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At 1/17/09 11:25 PM, Grammer wrote: The only things I know about the Norse Gods is what I learned playing Ragnarok Online :]

speaking of which, the Ragnarök (cool; it added the little dots for me!) myth is a fairly interesting one.

At 1/15/09 04:12 AM, dySWN wrote: I kinda just figure that a lot of stories in the Bible are allegorical in nature and not necessarily intended to be taken as literal fact.

God (no pun intended) I hope so.

Sure, there are parts that talk about the history of the early Hebrews, but life is a lot simpler without trying to rationalize Genesis to people as anything other than a metaphor for the evolution of moral conscience in early man (in that some caveman somewhere was the first to decide that "right" and "wrong" existed as concepts and accidentally invented "guilt" and "innocence" as byproducts).

The other thing to consider is many of God's instructions to the Hebrews was for survival in the desert during the Exodus from Egyps.

"There is a tradition that God included 613 commandments in the Torah. Of these, 248 are positive, while 365 are negative.

Many of these commandments, however, deal with the laws of purity and sacrifice, and were thus only applicable when the Holy Temple stood in Jerusalem. Therefore, of all the commandments, only 369 apply today. Of these, 126 are positive, and 243 are negative."

http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Th e_Commandments_Part_One.asp

I just realized that I can't take the Eucharist because I'm allergic to Communion Wafers.

I feel so cheated out of salvation right now.

At 3/11/09 10:52 AM, Drakim wrote: I just realized that I can't take the Eucharist because I'm allergic to Communion Wafers.

I feel so cheated out of salvation right now.

LMAO!

God's all like "No way am I letting that fucker in here!"

So... if you die of anaphylaxis on your first communion... is that like a free pass to heaven, or do you get gypped because you didn't finish the ceremony?

At 3/11/09 02:22 PM, Ravariel wrote:

At 3/11/09 10:52 AM, Drakim wrote: I just realized that I can't take the Eucharist because I'm allergic to Communion Wafers.

I feel so cheated out of salvation right now.

LMAO!

God's all like "No way am I letting that fucker in here!"

So... if you die of anaphylaxis on your first communion... is that like a free pass to heaven, or do you get gypped because you didn't finish the ceremony?

Well, my allergy isn't enough to kill me, just make me suffer greatly. I'll be like those monks that flails their backs to suffer alongside Christ. :s

At 3/11/09 02:22 PM, Ravariel wrote:
God's all like "No way am I letting that fucker in here!"

So... if you die of anaphylaxis on your first communion... is that like a free pass to heaven, or do you get gypped because you didn't finish the ceremony?

Well technically if he doesn't believe, he doesn't get in.

See, God's actually got all these forms that need filing before entrance is granted.
Ghandi forgot to fill form 13/AS-3, so he's stuck swimming the river styx.

Nothin like those Judeo-Christian technicalities to make sure "nice guys finish last", que no?

Hey guys, what do you think of Hinduism. Polytheistic, or Monotheistic with 'saints' being the minor gods? Kali, Ganesha, Vishnu, Brahmah, Shiva etc.

At 1/15/09 03:12 AM, Drakim wrote:

At 1/14/09 05:25 PM, odnarble wrote: Christianity and science can somewhat fit together. There is nothing in the bible, excepting some miracles, that counteract any proven science. If you think I am wrong please give me examples.

Somebody already replied and showed you examples, so I won't bother.

But serious, worldwide flood? Man living inside a whale? ringing any bells?

You mean fish. It clearly says a fish. Don't you know enough about biology that a whale isn't a fish?

Then again, inside a whale would actually most likely be more plausible (though not by much).

At 3/11/09 06:12 PM, Buffalow wrote: Hey guys, what do you think of Hinduism. Polytheistic, or Monotheistic with 'saints' being the minor gods? Kali, Ganesha, Vishnu, Brahmah, Shiva etc.

Not much different from Hero-worship in ancient Greece and Rome.

The apotheosis of important or famous figures I think actually carries through in the idea of "saints". There is a bit of a difference between saints and minor deities though, just as there was a big difference between demi-gods like Aeneas and minor gods like Pan or the nymphs, dryads, and Muses.

I think at least in part the difference lies in conception and "purity" of their blood, with the pecking order of demi-gods and cult heroes towards the bottom.

In terms of modernity, I think pantheistic and polytheistic elements permeate all major religions, even the Abrahamic "monotheistic" ones. Whether this is a by-product of earlier religions being incorporated or simply part of that basic human need to categorize and make gradients, I think the idea of monotheism is somewhat of a misnomer.

Hinduism seems to lie closer to most historical roots in terms of our modern world, I think for that reason it makes more sense to a lot of people. Makes it appear like there is less corruption compared to some of the other religions, Christianity and its 1000s of splits being the biggest example used.

Well Hinduism also worships hundreds of different animals including dogs, rats, monkeys, cows, buffalo, and interestingly enough, snakes. How could you compare this fact to the overall treatment (even distrusting or hating) of certain animals in other religions? (Christians and snakes, Muslims and pigs, Jews and rams)

It's somewhat incorrect to say that Hindus worship animals. Much like the Native Americans, they merely give them respect and venerate (which is different than worship) a few which they believe to have become vessels of their gods in the past (i.e. Vishnu and the Tortoise, Brahman and the Cow). I believe even Kali and Shiva have visited the earth in animal forms, though I can't remember which ones.

You are right, however, that this contrasts greatly with the western culture's basic disdain for all things "animal". Where being like a cow or a turtle might be a sign of respect and admiration in Native AMerican and Hindu culture... to us it is an insult. They have a much broader understanding of what makes animals important. They admire the patience and resilience of the tortoise, we mock it's speed. And this coincides with an even more general disconnect from nature, and the rhythms of the earth. We consider nature to be primitive and dirty, we hide in our concrete jungles and ride in air-conditioned, bucket-seated comfort instead of walking and smelling the air.

And yet, this also allows us amazing advances in science and technology... but at the cost of what?

Hinduism has roughly thirty million gods. They must have a god for everything!

At 3/12/09 09:35 AM, Ericho wrote: Hinduism has roughly thirty million gods. They must have a god for everything!

Technically, they consider them simply facets of Brahman. Just like God, Jehova, Allah, Zeus, Odin and Quetzacoatl are also facets of Brahman. They are the way that it helps people relate to the "holy", because the full truth is too vast and complex for a human to know.

Well I wouldn't say all 'Western' religions don't use animals in their prophesies/stories/myths. Christians and Jews revere both lambs (Jesus was the lamb of God) and lions (story of the Thorn in the Paw). Muslims also mention camels, rams and goats as important animals in the Qu'ran.

Hinduism is one of the few religions that still has temples or parks dedicated to specific animals, such as the temples dedicated to rats, snakes, and monkeys in Delhi, Bangalore and Mumbai.

At 3/12/09 07:51 PM, Buffalow wrote: Well I wouldn't say all 'Western' religions don't use animals in their prophesies/stories/myths. Christians and Jews revere both lambs (Jesus was the lamb of God) and lions (story of the Thorn in the Paw). Muslims also mention camels, rams and goats as important animals in the Qu'ran.

Oh yeah, lions live in Africa, so they'd know about them. I was thinking of tigers, which live in Asia. Hey, don't forget snakes!

At 3/13/09 05:15 PM, Ericho wrote:

Oh yeah, lions live in Africa, so they'd know about them. I was thinking of tigers, which live in Asia. Hey, don't forget snakes!

Is that a joke? Lol, I can't tell.

At 3/11/09 07:31 PM, Ericho wrote: Then again, inside a whale would actually most likely be more plausible (though not by much).

;;;;
I read recently in National Geographic that a small crawling child would be able to crawl down into one of the 2 blow holes of an adult Blue Whale. (why would any kid do that ! !)
ANd the largest blood vessels near the slowly beatting heart would pass a human. (but there's no where to go !)

So not by much was a pretty safe bet there.

At 3/18/09 04:59 PM, morefngdbs wrote:

At 3/11/09 07:31 PM, Ericho wrote: Then again, inside a whale would actually most likely be more plausible (though not by much).

;;;;
I read recently in National Geographic that a small crawling child would be able to crawl down into one of the 2 blow holes of an adult Blue Whale.

I know! We'd have been better off it was originally a whale!

I sense a connection both to hinduism and buddhism and their Karma, as well as to a movie I saw once with something they called "the force". I wonder if there's an actual link between the two religions... it would be fascinating to hear if/how the concepts traveled across such great distances.

this "grand connection" is more centered towards Taoism, which is very vague nad soooo old that its impossible to say what is clear cut and what is unknown in it.

as for these religions having connections you have to consider that, (i know im about to get attacked) most religions have extremely similar laws, rules, gods and ideals. apart from cultural differences i can link pretty much any religion to any other. Naturally western religions are all very intertwined and eastern religions blend together too.

At 3/18/09 06:13 PM, RDSchley wrote:

I sense a connection both to hinduism and buddhism and their Karma, as well as to a movie I saw once with something they called "the force".

this "grand connection" is more centered towards Taoism

So does that mean George Lucas is a Taoist?

I've come to the realization that people seem to expect more of atheist in many things. It's as if we all knew that atheists are much smarter than the general public and should thus "know better".

Think about it. If an atheist actually started bothering people on the street about the non-existance of God, or knocking on people's doors during dinnertime to tell them about the wonders of a godless universe, he would surely be despised and called a militant atheist. Yet, isn't that common practice among many religious people? I'm not saying that doing such things are wrong (indeed, I am very for the marketplace of ideas), but, it's seems to me that people accept this much more when done for religion, as if we are all thinking "we have to be soft on those poor idiots, they don't know better".

If you find a small tract about how belief in God is destructive and dangerous, then I have the strong feeling it's going to be viewed in a much harsher light than if you found a tract saying that you need Jesus to forgive you of your sins. Those are pretty common, but I don't think the atheist equivalent would pass so smoothly.

If an atheist holds a conference where he says that we all need atheism or society as a whole will plunge into despair and harm, then that's going to be viewed as pretty extreme. Yet, I don't doubt that this is something you can hear about atheism fairly often in some churches. Ask any religious person if society can survive without God. Yet, claiming that belief in God is destroying society would make that person a militant fundamentalist atheist.

So, what is really the reason for all this? I guess atheist could take it a sort of compliment that they "should know better", but still, I find it quite hilarious.

What do you think? Am I all off about this, or?

At 5/22/09 07:56 AM, Drakim wrote: I've come to the realization that people seem to expect more of atheist in many things. It's as if we all knew that atheists are much smarter than the general public and should thus "know better".

Think about it. If an atheist actually started bothering people on the street about the non-existance of God, or knocking on people's doors during dinnertime to tell them about the wonders of a godless universe, he would surely be despised and called a militant atheist. Yet, isn't that common practice among many religious people? I'm not saying that doing such things are wrong (indeed, I am very for the marketplace of ideas), but, it's seems to me that people accept this much more when done for religion, as if we are all thinking "we have to be soft on those poor idiots, they don't know better".

Really? Most people I know either make fun of people going door to door "selling" religion, or simply flat-out deny them the time of day and close the door in their faces. People don't seem to like door-to-door tactics unless delicious cookies or charity is involved.

At 5/22/09 12:53 PM, dySWN wrote: Really? Most people I know either make fun of people going door to door "selling" religion, or simply flat-out deny them the time of day and close the door in their faces. People don't seem to like door-to-door tactics unless delicious cookies or charity is involved.

True, but I wasn't really thinking of direct responses to door to door selling of religion, but rather, the response of society as a whole. Heck, if you openly say that you close the door in their faces, some people might be mad and say that you don't have to be rude about it.

At 5/22/09 07:56 AM, Drakim wrote: I've come to the realization that people seem to expect more of atheist in many things. It's as if we all knew that atheists are much smarter than the general public and should thus "know better".

Guilty as charged......but to be fair, I'm only basing that expectation off of what a lot of atheists have themselves told (lectured) me.

Constantly being thrown links about how atheists are smarter, most scientists are atheists, best countries are atheist, etc BY atheists kinda defeats this complaint......since it's self-inflicted.

So, what is really the reason for all this? I guess atheist could take it a sort of compliment that they "should know better", but still, I find it quite hilarious.

The reverse is also true, and applied to these boards especially, is just downright pitiable. Christians are supposed to act the part, and often a nice retaliation to someone like Shaggy being a dickhead is that he's not acting in accordance to his belief. If NG was an accurate sample of society, I would safely say most Christians should know better as well, most here are confrontational, abusive, and generally asshats who will say "fuck you" just about as quick as "praise God".

It's one point I'm sure even Poxpower would agree with me on.

What do you think? Am I all off about this, or?

I think what we expect of people is in many cases determined by how they present themselves.

Christians are all over these boards spouting how they're supposed to be nice and shit while simultaneously spouting some of the foulest language this side of the interwebs.

Atheists are all over these boards spouting how they're supposed to be statistically smarter than theists while simultaneously spouting some of the most idiotic arguments on the other side of the interwebs.

I say just call their bluffs. Ask Christians why they should be pressing their religion if they can't seem to follow the rules themselves. Ask atheists to take an IQ test and compare it to whomever they argue against. It would solve both problems.

At 5/22/09 05:10 PM, Imperator wrote:

At 5/22/09 07:56 AM, Drakim wrote: I've come to the realization that people seem to expect more of atheist in many things. It's as if we all knew that atheists are much smarter than the general public and should thus "know better".

Guilty as charged......but to be fair, I'm only basing that expectation off of what a lot of atheists have themselves told (lectured) me.

Constantly being thrown links about how atheists are smarter, most scientists are atheists, best countries are atheist, etc BY atheists kinda defeats this complaint......since it's self-inflicted.

But that's only you. I feel that this trend goes for a lot of people. Like, when there is an atheist doing something which is common for a religion, such as trying to "convert" somebody, you usually get to hear the "he is just making atheism into another religion". But like, don't they realize how negatively they are setting the bar? Just another religion? You are talking as if religions are bad things, and that the atheist should know better!

I don't think the forcing of views has to do with what a person has to believe.

It has to do with the fact that they're a person.

At 5/22/09 06:08 PM, Drakim wrote:

But that's only you. I feel that this trend goes for a lot of people. Like, when there is an atheist doing something which is common for a religion, such as trying to "convert" somebody, you usually get to hear the "he is just making atheism into another religion". But like, don't they realize how negatively they are setting the bar? Just another religion? You are talking as if religions are bad things, and that the atheist should know better!

Yeah, defnintely can't generalize my points to any major degree.
What's the saying? "The extremists are the loudest" or whatever?
"Silent majority"?

That said, I do my fair share of ragging on those extremists. I've probably said the "you're turning your atheism into that which you hate about theism" comment umpteen times on NG.

The fact that I do it fairly frequently may make one question just how many DO follow my standpoint of atheists 'knowing better' being self-inflicted though.

What you also have to consider is the fact that this is NG, an environment suited to these sorts of discussions. I know my life experiences don't count for the world, but in my own circle of reality religion comes up once a blue moon, and it's initiated by an atheist once every millenia it seems.

All in all, I think it's a minor point though. Just one of the oddities people experience on a daily basis.
Christians say "God damn it" as frequently as anyone, and atheists still utter little phrases like "thank god for small mercies", etc.

Whatever it is about "atheist culture", and I use that phrase with all the hesitance I can, there's defnintely an expression of superiority;
whether that's because the most vocal are people like Dawkins, Hitchens, and other public intellectuals, or because there's a self-perception of atheism being a more "advanced" mindset than theism (AKA "I don't need a god, neener neener neener"), or some other standpoint of it being a sort of high IQ society I think it's there for a reason.

Stereotypes suck, and you do find a shit ton of examples where they don't hold weight, but they're there for a reason. People are generally dumb, but patterns are hard to ignore.

My 5 cents.

At 5/26/09 04:27 AM, Imperator wrote: That said, I do my fair share of ragging on those extremists. I've probably said the "you're turning your atheism into that which you hate about theism" comment umpteen times on NG.

Ah, but, I feel the argument has another weight when said by somebody who isn't a traditional religious fellow. The thing that caught my eye is when somebody who is religions and precumably thinks religion is a good thing goes on and says "your atheism is just another religion". I honestly don't see the negative part of saying that, unless you think religion is something bad.

To me, it's like the democrats and republicans telling the independants that "your views is just another political direction". Either, they are insulting themselves or they had a higher opinion about the non-organized direction the independants had before.

The fact that I do it fairly frequently may make one question just how many DO follow my standpoint of atheists 'knowing better' being self-inflicted though.

What you also have to consider is the fact that this is NG, an environment suited to these sorts of discussions. I know my life experiences don't count for the world, but in my own circle of reality religion comes up once a blue moon, and it's initiated by an atheist once every millenia it seems.

Very true. Usually from what I've heard, most religions disscussion happens when somebody religious oversteps the confort zone of viewpoints, such as insisting that everybody pray before eating when invited as guests. I really can't visualize an atheist just out of the blue starting to talk about how God doesn't exist. That's usually reserved for forums of debate, like this.

All in all, I think it's a minor point though. Just one of the oddities people experience on a daily basis.
Christians say "God damn it" as frequently as anyone, and atheists still utter little phrases like "thank god for small mercies", etc.

I always found that funny. News stations and blogs loves to point out how even the atheists says various sayings with "God" in them. There is not so much focus on that Christians actually use their Lord and Savior as a cursing word.

Whatever it is about "atheist culture", and I use that phrase with all the hesitance I can, there's defnintely an expression of superiority;

Indeed. I guess it comes from the minority status. In a country of atheism, theist are problaby going to be smarter than avarage and part of the intellectual elite.

Necroposting!

I just want to say to everybody who has argued against me that "Prayer isn't asking God to do something for you, it's about spiritual connection and whatnot. That's why you can't test prayer, it's not a phone to room-service. No religion thinks that."

To all such people, fuck you to hell.

That is all.