04/21: Pilots to Fly Armed

[Freakapotimus]

U.S. Pilots to Fly Armed Within Days
AFP

April 18, 2003 — U.S. pilots have started federal training to use arms and the first pilots will carry guns as early as Sunday, the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) said Friday.

A class of 46 pilots attended a two-day arms course this week at a federal training center in Glynco, Ga. They will fly next week armed with .40 caliber semi-automatic pistols.

Full story at http://travel.discovery.com/news/afp/20030414/pilot.html

[TheShrike]

I say give 'em Uzies.

[FUNKbrs]

what I want to know is, why did they just now START arming the pilots? They should have been arming the pilots since the first plane hijacking ever. Why were we so slow to realize that the pilots are the only ones who can control the plane, and as long as they can protect themselves, they can protect everyone aboard? if I were a pilot, I would have insisted on carrying my own weapon long before 911

[bumcheekcity]

We want to stop men with guns on planes, so we put men with guns on planes.

Good logic there.

[karasz]

At 4/21/03 12:46 PM, FUNKbrs wrote: what I want to know is, why did they just now START arming the pilots?

cuz before 9-11 only israeli planes got hijacked... for the most part anyway...

They should have been arming the pilots since the first plane hijacking ever. Why were we so slow to realize that the pilots are the only ones who can control the plane, and as long as they can protect themselves, they can protect everyone aboard?

cuz woulda thunk they used planes as missiles???

:if I were a pilot, I would have insisted on carrying my own weapon long before 911

well u wouldve been a very small minority... like mabye 5% tops...

[FUNKbrs]

At 4/21/03 01:22 PM, karasz wrote: well u wouldve been a very small minority... like mabye 5% tops...

most pilots in the US are actually exmilitary, because they get free pilots training gratis the us. I think they werent allowed guns because private shipping companies were afraid terrorists might steal them, although in retrospect this view point is broderline retarded

[TheEvilOne]

At 4/21/03 01:21 PM, bumcheekcity wrote: We want to stop men with guns on planes, so we put men with guns on planes.

Good logic there.

I think you may have been being sarcastic, but actually, yes, putting people with guns on planes will stop people with guns on planes. Obviously, safety training should be required, but I think most pilots can be trusted with guns.

[JudgeDredd]

At 4/21/03 09:59 AM, TheShrike wrote: I say give 'em Uzies.

..and bullet proof vests ..and parachutes!! - lol

3 questions;
-are the pilots windows bulletproof?
-are the wings still full of explosive vapour?
-are these guns like 'futuristic lawgivers' where only a pilots DNA sample will fire the weapon?

[PreacherJ]

At 4/21/03 04:32 PM, Judge_DREDD wrote:

At 4/21/03 09:59 AM, TheShrike wrote: I say give 'em Uzies.

-are these guns like 'futuristic lawgivers' where only a pilots DNA sample will fire the weapon?

Interesting and cool thought, but not unexpected from somebody with the name "Judge Dredd."

I am the law!Sylvester Stallone as Judge Dredd in Judge Dredd

[TheShrike]

Yes, the use of uzies on a commercial aircraft might bet messy, but if the plane blew up due to a stray bullet, the the terrorists technically lose.

And I should think it'd be easier to fend off attackers with an automatic weapon than with a semi-auto pistol.

[karasz]

At 4/21/03 07:24 PM, TheShrike wrote: Yes, the use of uzies on a commercial aircraft might bet messy, but if the plane blew up due to a stray bullet, the the terrorists technically lose.

so do the dozens of people onboard...

i want to know who gets sued when a pilots bullet misses its target and hits someone killing them instantly?

[TheShrike]

At 4/21/03 07:37 PM, karasz wrote: i want to know who gets sued when a pilots bullet misses its target and hits someone killing them instantly?

Sue the terrorists.

[RoboTripper]

I don't think guns on planes are a good idea.

First off, they aren't necessary - after 9/11 no passengers and crew are going to allow their plane to be hijacked. Fear of the hijackers will be overcome by the knowledge that death is inevitable.

Secondly, putting a gun in the plane gives the hijackers a weapon already on the plane - they don't even have to smuggle any aboard. A surprise attack could overpower the cockpit before the crew could even get to their guns - then terrorists would have a gun, which would neutralize the passengers ability to gain back control. A little box cutter is one thing, a gun is quite another.

Third, firing a gun around in a pressurized plane is not gonna have good results.

[NJDeadzone]

so where do they put the bloody mess? coach?

[Jimsween]

1. the bullets should be stop after impact, so they do not penetrate the planes walls but do penetrate the human body.
2. the cockpit should be able to completely seal itself off from the outside (including sound)
3. Alss pilots should have extensive backround checks
4. The FAA should ahve the power to shut down an airline if it doesnt get an A upon inspection.

As for the Isreal thing, I thought isreal was the only country that hasnt had a plane hijacked in 30 years because every plane has an armed gaurd on it.

[BloodRaven666]

Yes they are armed now, but what is the point. How can they prevent the hostage takeover of a plane by arming a pilot with semi automatic pistols, they will either shoot delecate equipment or shoot the pasengers.

[TheShrike]

A lot of good points...

But there are already armed agents aboard most continental US flights already.

So if the terrorists gain control of the aircraft, and take the pilot's weapon, there is probably one other undercover agent on the plane. And those guys are trained for hostage/hijacking scenarios.

And even if there isn't an agent on the hijacked flight, there shouldn't be enough bullets in the gun to take out every single passenger.

[FUNKbrs]

At 4/21/03 08:31 PM, BloodRaven666 wrote: Yes they are armed now, but what is the point. How can they prevent the hostage takeover of a plane by arming a pilot with semi automatic pistols, they will either shoot delecate equipment or shoot the pasengers.

the idea is that undercover airmarshalls take care of the passengers defense, and the pilots only defend the cockpit, and only as a last defense that way if the terrorists can be subdued without gunplay, the airmarshalls will handle it, but if they steal a gun from an air marshall, then the pilots will have a second line of defense over the flying of the plane. the plane may crash, but it will never be a suicide bomb ever again.

[NJDeadzone]

how about if you violate serious safety guidelines on airplanes(like acting like a nutcase,threatening people,carrying a weapon) you are BANNED FOR LIFE on all US transport such as trains, boats, and even buses, not to mention airplanes.

[JudgeDredd]

.: "weclome aboard" - worst case scenario :.

ok, theory is for cockpit defensive weapon - why not a tazer style stun gun? do you imagine that the bullets remain loaded at all times? would it be locked away during normal flight? similarly, do you think the gun would be of a uniquely difficult design that they would only fire following a trained set-sequence procedure?

what if a gas is introduced to the plane knocking out all passengers and air-marshalls? (or spiked drinks, etc) would the pilot have sufficient warning, or be on a seperate oxygen system?

what if an electronic device were to take over the auto-pilot (fly-by-wire) feature? does the pilot have absolute full manual override?

the solo terrorist is strapped with a new highly unstable liquid - the only method of detonation is a high impact projectile - the pilot shoots him/her and the plane blows up right over some metropolis

a shoe bomber or other "accident" besets the plane high above the Atlantic, it's left with a gaping hole and leaking fuel.. the pilot realizes the only way to make landfall is to "lighten the load" ..crazed and desperate to see his/her family again the pilot starts ordering passengers out the escape hatch at gun-point

O_o
_}_+'
/_\

[NJDeadzone]

what if someone on a plane has SARS, have they found a solution to that yet?

[bumcheekcity]

At 4/22/03 12:49 PM, NJDeadzone wrote: what if someone on a plane has SARS, have they found a solution to that yet?

Its not really an act of terrorism though is it?

[Taxman2A]

At 4/22/03 04:41 AM, Judge_DREDD wrote: .: "weclome aboard" - worst case scenario :.

ok, theory is for cockpit defensive weapon - why not a tazer style stun gun? do you imagine that the bullets remain loaded at all times? would it be locked away during normal flight? similarly, do you think the gun would be of a uniquely difficult design that they would only fire following a trained set-sequence procedure?

what if a gas is introduced to the plane knocking out all passengers and air-marshalls? (or spiked drinks, etc) would the pilot have sufficient warning, or be on a seperate oxygen system?

what if an electronic device were to take over the auto-pilot (fly-by-wire) feature? does the pilot have absolute full manual override?

the solo terrorist is strapped with a new highly unstable liquid - the only method of detonation is a high impact projectile - the pilot shoots him/her and the plane blows up right over some metropolis

a shoe bomber or other "accident" besets the plane high above the Atlantic, it's left with a gaping hole and leaking fuel.. the pilot realizes the only way to make landfall is to "lighten the load" ..crazed and desperate to see his/her family again the pilot starts ordering passengers out the escape hatch at gun-point

Were you trying to be serious with all that, or was it a joke? Just wondering, because if you want to talk about a new highly unstable liquid strapped to terrorists that only blows up from projectiles, we might as well look at some other possibilities. How about the possibility that the terrorists are really aliens that feel off projectile rounds, and every time we shoot them they get bigger and stronger? OMG!

Also, who would jump out of a plane at gunpoint? thats fucking retarded! Thats like using the guillatine on yourself because someone with a knife told you to!
"Chop off your own head! Or I'll shoot!"

[Taxman2A]

At 4/22/03 01:00 PM, bumcheekcity wrote:

At 4/22/03 12:49 PM, NJDeadzone wrote: what if someone on a plane has SARS, have they found a solution to that yet?

Its not really an act of terrorism though is it?

Hmm... I guess if someone with SARS was actively trying to infect others they could be tried for "biological warfare".

[ichbincow]

Sigh---again I see people spouting off about things they have no knowledge about and hope that people actually belive them=

1= The ammo that will be used is designed not to overpentrate hence cause explosive decompression or be alot less likely than standard ball ammo.....this info was run in several gun and ammo magazines.

2= Arming pilots=The cockpit doors will not be standard but armored and the pilots will not be the only ones onboard with a weapon....again this was run in several gun/ammo magazines as well as news.

3=Pilots were supposed to be armed a LONG time ago but due to the expense involved was put off----it took something to "wake them up" to the reality of it could happen to us.

4=The moment I read the one post stateing "give them all uzi's" I knew that emotionalism was involved. Youve been playing to many video games people---it is rather difficult to control a full auto weapon. A better choice would be either an MP5 or a steyr aug both with selectable shot settings and excellent short range accuracy. Ive had the oppourtunity to fir fully auto weapons and they KICK quite abit. The object in defensive shooting is to kill the bad guy and keep collateral damage to people and property to a minimum.

Stick to playing counter strike kids and let the adults use real guns and if you MUST talk about firearms...do a little research before you spout off.

[Nirvana13666]

The head of the Transportation Security Admin.was required by Congress to develop an armed-pilots program
The program trains commercial airline pilots to use semiautomatic handguns, but the plan was criticized by pilots who said it posed safety risks.The first armed pilots are expected to begin flying by May.The Federal Aviation Administration are studying the effects of firing a .40-caliber handgun aboard an aircraft.

I think the lockboxes could make the pilots easier for terrorists and other criminals to identify.

[Nirvana13666]

The pilots are learning a range of tactics, including shooting over the shoulder.

If you're shooting over your shoulder while the cockpit door is open, there's a good chance you are going to miss.If you miss, where is that round going? It is going into the cabin.

[FUNKbrs]

At 4/22/03 03:05 PM, ichbincow wrote: Sigh---again I see people spouting off about things they have no knowledge about and hope that people actually belive them=

Stick to playing counter strike kids and let the adults use real guns and if you MUST talk about firearms...do a little research before you spout off.

damn straight, finally a real gun officianado. I was waiting for someone with some fire arms intel to post a message

[JudgeDredd]

At 4/22/03 01:09 PM, Taxman2A wrote:

At 4/22/03 04:41 AM, Judge_DREDD wrote:

.: "weclome aboard" - worst case scenario :.

Were you trying to be serious with all that, or was it a joke? Let's talk about aliens... OMG!

i'm insulted :( ..ppl taking our scenarios so seriously, or mocking us because they think guns on commercial air-liners make logical sense....??

the "high impact projectile" is a scenario.. the shoe bomber was foiled when trying to light his shoes with a match or lighter. duh! i'm just suggesting they (terrorists) won't be using laptops or cellphone remote detonation. The hijacker might just as well be standing there with two pin-less hand-grenades (same scenario) - you shoot him - EVERYONE DIES.

the "jump or i'll shoot" is a scenario.. but if passengers wouldn't endanger their lives with the threat of a gun how would it stop a half dozen suicidal terrorists? ..remember, box cutters were sufficient threat to take charge of an entire plane? terrorists might just start wearing undetectable teflon jackets.

[ichbincow]

Boxcutters as weps=DUH no one on plane has a weapon and was willing to do what it takes to stop them (ie maybe get hurt)---Guns will certainly take care of that

grenades--shoe bombs=if aiport security does its job groundside---not likely

Teflon=they have a gun that uses no metal so bottom line is NO place can be made totally weapon proof and again--pilots have guns versus teflon knife means one dead hijacker

oh and just in case=useing passenger for hostage---sorry but if they get the typical deadly force training then---hostage is expendable better dead hostage and dead terrorist than surrender weapon and allow more havok to occur