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At 3/27/07 12:38 PM, hongkongexpress wrote: so now tony blair is warning Iran that Phase 2 would have to be implemented if the Sailors are not released. What do you guys think will be included in this Second Phase? With Troops streched to the brink, and people not registering for the army any time soon. If Phase 2 includes typical Shock and Awe, then where will the needed "surge" of military come from? Will Iran put up a more tougher fight than Iraq, of course, but what do you guys expect will be the levels of resistance?

I'm no military expert so I don't know. all I can say is that it would be a tough fight.

The surge in the military is probably due to the unpopularity of the Iraq war. If the troops are executed or tortured, people would probably see more reason to fight as there would actually be a threat against the country, although it would take time to rebuild itself as you don't exactly sign up the the army, and in 5 seconds you get shipped off.

At 3/29/07 04:21 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote: We have a right to be the world's tyrant, we can tell other nations to do what we want, for threat of military action. We are the most powerful nation, and that somehow makes us able to tell everyone that they can't have nukes, but we can.

Bullshit statement.

At 3/29/07 08:28 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/29/07 04:21 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

Bullshit statement.

Think what you want, but when your prepared to come into reality again, you'll accept it.

At 3/29/07 10:08 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 3/29/07 08:28 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/29/07 04:21 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

Bullshit statement.

Think what you want, but when your prepared to come into reality again, you'll accept it.

When you're prepared to realise that you're not on a higher level than the countries that are being bullied by our tyrant of a government (since you gave up YOUR rights in allowing them to become so powerful) I might just consider your opinions.

At 3/30/07 12:23 AM, Dre-Man wrote: When you're prepared to realise that you're not on a higher level than the countries that are being bullied by our tyrant of a government (since you gave up YOUR rights in allowing them to become so powerful) I might just consider your opinions.

How come no one ever realizes the good things a hegemon or regeional power does until they are gone? Because lets face it, the other countries that are challenging the USA for power dont exactly have stellar records on the human rights scale or any other liberal Western ideology.

Keep hating America and everything it does because you are simply damning your children to live in a world dominated by totalitarianism and hate. And I am being overdramatic but just go ahead and think if you think America is so terrible, whats your other choice that would be so much more stellar, that wouldnt do everything America already does and more.

I cant believe this shit.

Iran is using the people they captured as propaganda tools. What a joke. It really wouldnt suprise me if these Marines really do think they were in Iranian waters. Its not like they are going to be told the whole story. Whatever. It will be interesting to see what they say when they are released and returned.

At 3/30/07 07:39 AM, Demosthenez wrote: I cant believe this shit.

Iran is using the people they captured as propaganda tools. What a joke.

It's not a joke dude, it's against the Geneva Convention. You can't photograph and broadcast the images of uniformed enemy personnel.

Imagine if they had been doing this to US Sailors or Marines! There would be some SERIOUS ish going down by now.

I can't even imagine how the British are taking this, if it was US troops Americans would be so fucking outraged right now. Iran was very calculating in specifically targeting British sailors, Britain is close enough to the US to have this be used as a leverage with the US, but had Iran detained Americans, it would have warranted almost an almost inevitable military response.

The Iranians are scandalous assholes.

It really wouldnt suprise me if these Marines really do think they were in Iranian waters. Its not like they are going to be told the whole story. Whatever. It will be interesting to see what they say when they are released and returned.

I don't think they are going to be released and returned any time soon, Iran is going to exploit this to the best of their ability. They are going to be using them for propaganda and leverage for a while.

Perfect timing too in fact, right when the 2nd session of sanctions are being imposed against them. Now they have another tool for bargaining.

Can you imagine the shit storm that would follow if the USA took Iranians like this?

Now I know someone will try to link this activity to the US storming of an Iranian consulate in Arbil. But the fact remains, it was in the process of becoming a consulate but in fact was not a consulate yet as by admission of an Iraqs foreign minister. And they found a Qods chief in that consulate and were found with a "treasure trove" of documents. So it was completly legal (even though it is a dishonest bending of international law) and completly justified.

But this action by Iran? The Iranians themselves admitted to these sailors initally being in Iraqi waters then changed their story, they have held these soldiers for over a week, they have given no good reason for holding them, their action was completly illegal and their subsequent actions using the soldiers as propaganda tools is illegal, and the Iranians are the only ones who have been acting agressively in this entire process. Iran needs to get real and stop doing this or they will be hit (and hard) with sanctions and become totally isolated from the world. Hope their people like suffering because of the actions of their leaders.

At 3/30/07 07:47 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:

At 3/30/07 07:39 AM, Demosthenez wrote: I cant believe this shit.

Iran is using the people they captured as propaganda tools. What a joke.

It's not a joke dude, it's against the Geneva Convention. You can't photograph and broadcast the images of uniformed enemy personnel.

You mean the way the US did when they invaded Iraq? I'm sure you remember the photos of that Iraqi POW Saddam Hussein?

At 3/30/07 10:39 AM, bcdemon wrote:
You mean the way the US did when they invaded Iraq? I'm sure you remember the photos of that Iraqi POW Saddam Hussein?

Yeah he got hung for some war crimes shit. Did you hear?

How's old Slobodan these days?

At 3/30/07 06:22 AM, Demosthenez wrote:

At 3/30/07 12:23 AM, Dre-Man wrote: When you're prepared to realise that you're not on a higher level than the countries that are being bullied by our tyrant of a government (since you gave up YOUR rights in allowing them to become so powerful) I might just consider your opinions.

How come no one ever realizes the good things a hegemon or regeional power does until they are gone? Because lets face it, the other countries that are challenging the USA for power dont exactly have stellar records on the human rights scale or any other liberal Western ideology.

You seem to give a fuck what other western countries think about the U.S.

Why?

Looks like SOMEONE hasn't been following Mr. George Washington's advice.

Keep hating America and everything it does because you are simply damning your children to live in a world dominated by totalitarianism and hate. And I am being overdramatic but just go ahead and think if you think America is so terrible, whats your other choice that would be so much more stellar, that wouldnt do everything America already does and more.

My other choice is to do whatever I can to try and improve America and to attempt to put it back the way it was supposed to be. A government controlled by the people.

Nobody panic. The French have demanded their release.

I can hear the Iranians laughing.

At 3/30/07 10:55 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 3/30/07 10:39 AM, bcdemon wrote:
You mean the way the US did when they invaded Iraq? I'm sure you remember the photos of that Iraqi POW Saddam Hussein?

Yeah he got hung for some war crimes shit. Did you hear?

How's old Slobodan these days?

What in the fuck does that have to do with breaking Geneva Conventions by photographing and videotaping POWs? That's right, absolutely nothing, thanks for the contribution skip....

At 3/30/07 12:10 PM, Engelsman wrote: Nobody panic. The French have demanded their release.

I can hear the Iranians laughing.

lol, thats a relief

At 3/30/07 12:18 PM, bcdemon wrote:

At 3/30/07 10:55 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 3/30/07 10:39 AM, bcdemon wrote:
You mean the way the US did when they invaded Iraq? I'm sure you remember the photos of that Iraqi POW Saddam Hussein?

Yeah he got hung for some war crimes shit. Did you hear?

How's old Slobodan these days?

What in the fuck does that have to do with breaking Geneva Conventions by photographing and videotaping POWs? That's right, absolutely nothing, thanks for the contribution skip....

He wasn't our prisoner. We apprehended him and handed him over for trial in his former country.

Him being photographed allowed for proof he wasn't tortured.

At 3/30/07 12:23 AM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/29/07 10:08 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 3/29/07 08:28 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/29/07 04:21 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

When you're prepared to realise that you're not on a higher level than the countries that are being bullied by our tyrant of a government (since you gave up YOUR rights in allowing them to become so powerful) I might just consider your opinions.

Tell me when I care what you think.

Seriously, your a 14 year old with zero life expirience outside your parents little world, you have yet to to even know what the World is or how it works.

The US is the sole superpower in the world, we back up our power with military force and have done it. As the US is the sole power and feels that it must protect our allies and beat communism and all that crap, they have used that force.

For Iran to gain controll of any nuclear device is a danger to our power, my life, and US interests. As a citizen, as a human, as a person I have a strong desire to survive and live, and allowing a despotic goverment the use of a weapon that can destroy life within square miles isn't in the option.

If you call that bullying, fine then. If it keeps my life, my rights and our countries power, so be it.

At 3/30/07 01:37 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: He wasn't our prisoner. We apprehended him and handed him over for trial in his former country.

The photo's were taken while he was in your custody.

Him being photographed allowed for proof he wasn't tortured.

So then by all accounts the Iranians can videotape the Brits to prove they are not being tortured? And what about all the pictures the US military releases of people they capture being transported around in hoods, or held in Gitmo? Why is it only our enemies who cannot photo POWs and publish them?

At 3/30/07 12:10 PM, Engelsman wrote: Nobody panic. The French have demanded their release.

I can hear the Iranians laughing.

Iranian reply:
No! And any French involvment would result in WAR!

French:
We surrender!

At 3/30/07 03:13 PM, JoS wrote:

At 3/30/07 01:37 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: He wasn't our prisoner. We apprehended him and handed him over for trial in his former country.

The photo's were taken while he was in your custody.

Him being photographed allowed for proof he wasn't tortured.

So then by all accounts the Iranians can videotape the Brits to prove they are not being tortured? And what about all the pictures the US military releases of people they capture being transported around in hoods, or held in Gitmo? Why is it only our enemies who cannot photo POWs and publish them?

There's a difference between footage of a captured dictator who had killed thousands and foreign troops who were detained illegally and being forced into creatinging Irani propoganda. We didn't have any videos of Saddam Hussein being made to confess things or say any US propaganda did we?

At 3/30/07 03:13 PM, JoS wrote:

At 3/30/07 01:37 PM, LazyDrunk wrote: He wasn't our prisoner. We apprehended him and handed him over for trial in his former country.

The photo's were taken while he was in your custody.

Him being photographed allowed for proof he wasn't tortured.

So then by all accounts the Iranians can videotape the Brits to prove they are not being tortured?

Yes. And then released. If you'd like to argue otherwise, feel free.

And what about all the pictures the US military releases of people they capture being transported around in hoods, or held in Gitmo?

Recreational (read: low lvl troop) photography. Were those soldiers not held accountable?

And, since I know you'll wander into it, no, it's not the same as creating an international military incident.

Why is it only our enemies who cannot photo POWs and publish them?

Because you're stupid and aren't looking at the big picture. They have military personnel that don't belong to them, and are holding them over a period of time.

I suppose you'd be rightin the boat (casket) next to Zarqawi since he mutilates people on camera too. You're gunna think that last sentence was dodging the question, but guess what? THOSE BRITS AREN'T PRISONERS OF WAR.

UNLESS JIHAD REALLY MEANS CONVENTIONAL WAR IN WHICH CASE YOU AND I SHOULD FULLY ARM AND GET THE WAR MACHINE ROLLING.

oops caps, it made it seem like I was yelling. tee hee.

At 3/30/07 01:37 PM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 3/30/07 12:18 PM, bcdemon wrote:

At 3/30/07 10:55 AM, LazyDrunk wrote:

At 3/30/07 10:39 AM, bcdemon wrote:
You mean the way the US did when they invaded Iraq? I'm sure you remember the photos of that Iraqi POW Saddam Hussein?

Yeah he got hung for some war crimes shit. Did you hear?

How's old Slobodan these days?

What in the fuck does that have to do with breaking Geneva Conventions by photographing and videotaping POWs? That's right, absolutely nothing, thanks for the contribution skip....

He wasn't our prisoner. We apprehended him and handed him over for trial in his former country.

Ahh but he was your prisoner. As the occupant in Iraq, you captured him, held him in US custody, hell, even had an American GI checking for lice and dental. Safe to say he was your prisoner.

Him being photographed allowed for proof he wasn't tortured.

Well that's obviously what the Iranians are doing then. And about letting them go afterwards, I guess we'll have to see how their trial goes, hopefully better than Saddams.

At 3/30/07 05:40 PM, Brick-top wrote:
Iranian reply:
No! And any French involvment would result in WAR!

French:
We surrender!

Pfff.....
The French wouldn't just surrender by a threat of war, they don't have the experience of getting killed by them yet.....let em fight one battle.....THEN they'll surrender.....

If Germany threatened war on the other hand......
Germany, owning France in war since 400 BC....

At 3/30/07 02:38 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 3/30/07 12:23 AM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/29/07 10:08 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 3/29/07 08:28 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/29/07 04:21 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

When you're prepared to realise that you're not on a higher level than the countries that are being bullied by our tyrant of a government (since you gave up YOUR rights in allowing them to become so powerful) I might just consider your opinions.

Tell me when I care what you think.

Seriously, your a 14 year old with zero life expirience outside your parents little world, you have yet to to even know what the World is or how it works.

I love it that when you seriously have nothing left to say, you fall back on the old age excuse. If you truly could back up what you've said adequetly, you wouldn't even need to refer to the already known fact of my being 14. You've proven my point of your intelligence level perfectly, thanks.

The US is the sole superpower in the world, we back up our power with military force and have done it. As the US is the sole power and feels that it must protect our allies and beat communism and all that crap, they have used that force.

When the world turns against us for sticking our noses in their business too much, and too often, we'll see who becomes the sole superpower. I'd rather not sacrifice my freedoms for Iraq, or Iran for that matter.

For Iran to gain controll of any nuclear device is a danger to our power, my life, and US interests. As a citizen, as a human, as a person I have a strong desire to survive and live, and allowing a despotic goverment the use of a weapon that can destroy life within square miles isn't in the option.

Oh? And since when has Iran threatened a launch on American soil? Let's just say I'm a Russian citizen, and I believe that America's possession of nuclear weapons is a threat to my well being and my country. I should just, invade, and take what I want, right?

If you call that bullying, fine then. If it keeps my life, my rights and our countries power, so be it.

Actually, your rights are being taken away in the White House, one by one, as we speak. We'll see how long you enjoy your cushy point of view.

Dre-Man. I am gonna ask you a question. I want you to answer it with either Iran or America. Who do you think is a bigger threat to the world, America, or Iran?

At 3/30/07 10:39 AM, bcdemon wrote:

At 3/30/07 07:47 AM, cellardoor6 wrote:

At 3/30/07 07:39 AM, Demosthenez wrote: I cant believe this shit.

Iran is using the people they captured as propaganda tools. What a joke.

It's not a joke dude, it's against the Geneva Convention. You can't photograph and broadcast the images of uniformed enemy personnel.

You mean the way the US did when they invaded Iraq? I'm sure you remember the photos of that Iraqi POW Saddam Hussein?

Saddam Hussein was a political figure, a civilian, not a uniformed member of a military.

And even if he was, we didn't video tape him while forcing him to create pro-American propaganda now did we? But thats what Iran did with the British sailors, they exploited them for propaganda and produced OBVIOUSLY coerced confessions.

What Iran did to the British Sailors would be like us having captured Saddam, then had him read a letter saying "The mighty Americans have captured me and have been very compassionate and merciful, they showed no aggression. Oh and by the way, America was completely justified in coming into Iraq, and President Bush is a swell guy."

At 3/30/07 08:07 PM, uhnoesanoob wrote: Dre-Man. I am gonna ask you a question. I want you to answer it with either Iran or America. Who do you think is a bigger threat to the world, America, or Iran?

That question is far to simple to be effective at anything. A poorly baited trap is what it amounts to.....

Depending on what you constitute as "treat", and what you constitute as "world", and what you constitute as the time frame.......

America.

I love it that when you seriously have nothing left to say, you fall back on the old age excuse. If you truly could back up what you've said adequetly, you wouldn't even need to refer to the already known fact of my being 14. You've proven my point of your intelligence level perfectly, thanks.

Your response is unfounded. The reason people often fall back on such a "crutch" or "excuse" is because it is simply a true statement. There are things you will experience in life that simply cannot be expressed in words, let alone written word over the internet. He's pointing out this fact by mentioning your age, which means you are simply unable to know the things we do by being of an older age, with that all important college experience (it really is quite a great experience).

When 9/11 happened, you were 8/9. When it happened, Mortified and I were 15/16. Therefore our experiences and reactions will be vastly different simply due to age. I can't speak for Mortified, but one of the thoughts that crossed my mind initially was the possibility of being drafted due to the (inevitable) war that would follow.

Anthropologists have done lots of work on memory and reactions to 9/11. The oldest American generation had the lowest reaction to the attack, having been experienced with war, the Depression, the first attack, etc. Terrorism wasn't a new thing to them. The generation most devastated by it seems to have been young adults, mid 20's, to mid 30's. Essentially too young to experience Vietnam, but old enough to be well accustomed to a lack of terrorism in the US. Thus, the biggest shock was felt here.

An older generation has had more experiences with Iran that you have. We simply know the scorecard better. Maybe instead of attacking that position by saying things like, "You've proven my point of your intelligence level perfectly, thanks.", you'd be better off APPRECIATING and UNDERSTANDING that opinion as a way of understanding where your own positions arise from. Remember, debate is not about a win or a loss, it's about taking something away from it, whether that be a new viewpoint, or a better understanding of your own.....

At 3/30/07 07:59 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/30/07 02:38 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 3/30/07 12:23 AM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/29/07 10:08 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

At 3/29/07 08:28 PM, Dre-Man wrote:

At 3/29/07 04:21 PM, MortifiedPenguins wrote:

I love it that when you seriously have nothing left to say, you fall back on the old age excuse. If you truly could back up what you've said adequetly, you wouldn't even need to refer to the already known fact of my being 14. You've proven my point of your intelligence level perfectly, thanks.

C'est la vie.

When the world turns against us for sticking our noses in their business too much, and too often, we'll see who becomes the sole superpower. I'd rather not sacrifice my freedoms for Iraq, or Iran for that matter.

Agreable. But the two don't have to be mutual. It's not a sacrifice of rights to protect American lives and Interests from a threating state.

Oh? And since when has Iran threatened a launch on American soil? Let's just say I'm a Russian citizen, and I believe that America's possession of nuclear weapons is a threat to my well being and my country. I should just, invade, and take what I want, right?

Beyond being tactically possible, plausible or even logical, thats how the world works. But then the idea of MAD comes into play.

Actually, your rights are being taken away in the White House, one by one, as we speak. We'll see how long you enjoy your cushy point of view.

What rights? The Patriot Act is being eaten away part by part by local courts and legislatures it's only a matter of time before the whole thing goes kaput.

Paranoia is a dangerous thing.

My main question is what do you people think letting Iran possess nuclear weapons would solve? Like I said in a previous thread concerning the possibility of Iran getting nukes, even if they did get them, they couldn't use them as a deterrent against an invasion. Nuclear weapons are only a deterrent against nuclear attack. Aside from the fact that the U.S. has made no actions that would show an intent to use nuclear force against Iran, there is no real reason for Iran to be pursuing a nuclear weapons program; having nukes isn't much of a bargaining since most of the world powers (and their allies by extension) have nukes as well.

If for whatever reason Iran was invaded by western forces and Iran decided to use nuclear weapons, there would be no mutually assured destruction. Ignoring the fact that other than arming terrorists with nuclear weapons the only way they'd be able to use their new arsenal would be to either fire on one of their neighbors or on their own soil, Iran would be guilty of unilateral nuclear aggression. This would mean one of two things, 1) Iran gets nuked in retaliation, completely decimating the country, or 2) the world governments mercilessly attack and forcibly disarm the Iranian military, oust the leaders and try them for war crimes, then occupy the country. Either way, Iran stands to loose the most in either scenario. The way I see it, its in Iran's best interest to not obtain nuclear weaponry. While the leaders of the country decide whether to use them, it'll be the Iranian citizens who suffer the worst.

At 3/30/07 03:13 PM, JoS wrote: The photo's were taken while he was in your custody.

I am not sure if a countrys leader counts as a POW. If he does, you need to prove this.

And what about all the pictures the US military releases of people they capture being transported around in hoods, or held in Gitmo? Why is it only our enemies who cannot photo POWs and publish them?

The people we fight are not POW's and are not protected by the Geneva Convention. Duh.

And I just want to invite everyone to a new reality.

If Iran gets nukes, Israel WILL fight them. Its not a matter of if or when, its a stone cold fact they will proactively fight any nation that threatens them. Do I think this is a good idea? Hell no. But I certainly undertand where they are coming from.

All it would take is a few nukes to demolish Israel. Israel cannot afford to take this chance in the slightest so they attack proactively, like they did at Osirak. It will happen again if they feel Iran has weapons. And this will cause a giant shit storm in the Middle East if not a real war (albiet one that is hard as hell to carry out).

So think of disarming Iran as possibly averting a war that in all likelihood will happen if they are not disarmed. We may like to think we can control Israel but we will not in this case. Not at all.