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At 7/17/08 07:45 PM, Imperator wrote:

I don't feel you're correct in doing that all the time however, because I'd rather someone be a little stupid and happy and thus generally not a nuisance than have their world view come crashing down;

But when does it end?
When do you tell them about Santa Claus?

Because it's creating truly ridiculous and divisive problems we shouldn't have.

Cause I'm not a total dick. In most cases religious people do not use their religion in any other fashion than to give them hope, strength, and lovey dovey feelings for themselves.

I won't go to their house to piss on that, but in a public sphere, they should know what the fuck's up.
If they want to go Amish and shut out reason, they can do that, but I have no clue how you can maintain such beliefs when confronted with the world.
I guess they're just arrogant to think that muslims are somehow less faithful than they are, and vice-versa.

I mean this is insane. We can't shield them from the truth and confrontation 24/7 just because it makes them happy. In public, the truth takes priority. In their homes they can believe whatever they want.

Obviously it's expected that the public view will trump the in-house crap over the years.

I care about the truth, but then again, "the truth" to someone who studies history merits a 50 pg discussion on just what the fuck that entails.

We know Christians are telling bold-faced lies.
We know Jesus didn't rise from the dead. We don't need an historic document that says "nope, Jesus did indeed stay dead".
People don't rise from the dead. It's a lie that they are perpetrating as historic truth.
Doesn't that piss you off?

Don't you want to tell them to cram that into their buttholes?

At 7/17/08 08:01 PM, poxpower wrote:
But when does it end?
When do you tell them about Santa Claus?

Parents seem generally content with letting kids believe in Santa Clause. They don't go around to their five year olds yelling "NO you fucking idiot! Santa is a made up character, Dec. 25 th is just a day selected by some old fucks to give presents to each other!"

Cops trying to get suicide jumpers to stop generally don't tell them "You're right, nobody really gives a rat's ass who you are, you have no friends, and no one's gonna miss you when you're gone" either, in case you didn't know.......

Like I said, sometimes the lie is more important than the truth. Everyone needs a little sheltering, and how each person gets that is not my business to decide.

Because it's creating truly ridiculous and divisive problems we shouldn't have.

If they want to go Amish and shut out reason, they can do that, but I have no clue how you can maintain such beliefs when confronted with the world.

You'd have to get off your ass, do some research, and, here's the kicker, ask the Amish.

It's not my place to tell them to learn how to drive, I don't know why you feel it should be yours.....

Frankly, if I were to do something like that, It'd be telling guys like you to head back to college to educate yourselves on something other than a degree in finger painting.......but like I said, I'm not a total dick......

I guess they're just arrogant to think that muslims are somehow less faithful than they are, and vice-versa.

Yeah. They're also just like every sports fan ANYWHERE claiming their team's the best. Which is good and fine until some drunken idiot starts a bar fight over it.

Talk to Red Wings fans: They think the RW are the best team ever, and that the Avalanche don't even qualify as "professional" hockey players.

Talk to Avalanche fans: they think the Avs are the best team ever, and that the Red Wings don't even qualify as "professional" hockey players.

Better yet, talk to Michigan people about Ohio State. Then talk to Ohio State people about Michigan.

It's sort of natural tendency to believe your group is the best and the other group sucks.....because it happens to be the group you're in.....

In public, the truth takes priority.

Don't ever run for public office. "Top Secret" seems to be a term you're not familiar with either.....

And quite frankly, there are some things about my government I'd prefer not to know anyways.....

We know Christians are telling bold-faced lies.
We know Jesus didn't rise from the dead. We don't need an historic document that says "nope, Jesus did indeed stay dead".
People don't rise from the dead. It's a lie that they are perpetrating as historic truth.
Doesn't that piss you off?

no. Why should it? Seriously, why's it getting you mad?

Getting pissed off because someone believes something that isn't right? Do you get pissed at kids for believing in Santa too? I mean Jesus Pox.....where does THAT line of reasoning end? Telling 3 year olds about their social responsibility to the world?

Shit's gone sour enough as is. Teen suicide rates jumped 8% last year, and you wanna take away comforting thoughts of belonging and being loved? You wanna tell more people there's no invisible man in the sky who loves them?

Don't you want to tell them to cram that into their buttholes?

Well I've never actually been approached by anyone other than a Mormon handing out cards. I told him "no thanks" and went on my merry way, and he his.

Nothing more was needed. If that had been you, what would you have done? Got in his face, started a protest group?

No, I don't want to tell them to stuff it. What the hell would that solve? What the fuck is the matter with you anyways?

Completely unrelated, I just got done reading it, so I have no real comment yet, other than "interesting article".

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/scienc e/18law.html?pagewanted=1

At 7/17/08 07:21 PM, Imperator wrote: Do me a favor, DON'T try to pretend like I'm on "your side". I've probably got the goods on the Christian religion more than anyone else here, and if I really felt it (which you're helping), I'll "jump ship" to the other side and throw some "little known facts" about the Christian religion that'll make your head fuck spin.

I was just trying to say I agree with you : (
My last post wasnt my greatest, I know, its just that I like history, so i thought (stupidly) that bringing it up would lighten things up here, and im not as good as other people here, well, im just a high school student, im not as educated as you, or pox. and if I have bean making stupid arguments all this time I wish I had know, but I have been trying. So im sorry if I am in your way with your war path on Pox.

There's guys like Shaggy on one side, guys like Malignant on the other, and then people like Pox and yourself, who can't seem to actually create decent arguments, no matter how valid their points actually are.

Am I realy that bad? Or are you just using me to make swipes at poxpower?

My last post wasn't my greatest, I know, its just that I like history, so i thought (stupidly) that bringing it up would lighten things up here

Fuck that, this is personal. The government already does a bang up job of trying to tell me what's good for me (as if those assholes knew best), I don't need some prick I've never met telling me the same over an internet forum.

And that's EXACTLY what this is, Pox telling me (and every other spiritually minded person) what's best for me. I'm telling him exactly what he'd tell me if I were in his shoes "kindly fuck off before I find a large stick to beat you with".

Am I realy that bad? Or are you just using me to make swipes at poxpower?

As far as I know you haven't posted anything recent anyways, but I do remember the last argument from you I read about this topic made me want to take a soldering iron to my eyes (another case where absolute "Truth" is probably not the optimal preference for doing things. There goes that interpersonal relationship). Might have been an isolated incident though. Take some time and post something up, if it's not irritatingly bad, you probably won't hear from me.

Now I've got to look back over the last few pages and check on this "Creek" idiot.

See, I generally assume people here are idiots until proven otherwise. I used to do it the other way, but the exceptions started to outweigh the rule itself, so I inverted it. So don't take my harshness the wrong way, I'm not biased against you, I think everyone's an idiot at first, and am occasionally pleasantly surprised at being wrong.

At 1/18/07 10:37 AM, DJ-Jerakai wrote: Ok, so religion has the bible, the koran, the holy scriptures and so fourth and so on, but Science has everything else plus logic.

Science has disproved many Christian theories, such as the evolution of man, contrary to the theory of Adam and Eve.

So! This raises several questions.
Firstly, why do people still believe that mankind descended from Adam and Eve in the face of Sheer scientific fact?

And secondly, how long will it be before Science completely disproves the theory of how god made earth and validates the big bang theory?

Thirdly, once that happends, would faithfuls continue to blindly ignore scientific facts and follow disproven religious texts?

Any other questions?

Any answers?

I have no questions
But my answer is that all good Christians have faith. Even in the face of scientific fact, can you explain anything about God? Can you explain how he is everywhere at once? No you can't. And before you go saying that that isn't real, remember that that is what us Christians believe. So it's very damn real to us. Don't go waltzing around with "scientific proof" about something that exists only through pure faith. My faith is what makes me believe that God created everything, including your science fool.

I have a question:Do you people enjoy arguing?

I mean, seriously, there really is no point. There MAY be a God, there MAY not be a God, and the world MAY be taken over by evil flying monkies, but it does't really make a rat's shit worth of difference whether or not we can prove who is right and who is not right. It is like arguing about what 1+1 equals. The fact that 1+1=2 has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with the price of oil in China. We will all find out one way or another about if there is a God or gods, but until then, it doesn't really make a difference about who is right and who is wrong. It doesn't even matter to anyone whether they are right or not. The more important thing is that the other person is WRONG.

At 7/17/08 08:21 PM, Imperator wrote:

Parents seem generally content with letting kids believe in Santa Clause.

It would be pretty sad to find a 35 year old man waiting at his chimney for Santa.
But somehow I'm supposed to respect people who pray? Pff come on.

Like I said, sometimes the lie is more important than the truth.

Sorry, religion doesn't qualify. It's not one of those spur-of-the-moment white lies to get out of trouble, it's really a life-long bold-faced lie that has much bigger consequences for us all that just making people comforted in the face of adversity.

It's not my place to tell them to learn how to drive, I don't know why you feel it should be yours.....

Don't you think it's child abuse to force a kid to live like in the fucking middle ages??
To deny them modern education and luxuries?
"yeah there's a cure for cancer but we have to use a needle so that wasn't invented 500 years ago. Sorry TImmy".

The only reason this is protected is because they're "religious". What a crock of shit.

Yeah. They're also just like every sports fan ANYWHERE claiming their team's the best.

Here's how you can test for that: whichever team wins the game IS THE BEST.
The fuck do you test religion?

They're even stupider than sports fans, who are already pretty low.

Don't ever run for public office. "Top Secret" seems to be a term you're not familiar with either.....

I'm talking about school, news, science etc.
We're not going to pussy-foot around their sensitivities just because they're too childish to accept they believe in Santa Claus and the Boogeyman.

Getting pissed off because someone believes something that isn't right? Do you get pissed at kids for believing in Santa too?

These people are ADULTS who get government jobs, education jobs and sometimes even science jobs and they don't have the integrity to admit they're lying to their kids and themselves about things that are FACTS.

They're liars.
Who the fuck respects liars? Why should we get pissed at them? People get pissed at Holocaust deniers. Hey what do we care what they think, right? Let's leave them believe that and start a whole society around "the holocaust didn't happen" and in 200 years from now when no one remembers what's what, we can have some REAL fun!

Well I've never actually been approached by anyone other than a Mormon handing out cards.

I'd give him 20 bucks to sit his ass down in front of my computer as I search for flaws in his dumbass religion. See how he feels after that.
Aw I never have any cool religious visitors. Stupid apartment. Do they come to apartments? We have some costumed jews and muslims around Montreal. No mormons I guess.
Oh well.

At 7/17/08 08:23 PM, Imperator wrote: Completely unrelated, I just got done reading it, so I have no real comment yet, other than "interesting article".

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/scienc e/18law.html?pagewanted=1

that's just the watchmaker argument again.
"oh look at this thing that exists, it couldn't possibly have come about like that!".

Evolution is pretty much proven now, I bet you in the next 20 years, they're coming after physics saying we don't know anything, using the whole "where did the laws come from?" , "where did these 6 numbers come from?" etc.

er

At 7/17/08 09:34 PM, Petro355 wrote: I have a question:Do you people enjoy arguing?

I mean, seriously, there really is no point. There MAY be a God, there MAY not be a God, and the world MAY be taken over by evil flying monkies, but it does't really make a rat's shit worth of difference whether or not we can prove who is right and who is not right.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you're new around these parts.

Some of us have been making this point for years, but it does little to bring people off their high horses in terms of whether or not they believe in some higher power. In short, you get an A for effort, but nothing you or I can do will stop the endless cycle of arguments here.

At 7/18/08 02:27 AM, dySWN wrote: In short, you get an A for effort, but nothing you or I can do will stop the endless cycle of arguments here.

Here you go. Welcome aboard.

At 7/17/08 05:19 PM, Earfetish wrote:
You really need to focus on being less vague.

Yeah. I'm trying to be broad intentionally though, because the more specific you get with things like this, the less accurate it is.

How is the Bible an abstract look at the Earth or how is it even a valid way of looking at the world?

It's a book with stories and lessons? Like fairytales? Any religion is valid, because it's a choice. It's an act of sentience and must be respected. Whether it's completely accurate isn't really the point.

It's important that we, as discusionnaires, however, are as accurate as possible. Because these topics are so broad, you have to be sure that what you say is actually what you truly want people to think you mean. So let's look at abstract art. The real definition is probably different, but more or less it's a piece that represents something more than it appears to at first, correct? It may not even be aesthetically abstract, but conceptually as well, unless I'm mistaken.

So if you apply this to the bible. It easily turns into a book of fables. Situation + Result = Lesson

How is that not valid?

It's certainly important to consider religion when considering the Human condition but I fail to see how it's a representation of anything real at all. Y'know, except for the Human condition.

Our perception is our entire environment, how a group of individuals chooses to interpret that environment is important as you said.

How can you say it's not a representation of something real?

Would anyone follow the religion at all if they didn't think this exact thing?

It's not a scientific reality, of course, but it is a philosophical one. Maybe. If you want to go down that road...

Poxpower. Everything is nonsense.

Stop using moot terms.

Creation

Is there any evidence of anything being created from nothing.
Yes.

Virtual Particles and the Universe its self in the Big Bang.

Anything Else.
No.

Evolution
Is there any evidence of anything evolving.
Yes.

From the Universe to the smallest atom.

The Universe evolved from a single point to the universe we see today.
Galaxies evolved from Clouds of Dust, Irregular, Spiral, to eliptical galaxies
Stars evolved from the first Hydrogen stars to the Heavy stars found today.
Planets evolved around stars from Clouds of Gas and Dust.
Continents evolved on the Earth by continental drift.

Evolution is not a Religion.
Evolution is not a Hypothesis.
Evolution is not a Theory.
Evolution is a FACT.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

At 7/28/08 06:01 PM, Orion3 wrote: Evolution is not a Theory.

It is a theory, which obviously doesn't mean it's wrong or in process of being proven, though.

Devils Advocte

Creation is FACT.

ALL life on Earth was created THE SAME DAY. And were living AT THE SAME TIME.
ALL stars were created AT THE SAME TIME. And on THE SAME DAY.
ALL continents were created WHERE THEY NOW SIT.

ALL three of these Creation "Facts" have been disproven.

If all live was created on the same day. Then within 100 years of creation the normal lifespan of the animals would have created a layer of fossils so thick that Creation would be the only explanation. Why? Because it would have ALL life in it, In the same layer. This has never been found.

If all stars were created The Same Day. Then there shouldnt be any Novas and Supernovas yet. Why? (that quesion creationists hate) Because according to them the universe is only around 6000 years old.

IF all Continents were created where they now stand. Then the continents shouldnt be moving. And I'm not even going to get into the problem with matching stratta, fossils, and coastlines.

Lets seperate what has been proven from what is a theory.

Give me 1 creation idea proven to be FACT.

At 7/18/08 02:27 AM, dySWN wrote: I'm going to go ahead and guess that you're new around these parts.

Some of us have been making this point for years, but it does little to bring people off their high horses in terms of whether or not they believe in some higher power. In short, you get an A for effort, but nothing you or I can do will stop the endless cycle of arguments here.

Amen. When you attack a Christian for faith, especially a "born again" or some damn thing like that, they consider it a "test of faith", and you actually INCREASE their resolve to be religious, not lower it.

You push them further towards insanity, and becoming suiciding idiots, because martyring yourself is ALWAYS the ultimate test of faith in Abrahamic religions.

So please, don't try to convert people unless you really, REALLY know what the hell you're doing, because we've already got Jesus Camps training "holy warriors", and Pat Robertson; let's not push it......

The intention is good, but the "help" does the opposite. Just like trying to clean up red wine off the sofa just spreads the stain.....

Glad to see Heathenry still alive, I'll have to check that one later tonight....

At 7/28/08 06:39 PM, Imperator wrote:

At 7/18/08 02:27 AM, dySWN wrote: I'm going to go ahead and guess that you're new around these parts.

Some of us have been making this point for years, but it does little to bring people off their high horses in terms of whether or not they believe in some higher power. In short, you get an A for effort, but nothing you or I can do will stop the endless cycle of arguments here.

Amen. When you attack a Christian for faith, especially a "born again" or some damn thing like that, they consider it a "test of faith", and you actually INCREASE their resolve to be religious, not lower it.

You push them further towards insanity, and becoming suiciding idiots, because martyring yourself is ALWAYS the ultimate test of faith in Abrahamic religions.

So please, don't try to convert people unless you really, REALLY know what the hell you're doing, because we've already got Jesus Camps training "holy warriors", and Pat Robertson; let's not push it......

The intention is good, but the "help" does the opposite. Just like trying to clean up red wine off the sofa just spreads the stain.....

Glad to see Heathenry still alive, I'll have to check that one later tonight....

Well, as Richard Dawkins has recorded on his website, just voicing the alternative opinion, showing that it's there and alive, helps a lot. I'm not just talking about fence sitters jumping over, but people afraid to speak up, and people on the other side who are in complete ignorance as to what atheism is (I mean, there are STILL people who thinks atheists openly worhips the devil)

But come on dood... I know biblical sheeit is hard to believe I mean the savior frikken ressurected and Mary was a virgin mother? it's extremely hard to believe, but I would much rather believe in biblical terms I mean your very odd if you think a little cell probably smaller than a bouncy ball created all thats around us like the skys or frikken animals. I also strongly dout we came from fish and monkeys. Monkeys are brillient animals, but humans can be pretty frikken dumb and plus if the government lies to us about ufo sheeit and who ever knows aboot Ben Ladin... but back to subject if the gov. is lyin' to us aboot other sheeit why in the hell should we believe "their" study's of creation?

At 7/29/08 09:00 AM, FleshMaggot wrote: But come on dood...

I hereby give you a ramble award. It's a pink medal. :o

good point

Poxpower, after reading all these arguments from you and Imperator, I have really only one question: Why do you care?

At 7/28/08 06:39 PM, Imperator wrote: So please, don't try to convert people unless you really, REALLY know what the hell you're doing, because we've already got Jesus Camps training "holy warriors", and Pat Robertson; let's not push it......

Ultimately, Imperator, when one is convinced one has found the truth there forms an imperative to spread it. To teach the ignorant fools about their ignorance. Naturally, as there are many "truths" in this world we face conflict. I posit this imperative is formed either through unbridled arrogance (which is just a verbose term for the human condition, really) or stems from a social instinct to disseminate knowledge that has allowed for all our wonderful achievements.

In some cases however it could easily just be a response to the very real evils that arise from any dogmatic institution; unfortunately that does not excuse pointless bickering over the internet so I must return to my previous position.

At 7/29/08 12:23 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Poxpower, after reading all these arguments from you and Imperator, I have really only one question: Why do you care?

Don't you find it interesting that there's people out there who value wish-thinking over what is true?
And some who are too stupid and malicious to realize it?

How can we build a common peaceful world when the majority lives in a fantasy land where they are going to heaven and everyone else is wrong about everything?

At 7/29/08 01:35 PM, poxpower wrote: Don't you find it interesting that there's people out there who value wish-thinking over what is true?
And some who are too stupid and malicious to realize it?

There is no universal knowable truth, so we just need to believe in something (science is good, you dont even need to believe in it - the evidence is there, no faith required!) that will lead to the benefit of our race.

According to that, the best thing we can possibly do is get along with each other and advance in science. Who knows? A huge asteroid might threaten our existence someday, and if we are all living in huts, herding sheep and praying to the magic sky daddy (who we have never seen, but hes definately there lol), were pretty much fucked.

At 7/29/08 12:23 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Poxpower, after reading all these arguments from you and Imperator, I have really only one question: Why do you care?

Oposing opinions and intolerance?

At 7/29/08 01:35 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 7/29/08 12:23 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Poxpower, after reading all these arguments from you and Imperator, I have really only one question: Why do you care?

How can we build a common peaceful world when the majority lives in a fantasy land where they are going to heaven and everyone else is wrong about everything?

I believe we can build a common peaceful world if everyone kept their beliefs to themselves and never tried to preach to or convert anyone else. Theists need to discard the notion that they're the only ones supposedly going to Heaven. It's ridiculous for a person to have the mindset of "All I know is that I'm going to Heaven so fuck everyone else." I'm a theist but I've never had that mindset before, nor do I ever plan on having it. I've reconciled science into my faith, but I would never talk to anyone else about it unless they asked. I hate, HATE evangelism. Everyone who is religious that preaches needs to shut up and keep their personal beliefs out of the big picture.

At 7/29/08 02:56 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

I believe we can build a common peaceful world if everyone kept their beliefs to themselves

People don't keep beliefs to themselves, EVER EVER EVER.

First of all, they teach their kids. Ok already there, it's not "keeping it to themselves", they bringing the kids up into it.

Second, it's a completely ridiculous notion that everyone should be able to believe whatever they want and it's ok.
No, sorry, you have the right to it but we all have the right to LAUGH AT YOU if you still believe in the easter bunny and Santa. Ideas are meant to be SHARED.
Religions usually advocate closing your mind to anything that says the religion is wrong, and to just go one-way with the info, i.e. you try to convert as many people as you can without ever listening to what anyone who's not a convert has to say.

Fuck

them

At 7/29/08 03:46 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 7/29/08 02:56 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

First of all, they teach their kids. Ok already there, it's not "keeping it to themselves", they bringing the kids up into it.

I agree with you.

Second, it's a completely ridiculous notion that everyone should be able to believe whatever they want and it's ok.

Would it still be ridiculous if they keep their mouths shut?

No, sorry, you have the right to it but we all have the right to LAUGH AT YOU if you still believe in the easter bunny and Santa.

Well, sorry to say this, but you won't be able to laugh at people who believe because you wouldn't know who believed if they all KEPT QUIET about their beliefs. But you said they never keep quiet, so whatever. I'm just saying it would be glorious if they did shut up.

Religions usually advocate closing your mind to anything that says the religion is wrong, and to just go one-way with the info, i.e. you try to convert as many people as you can without ever listening to what anyone who's not a convert has to say.

Didn't I say that I condemn converting people? I know you're not singling me out but it just seems that you ignored the rest of my comment which specifically deals with this.

At 7/29/08 02:56 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

At 7/29/08 01:35 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 7/29/08 12:23 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Poxpower, after reading all these arguments from you and Imperator, I have really only one question: Why do you care?

How can we build a common peaceful world when the majority lives in a fantasy land where they are going to heaven and everyone else is wrong about everything?

I believe we can build a common peaceful world if everyone kept their beliefs to themselves and never tried to preach to or convert anyone else.

Hang on there skippy.

Firstly you seem to be kind of insinuating that just because you believe in something it makes you unscientific. However this is untrue.

Secondly attacking someone's position makes you more aware of their position and your own. For example I used to debate with Creationists on several websites. I learned more about what I believed and what I accepted purly because it encouraged me to learn more about it.

At 7/29/08 04:28 PM, Brick-top wrote:

At 7/29/08 02:56 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote:

At 7/29/08 01:35 PM, poxpower wrote:

At 7/29/08 12:23 PM, MultiCanimefan wrote: Poxpower, after reading all these arguments from you and Imperator, I have really only one question: Why do you care?

How can we build a common peaceful world when the majority lives in a fantasy land where they are going to heaven and everyone else is wrong about everything?

I believe we can build a common peaceful world if everyone kept their beliefs to themselves and never tried to preach to or convert anyone else.

Hang on there skippy.

Firstly you seem to be kind of insinuating that just because you believe in something it makes you unscientific. However this is untrue.

I know it doesn't make me unscientific, but poxpower appears to think the opposite, which is what led me to defend myself.

Secondly attacking someone's position makes you more aware of their position and your own. For example I used to debate with Creationists on several websites. I learned more about what I believed and what I accepted purly because it encouraged me to learn more about it.

I agree, which is why I debate with others whenever I see the chance. I'm not out to attack anyone.