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At 12/17/07 11:49 AM, een777 wrote: But If your asking a personal question about my own faith, yes I am Christian and I do believe that Jesus is the son of God and my own personal savior. How I make that concur with these other ideas is simply by the fact that I (my personal opinon) think the bible in itself is a miracle (assuming you believe in miracles... I do). That some thing was inscribed over a period of 2000 years. In times of war and in days of peace. By kings, physicians, tax collectors, farmers, fishermen, singers and shepherds That this library of books which is connected so perfectly, could have been produced by such a diverse crowd over a period of time where numerous wars, conflicting religions, and many other things could have hindered its progress. Because I believe the bible is a miracle, I try to follow by its instruction.

This isn't very logical. There are several scriptures of other religions that is a lot OLDER than the Bible, that survived just as much. Why doesn't that convince you either?

But many people can't handle that so I say the best option for them is to become a deist unless, by using your science, you can logically explain who or what started the big bang?

No, I can't. But does that matter anything at all? Lacking knowledge does not mean that the basis for your beliefs are completely trash.

Can you logically explain how God came to exist? If not, does that make Christianity flawed?

Concerning interpreting the bible literally vs metaphorically is a very very thin line to walk so I'll try my best to give you my thoughts. Lets face it. The bible has been proven numerous times to not be very much in the right about science and scientific fact. But according to my beliefs, the bible is a very useful tool in determining what your morals are and also how to live. In accordance to the church, they don't believe that two goofballs known as Adam and Even came along and committed the first sin. The church believes that "if" evolution occurred, then somewhere down the line, the ability to reason and think at the capacity that humans can was developed, and during that time, someone committed the first sin and because that person brought sin into the world we have original sin. Heres a question to ponder: If the world was barren of humans, would their be such a thing as evil?
My answer would be no, and since evil was created by the first person who committed a sin (again, these are my beliefs) then humans will have to carry that mark of sin within them and reliquish it through baptism.

huh. How did the first person sin when there was no evil? If you can sin without evil, then why does it matter that evil came into the world? Doesn't seem to be much of a difference.

And that begs the question, why does God punish all of humanity for all future for the sins of one man?

And finally concerning Jesus. Talk to any intelligent philosopher and you will notice as well as I have that Jesus has hit human nature dead on. If someone can grow up as a low class carpenter's son and be able to show up to a temple at 5 years old and start preaching to average folks about God, then I'm gonna have to raise a flag and say "wait a minute". Just from how Jesus grew up and his environment, it is theoretically impossible for him to be able to obtain the wisdom that he has obtained. Therefore, I call Jesus a miracle and believe in every word that he says.

And ask any intelligent historian, he will tell you that the only record for Jesus doing these things are from the Bible. That has become a circular argument, I am afraid. You can't use a source to validate itself.

Questions, comments, Intelligent responses, conflicts are all well appreciated if anyone has any :).

Nice to see pleasant people here and there on newgrounds.

At 12/17/07 11:49 AM, een777 wrote:

that I (my personal opinon) think the bible in itself is a miracle (assuming you believe in miracles... I do). That some thing was inscribed over a period of 2000 years. In times of war and in days of peace. By kings, physicians, tax collectors, farmers, fishermen, singers and shepherds That this library of books which is connected so perfectly, could have been produced by such a diverse crowd over a period of time where numerous wars, conflicting religions, and many other things could have hindered its progress. Because I believe the bible is a miracle, I try to follow by its instruction. But many people can't handle that so I say the best option for them is to become a deist unless, by using your science, you can logically explain who or what started the big bang?

It is connected so perfectly as you put it by a system used everywhere then & now , BY EDITING !
That's right men edited out what they didn't like & added what they wanted.
Voila ,your miracle book.
As for who or what started the big bang, why did someone have to start it?
If everything is ,when broken down to the molecular level incapable of being destroyed or created, it can only be changed, why isn't it plausable that from one state the material that was then simply changed into what we are experiencing today.

Concerning interpreting the bible literally vs metaphorically is a very very thin line to walk But according to my beliefs, the bible is a very useful tool in determining what your morals are and also how to live. Heres a question to ponder: If the world was barren of humans, would their be such a thing as evil?

;
Evil is simply a point of view.
What some call evil, others might call immoral.
But morality is a subjective thing. In Ancient Hawaiian culture the father taking his daughters maidenhood at puberty was not considered evil. Try that in the U.S. today & see what its called.
I give you the point of "some" of what is in the bible promotes decent morality.
If evil is by your definition caused by an act of commiting a sin.
What if what then happens when what you might consider a sin, I do not consider a sin.
For Example, I don't believe that living with a woman in all ways that a married man lives with his wife, to be a sin.
So by christian teachings ,I am living in sin , so I am evil.
But me & my lover choose not to marry, & we lead productive lives , law abiding, caring for our families & friends. We have no plans to become devil worshippers any time soon, nor are we planning to be married anytime either.

My answer would be no, and since evil was created by the first person who committed a sin (again, these are my beliefs) then humans will have to carry that mark of sin within them and reliquish it through baptism.

;
I fail to see how getting wet is somehow going to purify you.
I especially don't get it when the water isn't pure anyway.

And finally concerning Jesus. Therefore, I call Jesus a miracle and believe in every word that he says.

;
Nobody knows what he said... no one wrote any of it down until After the fact, isn't that convienient.
People supposedly 'remembered' what he said, & then they wrote it down
It obviously doesn't bother you that Jesus didn't become anything until 300 Plus years after his death. By a meeting between the Emperor of Rome & the leading memebers of Christians at the time.
www.gotquestions.org/council-of-Nicea.ht ml

It probably also doesn't bother you that every so called miracle about or performed by Jesus, has been documented as being done in other cultures & earlier civilizations by their messiah (s). Long befor there even was a Rome or anything to do with Christian ideas.

So yeah, its a miracle alright.
Its a miracle so many people actually believe this .
That is in 'my opinion' the true miracle, so many can be fooled or are deluding themselves in the fallicy which is the basis of all organized religions of today.

This forum is lame, for every person who supports the religion side, there's like 10 who support science.

I'm tempted to join a creationist forum just to get more sweet sweet insane action.

At 12/18/07 12:07 PM, poxpower wrote: This forum is lame, for every person who supports the religion side, there's like 10 who support science.

I'm tempted to join a creationist forum just to get more sweet sweet insane action.

I support science and Im a theist, I think this thread should have been called atheism vs theism.

Which is just hypocritical, because science goes against your religion.

If God has no end or beginning...then how did it all start? How are we not to question if God is actually some other thing that we have no clue about? Hell, for all we know, Adam and Eve could be are ture ancestors BUT...did it ever occur to you that maybe...by some chance...along the line somewhere, the skeletons were weathered and eroded to those of "primitave humans" a.k.k neanderthals? And that's it is a COINCIDENCE that our DNA is strikingly similar to that of a chimpanzee? God works in mysterious ways. That dude probably has a sence of humor and maybe he did it on purpose? Who the hell knows? God gave us the earth, life, and shelter. He also gave us the tools. Now that one tool is freewill. With this one tool, this gift as some might say, is the once difference-not just from animals-but from angels! God created angels to worship him, or so we have come to BELIEVE. "God provides....ask and you will recieve....true you killed your brother, but still, anyone who wishes to do you harm will go to me first and I will defend you seven fold!.....keep holy the Sabbath day, for you shall rest, your slaves shall rest and your ass as I too rest.....dont't use my name in vain, It's not my job to interviene, this is your buisness

Now science...is done by man. A result of our FREEWILL! Hey! FREEwill, FREEdom, FREEticket, FREEenterprise, isn't karma nice? Our soldiers fight for our homes, they are trained out of freewill. Humans are so powerful, this was and mentaly, that we can actually lie to our body that we feel no pain. "Mind over matter. It's all in your head.." The freshmen class was called to the cafetaria for something. I thought it was, spitballing, that the boys are harrasing the girls, yep. I have tricked fate more than 3 times. I mentaly ran a panic situation and saved a classmate from a beesting. "Seeing is belliving.....psychics aren't real, and niether are ailens..." Well, if God created everything TO WHAT WE CALL A to Z, if we are the only race in the universe-wouldn't we get lonely? Did God make aliens? Science gives a logicaly man made reason to the questions we ask. If spiderman was real, would he be a miracle-a godsend? or a geneticaly gifted human male? Religously Aunt May literaly hung in the hands of a statue of Mother Mary, Scienc wise...it was by slim chance. It's both. both are true. We may think we know when we're gonna die. But we don't. My friend made a bet of $100 that he's gonna move my the start of December, I bet on the contrary. Saying how that you can't be shure even if you THINK you are sure, think again and tell me on wensday. I told him it's ok, don't pay me. I won. For all I knew, if he moved to where ever, death could have been there too. But idk that. Religously or scientificaly speaking-You only got one life to live to the fullest, laugh hard, kiss slowly, forgive fast, break the rules (the right ones), and have fun (the right way), and I mean like...gluing hentai pics on the school walls! I did that! the prinishit was all "what the fuck is this?!"

At 12/18/07 10:52 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Which is just hypocritical, because science goes against your religion.

as i have stated: science is the study of god's work/creation

and as time passes, more and more ppl will realize that

and that religion is a creation of man

At 12/19/07 02:27 AM, enonymous420 wrote:

At 12/18/07 10:52 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Which is just hypocritical, because science goes against your religion.

as i have stated: science is the study of god's work/creation

Bible says: World is 6000 years old.

Bible = Infallible word of god.

Science says: World is 4.54 Billion years old.

Science =/= Compatible with religion.

scientists can't agree on any one age
so

Science says: World is 4.54 Billion years old.

is null and void

At 12/19/07 04:16 AM, enonymous420 wrote: scientists can't agree on any one age
so

Science says: World is 4.54 Billion years old.

is null and void

It's a compromise.

And in any case, the one thing they agree on is that it is a hell of a lot older than 6000 years.

At 12/19/07 03:53 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

Sorry, some miss in your logic there, SadisticMonkey

Bible says: World is 6000 years old.

Bible = Infallible word of god.

Science says: World is 4.54 Billion years old.

Science =/= Compatible with religion.

Bible < Religion

All your logic proves so far is that:

Science =/= Compatible with Bible/Christianity

Super agnostic here. I believe in science of course. There can not be any denial of science without coming off as an idiot. A lot of theories are incomplete and many could turn out to be completely untrue but science is the study of fact. There is only minor doubts in my mind that evolution and a big bang happened but that has nothing to do with God. I only have these minor doubts because it's equally as plausible that I am the soul existing thing within a completely imaginary world and universe.
Of course, if I can place myself at the centre of existance and be so deluded into thinking that I may be God, then I must be able to accept the existance of a God. To be a God I believe that it must have the power to create and to shape the universe. The initial big bang will have been the ultimate act of God and ever since, that God will have carved a destiny in time. I don't want to now go into free will because my views there are almost as ambiguous as my views on gods.
Moving on to religion, I've found the only one I've taken a significant amount of interest in is Buddhism. Every other religion that I've found has taught people what to believe. I prefer the teachings of Buddhism as they are simple laws for living your life and that's all. Spiritual development is at the core of Buddhism and I'm all for that.
Science and religion, I have stated before, are not opposites. Some religions are contradicted by scientific studies but that's simply because they are stories written by men who didn't have enormous telescopes and particle accelerators. Science has been made a villain by religion because it does contradict ancient traditional texts. Anything thought to degrade the teachings of their god's was bound to have been seen as the trickery of the devil; these are people who just didn't know any better.
Science is fact (almost) and religion should be allowed as a means to comfort people and in order to encourage them to live better lives. In the long run, I think we'll probably see the end of all religions, though the concept of God will still be taught as an abstract philosophy. People will choose their beliefs and there will be no prejudice because people will be taught that their beliefs are no more likely than another's. Belief will be a solitary thing but there will of course be communities, most likely online, where like minded individuals are allowed to discuss their ideas. Because nobody is set to a concrete system of beliefs people will learn and develop their own understanding of the world around them, possibly changing their beliefs as they go.

All that's if we live past 2012 (oh no!).

At 12/19/07 09:52 AM, Drakim wrote:

At 12/19/07 03:53 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

Sorry, some miss in your logic there, SadisticMonkey

Oops, my mistake.

Christianity*

All that's if we live past 2012 (oh no!).

im glad u brought up 2010

nobody should fear the year 2012 except for the NWO
i welcome it as should u and everybody else

Ancient prophecies predicted it. Indigenous traditions honor it.
Changes within the Earth are affecting our sleep patterns, relationships, the ability to regulate your immune system and your perception of time. We are living a process of initiation that was demonstrated over 2,000 years ago, preparing you to accept tremendous change within your body.
That change is happening now.

SOME POSSIBLE EFFECTS OF THE CHANGES
* Migraine headaches, tiredness
* Electrical sensations in the limbs and spinal column
* Cramps in the muscular networks
* Flu like symptoms
* Intense dreams.
* The human body will become more sensitive as a result of the new vibrations.
* The resonance of Earth has been 7.8Hz for thousands of years. Since 1980 it has risen to over 12Hz.
This means that 16 hours now equate to a 24 hour day. Time is speeding up!
* The physical body has already begun to change. A new light body is being created.
* Our DNA is being re-programmed from the Universe (as predicted in the Mayan Prophecy).
We are going from 2 strand back to 12 strand DNA.
* Greater intuitive and healing abilities will emerge.
* Eyes will become cat like in order to adjust to the new atmosphere and light.
* All newly born children will probably be telepathic at birth.
* All plagues of the 90's, including AIDS will be gone.

most ppl won't accept it.. im not here force my beliefs on u.
either believe or dont.

At 12/19/07 11:22 AM, Schmut wrote: Science and religion, I have stated before, are not opposites. Some religions are contradicted by scientific studies but that's simply because they are stories written by men who didn't have enormous telescopes and particle accelerators.

It's supposed to be divinely inspired for fucks sake. The fact that they are so inaccurate is proof that they are mere stories, conceived without divine revelation.

And in any case, the one thing they agree on is that it is a hell of a lot older than 6000 years.

7 days for god could mean millions (or billions of years to us), it's about relativity

At 12/19/07 03:53 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 12/19/07 02:27 AM, enonymous420 wrote:

At 12/18/07 10:52 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Which is just hypocritical, because science goes against your religion.

as i have stated: science is the study of god's work/creation

Bible says: World is 6000 years old.

You whats funny, is that a Rabbi from the 13th century postulated that the Universe is 15 billion years old.
What now?

At 12/20/07 12:58 AM, therealsylvos wrote: You whats funny, is that a Rabbi from the 13th century postulated that the Universe is 15 billion years old.
What now?

then it is not based on literal interpretation. by calculating the age of each generation mentioned in the Bible (this provides an unbroken chain) as well as the spans of time (i.e. the days of creation) it allows us to determine the age of the earth.

At 12/20/07 12:55 AM, enonymous420 wrote:

And in any case, the one thing they agree on is that it is a hell of a lot older than 6000 years.

7 days for god could mean millions (or billions of years to us), it's about relativity

I'm not referring to the creation of the earth in 7 days.

At 12/20/07 12:58 AM, therealsylvos wrote:

At 12/19/07 03:53 AM, SadisticMonkey wrote:

At 12/19/07 02:27 AM, enonymous420 wrote:

At 12/18/07 10:52 PM, SadisticMonkey wrote: Which is just hypocritical, because science goes against your religion.

as i have stated: science is the study of god's work/creation

Bible says: World is 6000 years old.

You whats funny, is that a Rabbi from the 13th century postulated that the Universe is 15 billion years old.
What now?

Still, he is a very small minority at that time, if not completely alone.

There are always awesome people here and there, but, the problems of religion seldom stems from one person. It's usually a group of people that gets egged on to do something horrible because of their religion, such as burning witches.

At 12/20/07 12:55 AM, enonymous420 wrote:

And in any case, the one thing they agree on is that it is a hell of a lot older than 6000 years.

7 days for god could mean millions (or billions of years to us), it's about relativity

"The only way to heaven is me" when Jesus said it might mean "You got to heaven no matter what you believe", it's about relativity.

At 12/20/07 02:58 AM, SolInvictus wrote:

then it is not based on literal interpretation. by calculating the age of each generation mentioned in the Bible (this provides an unbroken chain) as well as the spans of time (i.e. the days of creation) it allows us to determine the age of the earth.

My point was that it not the "Bible" that posits that the world is 5767 years old. It is some peoples interpretation of it. And this Rabbi's interperation wasn't to rectify the Bible with science since he said it long before science thought it was, it was just his take on it.
Everyone knows some parts of the Bible is not literal. Even the most extrem fundemnetalist, if he is the least bit educated in the Bible, will not take the verse of "An eye for an eye..." literally. The only disagreement is about exactly what is metaphorical and what is literal.

At 12/20/07 01:48 PM, therealsylvos wrote:

At 12/20/07 02:58 AM, SolInvictus wrote:

then it is not based on literal interpretation. by calculating the age of each generation mentioned in the Bible (this provides an unbroken chain) as well as the spans of time (i.e. the days of creation) it allows us to determine the age of the earth.

My point was that it not the "Bible" that posits that the world is 5767 years old. It is some peoples interpretation of it. And this Rabbi's interperation wasn't to rectify the Bible with science since he said it long before science thought it was, it was just his take on it.
Everyone knows some parts of the Bible is not literal. Even the most extrem fundemnetalist, if he is the least bit educated in the Bible, will not take the verse of "An eye for an eye..." literally. The only disagreement is about exactly what is metaphorical and what is literal.

Actually, I've debated with a great many people who believes that the Bible is the prefect word of God, and simply unable to be wrong. By using the holy spirit, God ensured that the Bible is perfect to the letter. Most such Christians believe that the King James Version is the only perfect Bible in English at the moment.

Well, we know the Bible is truthful because all the prophecies in it came true thousands of years before they happened:

Click

I can see where Atheism comes from with the whole scientific research and whatnot, but how can you believe that all the things in the universe came from nothing? I mean, look at the universe with all it's order and form, complex patterns in space, the human body system, and everything else. This could only be created from a divine being, God.

At 12/20/07 03:03 PM, Toasty4you wrote: Well, we know the Bible is truthful because all the prophecies in it came true thousands of years before they happened:

Click

It's easy to make prophecies that turn true if you just wait enough time and only make prophecies that are vague enough.

Also, prophecies on jesus are no proof whatsoever, since first off, there is some doubt that Jesus has existed even as a person, and secondly, you have to believe in Jesus performing the miracles. If you don't believe Jesus being born by a virgin, for example, then he hasn't fulfilled any prophecy.

I can see where Atheism comes from with the whole scientific research and whatnot, but how can you believe that all the things in the universe came from nothing? I mean, look at the universe with all it's order and form, complex patterns in space, the human body system, and everything else. This could only be created from a divine being, God.

I don't know where the universe came from. It could be God, "nothing", or that it has always existed in some form.
And no, it can't only be created by a divine being.

At 12/20/07 03:03 PM, Toasty4you wrote: Well, we know the Bible is truthful because all the prophecies in it came true thousands of years before they happened:

Click

Sigh. You know what? I won't bother explaining it for you. You'll just ignore it and go on to tell somebody else how all the prophecies came true anyway, no matter what I say.

I can see where Atheism comes from with the whole scientific research and whatnot, but how can you believe that all the things in the universe came from nothing? I mean, look at the universe with all it's order and form, complex patterns in space, the human body system, and everything else. This could only be created from a divine being, God.

Incorrect. Atheism doesn't claim how the universe came to be anymore than vegetarians or pacifists does.

Secondly, you can't just go around making random claims without backing:

This could only be created from a divine being, God.

Prove this.

At 12/20/07 03:30 PM, Drakim wrote: Sigh. You know what? I won't bother explaining it for you. You'll just ignore it and go on to tell somebody else how all the prophecies came true anyway, no matter what I say.

Probably

Incorrect. Atheism doesn't claim how the universe came to be anymore than vegetarians or pacifists does.

Incorrect. Most scientists believe in the Big Bang theory, and a lot of scientists are atheists.

Prove this.

Sir, even if you don't believe in a God everyone knows the universe had to start with something. Since the universe was nothing at first, as pretty much all scientists agree on, there must have been something pretty big to start the huge chain-reaction that started the entire universe and everything in it. Now, what could that force be? There was nothing, right? Even if you don't believe it Christianity, you should at least admit that there was something big that started the universe, and us religious believe it is God, which seems the most logical. Not some atom being split into another atom (or whatever the hell atheists believe) leading to gigantic planets, living humans and animals, minerals, elements, and everything that exists.

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER

At 12/20/07 05:43 PM, Toasty4you wrote:

Incorrect. Atheism doesn't claim how the universe came to be anymore than vegetarians or pacifists does.

Incorrect. Most scientists believe in the Big Bang theory, and a lot of scientists are atheists.

The Big Bang theory was never the end question of the universe, it's simply something that apparently happened X billion years ago and accounts for pretty much every observation we can make of the universe today.
There are alternate theories, and even if the Big Bang was true in itself, no scientist ever claimed it's the true and only start of the universe.

Prove this.

and us religious believe it is God, which seems the most logical.

How is "God appeared out of nothing" more logical than "the universe appeared from nothing?"
And how would "God has always existed" be more logical than "the universe has always existed"?

Bear in mind that we haven't figured out everything about the universe and time so far, so claiming that it's impossible for something in our universe to have always existed is foolish.

At 12/20/07 01:48 PM, therealsylvos wrote: My point was that it not the "Bible" that posits that the world is 5767 years old. It is some peoples interpretation of it.

6000 is a literal reading of the Bible, anything else is interpretation. this thread is mostly about literal interpretations of the Bible being wrong.

At 12/20/07 05:43 PM, Toasty4you wrote: and a lot of scientists are atheists.

and that somehow means that science and atheism are one and the same? you sir, are an idiot.