. And the notation for 4 dimensions is usually t,x,y,z, unless your specifically talking about a fourth spacial dimension in place of time.

In the open universe theory, the universe is a 4 dimensional sphere expanding into an infinite and infinitely dimensional field of æther.

Again that's not what ether is.

Now, in the closed universe theory, the universe is expanding INTO a 4 dimensional sphere. Once the universe reaches the edge, there are two possible things that can happen once it starts pushing inward.

Be careful with your terminology, when you say into, your imping that the space was already there before the “universe” was, this does not have to be (and probably isn't) the case.

a. Nothing! The universe will just switch directions and nothing will happen to time.

If the universe begins to contract (which is highly unlikly) then yes, little if anything will happen to time.

b. Arrow of time. This means that the virtual arrow directing time will switch directions and time will flow backwards. It will go back through civilization, back through life, and back to the big bang. The implosion will eventually result in a new big bang, starting the process over again.

The arrow of time will not switch directions, if the universe start contracting. The arrow of time comes about primarily through the concept of entropy, and entropy will no be reversed if the universe is contracting.

Also you haven't mentioned anything about an open universe, which is what ours most likely is. This has many forms of “death” most widely known is heat death, or maximum entropy. However given the rate of universal expanding is in fact accelerating it leads to other possibility's, the most interesting I find to be the ripped asunder hypothesis.

Now, we come to the fourth question, which ties religion into the discussion.

No question that can be answered in science should involve a call to religion.

4. What is this “æther?”

Now, if you believe in string theory, the answer is absolutely nothing. Vacuums have strings within them. Æther, on the other hand, has absolutely nothing, including strings.

No, there is stuff between strings, there are whole hosts of virtual strings, fields, and even real fields with in the space between strings.

I am slightly religious and go to temple now and then. At the temple I had a long discussion with the rabbi about these topics.

Uh, there are probably better people to ask science questions, unless your rabbi has strong knowledge in the field of science, of course I mean not to offended.

I came up with a theory involving æther. Before I explain it, you need to understand how God functions in my theory. God is not a sentient being. In Judaism, and therefore Christianity, everything has God within them. Now, where would God be if God is in everything? Go down to the subatomic level. Within atoms, there is a whole lot of nothing. That is where you find God.

Hun? I suppose the forces of nature could be god, but then if god isn't even sentient, why is it god? Also theres no such thing as nothing, even in “vacuum” we have quantum fluctuations.

Using the above, I have concluded that God exists outside the universe. The universe is growing into God.

This conclusion is false, at lest when taken from the starting premises. Again, not to say god doesn't exist inside or out side the universe, just that the argument doesn't support this conclusion.

Now, the answer to life. God is not sentient. God had nothing to do with life. Life is merely a coincidence.

Ok, then again, why are you calling it god?

Also, what is the meaning of life? To discover the meaning of life or reproduce until we create offspring that can.

Your making the assumption of an internist meaning to life, there doesn't have to be.

According to my definition of life, those unfit to produce should have become killed off by natural selection. Therefore, until we allow natural selection to take its course, the meaning of life is lost.

Eugenics? Probably not the best idea, but, that's a different discussion entirely.

Hypercube below.

Why is this here?

[Dre-Man]

At 3/27/07 05:42 PM, EndGameOmega wrote: First you make the assumption that there is a before the Universe. It's quite possible that time was created during the big bang

I promise to respond to the rest of your post later, but this is the statement that got to me the most.

My question to you is, if time itself was created at the Big Bang, what exactly created that time?

[Altarus]

At 3/27/07 05:27 PM, Dre-Man wrote: I suppose that there are two different ways to look at the concept of time, but can time truly create matter, or a physical being? Does time have influence on the physical world? One can only speculate on this matter.

Time has an influence on the physical world. Time slows down as relative velocity increases. The fact that two objects moving at different velocities slow down/speed up in time proves there is something more to time.

[Dre-Man]

At 3/28/07 04:44 AM, Altarus wrote: Time has an influence on the physical world. Time slows down as relative velocity increases. The fact that two objects moving at different velocities slow down/speed up in time proves there is something more to time.

We do not have the scientific instruments to measure or observe your concept of time, therefore I don't see it as being a reality, and rather a mere speculation or observation of what time actually could be. Neither have we seen time's influence on the physical universe. But you may be right.

But I ask my question again, if time was in fact started at the start of the Big Bang, what started it?

[Altarus]

At 3/28/07 11:50 AM, Dre-Man wrote: We do not have the scientific instruments to measure or observe your concept of time, therefore I don't see it as being a reality, and rather a mere speculation or observation of what time actually could be. Neither have we seen time's influence on the physical universe. But you may be right.

Einstein's relativity has been tested over and over again. Atomic clocks have been put on jets and flown in opposite directions, and his predictions have always held.

[morefngdbs]

At 3/27/07 04:40 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/27/07 04:30 PM, ForumGuy wrote:

But, Where did that pinhead come from? How was that pinhead created, and how did the matter that created that pinhead exist and so on and so forth?

;
The universe did not yet exist, so why couldn't the pinhead come from another reality.
Coming from another universe or reality, it was created there.
So this opens up the possibility of an infinate amount of realities, to a point where maybe the future has created the past.

[WRB852]

This is my theory on time and the universe.
For every possibility of any action taken another alternate universe is created. I have a picture to help. On the single line i am sitting at my desk. At point "A" I decided to pick up my glass of water. At point "B" I decided not to. On my action i therefore created an alternate universe, but not consciously. These alternate universes are created constantly, and create another line in the timeline.

[WRB852]

bump

[morefngdbs]

At 3/28/07 02:20 PM, WRB852 wrote: This is my theory on time and the universe.
For every possibility of any action taken On my action i therefore created an alternate universe, but not consciously. These alternate universes are created constantly, and create another line in the timeline.

;
So if for example you choose "B"
So that just means the time line is now 'B' , because you didn't make the decision for 'A' that time line doesn't exist.
Is that what your saying?

[WRB852]

no, i am saying that there is an infinite amount of alternate universes, and they don't get canceled out, they just keep going like the one that we are in.

[Dre-Man]

At 3/28/07 02:09 PM, morefngdbs wrote: The universe did not yet exist, so why couldn't the pinhead come from another reality.
Coming from another universe or reality, it was created there.
So this opens up the possibility of an infinate amount of realities, to a point where maybe the future has created the past.

Where exactly did that alternate reality come from? Another reality seperate from that one? Where did that other reality come from exactly? These are questions that nobody can answer scientifically, and why faith has found its place in the hearts of men. There is no end to how deep one can go into the philiosophy of the beginning of time and the physical universe. This is the area where science fails.

Believe it or not, you have faith. Not in a God but in an unexplainable force or reality that is beyond human reason or perception. Therefore you have a religion and a faith, so what you see as atheism is actually not at all a lack of faith or belief.