Newgrounds.com — Everything, By Everyone.

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At 7/1/07 10:38 PM, Memorize wrote:
Hardly. As seen in the United States, something like secular ethics will keep changing over and over to the point where people won't have ethics.

ex. once again, prostitution.

That's terrible reasoning, because you aren't accounting for anything other than the mere existence of prostitution.

And based on human evolution, I'd say our ethics are actually evolving and becoming more strict as we move through time, not dissipating.

Ex, decline of slavery. Rise of basic human rights international laws.

And even prostitution is very curtailed.....

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At 7/1/07 10:21 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 7/1/07 09:24 PM, EndGameOmega wrote:

No I'm not.

Yes, you are.

No, I'm not. Take a look at what I actually wrote. I said it was impossible, unless god altered the laws of physics. Which indicates it is possible, though if he did do that it would pose many other problems. Not all of them physical in nature.

Agreed if god dose exist then he can bend or even break the laws of physics, though there are likely to be repercussions and evidence of this

Why? If he is indeed all powerful, then wouldn't he be able to make it like it never happend?

Sure it could. Just like everything could have been made last Thursday. Both are equal possible. But here's the real problem, if god did change physics for a time, and did it in such a way as to leave no evidence. Then that's tantamount to lying, now if you think god's a lier then fine, but then whole problem of if he lied about that maybe he lied about the bible, maybe he lied about Jesus being his son, etc.

Your right I haven't, but people who believe that are well incapable of bring ether logic or science into the argument.

If God exists and created the Universe, then the only logical result would be that he can do what he wants with it.

with in the boundrys of logic, and the very structure of god. Some of what people claim defies both.

I don't really understand why that's so hard for you.

As I said before in one of the many other post I've made to you, if you can violate the very foundation and fundamental princeaples of logic, then then there's nothing left to argue. Up can be down, left can be right, and forward can be a chair. Nothing would make sense any more, nothing would be understandable, and this very conversation would be impossible. Unless you can find a replacement for logic that is.

Maybe in a few case, but certainly not in most.

What is this... "most" of which you speak?

Most, as in the majority, as in pick something and there's a good chance it's ether wrong or very off. Not all of course, but more then enough.

That doesn't answer the question seeing how I'm not god.

Gee, who could've guessed that.

And that doesn't answer my question either.

God if it existed should be perfect (at lest according to most Christians), a perfect god would have a plan and reason for everything, you know the whole omnisciences thing.

So just because you don't know it means that there isn't one? Ok, gotcha.

No it's because the bible didn't say what it was, it's lacking in information to the question at hand.

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At 7/2/07 12:06 AM, Imperator wrote:

That's terrible reasoning, because you aren't accounting for anything other than the mere existence of prostitution.

Just an example.

Ex, decline of slavery. Rise of basic human rights international laws.

And those are based on what? Human treatment. How they feel. What they want and don't want. Pain and suffering.

That is why people will eventually decay. You've seen in US history at least right? The would-be assassin of FDR was executed (I believe) within a month of his crime. Yet the would-be assassin of Ronald Reagan was found "not guilty" because of "mental problems" despite him KNOWING what he was doing was wrong and for his own selfish needs.

The use of DNA to produce a much more highly accurate judgement is now being used for anti-death penalty campeigns. True logic would dictate that because we are now more accurate, it gives us more of a reason to use the death penalty.

It's cases where a child rapist is sentenced to only probation is what shreds what little faith I have left in humanity. And what was a reason for one of these sentences? The rapist was too short for prison. That's right, if you're short, you don't go to jail no matter your crime.

Or perhaps our double standards. If a man kills his children, people cry out to kill him. If a woman kills her children, all she has to do is plead "mental case" and she gets sentenced to a mental institute until they deem her sane enough for society.

A woman can give a false testamony and it will "move" the Jury. The woman who shot and killed her preacher husband while he was sleeping got what? I know it was less than 10 years, I believe it was even less than 5. Why? Because she claims (and can't back it up) that she was abused. So much for evidence eh?

Point is, everything you consider "progress" is all based on people's emotions on not wanting to be personally hurt or feel pain.

And even prostitution is very curtailed.....

Exactly. You are part of this degrading society.

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At 7/2/07 12:11 AM, EndGameOmega wrote:

No, I'm not. Take a look at what I actually wrote. I said it was impossible, unless god altered the laws of physics. Which indicates it is possible, though if he did do that it would pose many other problems.

Yes, you are.

If God is truely all powerfull, he can bend or break physics for a short amount of time and then later, put it back the way it was.

If he cannot, then he wouldn't be the all powerful as people perceive him to be.

Then that's tantamount to lying,

How the hell is changing physics for a very short time and putting it back together as lying?

There is something wrong with your logic, despite how logical you are.

Nothing would make sense any more, nothing would be understandable, and this very conversation would be impossible. Unless you can find a replacement for logic that is.

In the words of Will Smith: You are the dumbest smart person i've ever met.

No it's because the bible didn't say what it was, it's lacking in information to the question at hand.

You really are dumb in a smart way.

I'm so glad I don't have to live like you.

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At 7/2/07 12:19 AM, Memorize wrote:

At 7/2/07 12:11 AM, EndGameOmega wrote:

No, I'm not. Take a look at what I actually wrote. I said it was impossible, unless god altered the laws of physics. Which indicates it is possible, though if he did do that it would pose many other problems.

Yes, you are.

If God is truely all powerfull, he can bend or break physics for a short amount of time and then later, put it back the way it was.

If he cannot, then he wouldn't be the all powerful as people perceive him to be.

You know if you actually went back and read what I wrote, you'll see I never denied that. I just said if did there would be other problems. Your ether misinterpreting, or being a jackass, I don't know which.

Then that's tantamount to lying,

How the hell is changing physics for a very short time and putting it back together as lying?

He's altering the way the world looks, effectively erasing all evidence that something happened or existed. It is in and of it self blatantly deceptive. That there is for all intensive purposes a lie, but I can take it further.

Given god omniscience it should have know that this lack of evidence for the flood would cause people to doubt the bible and be lead away. Effectively he punishes those how seek answer, and seek to understand him. He erases evidence of his existence, and then punishes souls for not believing. You know what, that's not even lying, it's sadistic.

There is something wrong with your logic, despite how logical you are.

Point it out, or stop making unfounded accusations.

Nothing would make sense any more, nothing would be understandable, and this very conversation would be impossible. Unless you can find a replacement for logic that is.

In the words of Will Smith: You are the dumbest smart person i've ever met.

Alright, then you explain how reality can exist with out logic. How anything can exist with out some kind of logical frame work to it. If you can't then your insults are unfounded.

No it's because the bible didn't say what it was, it's lacking in information to the question at hand.

You really are dumb in a smart way.

I'm so glad I don't have to live like you.

Insults, why would I expect any more? Well if it makes you feel better about your self, please continue, you'll simply succeed in proving what others have written about you and Christians.

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At 7/2/07 12:01 AM, Memorize wrote: Question: If God exists, then he is responsible for your being here (I don't he picked you out, I mean without him, there wouldn't be a you).

Is Loyalty inherently earned by fatherhood? No. Just as the bastard, disowned son of a Lord does not owe his father loyalty, nor do we owe God our loyalty automatically. And yes, we are all exactly that son: born from a man and himself (his rib), out of wedlock, and after being thrown from God's household (Eden).

Just like you obey your parent's rules, he would want you to obey his.

I obeyed my parents when I was younger because they provided me with home, food, money, education, transportation, guidance, support, and companionship. God is at least fifteen steps behind them in deserving anything from me.

And if the Bible is true, then it proves how people are not loyal and basically tell God to "screw off, we don't need you".

Then maybe it should occur to you that they might have a valid reason for rejecting him. Why would so many people turn against him if he truly deserved loyalty?

And if the Bible is true, then God also came in human form and experienced the same temptation and suffered much more than you or the average person. By being beaten, mocked, whipped, then nailed to a cross by his creation, all to make your life better.

First off, many people suffer much more than that. Starvation, torture, genocide, prison life, and even looking back at Jesus' own time, the thousands of slaves and people who were regularly crucified. What, you thought they came up with that punishment just for Jesus? How many thousands died after Sparticus' slave revolt? Jesus hasn't got jack on a lot of people.

Also, how exactly did he make my life better? By corrupting the Roman Empire with an exclusive religion that may have led to the downfall of one of the greatest nations ever and singlehandedly caused the Dark Ages, which paved the way for the rise of the Islamic empires during the same period, which is now responsible for the terrorism and war that plagues us now. Yeah, thanks a lot Jesus for 9/11 and the war in Iraq.

That would mean that a few hundred or thousand years later, people acknowledge this, but refuse to accept it. Claiming they'd rather live by their own rules rather his God's rules despite his beating and death.

THousands are beaten and die every year in violent regions. Do I devote my entire life and loyalty to them because of it? Getting your butt whooped on doesn't make you a worthy person or God. In fact, I think it demonstrates the very flaws in God's own creation that he got beated and killed for even visiting. Maybe he should have done a better job so he didn't need to implement an Emergency Patch later on.

And if the Bible is truth, then death also does not mean the end because it states that God created heaven and those who follow his rules will live eternally without pain or suffering.

Then why didn't he give those things to us in the first place? Sounds like a blatant scam to me: "Just give us your contact information, your absolute loyalty, and lots of money and you could be entered to win a PS3!" With no proof that he actually has the goods, God is no better than a con artist. I say, show me the goods and I'll show you the money.

So, provided the Bible is true, what have YOU done to earn a spot in that heaven?

What has God done to earn my Faith? I honestly don't care about Heaven or Hell at all; when I die, that will be a major turning point, so major that I don't believe it will still be the "Me" that lived. Eternal pain doesn't mean anything; pain is a physical thing in every form and humans grow numb to it with time. Also, besides the fact that Hell's origin as a story can be traced, eternal damnation is really a downright stupid idea with no real point. Why not just wipe people's souls away and save the effort, but use a story about Hell to scare them?

Heaven is meaningless; "perfect" can not exist because it is an undefined term, and happiness is not promiseable because each individual must define "happiness" for his or herself. Neither of the two are actual things, so they can't be promised, and I would much rather improve the world I currently live in to make it better than Heaven than to screw around on the bet that I'll go to a cool place later.

Me, I expect Obliviion after death. When I die, I am simply gone and no longer exist, period. In all its simplicity and directness, Oblivion can be the most utterly terrifying thing imagineable and the most peaceful and calming result. Oblivion makes sense, answers all questions, and finishes the story; Heaven and Hell are tools used to manipulate people on Earth and meaningless for their undefined and pointless natures. Why waste time with Earth because you, a "perfect" Being made a flawed creation when instead you could make a flawless creation already in Heaven and leave it at that.

I live by my own ethics, my own views of the world,and I believe in the absolute morality of one statement: Do not, through negligence or intention, harm others. If that means stealing money, stealing a life, stealing a wife, or punching someone, I dislike it. In only a strict sense of "harm," that one rule should guide you true. If someone attacks you, you may react and injure him severely, but that is still an immoral/bad thing, it is just justified. For any action, if it harms someone else then you may have a reason to not do it. I don't need 10 commandments, I only need 2 (the second being, Subjectivity is not an excuse or exception to Rule #1).

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At 7/2/07 12:49 AM, Draconias wrote:

At 7/2/07 12:01 AM, Memorize wrote: Question: If God exists, then he is responsible for your being here (I don't he picked you out, I mean without him, there wouldn't be a you).

Is Loyalty inherently earned by fatherhood? No.

Nope. But you do however feel a sense of attachment towards your parents, do you not?

And yes, we are all exactly that son: born from a man and himself (his rib), out of wedlock, and after being thrown from God's household (Eden).

Let me replay the scenario of the garden of eden. God set up a world where there was no disease and no death. No pain and no suffering. Their ONLY commandment? Do not eat from the tree. He even warned them that they would die. And they did it anyway.

Whose fault is that?

God is at least fifteen steps behind them in deserving anything from me.

You really are one, huge cluster fuck aren't you?

Why would so many people turn against him if he truly deserved loyalty?

One reason: Selfishness. Greed.

You know. The "I want it my way" attitude, that you and people like you always have.

Think about how it works. You have people who are loyal. Eventually through generations, you get those who do not wish to be loyal, and when they have children, they teach them not to be loyal.

It's like a disease that spreads.

Kind of like... you.

First off, many people suffer much more than that.

Hence: Average person.

Starvation,

Yep, Jesus had that.

torture,

Yep, had that too.

genocide,

I'll go with "killed", so yes, that too.

prison life,

Jesus was found innocent by Pilot, but because the people did not like Jesus, he was crusified anyway.

So... yes.

and even looking back at Jesus' own time, the thousands of slaves and people who were regularly crucified.

Yeah.

What, you thought they came up with that punishment just for Jesus?

No.

Apparently you have a problem reading.

How many thousands died after Sparticus' slave revolt?

How many people live and die normal lives without anything you mentioned?

Oh, that's right. Billions.

Jesus hasn't got jack on a lot of people.

Well, you've just proved your own ignorance. So what you say if fine by me. I don't have to really listen to a crack pot anyway.

Yeah, thanks a lot Jesus for 9/11 and the war in Iraq.

So much for free will.

Tsk, tsk.

Gunna cry? Want my sholder?

THousands are beaten and die every year in violent regions.

Yep. While we sit back on our chairs and watch tv and type away on the internet while doing nothing about it.

Do I devote my entire life and loyalty to them because of it?

No.

Then why didn't he give those things to us in the first place?

So first you're bitching about pain and death. Now you're bitching about it not being there since the beginning?

Wow... just wow. Are those wheels turning up there?

I always wonder how it would feel living with such a shit logic like your's.

I live by my own ethics,

There's that "my way" attitude.

heh, I hope you die a painful death. It'll make this world better to live in. Haha.

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It's cases where a child rapist is sentenced to only probation is what shreds what little faith I have left in humanity.

It's times in our history where no one gave one rat's ass about rapists is what strengthens what faith I DO have. "Rape" in terms of children is a MODERN thing, the more ancient definition being when a man screwed another man's wife. That was the ONLY acceptable definition of rape in ancient times.

Now we recognize women's rights, children's rights, etc. That's evolution, not decay. The system's not perfect, but it's far from decaying.

A woman can give a false testamony and it will "move" the Jury

The mere fact that you HAVE a jury is evidence enough of progress. Read up on Nero sometime. Guess what "jury" he stood in front of?

Point is, everything you consider "progress" is all based on people's emotions on not wanting to be personally hurt or feel pain.

Everything is based on someone's emotion. International rules are very generic for a reason; they are based on what EVERYONE feels.

Fact is, 2000 years ago, if my country lost a war, my wife would be raped, my children sold into slavery, my house burned to the ground, and I'd be summarily executed.

Today, my country can enter, fight, and lose a war without me having to worry the least bit about those problems. We have rules that dictate how an army is allowed to kill, so as to be humane. Are you seriously saying that based on history today is WORSE, even if you just base it on US history?

Exactly. You are part of this degrading society.

Upgrading society. We don't burn "witches" anymore, women have rights along with blacks, hispanics, etc, and we don't "remove" native americans from their lands....

I think you're basing a few bad cases in US history as the trend for all human kind. Over a long time scale, human morals have drastically evolved. Over the US time line, human morals have drastically evolved.

Shit, take today as an example. Most Americans disapprove of the war in Iraq. If we were morally bankrupt, we'd be supporting the war just for the fun of killing.

I really don't get how you can be so pessimistic about our morality, especially considering our generation has yet to experience some grand atrocity, Holocaust, purge, etc befalling us.

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First off, many people suffer much more than that. Starvation, torture, genocide, prison life, and even looking back at Jesus' own time, the thousands of slaves and people who were regularly crucified. What, you thought they came up with that punishment just for Jesus? How many thousands died after Sparticus' slave revolt? Jesus hasn't got jack on a lot of people.

I hate it when people place false accusations on things, especially as shoddy as this.

Spartacus' revolt happened like, 75 years before the birth of Jesus.

Also, how exactly did he make my life better? By corrupting the Roman Empire with an exclusive religion that may have led to the downfall of one of the greatest nations ever and singlehandedly caused the Dark Ages, which paved the way for the rise of the Islamic empires during the same period, which is now responsible for the terrorism and war that plagues us now. Yeah, thanks a lot Jesus for 9/11 and the war in Iraq.

Alright, this is like, 5 steps too far.
1st: Christianity did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire. I'm one class away from graduating with my Classics degree, and this is the FIRST time I've ever heard anyone make that claim.

2nd:
Time takes all things. The Roman Empire was doomed to fall anyways. Scipio cried when Carthage burned, because he knew one day Rome would burn as well. Rome was lucky by comparison to other empires. It still stands to this day.

3rd:
If you wanna blame someone (or something) for the Dark Ages, blame the French and Germans. FYI, the ones that sacked Rome and crippled its influence (thus causing the Dark Ages) were Pagan in one way or another.

Just try not to make the claim that Christianity caused the death of Rome again por favor... ;)

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At 7/2/07 01:41 AM, Memorize wrote:

At 7/2/07 12:49 AM, Draconias wrote: I live by my own ethics,

There's that "my way" attitude.

heh, I hope you die a painful death. It'll make this world better to live in. Haha.

Memorize, you are missing the fact that YOU chose to follow the Bible. You could also follow the Quran, or the Toran, or Secular ethics, or your own ethics, or min ethics, or Draconias's ethics instead of the Bible. There are many many many thousands things you can follow.

In fact, so many, that picking one of them is about the same as making your own from scratch.

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At 7/2/07 02:15 AM, Imperator wrote:

It's times in our history where no one gave one rat's ass about rapists is what strengthens what faith I DO have. "Rape" in terms of children is a MODERN thing, the more ancient definition being when a man screwed another man's wife. That was the ONLY acceptable definition of rape in ancient times.

Back then, people died much earlier in life.

The youngest you're ever going to get to a wife is 13.

You cannot compare today's society with that of one thousands of years ago. Haha, you're actually glad no one cares about it?

Haha, here you are. You say you're actually glad no one cares about it because no one cared about like that back then? Heh, help me, I can't understand your logic behind it.

Then again, what do I expect from someone who's part of this filthy, disgusting, piece of trash society we live in?

Now we recognize women's rights, children's rights, etc.

Children's rights. Just after you said you couldn't give a rat's ass. Haha.

That's evolution, not decay.

Those are not decay. What I listed was.

The problem with your progress is that eventually it will not stop. You don't realize that there are limits. And soon enough, horrible things will be permitted. Why? Because as long as it's not you who's being hurt, you could care less about the pain others feel. Haha, except of course, the ones who do inflict the pain.

The system's not perfect, but it's far from decaying.

HA!

You just don't get it. Rights for Women is progress. Children's rights is progress.

Felons voting is decay. Legal abortion is decay. Fighting to give terrorists rights is decay.

Not giving a rat's ass about child rape... is decay.

The mere fact that you HAVE a jury is evidence enough of progress.

We had that long before women's rights.

You seem to be confused.

Everything is based on someone's emotion.

And that is exactly your problem.

International rules are very generic for a reason; they are based on what EVERYONE feels.

They should not be based on emotion. They should be based soley on logic.

Fact is, 2000 years ago, if my country lost a war, my wife would be raped, my children sold into slavery, my house burned to the ground, and I'd be summarily executed.

Nations are too big for that now.

Today, my country can enter, fight, and lose a war without me having to worry the least bit about those problems.

And who started that trend? France.

We have rules that dictate how an army is allowed to kill, so as to be humane.

Decay.

In war, you are not to make a distinction between women and children.

The problem is that there are too many people not willing to kill an innocent to save millions.

Are you seriously saying that based on history today is WORSE, even if you just base it on US history?

Not worse. We're just starting the decaying process now.

Or rather, it started 40-50 years ago. During the Vietnam War.

Upgrading society. We don't burn "witches" anymore, women have rights along with blacks, hispanics, etc, and we don't "remove" native americans from their lands....

Here's your problem. You're comparing today with hundreds of years ago. We've been progressing since then.

But what you fail to realize, is that we're heading in the polar opposite direction with no signs of stopping. One end is just as bad as the other. Dictatorship is just as bad as Anarchy.

But which do you think people will choose? A society where one man dictates your life? Or one where you make every decision yourself? On one hand, you have no free will but you have security. On the the other, although you do what you wish, you have no security. The one people will choose is Anarchy simpley because of an emotional desire to do whatever one pleases.

I think you're basing a few bad cases in US history as the trend for all human kind.

No, just the US.

Certainly we're better off now than then. But today, we keep pushing to the opposite pole, because people only want what makes the individual feel better.

Shit, take today as an example. Most Americans disapprove of the war in Iraq. If we were morally bankrupt, we'd be supporting the war just for the fun of killing.

Another reason why we have started the decaying process.

Logically, the Iraq war is huge success. Least amount of losses. Ridding of a dictator. Iraq taking back its own country. Making another Israel, if you will.

Hell, we're even fighting for immediate trials for suspected insurgents and terrorists before the war is even over. We never did that in previous wars. Why do we do it? Because not only are people selfish and greedy, they'd rather give rights to the murderer and forget the victims.

Today we are emotional. One death is a tragedy and a cause for immediate pull causing the deaths of millions of innocents and a terror base just because you only care for what happens to your soldiers.

When it comes to the law, people only care about themselves. And when caught in big trouble, they will fight to change the law to better suit only the individual. When your nation is at war with another nation, 1 soldier's life is more important than 25 million innocent civilians.

I really don't get how you can be so pessimistic about our morality, especially considering our generation has yet to experience some grand atrocity, Holocaust, purge, etc befalling us.

The United States needs another holocuast. It needs another purge. There needs to be another world war to knock it back into its senses. We're weak. We're a failure in battle. We'd willing surrender to a group of people with outdated weaponry and no body armor.

Funny, those insurgents and terrorists have more spine than you or America ever will.

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At 7/2/07 02:31 AM, Imperator wrote: Alright, this is like, 5 steps too far.
1st: Christianity did not cause the downfall of the Roman Empire. I'm one class away from graduating with my Classics degree, and this is the FIRST time I've ever heard anyone make that claim.

though Christian pacifism and the refusal of many to join the legions didn't help as The Empire fell.

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At 7/2/07 02:34 AM, Drakim wrote:

Memorize, you are missing the fact that YOU chose to follow the Bible.

Yes, I did. Why? Because I find it fascinating that people who claim to know science actually know so very little.

You could also follow the Quran, or the Toran, or Secular ethics, or your own ethics, or min ethics, or Draconias's ethics instead of the Bible. There are many many many thousands things you can follow.

So true. However, I don't make it my personal business to attack someone's beliefs over the Internet so no one can harm me.

Do I go around on this forum criticizing people from out of nowhere just because they're catholic? Baptist? Islamic? Buhddist?

I don't think so. Strange for the amount of trolling I do, I never once actually jump on to anyone just because they believed in a higher power or didn't. I, unlike Ravarial, never uttered a single word stating that people should be required to believe a certain way just to run for political office.

For all of the language I use, for all of the trolling I do. When it comes to religion, i'm more tolerant than any of you.

In fact, the only time I ever attack someone on a religion thread is when they attack someone else's beliefs.

In fact, so many, that picking one of them is about the same as making your own from scratch.

Haha, it amuses me how truely ignorant you all are.

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At 7/2/07 02:37 AM, SolInvictus wrote: though Christian pacifism and the refusal of many to join the legions didn't help as The Empire fell.

I wonder what happened with that. Today, Christians aren't exactly known to be the most gentle people around, having massive hate campains, cheering on people when they are executed, bombing abortion-clinics and doctors, strongly pro-gun, ready to invade the countires "controlled by Satan", ect, ect.

(I never quite understood how Christians often are Republican. It doesn't seem to match up)

I know there are lots of Christians who still are very pacifistic and gentle, but, they seem to grow smaller and smaller in numbers.

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Memorize chose to follow the Bible? i thought he chose to bait people on newgrounds whenever possible.

though it probably says something about attacking idiots whenever possible in the Bible.

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I hate it when people place false accusations on things, especially as shoddy as this.

Spartacus' revolt happened like, 75 years before the birth of Jesus.

;
Jesus, as described in the bible never actually existed.
This is a list of many scholars , and authors who lived during & around the time that "Jesus" supposedly lived & performed his miracles & was actively preaching.
Rome was in control of the area at that time.
These Scholars all have written published works that have survived until this time.
Josephus,
Persius,
Lucanus,
Arrian,
Epictetus,
Petronius,
Quintus Curtius,
Damis,
Seneca,
Justine of Tiberius,
Silius Italicus,
Dion Pruseus,
Phaedrus,
Philo Judaeus,
Plutarch,
Lucian,
Pompon Mela,
Appion of Alexander,
Aulus Gellius,
Pliny the Elder,
Apollonius,
Statius,
Paterculus,
Pausanius,
Collemella,
Suetonius,
Pliny the younger,
Ptolemy,
Appian,
Valerius Flaccus,
Dio Chrysostom,
Juvenal,
Tacitus,
Hermogones,
Theron of Smyran,
Florus Lucius,
Lysias,
Martial,
Quintilian,
Vaterius Maximus,
Phligon,
Favorinus,
I found a piece on Philo Judaeus, where he was present befor , during & after The area where Jesus was suppose to have preached , performed miracles etc.
Quoting' John Remsberg--- Philo was born befor the begining of the Christian era, and lived until long after the reputed death of Christ. He wrote an account of the Jews covering the entire time that Christ is said to have existed on Earth.
He was living in or near Jerusalem when Christ's miraculous birth and the Herodian massacre occured. He was there when Christ made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem. He was there when the crucifixion and its attendant earthquake, supernatural darkness, and resurection of the dead took place-- when Christ himself rose from the dead and in the presence of many witnesses ascended into heavin.
These marvellous events which must have filled the world with amazement, Had They Really Occured, were unknown to him !' -----

Tell me how could all these great momentuous things happen & he not know it?
He was there as a scholar recording all the great persons & events... not one written word about Jesus .

As well Josephus a renouned historian who lived & wrote just after the death of Jesus, who was govenor for a time of Galilea. The place Jesus was suppose to have lived & taught. He traversed every part of this province & visited places where Jesus is said to have performed miracles. He resided in Cana where Christ supposedly performed his first miracle. He mentions every noted person of Palestine and describes every important event that had taken place there for the first 70 years of the christian era.
But Jesus Christ had done nothing of note to have even a (vague) mention from this famous scholar's pen.

IT doesn't take much work on our part folks, to prove the bible is a fabricated book.
A work of fiction for the gullible to hold out as the word of god.

The one REAL 'Son of god' on this planet rises in the East & sets in the West. It is also called the Sun, it just has the correct spelling. Because of its presence & our great fortune to be on planet not too close & not too far, the Sun gives us life.
Isn't that fact of our being, given the ability to live by the Sun, an object that can/is being studied & understood by scientists, does that not mean maybe we can someday learn the only true god is an incandescent ball of gas where hydrogen is built into helium at temperatures of millions of degrees.

Science may not have all the answers, but it doesn't hold up fabrications and half baked theories up to the world as Truth's. Unlike organized religions that require us to believe the lies & the make believe, that's somehow the way to salvation !

I think not.

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I didn't read any of that rant, but I bet it was scathing!

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At 7/2/07 10:59 AM, SlithVampir wrote: I didn't read any of that rant, but I bet it was scathing!

Come on, if you won't read a post, fine, nobody can force you, but why waste space posting about how you didn't read it? What possible gain could there be? +1 Post?

oh, right, +1 post :p

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At 7/1/07 02:05 PM, Ryuunosuke wrote: I never said it wasn't necessary.

Then that is what our disagreement stems from. You think that disagreement is an unambiguous derivative from a lack of human understanding, and I don't agree.

There is a difference between debates in politics and debates on religion. The debates in politics are never ending, yes, BUT that doesn't mean we don't understand because all political debates are on different topics and are eventually resolved. For debates on religion, they are all about the same thing, it validaty, and none of them have never been resolved

Not at all true. There are disagreements within religion and within nontheism; the disagreement doesn't necessarily have to be about the validity of the religion itself. For instance, there is a disagreement between Protestants and Catholics about whether or not respect should be paid to saints during or before / after prayer. Both sects are in agreement about the validity of the Bible.

Also, where did you get the idea that debates in politics are "eventually resolved"? Do you think the debate on abortion will ever be resolved? Which is more a moral debate than a political one, but my point still stands.

Exactly, and its the fact that we can't make any valid attempts that shows we can't understand or comprehend.

But people's perceptions of deities can be disproven. And we may not know whether or not a deity exists for sure, but we can prove that a deity isn't necessary to explain our existence and other things.

However, what can be disproven is people's perceptions of God.

How so?

Well for example, literalist Christians insist that Yahweh created the world in six days a few thousand years ago. This view has been disproven, as I'm sure you're aware of.

No, to adhere to a religion is not necessarily to understand, but to believe.

Perhaps I've approached this in the wrong way...faith by definition is contrary to reason.

Anyone who thinks they understand God and his workings is ignorant. But, that doesn't mean we don't understand him at all. We know that he is doing what is best for us and all that,

Tell me, how do you know that? And how do you defend your position that only some things are known about God "but not everything"? Surely everything about God is unknown, since he is beyond our understanding?

Nothing is known about the noumenal world; to claim "some" understanding of it to make things more convenient for yourself is foolish. I understand that it is your belief that your specific deity is the big leader of the universe, but you must accept that you do not, in fact, know anything for sure about your deity, and therefore whether or not it exists.

After all, I have already made the point that faith by definition runs contrary to reason.

its more of an inability to comprehend the WHY? and HOW?, those kind of things.

Refer to the argument above. Also, I apologise about the delayed reply.

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I was trying to make a point. Our friend morefngdbs went a little overboard, wouldn't you say?

I did read it. It was scathing.

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At 7/2/07 02:36 AM, Memorize wrote:
You cannot compare today's society with that of one thousands of years ago. Haha, you're actually glad no one cares about it?

What are you talking about. I never said I was GLAD no one cared, I merely said it was the fact of life back then.

Since we DO care, that is what STRENGTHENS my faith in humanity.

Do you have reading comprehension problems or something?

I can and will compare today's society with that of one thousands of years ago, since most aspects of it were adapted from said society.

We have a senate....gee....wonder where we got that idea from..... Senatus Populusque Romanus perhaps?

Haha, here you are. You say you're actually glad no one cares about it because no one cared about like that back then? Heh, help me, I can't understand your logic behind it.

"It's times in our history where no one gave one rat's ass about rapists is what strengthens what faith I DO have."

"Now we recognize women's rights, children's rights, etc. That's evolution, not decay."

Alright, I may have phrased things a little bit cooky, but I'm pretty sure the general idea should have gotten through. My resolve comes from the fact that we do care, because historically we didn't. Got it?

Then again, what do I expect from someone who's part of this filthy, disgusting, piece of trash society we live in?

.....right.....

Children's rights. Just after you said you couldn't give a rat's ass. Haha.

Please, show me where I say that I "couldn't give a rat's ass".

Those are not decay. What I listed was.

You listed a few examples of where decay occurred, or the system broke down. If you want to state it as a trend, you're going to have to PROVE that the decay is a trend. Jessica's Law was enacted to STOP the decay you were talking about.

The problem with your progress is that eventually it will not stop. You don't realize that there are limits.

Yes, a history major who doesn't recognize that progress eventually stops. A classics major who studies the rise and fall of the great western civilizations doesn't realize that the US will endure a similar fate....

Yeah....everything I say is clearly geared towards my ignorance of this......not.....

Felons voting is decay. Legal abortion is decay. Fighting to give terrorists rights is decay.

Felons don't vote. Abortion is still being discussed. And the boys in Gitmo haven't gotten jack squat. Where's your trend of decay?

Not giving a rat's ass about child rape... is decay.

Good thing WE do give a rat's ass.....progress....

They should not be based on emotion. They should be based soley on logic.

They're based on the golden rules of morality. Genocide is not logical.

We have rules that dictate how an army is allowed to kill, so as to be humane.

Decay.

Really? Well, I'd prefer to die in some way that isn't as painful as nerve gas that makes me cough up my own lungs and break my own back from convulsions.....

But if you're ok with nerve gas and shit, then ok....decay it is....

In war, you are not to make a distinction between women and children.

You're a pretty sick individual. You're supposed to make a distinction between combatants and non-combatants. Shit, even ancient societies did at least THAT much....

The problem is that there are too many people not willing to kill an innocent to save millions.

Explain how killing an innocent would save millions?

Here's your problem. You're comparing today with hundreds of years ago. We've been progressing since then.

So we've been decaying since Vietnam? What about world trends?

But what you fail to realize, is that we're heading in the polar opposite direction with no signs of stopping. One end is just as bad as the other. Dictatorship is just as bad as Anarchy.

What the hell are you talking about? I see no anarcy OR dictatorship in my lifetime, or even my kids' lifetime. There is NO indication of any such trend.

Logically, the Iraq war is huge success. Least amount of losses. Ridding of a dictator. Iraq taking back its own country. Making another Israel, if you will.

Logically it makes no sense. We haven't secured ANYTHING from Iraq as of yet. There's no stable government, no pillaging of resources. The only logical thing Iraq can be considered is a live fire training exercise.....

Hell, we're even fighting for immediate trials for suspected insurgents and terrorists before the war is even over. We never did that in previous wars.

Yeah, you're right. Back in the old days they were usually just shot on sight, or executed immediately....

Today we are emotional. One death is a tragedy and a cause for immediate pull causing the deaths of millions of innocents and a terror base just because you only care for what happens to your soldiers.

You'd do good to take some classes on political violence and historical memory....

When it comes to the law, people only care about themselves. And when caught in big trouble, they will fight to change the law to better suit only the individual. When your nation is at war with another nation, 1 soldier's life is more important than 25 million innocent civilians.

Depends on who's innocent civilians you're talking about, the manner of the war, the relationship between the combatants, etc. In the Civil War I bet the ratio was the exact same, if not inverted.

The United States needs another holocuast. It needs another purge. There needs to be another world war to knock it back into its senses. We're weak. We're a failure in battle. We'd willing surrender to a group of people with outdated weaponry and no body armor.

That's a sick and twisted mindset.

Funny, those insurgents and terrorists have more spine than you or America ever will.

Right.....you really show your true colors when you type disgruntled and aggressive....

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At 7/2/07 02:37 AM, SolInvictus wrote:
though Christian pacifism and the refusal of many to join the legions didn't help as The Empire fell.

That's more like icing on the cake really. But a legit point nonetheless.

At 7/2/07 10:41 AM, morefngdbs wrote: Jesus, as described in the bible never actually existed.

Thank you, but that really had nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was making or the topic being discussed....

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Thank you, but that really had nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was making or the topic being discussed....

And now that I look back on it, my post about Spartacus didn't really make much sense either....had no relevance.....

Ah well....

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At 7/2/07 12:11 AM, EndGameOmega wrote: No it's because the bible didn't say what it was, it's lacking in information to the question at hand.

the bible tells you the basics of Gods plan.
but if you want to know the plan of your life you need a personal relationship with Christ. just ask with faith and He will answer.
do you really think God would put His plan in the bible so any heathen could find out exactly what was gonna happen so they could repent right before they die?

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At 7/2/07 01:09 PM, The-JefFlet wrote: do you really think God would put His plan in the bible so any heathen could find out exactly what was gonna happen so they could repent right before they die?

Seriously, what sect do you belong to?

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At 7/2/07 01:11 PM, Togukawa wrote:

At 7/2/07 01:09 PM, The-JefFlet wrote: do you really think God would put His plan in the bible so any heathen could find out exactly what was gonna happen so they could repent right before they die?

Seriously, what sect do you belong to?

its called being a Christian homeboy.

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Science is good.
Religion is good.
However, they belong in separate containers!

All good, now?

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Seriously, what sect do you belong to?

its called being a Christian homeboy.

Hahah, that really didn't answer the question.....

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At 7/2/07 12:55 PM, Imperator wrote:

Do you have reading comprehension problems or something?

"It's times in our history where no one gave one rat's ass about rapists is what strengthens what faith I DO have"

You didn't say anything about, "well compared to today...".

What are you saying? That because no one gave a rat's ass, it gives you faith? Or because people then didn't give a rat's ass unlike today, it gives you faith?

It goes either way.

But at least people back then had the balls to execute people. Today, people demand the death of a child predator on the day they find out about it. Give a week, and they think that 5 years is a completely justified sentence.

I can and will compare today's society with that of one thousands of years ago, since most aspects of it were adapted from said society.

Considering the United States has officially been around for just 220 years.

We have a senate....gee....wonder where we got that idea from..... Senatus Populusque Romanus perhaps?

You still can't seem to comprehend what I mean by "decay".

Kind of sad, really.

Alright, I may have phrased things a little bit cooky, but I'm pretty sure the general idea should have gotten through. My resolve comes from the fact that we do care, because historically we didn't. Got it?

That's the problem. We care so much that we're willing to give terrorists our freedoms. We care so much we're willing to give a child rapist probation because we're too afraid he might be hurt in prison.

We care so much, only a woman will ever be able to get off with killing 5 of her own children.

A serial killer will be sentenced to life with a chance for appeal after 20 years.

Heh, hell, a baby sitter can kill a child and be sentenced to "you can never baby sit in this state again".

The decay that i'm talking about is that we're moving in a direction where personal responsibility is dying, and people feel the need to protect criminals.

You listed a few examples of where decay occurred, or the system broke down. If you want to state it as a trend, you're going to have to PROVE that the decay is a trend. Jessica's Law was enacted to STOP the decay you were talking about.

And what did it take to put in place?

We all knew things like with what happend to Jessica occured. Why did it take this long?

Because when people simpley don't hear about it, they don't care. If they hear about a child rapist, they don't care as they're used to hearing about it. It took the kidnapping of a little girl, the rape of a little girl, and then the brutal slaying of a little girl in order to wake people up.

So congrats. We were able to stop 1 thing at least. Now we just need another world war with more developed nations to stop the protesting and whining about POWs not having trials during a time of war.

Felons don't vote. Abortion is still being discussed. And the boys in Gitmo haven't gotten jack squat. Where's your trend of decay?

Take a look around

Abortion is legal.

And they're actually discussing to reduce Gitmo's funding by half.

What's the point on having this place if you're not going to use it?

They're based on the golden rules of morality. Genocide is not logical.

Yes. Do to others what you would want them to do to you.

That is of course unless someone does to you that you wouldn't do to others. Like, murder, rape, child abuse. That's when the Golden Rule ceaces to exist with those criminals.

Someone murders someone, they get placed in a cell, with their own bed, own facility, 3 meals a day, and quite possibley tv (they have them where I live anyway). If they really wanted to pay back their debt, we would experiment on them for medical research. But, of course, people would claim that it's too cruel. Just like the imprisonment of Terror suspects at Gitmo. Boo hoo.

Really? Well, I'd prefer to die in some way that isn't as painful as nerve gas that makes me cough up my own lungs and break my own back from convulsions.....

Justice is only truely just when the criminal is put through the same physical or psychological truama he/she put the victim in. If not, then Justice is not about equality.

But if you're ok with nerve gas and shit, then ok....decay it is....

I'd go with whatever is cheaper. Just a bullet would do.

You're a pretty sick individual. You're supposed to make a distinction between combatants and non-combatants.

Comatants and non-combatants are different.

But like I said before, people aren't willing to kill 1 innocent in order to save even millions.

Explain how killing an innocent would save millions?

Hypothetical.

Would you?

So we've been decaying since Vietnam? What about world trends?

Like I said. I'm only talking about the United States.

What the hell are you talking about? I see no anarcy OR dictatorship in my lifetime, or even my kids' lifetime. There is NO indication of any such trend.

I was hypothetical, again. Which would people choose based on human emotion?

Logically it makes no sense. We haven't secured ANYTHING from Iraq as of yet. There's no stable government, no pillaging of resources. The only logical thing Iraq can be considered is a live fire training exercise.....

Why is that? Because you hate president Bush? Because things aren't working fast enough for you?

That's your's and the people's main problem about Iraq. You all thought we'd be done overnight and now you're acting like children. The mere fact that anyone thought this war would be over quickly is too stupid to be invovled in politics at all.

Not to mention, the only time you actually believe we've made no progress at all, is when you tell the soldiers in Iraq to fuck off.

AppealForCourage.org
Site created by a soldier in Iraq.

Yeah, you're right. Back in the old days they were usually just shot on sight, or executed immediately....

Heh, it's better than the people protesting outside demanding we give them trials before the war is even over.

You'd do good to take some classes on political violence and historical memory....

Heh, way to counter act me on that one.

That's a sick and twisted mindset.

People need a disaster in order to fix their problems. To get them to think. It's how it works.

Do you deny that 9/11 united a country for a short time?

Right.....you really show your true colors when you type disgruntled and aggressive....

At least they're willing to fight than run away like cowards, even if the way they fight is cowardly to begin with.

They're more courageous than about 60% of Americans.

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At 7/2/07 12:31 PM, SlithVampir wrote: I was trying to make a point. Our friend morefngdbs went a little overboard, wouldn't you say?

I did read it. It was scathing.

;
Slith, you can call me 'More', calling me More FuN GoD BlesS is way to formal .(in my opinion)
I just get worked up sometimes by the people who are religious (which if it makes you happy, go for it) use their 'Faith' and their "bible' as the be all and end all to any/every fact & or argument that contradicts their belief's.

I'm not trying to get people to not believe in god.
But I can prove your bible & christianity was/is a mechanism that Through the Emperor Constantine, of Rome in about A.D. 325 with the backing of the Bishops of that time brought into being, & it was pretty much the controling factor for 1500 years.

I'm not trying to get you to give up whatever form of control you wish to subject yourself to.
I'm sometimes frustrated by the arguments presented by the religious against what is being discovered or being investigated by scientists, doctors, inventors as being somehow unholy or wrong........purely based on their logic that the bible or their spritual leader or the neighbors dog, Whatever ,says it can't be right. Or is somehow unholy or is going against the teachings of a book of fiction.

The bible says same sex couples are wrong.
Sex out side of marriage is wrong.
Birthcontrol is wrong.
They are using their belif's to try to stop stem cell research, something that is making groundbreaking advances into our understanding of the human cell & how to alter & or repair it & the body it is part of.

Stop trying to keep mankind from advancing, because it somehow doesn't sync with your religious ideas.

Please people try to look at the world through your own eyes.
Weigh what good something may bring to mankind, instead of trying to find if it is good or evil according to your book & or religions dogma.
Question what you see, If our eyes & senses weren't easily fooled ,magicians & con men would never have been able to exisit.
Look for all sides of a story-it may have more than 2 sides to it.