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At 3/23/07 07:25 PM, Memorize wrote:

And yet, I still wasn't talking you.

You mean wasn't talking to you.

But lets not fight on this thread unless it is about this thread.

lets be freinds.

My stance on the whole thing is when i see some evidence something is real then i will take it seriously. If you started righting a percentage of god being real based on the evidence given today at the start of the known universe, you would still be writing zeros.

Also please stop bickering in this thread it is really pathetic.

I have a question. If God loves all of his children (aka us)

Then why may I ask does he not show himself? Then that way everyone will believe in him and the atheiths will become theists and not go to hell.

To "Test our faith"

Just like fossils and carbon dating...and background radiation... and all the other evidence showing the world is more than 6,000 years old.

At 3/23/07 09:00 PM, Jesus-made-me-do-it wrote: Then why may I ask does he not show himself? Then that way everyone will believe in him and the atheiths will become theists and not go to hell.

how do you know He hasn't?

At 3/23/07 09:12 PM, SolInvictus wrote: how do you know He hasn't?

A lack of evidence does in no way infer a reality.

At 3/23/07 09:27 PM, FeargusMcDuff wrote:

A lack of evidence does in no way infer a reality.

Because, you know the absolute truth because you've died before.

At 3/23/07 09:27 PM, FeargusMcDuff wrote:

At 3/23/07 09:12 PM, SolInvictus wrote: how do you know He hasn't?

A lack of evidence does in no way infer a reality.

learn to read dumbass.

Clearly the universe is not random, so I fail to see why faith is needed to explain its uniformity. Other than that, however, most of the universe's uniformity can be explained through the four fundamental laws of physics.

In other words, the distribution of stars throughout galaxies is a result of gravitation working between the stars as opposed to a supreme deity holding it together.

Yes, you're right, but you're missing the point here, WHERE did gravitation and those fundamental laws that are creating order get THEIR precise properties? Since it is obvious they AREN'T random, where do they get their order?-- They COULD have been represented in an infinite number of ways, but yet they all came together in an EXACT way that allows all this to exist, and us to discuss it.

In other words, if the Universe IS fine tuned, doesn't that mean there must be a FINE TUNER?

Guitars don't tune themselves, they don't make themselves, and they don't play themselves either, the instruments of the universe are different?

At 3/23/07 11:30 PM, TheBigPicture wrote:

Clearly the universe is not random, so I fail to see why faith is needed to explain its uniformity. Other than that, however, most of the universe's uniformity can be explained through the four fundamental laws of physics.

In other words, the distribution of stars throughout galaxies is a result of gravitation working between the stars as opposed to a supreme deity holding it together.

Yes, you're right, but you're missing the point here, WHERE did gravitation and those fundamental laws that are creating order get THEIR precise properties? Since it is obvious they AREN'T random, where do they get their order?-- They COULD have been represented in an infinite number of ways, but yet they all came together in an EXACT way that allows all this to exist, and us to discuss it.

In other words, if the Universe IS fine tuned, doesn't that mean there must be a FINE TUNER?

Guitars don't tune themselves, they don't make themselves, and they don't play themselves either, the instruments of the universe are different?

Actually, they are. You seem to think every little thing in the universe is 100% perfect for us humans.

Hate to break it for you, but it isn't. First of all we have stuff that doesn't benefit us in any way, such as black holes, supernovas, ect. There isn't any black holes that "has to be there" for us to survive.

Then, there are those things that may kill us, such as comets, unfiltered rays from the sun, our sun exploding in the future, the moon slowly crashing down, ect.

Have you ever thought about gravity? How many people has died since the dawn of mankind due to gravity? Everything from falling down heights to tripping over stuff and having your skulll cracked open. What the gravity on earth was less? so, a lot of those accidents never had to happen? wouldn't you call that more "fine tuned"?

Besides, fine tuned the fine tuner? Explaining things with God just makes stuff a hell lot more complicated.

At 3/24/07 08:02 AM, Drakim wrote:

Hate to break it for you, but it isn't. First of all we have stuff that doesn't benefit us in any way, such as black holes, supernovas, ect. There isn't any black holes that "has to be there" for us to survive.

Yes but they are neaded to keep the universe going, and not get too hot for us or to not expand infinatly till every thing is out of gravity and moving so fast we all die.

Then, there are those things that may kill us, such as comets, unfiltered rays from the sun, our sun exploding in the future, the moon slowly crashing down, ect.

What fun would life be with out 'dangers' to overcome? seroiusly, with out dangers there is no need to advance, everything would just be the way it has all ways bean.

Besides, fine tuned the fine tuner? Explaining things with God just makes stuff a hell lot more complicated.

Not realy, it in fact has no impact, I belive the universe was created and laws such as gravity were created as apart of, were as atheists have only there gut instinct and opinions about our world witch is full of next to impossible to guess and how the world works and was created with out a deity. And yet have not explained anything so far that is real.

At 3/24/07 08:25 AM, Zoraxe7 wrote: Not realy, it in fact has no impact, I belive the universe was created and laws such as gravity were created as apart of, were as atheists have only there gut instinct and opinions about our world witch is full of next to impossible to guess and how the world works and was created with out a deity. And yet have not explained anything so far that is real.

What kind of creator created the universe? What kind of power did he use? How long time, and in what order did he do it? Why did he do it at all? How was it before he created the universe? How did the creator come to exists before existence?

Saying that atheists just guesses and use their gut feeling, you should look at what you are saying yourself first. Can you answer any of the above questions? To me, as I read your post right now, you are saying "something did it". That is all. If you start saying more stuff about this "somebody", then you have no evidence or anything to back you up. How can you accuse other theories of being full of holes when THAT is your theory? How can we use "somebody did it" for anything in science?

Futhermore, why do you belive it? As far as I've seen, nobody has ever presented evidence for this "sombody". All I've seen is people bashing all other theories such as evolution, so that only their theory is the one standing. But, that isn't enough, you have to actually give reason and evidence along with the claim.

Imagen this happen in ANY other situation, and you'll see how absurd it is. Can't prove evolution? go get rid all kinds of religions so that there is no alternative!

Althought we have a long way to go, science has actually uncovered quite a lot. We found out that things aren't made of fire, water, earth and air, but, atoms. Tiny tiny things that you can't even see with the most powerful telescope we have.

We also know that the earth isn't the center of the universe, but that we go around the sun, and that the sun isn't even the center of the univerese. We know that stars aren't small angels over us, but other suns, far far away.

Just because science doesn't have all the answers right now doesn't mean it is flawed or weak. We usually find out stuff if given time.

At 3/24/07 08:25 AM, Zoraxe7 wrote: Yes but they are neaded to keep the universe going, and not get too hot for us or to not expand infinatly till every thing is out of gravity and moving so fast we all die.

No, they are not needed at all. If only the sun and our planet existed, that would be entirely enough for our existance. Everything else is simply an added danger. Also, your claim show a completely lack of understanding about gravity and other details.

1. Gravity does not run out, it only becomes diluted by distance. Our distance from the Earth is not increasing.
2. You can't die from "moving so fast," you can only die from stopping.
3. The rest of the universe has virtually no effect at all on the temperature of our planet-- one lightbulb probably has more effect than everything extrasolar combined.

What fun would life be with out 'dangers' to overcome? seroiusly, with out dangers there is no need to advance, everything would just be the way it has all ways bean.

These aren't the sort of dangers you can "overcome." These are the type that kill everyone, without regard to anything you think you can do. If a big enough comet hits, you're dead, period. If we get caught in a super nova, we're all gone, period. There's no "overcome," no day-to-day motivation, just death.

Discomfort, boredom, and ambition lead to change. These dangers just kill you.

Not realy, it in fact has no impact, I belive the universe was created and laws such as gravity were created as apart of, were as atheists have only there gut instinct and opinions about our world witch is full of next to impossible to guess and how the world works and was created with out a deity. And yet have not explained anything so far that is real.

Okay, I need to break this down into two pieces:

First of all, the ever-looming question: If the Universe is so reat that we needed a God to make it, who made God? However God was created could be the same way the Universe was created. He is an un-needed complication and any answer to his origin can explain the origin of the Universe and eliminate him as a variable. If God "always was," then the Universe could have "always been" without a God in the mix. If God "created himself," then the Universe could have "created itself" without a God in the mix. Get my drift? God is an extra cog in the clock-- we don't need him, he just jams the gears.

Second, what's this trash about "athiests have only [their] gut instinct and opinions"? You do realize this is the Science and Religion thread? Science, the secondary support of Athiesm (with Logic being the primary), is all about facts and reasoned observation. In truth, it is the Thiests who rely only on gut desires and taught opinion; most of the Thiests actively scorn the suggestion of proof, instead demanding Faith, because proof can only destroy Religion.

I'll give you the No-God plan of Universe Creation, and if you give me a complete one for God's Plan of Universe Creation (explaining the mechanisms, as specifically as possible, and going to the very beginning), then I'll give you a bit more credit.

Rough No-God Plan:
Void -> Asymmetry -> Big Bang -> Expansion + cooling ->
Consolidation of matter, asymmetrical lean against anti-matter ->
Asymmetical gravitational clumping -> Star formation ->
Star debris spreads + more star formation ->
Star debris clumps into planets too far away to fall into star ->
At least one happens to fit a relatively stable temperature range ->
Complex chain molecules form naturally based on common elements ->
Earth + Life.

Yeah, it's long and confusing, but it boils down to this: No "God" is necessary, only a single asymmetry, and I know for a fact that your God is not Asymmetry, but an "infinitely complex being." Sure, you can try to wrangle your way into defining your God as that Asymmetry, but you need proof, not clever fact-twisting and propaganda.

It wouldn't matter if society killed off every element of religion in the known universe and became enlightened. Scientists and the enlightened would continue work in the name of national and personal interests; they did it in World War II and the Cold War.

As long as weapons become more efficient, there will always be war and inequality. Science will never disprove or prove the existance of God, because it's not geared to solve that way.

At 3/24/07 01:26 PM, Nylo wrote: It wouldn't matter if society killed off every element of religion in the known universe and became enlightened. Scientists and the enlightened would continue work in the name of national and personal interests; they did it in World War II and the Cold War.

As long as weapons become more efficient, there will always be war and inequality. Science will never disprove or prove the existance of God, because it's not geared to solve that way.

Why should it? I mean, lets say we proved God right now. With our God-testing machine, we can find him. Now what? Does everything chance?

Oh, but, now, we found out there is no God. Our God-testing machine replied FALSE. Now what? Does everything chance?

And what is with your hate against scientists? I mean, they aren't ONE person. The majority of scientists right now are HELPING humanity. The computer you sit at is a result of science, the electric power you use, the warm isolation in your house that keeps you warm, the lightblub that lights your room, the car that drives you to school/work, ect ect. Scientists are working for cures for illnesses, such as chancer or AIDS.

Do you really think every scientists is currently inventing new missiles and bombs?

At 3/23/07 09:12 PM, SolInvictus wrote:

At 3/23/07 09:00 PM, Jesus-made-me-do-it wrote: Then why may I ask does he not show himself? Then that way everyone will believe in him and the atheiths will become theists and not go to hell.

how do you know He hasn't?

(Looks out window)

Nope, dont see him. Maybe he's dead or has cancer.

At 3/24/07 06:24 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Nope, dont see him. Maybe he's dead or has cancer.

With that kind of logic, gravity doesn't exist.

At 3/24/07 07:03 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 3/24/07 06:24 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Nope, dont see him. Maybe he's dead or has cancer.

With that kind of logic, gravity doesn't exist.

*drops a pencil*... saw that...

At 3/24/07 07:03 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 3/24/07 06:24 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Nope, dont see him. Maybe he's dead or has cancer.

With that kind of logic, gravity doesn't exist.

Oh dear god must you make every single semi serous post into a debate? I dont care. Honestly you people arguing in this thread is.......daft.

Yes debating is one thing but you've managed to go WAY beyond that.

And besides I don't care about religion anyway so it doesn't matter.

At 3/24/07 07:20 PM, Ravariel wrote:

At 3/24/07 07:03 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 3/24/07 06:24 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Nope, dont see him. Maybe he's dead or has cancer.

With that kind of logic, gravity doesn't exist.

*drops a pencil*... saw that...

why is my pencil on falling?

At 3/24/07 07:26 PM, SolInvictus wrote: why is my pencil on falling?

not* falling...

At 3/24/07 07:24 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Oh dear god must you make every single semi serous post into a debate? I dont care. Honestly you people arguing in this thread is.......daft.

Sounds more like an excuse so you won't have to actually argue with me. I'm deeply hurt.

At 3/24/07 08:32 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 3/24/07 07:24 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Oh dear god must you make every single semi serous post into a debate? I dont care. Honestly you people arguing in this thread is.......daft.

Sounds more like an excuse so you won't have to actually argue with me. I'm deeply hurt.

Do not go there my good man. I admit I have alts and in the past I would go day after day arguing about religion and science. I got to the point where I realised no matter how much evidence I gave and got back I didn't change their minds and they didn't change mine.

So shut up, hug a rainbow and dont start flame wars you troll.

At 3/24/07 08:39 PM, Brick-top wrote:

So shut up, hug a rainbow and dont start flame wars you troll.

1. I'm not a hippy.
2. Thank you, I like it when people don't realize my fake nature.

At 3/24/07 08:55 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 3/24/07 08:39 PM, Brick-top wrote:

So shut up, hug a rainbow and dont start flame wars you troll.

1. I'm not a hippy.
2. Thank you, I like it when people don't realize my fake nature.

Do you wonder why you have no friends. I bet you're a Dre-man alt or something.

At 3/24/07 08:56 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Do you wonder why you have no friends. I bet you're a Dre-man alt or something.

I hate alts.

It doesn't matter to me either if I have friends or not. Altho what scares me the most if half my school seems to know me when I don't even recognize the majority of them.

At 3/24/07 08:59 PM, Memorize wrote:

At 3/24/07 08:56 PM, Brick-top wrote:

Do you wonder why you have no friends. I bet you're a Dre-man alt or something.

I hate alts.

Good for you, now you can talk to yourself and it wont be clasified as insanity.

BTW
This conversation is over!

At 3/24/07 08:55 PM, Memorize wrote: 1. I'm not a hippy.

But you sure are hip!

At 3/24/07 01:26 PM, Nylo wrote:

Science will never disprove or prove the existance of God, because it's not geared to solve that way.

Why should it? I mean, lets say we proved God right now. With our God-testing machine, we can find him. Now what? Does everything chance?

Science will never prove or disprove God because science relies on logical thinking. Science may disprove certain aspects of RELIGION, like time-scales and historical references; but never the concept of a one, true Creator. Your "God-testing machine" would be using tangible evidence to solve something that's not tangible. It's like trying to divide by negative numbers; you'll get an imaginary response.

The best bet science will ever have in the scope of proving/disproving God will be theoretical assumptions; which is basically what religion is. Ironic.

And what is with your hate against scientists? I mean, they aren't ONE person. The majority of scientists right now are HELPING humanity. The computer you sit at is a result of science, the electric power you use, the warm isolation in your house that keeps you warm, the lightblub that lights your room, the car that drives you to school/work, ect ect. Scientists are working for cures for illnesses, such as chancer or AIDS.

I'm saying that science is not exempt from evil, no matter how well-intentioned it's purpose is. Science, like religion, is extremely powerful and influencial. Do you think Nazi and Soviet scientists thought they were doing anything evil when they developed better technology, weapons, and an understanding of the human body? Of course not. But scientist are responsible to nations and states. Whenever the technology of a society improves, so does it's power to kill.

To reiterate, you could wipe out every element of religious thinking and war would continue, as well as become deadlier with every generation. Science and common sense do NOT go hand-in-hand.

Mankind discovers gunpowder: Lets use it to make guns
Mankind invents the sail-boat: Lets put guns on it and make it a battleship
Mankind splits the atom: Lets make it a bomb
Mankind invents the airplane: Lets put guns AND bombs on it

It doesn't matter how well intentioned, or how enlightened people are. Because even without religion, people are loyal to something. Family, country, race; you get the picture. You see, your view that the supersticious will fall to the enlightenment of man is wrong, because it contradicts human nature. It doesn't matter if enlightened people rule the destiny of mankind or if it's clergymen, because rulers are loyal by nature and committed to defending their nation at all costs.

It's not about hating scientists, it's about acknowledging their nature, accepting it, and working with it.

At 3/24/07 08:56 PM, Brick-top wrote: Do you wonder why you have no friends. I bet you're a Dre-man alt or something.

Memorize can't be Dre-Man's alt. when Memorize acts like a jackass to people on the thread its generally entertaining. when Dre-Man insults and tries to argue with people, even people you think are wrong, it makes you want to jump off a bridge.