Atheisim and morality

[FUNKbrs]

How do atheists justify morality? if there is no god, and no judgement in the after life, why be a moral person? so what if you leave the world in total disarray, youre gonna be dead and in no shape to care, right?

[RUDE]

At 4/28/03 02:21 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: How do atheists justify morality? if there is no god, and no judgement in the after life, why be a moral person? so what if you leave the world in total disarray, youre gonna be dead and in no shape to care, right?

Right!

[Nirvana13666]

Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of gods. This absence of belief generally comes about either through deliberate choice, or from an inherent inability to believe religious teachings which seem literally incredible. It is not a lack of belief born out of simple ignorance of religious teachings.
If God is essentially non-detectable, it must therefore be the case that he does not interact with our universe in any way. Many atheists would argue that if God does not interact with our universe at all, it is of no importance whether he exists or not. A thing which cannot even be detected in principle does not logically exist.
Atheists believe it could be that God is detectable in principle, and that we merely cannot detect him in practice. However, if the Bible is to be believed, God was easily detectable by the Israelites. Surely he should still be detectable today? Why has the situation changed?
Things do not exist merely because they have been defined to do so. We know a lot about the definition of Santa Claus -- what he looks like, what he does, where he lives, what his reindeer are called, and so on. But that still doesn't mean that Santa exists.

[Nirvana13666]

At 4/28/03 02:21 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: How do atheists justify morality? if there is no god, and no judgement in the after life, why be a moral person? so what if you leave the world in total disarray, youre gonna be dead and in no shape to care, right?

The English word "atheism" has a literal meaning, which is simply non-theism

Christians have been systematically rewriting history in order to pretend that Christianity versus Atheism is symbolic of Good versus Evil. We are never allowed to forget evil atheists (ex. Stalin), but evil Christians receive a distinctly different treatment. Their crimes are minimized or forgotten, and their religious affiliations are either concealed or misrepresented as atheism.
You don't need faith in God in order to be moral.

Humanist morality is universal, while Biblical morality is not.

[RUDE]

I just don't understand how there can be a God when there is more evil in the world than good. Furhtermore if he is so powerful, couldn't he tell who really belives in him or not. I'm sure that a lot of people pray and read the bible just because they want to go in this so called "heaven" when they die, their prayers don't come from the heart. As far as the argument goes about man trying to play god, if god exists don't you think that he wouldn't want us to do such things as cloning and the such? The point I am trying to make is that one can argue that he gave us the ability(if he does exist) to use our brains and we're using them.

[lapslf]

At 4/28/03 02:21 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: How do atheists justify morality? if there is no god, and no judgement in the after life, why be a moral person? so what if you leave the world in total disarray, youre gonna be dead and in no shape to care, right?

Does the word consience (or however the fuck you spell it) mean anything to you? You don't need a god to judge what's good or wrong.

[PreacherJ]

At 4/28/03 02:50 PM, Dont_ask wrote: I just don't understand how there can be a God when there is more evil in the world than good. Furhtermore if he is so powerful, couldn't he tell who really belives in him or not. I'm sure that a lot of people pray and read the bible just because they want to go in this so called "heaven" when they die, their prayers don't come from the heart. As far as the argument goes about man trying to play god, if god exists don't you think that he wouldn't want us to do such things as cloning and the such? The point I am trying to make is that one can argue that he gave us the ability(if he does exist) to use our brains and we're using them.

No, no no no... We aren't turning this into a "God doesn't exist" forum. There are already too many of those. The point of this thread is to determine whether or not athiests can have morals. I think they can. I'm an athiest, and I think I'm a pretty good person (ask around if you happen to think that this is a biased answer). Your moral structure doesn't have to revolve around you cringing in fear and not doing anything because of a big invisible dude in the sky. I try to be a good person to be a good person. Crazy, ain't it? I don't believe in God, so does that mean I'm going to start killing and stealing and raping? No- because I just don't want to be a dick.

[JMHX]

At 4/28/03 04:23 PM, Veggiemeal wrote:

At 4/28/03 02:21 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

Does the word consience (or however the fuck you spell it) mean anything to you? You don't need a god to judge what's good or wrong.

Hear, hear!

[Shih]

At 4/28/03 04:46 PM, PreacherJ wrote:
No, no no no... We aren't turning this into a "God doesn't exist" forum. There are already too many of those. The point of this thread is to determine whether or not athiests can have morals. I think they can. I'm an athiest, and I think I'm a pretty good person (ask around if you happen to think that this is a biased answer). Your moral structure doesn't have to revolve around you cringing in fear and not doing anything because of a big invisible dude in the sky. I try to be a good person to be a good person. Crazy, ain't it? I don't believe in God, so does that mean I'm going to start killing and stealing and raping? No- because I just don't want to be a dick.

He's got a good point. If you look at most religions the main thing does seem to be don't be a jerk. The particulars may change but the general rules are similar.

[RUDE]

At 4/28/03 04:46 PM, PreacherJ wrote: The point of this thread is to determine whether or not athiests can have morals.

Well if that's what you are asking then there is no doubt in my mind that we do. I haven't told my mother or my grandmother that I don't believe in god because I wouldn't like to see their reactions and I definitely wouldn't want them forcing me to in any way to beleive.

[Shih]

I'd say an atheist, real ones who really don't believe in the spiritual not just people who are doing it out of a sense of rebellion, would almost have to have a stronger sense of morality than the religious.
After all a religious individual can be forgiven for their transgressions by god. The only one who can redeem an atheist is themselves.

[PreacherJ]

Word, ver. 2.7

[RUDE]

And look at all of the conflicts that occur based on religion. There is a conflict between Hindus and Muslims, Muslims and Jews and the sequence goes on. God was part of the reason why planes were flown into 3 buildings and an empty feild.

[Shih]

It gets even more ridiculous when you consider that the major western religions, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism, all worship the same god just in different ways.

[PreacherJ]

Interersting point that I was in the process of making, but you beat me to it. I need to learn how to type quickly without looking at the keyboard. Any thoughts on the morality of a world without religion?

[TheShrike]

Shih, Nirvana~ Kudos!
(Or as Preacher_J would say, 'Word')

Just because someone doesn't belive in any gods, it does not mean that they are inherently evil or ill-spirited.

It's silly to assume lack of religion means anything other than lack of faith.

[TheShrike]

Morality in a world without religion~

Golden Rule.

[FUNKbrs]

At 4/28/03 05:55 PM, PreacherJ wrote: Interersting point that I was in the process of making, but you beat me to it. I need to learn how to type quickly without looking at the keyboard. Any thoughts on the morality of a world without religion?

Religions have churches and priests to tell believers what good is and what it isnt. Who would make these decisions in an atheistic society? We all know we couldnt trust the government to make these decisions; they just have too much to lose if morality and policy collide. So, how do atheists define morality if they dont have a church to do it for them?

[Shih]

Thanks for the props Shrike. I'm new here and all so it's good to know I'm not just making an ass out of myself.
I do however have to say I'm certainly not knocking the religious. Faith is a wonderful thing, especially these days when it's so hard to maintain.

[Shih]

At 4/28/03 06:00 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:
Religions have churches and priests to tell believers what good is and what it isnt. Who would make these decisions in an atheistic society? We all know we couldnt trust the government to make these decisions; they just have too much to lose if morality and policy collide. So, how do atheists define morality if they dont have a church to do it for them?

Same as in an anarchist society, the individual would be responsible for their own actions.

[PreacherJ]

At 4/28/03 06:00 PM, FUNKbrs wrote:

At 4/28/03 05:55 PM, PreacherJ wrote:

Religions have churches and priests to tell believers what good is and what it isnt. Who would make these decisions in an atheistic society? We all know we couldnt trust the government to make these decisions; they just have too much to lose if morality and policy collide. So, how do atheists define morality if they dont have a church to do it for them?

Once again, you're saying that I need a big invisible man to scare me into being a nice guy. Didn't your parents use any other method of geeting you to be a good person other than threatening you with the wrath of God? Morals come from a host of places other than religion, such as parenting, personal experiences, and how you percieve the world. Nobody should "not do something" on the basis of "God said not to" alone. If you don't kill a man simply because God said not to, you're still a bad person, and you're just afraid of suffering his wrath.

[TheShrike]

At 4/28/03 06:00 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: Religions have churches and priests to tell believers what good is and what it isnt. Who would make these decisions in an atheistic society? We all know we couldnt trust the government to make these decisions; they just have too much to lose if morality and policy collide. So, how do atheists define morality if they dont have a church to do it for them?

Preacher put it well when he said you're still saying that we need the holy ghost to make us behave.

I don't know about you, but I got my morals and ethics from the same people who supplied my DNA.

In an atheistic society, there would still be laws. Kill, go to jail, possibly be killed in return. Also, Karma is a real thing insofar that if you act like an ass to everyone, no one will treat you with respect.

~Golden Rule

(Total Non-sequiter, but my new word for the day is "puppyfucker")

[Shih]

I wasn't saying physical consequences for your actions wouldn't be there, just that you'd have to provide your own moral judgements. The anarchist comparison was just the most relevant one I could come up with.

[TheShrike]

Both were responses to FUNK

[Spike-J-Wolfwood]

At 4/28/03 02:21 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: How do atheists justify morality? if there is no god, and no judgement in the after life, why be a moral person? so what if you leave the world in total disarray, youre gonna be dead and in no shape to care, right?

I have always seen being an atheist as a responsibility. I view religion as a collection of moral lessons and guidelines set in place early on in order to bring order to the people. I believe that we as a global society are close to passing the point where we need to justify good deeds and compassion with god. I am moral because it is a necessary part of an organized society. As fundamental as love. I don’t need the bible to feel love and I don’t need religion to tell me what is right and what is wrong.

[Jonas]

I would point out that Santa did exist.

On the point of morals, it depends on the atheists, so adopt a "why not" attutide of their beliefs, and acts "morally" just cause.

[Poutine-boy]

I approve of society's views and laws, therefore I obey them and enjoy what rights I am given and what society can provide me. I fear consequences of lawbreaking actions, therefore I don't go killing for fun, society will punish me.

[Shih]

If the only reason you obey the rules set down by society is because you fear punishment that's not really the moral action to take, it is the ethical one, morals have to be internal rules not external ones.

[TheMDude]

(Didn't read the entire thread, sorry if I repeat stuff.)

Can somebody tell me when Christians copyrighted and took the rights to being 'moral?'

Just because somebody doesn't believe in God doesn't mean that they can't be good people. The church fucked people's brains over good, didn't it?

[TheShrike]

At 4/28/03 08:54 PM, zMDude wrote: Can somebody tell me when Christians copyrighted and took the rights to being 'moral?'

AMEN, BROTHER!!!!

Word.