i'd be on them for that if they take the PROFIT. If they use the oil to pay for the rebuilding of Iraq, i have no problem. If they take the oil for the substanstion of America, then we have a problem.

At 4/27/03 01:39 PM, Jiperly wrote: i'd be on them for that if they take the PROFIT. If they use the oil to pay for the rebuilding of Iraq, i have no problem. If they take the oil for the substanstion of America, then we have a problem.

How would they use it to pay for the rebuilding of Iraq.

At 4/27/03 12:11 AM, FUNKbrs wrote: Thats right! I woke up this morning and the first thing I thought was "I sure am glad I'm a whole lot better than everyone else because I was born in America!"

Well, I'm glad you're being sarcastic with that, becuase I feel there are a lot of Americans who I wouldn't be surprised if they actually said that. Yes, I consider the current patriotic attitude to be that sickening.

Get real man, politics is a dirty business, and when we want to, nobody plays dirtier than the US.

Elephant or donkey, the playing field is always dirtier than the homeless. Only difference is how to portray that filth. Can't ever remove it, but rather only hope to minimize it.

Why wont you just admit that Bush is doing his best with a situation that has been volatile since before the birth of Christ?

Bush is doing his best at achieveing his goal. But what is his goal? His stated goal is dim at best. His speculated goal(s) is brighter.

At 4/27/03 10:57 AM, Jiperly wrote: also, if the colliation leaves, they leave behind both a country that WILL have a civil war, and they'll be leaving behind Bush's dream of a democratic Iraq.

What's wrong with a civil war? We had one. Things turned out just fine.

Whats so funny to me is that for some weird reason the Iraqi's now feel that they are able to do anything that they want without anyones help, when in the first place they needed(and wanted) our help in overthrowing Sadamm. They truly have some nerve. They also think they can rebuild everything on their own when their hospitals are so crap and overrun as it is.

At 4/28/03 12:48 PM, Dont_ask wrote: Whats so funny to me is that for some weird reason the Iraqi's now feel that they are able to do anything that they want without anyones help, when in the first place they needed(and wanted) our help in overthrowing Sadamm. They truly have some nerve. They also think they can rebuild everything on their own when their hospitals are so crap and overrun as it is.

Lets not underestimate the Iraqi people here. This is the "cradle of civilization", Babylon. These people INVENTED government. They also have shitloads of the worlds highest in demand resource, oil. If they had used their ingenuity and resources to make civil improvements instead of constant wars with Iran and Kuwait we would need their help, not the other way around.

As the United States talked about taking the reins for six months or more before handing over power to Iraqis. Many Iraqis in Baghdad said the first taste of freedom had been too sweet to give up already.

At 4/28/03 12:48 PM, Dont_ask wrote: Whats so funny to me is that for some weird reason the Iraqi's now feel that they are able to do anything that they want without anyones help, when in the first place they needed(and wanted) our help in overthrowing Sadamm. They truly have some nerve. They also think they can rebuild everything on their own when their hospitals are so crap and overrun as it is.

I get what you are saying but you can't blame them for being afraid. They don't know what our plans are for their government and it isn't fair in their eyes that they aren't informed.

At 4/28/03 01:48 PM, Nirvana13666 wrote: I get what you are saying but you can't blame them for being afraid. They don't know what our plans are for their government and it isn't fair in their eyes that they aren't informed.

But they must have put two and two together, I mean, we did get rid of a dictator who they thought would never be removed, and now that we have done it they want us to leave. Its too soon their safety is still in danger.

NOBODY wants the US in Iraq... The Iraqis and most of the international community wants the US out as soon as possible, and thats a fact! Why doesnt the US do a favor to us all and just leave Iraqi people?
It is true the Iraqi need help to rebuild and have a govt... but certainly NOT help from the US... PULEASE just let smarter leaders from more honest countries help the suffering Iraqis! NOBODY WANTS USA in Iraq... Iraqis HATE American soldiers out there in Iraq! People from Iraq are POOR, and not STUPID... so just leave Iraqi oil alone and GO AWAY!

At 4/28/03 02:14 PM, Mjollnir wrote: NOBODY wants the US in Iraq... The Iraqis and most of the international community wants the US out as soon as possible, and thats a fact! Why doesnt the US do a favor to us all and just leave Iraqi people?
It is true the Iraqi need help to rebuild and have a govt... but certainly NOT help from the US... PULEASE just let smarter leaders from more honest countries help the suffering Iraqis! NOBODY WANTS USA in Iraq... Iraqis HATE American soldiers out there in Iraq! People from Iraq are POOR, and not STUPID... so just leave Iraqi oil alone and GO AWAY!

The US have got to stay in Iraq and put up a democratic government. Eithert that or give it to the UN. The Internationasl Community doesn't care which.

At 4/28/03 02:14 PM, Mjollnir wrote: NOBODY wants the US in Iraq... The Iraqis and most of the international community wants the US out as soon as possible, and thats a fact! Why doesnt the US do a favor to us all and just leave Iraqi people?

But what if Sadamm and his sons are still alive? But by the time this is revealed, we would have left by then.

At 4/28/03 02:28 PM, Dont_ask wrote: But what if Sadamm and his sons are still alive? But by the time this is revealed, we would have left by then.

ya, but don't forget, the truth/propgranda(if dropping millions of leaflets from the sky depicting saddam as pure evil isn't propgranda, then what is?) - no way will the Iraq people allow him to regain power- not without a military to force himself back in, at least.

also, we need to keep the troops in there to keep the peace- the genvena convention demands it(although the colliation still isn't) and considering how they used the geneva convention against Saddam, it surely must prove what high reguard they have for it. They just cannot go in, destory everything, and go out, or millions will die from stravation alone.

At 4/28/03 03:50 PM, Jiperly wrote:

ya, but don't forget, the truth/propgranda(if dropping millions of leaflets from the sky depicting saddam as pure evil isn't propgranda, then what is?) - no way will the Iraq people allow him to regain power- not without a military to force himself back in, at least.

When did we drop leaflets depicting Sadamm as evil? The Iraqi people knew that he was evil in the first place they didn't need us reinforcing that. As far as them not allowing him to regain power I think that that is an absolutely fabricated statement. One order and Sadamm could have hundreds and thousands of them killed in a heartbeat. We both know that.

thats when he had his armys- now he doesn't. what, is he going to go in the streets and personally kill each person who defys him now?

i'm currently looking for an article on the leavelets falling from the sky depicting Saddam as evil

Who said everyone knew Saddam was evil?? Come on! Walk around on their shoes dude! Iraqis had no contact to outside world... All media around them said USA was evil (actually the US govt IS evil in many, many ways)... For the last 10 years the US dropped bombs on iraq and killed Iraqis... How the hell are they supposed to know Saddam was evil? How the hell is a brainwashed Iraqi citizen (who lost a wife or a brother due to American bombing) supposed to consider America good and Saddam evil? Oh wait... actually nobody should call things "GOOD" and "EVIL" like a 6 yr old child... And certainly NOT call USA "GOOD"... But anyway... my point is... You are all acting as if Iraqis knew stuff that you think is obvious... but guess what: Ppl around the world are different, with different situations, cultures, way of thinking... DAMN, many of you Americas can't notice that you are not the center of the world and that the rest of the world is different from your backyard! You Americans really don't realize that the reason why so many terrorrists try to kill ya is cuz you're so damn self-centered (And don't come with that "freedom" and "helping other coutries" crap cuz i don't buy it)!

I really wish people wouldn't throw the word 'evil' around all the time. It makes for opinionated speech.

*sigh* In case you don't know, the Iraqis aren't anti-American for no reason. In the past, America has purposefully caused the deaths of more Iraqi people than Saddam ever has in his reign (and that does not include this war). I'm talking about 500,000 Iraqi children alone in just the tainted water incident. And then we caused the deaths of more in the Iranian Conflict (by giving weapons of mass desctruction to Iran and to Saddam---oh, yeah, we were the ones who gave Saddam the weapons to begin with). And now we're causing more deaths in this war. Of course, none of this is shown on American TV. *sigh* -_-

Here are some links if you're interested:

Thomas J. Nagy, "The Secret Behind the Sanctions, How the U.S. Intentionally Destroyed Iraq's Water Supply," The Progressive.
http://www.progressive.org/0901/nagy0901.html

William Blum, "Anthrax for Export,
U.S. Companies Sold Iraq the Ingredients for a Witch's Brew," The Progressive
http://www.progressive.org/0901/anth0498.html

Have fun! ^_^

At 4/29/03 12:30 AM, Mjollnir wrote: Who said everyone knew Saddam was evil?? Come on!

Well apart from Sadamm loyalists/groups, yes, I think that the Iraqi people did know that he was "evil".

At 4/29/03 03:51 AM, Ninja_Scientist wrote: *sigh* In case you don't know, the Iraqis aren't anti-American for no reason. In the past, America has purposefully caused the deaths of more Iraqi people than Saddam ever has in his reign (and that does not include this war).

*sighs* What people like you fail to realise is that President George W Bush hasn't been in power throught the history of America, different presidents come and go some making good decisions and others making not so good ones, he has no power whatsoever over that. If anything he is trying to right the wrongs of our past with these countries.

At 4/29/03 11:21 AM, Dont_ask wrote: *sighs* What people like you fail to realise is that President George W Bush hasn't been in power throught the history of America, different presidents come and go some making good decisions and others making not so good ones, he has no power whatsoever over that. If anything he is trying to right the wrongs of our past with these countries.

Yea, it would be different if you critized the way hes trying to right the wrongs of past presidents. Say what ya will about Bush but he has balls, do you really think Al Gore would have spear headed the terroism issue like Bush.

*sighs* What people like you fail to realise is that President George W Bush hasn't been in power throught the history of America, different presidents come and go some making good decisions and others making not so good ones, he has no power whatsoever over that. If anything he is trying to right the wrongs of our past with these countries.

You really think I don't know that? *sigh* I'm sick of having to explain things to 11th grade boys. OK, here we go. I was explaining some of the reasons why Iraq hates us. What many people like you fail to realize is that Bush and America aren't the same thing. The Iraqi people don't hate America just because of Bush. They hate America because of all the crap America has done to them in the past. Now where do you see the word, "Bush," in that sentence?

Also, the Bush family has been doing crap to other countries as well as our own for years. For example, Bush Sr. supported the exact terrorist that later became the Taliban. If you read anything about the Iranian Conflict in one of the links I gave (which if you mentioned Bush at all, then you probably didn't), then you could see some similarites between the two. While Bush Sr. was head of the CIA during his reign, he supported certain terrorist groups in Afghanistan with weapons and millions of dollars so that they could train and fund more terrorists to battle the Zuraki Government for us. This is another example of "funding one group to fight another for us" that the US is so infamous for (just like they did in the Iranian Conflict). Anyway, without this support from Bush Sr., the Taliban would not have had the funding to attack the US later on 9/11, in fact, they may not have existed at all. One of the only men who tried to discuss this issue on TV (named Jeremy Glick, whose father died in 9/11), was violently kicked off The O'Reilly Factor by Bill O'Reilly himself, because O'Reilly had nothing to say to counter the man's arguments, and in his humiliation, he blew up on the man. The show was never aired because it was "bad publicity" for the show. See the recent edition of Harpers Magazine for more information on the topic.

Also, to counter your "Bush is righting the wrongs" argument, it doesn't stop with Bush Sr. Bush himself actually temporarily halted the FBI investigations surrounding the attack on 9/11 to try to finish up business deals with the Taliban. Basically the Bush administration was trying to do business with the Taliban for an oil pipeline through Afghanistan. This pipeline would lead into Central Asian oil supplies whose trade was is owned by Russia. This would save money on US oil consumption by allowing us not to have to purchase our oil through Russia. However, it involved us needing a pipeline that would wind up running through Afghanistan. This is why Bush was trying to make bargains with the Taliban before 9/11 (which was OK), however, he tried to continue them after 9/11 and even temporarily halted FBI investigations to do so. In fact, if the Taliban had agreed to the negotiations for an oil pipeline, we may not have gone to war with them at all.

"...negotiators said to the Taliban, you have a choice. You have a carpet of gold, meaning an oil deal, or a carpet of bombs."

So much for the "we will not negotiate with terrorists" image. lol. Well, needless to say, the Taliban refused the pipeline and we went to war with them.

Also, both the Bin Laden and Bush family had been business partners for years in the Caryle Group (which specializes in war materials, weapons, etc.). In fact, Bush got into the Caryle Group after meeting Salem Bin Laden (Osama's older brother) while in the airforce in Texas. This group is actually how Bush made his first million. So, this means the the Bush and Bin Laden family made money off of every war/military action the US made. This isn't the problem. The problem is that after 9/11, the Bin Laden family pulled out of the firm to avoid criticizm for making millions off a war that their son was the partial cause of. However, the Bush family didn't, even though Bush Sr. was the one who funded the terrorists to begin with. So, the Bush family continues to make millions off all the wars America participates in (which I don't find it surprising that we've been going to so many lately).

There, now I'm talking bad about Bush and his "helpful ways." I'm done now. Heh heh heh.

Well, while I'm at it. I might as well throw in another reason why I mentioned the Iranian Conflict in my first post.

This war is a result of the Iranian Conflict, which the US got involved in also for reasons surrounding the oil trade. What makes you think that this war is any different then? Basically, we got Iran and Iraq weak by supplying each one with weapons of mass descruction to fight one another (including Anthrax which neither country had at that time---another reason why Iraq hates us: we gave their enemies weapons and Anthrax to be used on them). This forced both to be dependent on us as an oil customer again (which they were starting to deny us).
However, while Iran can trade with us freely, Iraq can only trade a limited amount of oil under UN sanctions (the "food-for-oil" plan). So, the plan was to get both countries weak, then trade freely with Iran and bomb Iraq who can't trade. That way, we could get the greatest amount of oil from both. Get it now? In fact, if we control Iraq, then we would be at the top of the world's current oil trade businesses and "OPEC may entirely disinegrate" (according to Harpers). The guy the Bush administration is planning to put in as a puppet, Ahmed Chalabi, promised that "Oil trade with the US will greatly open up" once he got control of Iraq. That's his only "qualification" for running the country (that and he's an Iraqi business man). You can really see how much he cares for the Iraqi people by that statement he made to the NYTimes.

So, that's how it goes now.

At 4/29/03 01:47 PM, Ninja_Scientist wrote: You really think I don't know that? *sigh* I'm sick of having to explain things to 11th grade boys. OK, here we go. I was explaining some of the reasons why Iraq hates us. What many people like you fail to realize is that Bush and America aren't the same thing. The Iraqi people don't hate America just because of Bush.

Maybe not, but at the moment I think that they do. Why did they spring the September 11th attacks on us whilst Bush was in office? For your information Bush senior and Sadamm have bad blood anyway so Bush jr feels that if Sadamm has bad blood with his father that he has it with him too. Why does Bush's name always have to come out of the mouths of Arabs when badmouthing our country? Becuase they don't like bush or his administration.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA! THE IRAQI PEOPLE DIDN'T ATTACK US ON 9/11!! THAT WAS THE TALIBAN FROM AFGHANISTAN!!! Jeez, in addition to letting you know that Bush and America are not the same thing, I should also tell you that not all middle eastern people are from the same race. The Iraqi people and Afghanistan people are from completely different countries!

Sheesh! These are the types of people that are pro-war? The ones that don't even know who we're fighting or why?

And I think I should also let you know that not all people who are against the war are middle eastern, including me. Some of us just happen to care when we hear that the US caused over 500,000 kids in another country to die. Boy, you sure seem to see things in black and white.

Oh, and in addition to that. The Taliban is actually made up of only a few Afghanistan people. Those who attacked the US on 9/11 were mostly Egyptian and Lebanese, etc. So watch who you put the blame on.

I think the scariest thing about so many people who are pro-war right now is that they are very ignorant about what's really going on. Few of them even know the purpose behind this war (like how it's linked to the Iranian Conflict, etc. Most don't even know what the Iranian Conflict was). But I think it's the scariest thing to be pro-war and then have no idea who we're actually fighting. @_o'

Oh, and in addition to that. The Taliban is actually made up of only a few Afghanistan people. Those who attacked the US on 9/11 were mostly Egyptian and Lebanese, etc. So watch who you put the blame on. That was one thing they actually did talk about on TV, so I'm surprised you don't know that.

I think the scariest thing about so many people who are pro-war right now is that they are very ignorant about what's really going on. Few of them even know the purpose behind this war (like how it's linked to the Iranian Conflict, etc. Most don't even know what the Iranian Conflict was). But I think it's the scariest thing to be pro-war and then have no idea who we're actually fighting. @_o'

Oh, and finally, I know that they don't like Bush, but my point was that that's not the only reason they hate America (far from it).

However, don' t you think that all the deaths and sickness we've caused over there prior to this war is a pretty good reason to hate a country? I mean, you hate them and they haven't even done anything to us yet.

In fact, although many of you are going to hate me for saying this. To the Iraqi people, Saddam is the lesser of two evils (America being the main). He's a murderer, but he's killed way less people over there than America has in less than 20 years.

And the problem is that the US has no "plans to change this" (as some people say) once we gain power in Iraq. For anyone who has ever read a high school history text book, then you know that every time the US fights a war for reasons surrounding financial benefit, we always put in some puppet figure who screws up the country for the people even more because his purpose is to make trade with the US and not to help the people (look at the puppets we put in Vietnam and Korea before we lost). And now they're hopping to put in that Ahmed Chalabi guy, whose only concern is with Iraqi oil trade. He doesn't give two licks for the people of Afghanistan (see my previous posts for that info).

So that's how that goes. ^_^

pro-war prefers to connect people to terrorists as a justifation of their beliefs and the war on Iraq. After all, if these people believe theres a connection to the monsters that killed the 3000 people that fateful day, then Iraqi's DESERVE to die.

and that is how a pro-war mind works