Is "for the good of the many" dead?

[williambgr]

I was sitting in History class, the professor was lecturing on the construction of the American Constitution, and the values of the creators. She brought up the common value of the founding fathers belief in public/civic virtue. That all government was in place to benefit the country as a whole. She flowed with a statement,
"Today we don't believe in public/civic virtue anymore, we believe that the good of the individual represent the good of the state. When I vote, I vote for politicians that will do everything they can to benefit me directly and that is how our government functions today. If it's good for me it's good for the country vs. the Founding Fathers belief in actions that were for the good for everyone within the state."

To put my reaction mildly, my jaw dropped. My first thought was, "yeah, she's right. As horrible as that is she is speaking the god awful truth!"

I consider myself a Humanist. People are people, I love being American but the Human Race comes first. What my history professor said was the direct counter-thesis for my basic beliefs and values. Looking at in hind site I 've never understood how politicians could make laws that benefit a tiny group at the expense of the whole and sleep at night. Benefit the rich, benefit this industry or that. Spend millions of dollars to appease every silly little lobby group with a mission to save kittens, or save a eyesore, run down, abandoned warehouse, within which some unimportant dead bigwig sneezed, as a historic landmark. But I digress.

Is this belief that it's ok to embrace self-centered pure individualism the reason we can't pass laws in congress? Everyone in congress has obligation to a group of individuals to grab as much as they can get at the expense of everyone else. (you wonder that it's nearly impossible to logically close down military bases that the military doesn't want anymore when the representative knows it'll hurt their voters.)

Government has always been prone to fall into the quagmire of dirty deals and blind eyes. But for years now they aren't just playing with their own hands, politicians have stolen there children’s cards as well. For the good of the individual. Trillions of dollars in debt and growing. Hell just the war in Iraq will hit a Trillion dollars before it's done, and though I don't think Bush is the worst president we've ever had (history has some stinkers) Keeping the war expenses off the books is absurd, and I blame his advisors for doing something so foolishly transparent. You can edit out the unpopular expenses out of the budget. If you do it isn't a budget, it's a pipe dream. Again sorry a little beyond the point.

Conclusion: I may be a crazy liberal with a few conservative ideals here but; Are there any people out there who still thinks like me? That the good of the nation and humanity as a whole should be considered before the individual (I say before, not instead of)
Or conversely am I an idiot who should take my ideals and shove um...?

[penis-plant]

the human race must be brought to a collective consciousness. no induvidualism, because that is weak. one mind. one voice. the borg are the perfect beings. the only way to prevail is to be asimilated to the borg.

[JakeHero]

At 2/24/07 02:07 AM, williambgr wrote: I consider myself a Humanist.

Putting faith in humanity is foolish.

[JakeHero]

At 2/24/07 11:00 PM, SevenSeize wrote: Putting faith in humanity is optimistic. The legnth of those expectations are often foolish.

You'll quickly lose that optimism after reading Herman Melville, Edgar Allan Poe and Nathaniel Hawthorne.

[Draconias]

At 2/24/07 11:04 PM, JakeHero wrote:

At 2/24/07 11:00 PM, SevenSeize wrote: Putting faith in humanity is optimistic. The legnth of those expectations are often foolish.

You'll quickly lose that optimism after reading Herman Melville, Edgar Allan Poe and Nathaniel Hawthorne.

If you read the works of the insane and then become insane, does that mean they were right all along? No. It just means they tricked you into believing what they told you. They can be wrong.

I disagree about the claim that modern Americans only rely on an individual perspective because humans in general have always thought in this way. We profess group-support sometimes, especially in philosophical or idealistic documents such as the Constitution, but it is the natural way of life to think of things with reference to yourself.

Why should I care if the world warms? Either I or my children will suffer. Why should I care how much the rich are taxed? I may be one of them in my lifetime. Why should I care what happens to the environment? I might be poisoned or deprived because of it.

It's how the human mind works because we are individuals.

[troubles1]

At 2/24/07 11:15 PM, Draconias wrote

If you read the works of the insane and then become insane, does that mean they were right all along? No. It just means they tricked you into believing what they told you. They can be wrong.
happens to the environment? I might be poisoned or deprived because of it.

It's how the human mind works because we are individuals.

Good points but they contradict each other if you look at it like this, Any person who would read a certain author or use anything not conjured up buy there own mind , and act on it alone then that is not acting like a individual AT least that is what I get by your definition, that they would be going against human nature.
I happen to like the work both Edgar Allan Poe and Nathaniel Hawthorne did, yet they don't cause me to look At the world as completely dark they just make me a more rounded person.

as far as the topic is concerned I think trying to be a individual and seeking to create what you would consider a healthy environment is a good thing , as long as you are not insane and your ideals and values are not completely without reason.
;
off the topic what is up with the Catcher and the Rye, and being associated with insane people?

[penis-plant]

I am Locutus of Borg. Resistance is futile. Your life, as it has been, is over. From this time forward you will service us.

induvidualism is infirior. only when there is one mind shall there be cooperation. the borg will prevail. resistance is futile

[williambgr]

At 2/24/07 10:46 PM, JakeHero wrote:

At 2/24/07 02:07 AM, williambgr wrote: I consider myself a Humanist.

Putting faith in humanity is foolish.

You misunderstand my meaning when I say I'm a Humanist. I belief in the value of every individual. It doesn't mean I trust them. I don't trust the average individual to make the right choice for everyone, not even myself in the many areas in which I am uninformed.

I also believe that different people have more value then others, and I base this on how much the benefit(or hinder) the entirety of humanity. Einstein, Newton, even Mother Teresa, and Malcom X, all examples of people who in their way I believe improved the world they live in by think of more people then just themselves. I'm not saying, "Join the Borg" which I knew somebody would have to post, and I let ya cause you can go too far in this direction. I don't want people in my country to become atomatons and kamikazes for the state. I'm saying a lot more philanthropistic thought in our country wouldn't hurt.

Another thing I'm saying is I really don't like the thought of our politicians acting on behalf of whoever has the cash/votes. Many Citizens voting on representatives who would gladly rob their neighbors and offer the citizens of their county/state a cut of the spoils makes me sick. Give me a representative who will look after their citizens responsibly, for example; Rudy Giuliani(R), and Barack Obama(D). Well at least in my opinion but not at all my main point ^_^

I don't care how people do it but I'd be thrilled if more people especially young people like myself would get out their and try to change the things they don't like. I don't support protests and activities like that, I'm saying working a little extra to make their community nice to be in threw 'volontary' community service. Someone could promote community interest in the space program, or if that's really not your thing just vote for someone who has the good of yourself AND your neighbors, AND the people in other states, AND even people in other countries. I'm saying don't vote for the guy who lowers your taxes or protects the rain forest. Vote for the guy who won't support taxes that don't treat you fairly, will protect the rain forest if it appears the best solution to problems of the day. Vote on people who see the many problems in the world and are smart enough to make educated guesses as the the results of their actions.

[semaGdniM]

Even though we're in huge debt, our capitalist governement can still function fine.

There has been a lot of talk lately amongst citizens about how our country is ignoring the poor, working and middle class. The gap between rich to poor is the worse its ever been and the governement seems to be ignoring our pleas for change.

I am not saying that we don't need to change this. Our country was founded on the concept of equality and if things continue we may forget our humble roots.

That being said, Americans need to count their blessings. We are called the richest nation in the world. That is not a reference to our national income. It means our average standard of living.

There is no other country where people of small incomes still have a home, a car, a tv, a computer and many other small luxuries we take for granted. Yes we are undergoing some problems but every nation faces adversity. This is the time in which instead of insulting our country we should be supporting it and doing our best to make changes.

[Elfer]

At 2/24/07 10:46 PM, JakeHero wrote:

At 2/24/07 02:07 AM, williambgr wrote: I consider myself a Humanist.

Putting faith in humanity is foolish.

I believe that the fact that this is a popular opinion shows some hope that there's a lot of people out there who aren't all bad.

[ObsessedOne]

At 2/24/07 11:00 PM, SevenSeize wrote:

At 2/24/07 10:46 PM, JakeHero wrote:

At 2/24/07 02:07 AM, williambgr wrote: I consider myself a Humanist.

Putting faith in humanity is foolish.:

Putting faith in humanity is optimistic . The legnth of those expectations are often foolish.

excactly